                                                         

                   UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

             OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION

                             Public Meeting

                         Advisory Committee on

                     Occupational Safety and Health

                         8:07 a.m. to 4:19 p.m.

                         Tuesday, June 8, 2010

                     Conference Room N3437 A, B & C

                        200 Constitution Avenue

                            Washington, D.C.



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                        APPEARANCES ON BEHALF OF

          NATIONAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY

                          AND HEALTH (NACOSH)

                        U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

                        PUBLIC REPRESENTATIVES:

           MICHAEL SILVERSTEIN, MD, MPH

             Assistant Director

             Washington Division of

                 Occupational Safety and Health

             P.O. Box 44600

             Olympia, Washington  98504-4600

           LINDA RAE MURRAY, MD, MPH

             Chief Medical Officer

             Cook County Department of Health

             5344 South Hyde Park Boulevard

             Chicago, Illinois  60615

           ROY BUCHAN, Dr.PH, MPH

             Colorado State University

             Occupational Health Section, Department of

                Environmental & Radiological Health Sciences

             5715 Pleasant Hill Lane

             Fort Collins, Colorado  80526

           DENISE POUGET

             Assistant Fire-EMS Chief

             Alexandria Fire Department

             900 2nd Street

             Alexandria, Virginia  22314

                                 * * *



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                      MANAGEMENT REPRESENTATIVES:

           JIM SWARTZ

             Vice President Risk

             Intercontinental Hotel Group

             Three Ravine Drive, Suite 100

             Atlanta, Georgia  30346

           JOSEPH Van HOUTEN, Ph.D.

             Senior Director, Worldwide EHS

             Johnson & Johnson

             410 George Street

             New Brunswick, New Jersey  08901

                                 * * *

                        HEALTH REPRESENTATIVES:

           TIMOTHY J. KEY, MD, MPH

             Key Occupational Health Solutions

             1414 Overlook Road

             Homewood, Alabama  35209

           SUSAN RANDOLPH, MSN, RN, COHN-S, FAAOHN

             Clinical Assistant Professor

             Occupational Health Nursing Program

             University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill

             1700 Airport Road, CB #7502

             Chapel Hill, North Carolina  27599-7502

                                 * * *



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                         LABOR REPRESENTATIVES:

           WILLIAM BORWEGEN, MPH

             Director, Occupational Health and Safety

                Service Employees International Union,

                CTW, CLC

             1800 Massachusetts Avenue, Northwest

             Washington, DC  20036

           MARGARET SEMINARIO, MS

             Director, Safety and Health, AFL-CIO

             815 Sixteenth Street, Northwest

             Washington, DC  20006

                                 * * *

                        SAFETY REPRESENTATIVES:

           EMORY KNOWLES III, CSP, CIH

             Manager, Industrial Hygiene and Safety

             Northrop Grumman

             7323 Aviation Boulevard, MS 1401

             Baltimore, Maryland  21290

           PETER DOOLEY, MS, CSP, CIH

             LaborSafe

             6301 North Zeeb Road

             Dexter, Michigan  48130

                                 * * *



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                          COMMITTEE CONTACTS:

           DEBORAH PAGE CRAWFORD

             Designated Federal Officer

             Room N3641

           VENETA CHATMON (Travel)

             Room N3647

           SARAH J. SHORTALL (Committee Counsel)

             Room S4004

           PAUL J. MIDDENDORF, Ph.D, CIH

             CDC/NIOSH

             Office of the Director

             4676 Columbia Parkway

             Cincinnati, Ohio  45226

                                 * * *

                 SPEAKERS FOR OIL SPILL RESPONSE UPDATE

           DR. DAVID MICHAELS

             Assistant Secretary, OSHA

           DR. JOHN HOWARD

             Director, NIOSH

                             OTHER SPEAKERS

           KEITH GODDARD

           NALINI CLOSE

                                 * * *



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                                CONTENTS

                            MORNING SESSION

                                                        PAGE

           Welcoming Remarks & Introduction of Committee

             Dr. Silverstein ..........................    8

           Administrative Remarks

             By Ms. Close and Ms. Shortall ............   12

           Introductory Remarks and Discussion

             Remarks by Dr. Michaels ..................   23

             Comments and Discussion ..................   35

             Remarks by Dr. Howard ....................  121

             Comments and Discussion ..................  126

           Remarks and Discussion Re: Gulf Oil Spill

             Dr. Michaels .............................   49

             Dr. Howard ...............................   60

             Comments and Discussion ..................   71

             Continuing Comments and Discussion .......  147

             Work Group Established ...................  171

             Returning to Comments and Discussion .....  278

             Work Group Designees Chosen ..............  291

           Remarks and Discussion on Other Topics

             Remarks by Dr. Michaels ..................  212

             Comments and Discussion ..................  226

              Outreach to vulnerable and hard to

                  reach workers

              Promoting injury and wellness prevention

                  programs

              Safety incentive programs / Accurate

                  injury reporting

              Recordkeeping modernization / Injury

                  tracking

              Other issues



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           FINAL RECOMMENDATIONS BY COMMITTEE

           AS READ INTO THE RECORD:

              Proposed Preamble to Recommendations       361

                 Unanimously Accepted                 363

              Proposed Recommendation 1                  363

                 Unanimously Accepted                 367

              Proposed Recommendation 2                  365

                 Unanimously Accepted                 367

              Proposed Recommendation 3                  368

                 Unanimously Accepted                 370

           MEETING EXHIBITS ADDED TO

           THE RECORD BY MS. SHORTALL                     388

             Exhibit 1:  Agenda for June 8, 2010 NACOSH

                         meeting

             Exhibit 2:  The NACOSH membership roster as of

                         June 8th, 2010

             Exhibit 3:  The Federal Advisory Committee Act

             Exhibit 4:  The NACOSH charter filed on October

                         8th, 2008

             Exhibit 5:  29 CFR1912(a) OSHA regulations

                         governing NACOSH

             Exhibit 6:  DOL ethics rules for non-federal

                         employees

             Exhibit 7:  Reference documents on OSHA's

                         response to oil spill and cleanup

                         operations

             Exhibit 8:  Protection of workers involved in

                         oil spill recovery efforts in the

                         Gulf work group charge.



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       1           * * * P R O C E E D I N G S * * *

       2                  (WELCOMING REMARKS)

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Good morning.  Is the

       4   mic working for people here?

       5              Good morning.  I'd like to call this

       6   meeting of the National Advisory Committee on

       7   Occupational Safety and Health to order.

       8              My name is Michael Silverstein.  I'm

       9   chairman of the committee, and I'm Assistant

      10   Director for Workplace Safety and Health with the

      11   Washington State Department of Labor and

      12   Industries.

      13              I'd like to do a brief round of

      14   introductions, and then we have some

      15   administrative business to take care of before we

      16   get into the substance for the day.

      17              Let me say a couple of quick things,

      18   though, before we do introductions, just so people

      19   are oriented to some of the rules and procedures

      20   for those who have not been on this committee

      21   before.

      22              It is important for all of you to



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       1   understand that this meeting is on the record, it

       2   is being transcribed.

       3              In the event that there is something

       4   that you feel needs to be discussed off the

       5   record, let me know, and we can decide if that's

       6   appropriate or not.  Otherwise, everything will be

       7   on the record, and publicly available.

       8              When you speak, I would ask that you

       9   state your name and your affiliation again, for

      10   the record, and that you do it each time you

      11   speak.  Otherwise, somebody is going to have to

      12   try to memorize all the voices, and that would not

      13   be a friendly thing for us to do to them.

      14              This meeting is just a one-day meeting,

      15   so we're going to have to adjust our expectations

      16   based on what we can accomplish in one day.  My

      17   understanding is that the committee will be

      18   meeting more frequently than once a year, and so

      19   we will have time to dig into issues in more depth

      20   as we move along.

      21              Let's go around the room and introduce

      22   ourselves to each other.  I know that some people



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       1   know others, but probably nobody knows everyone

       2   around the table.  So, why don't we start with

       3   Bill Borwegen at the end of the table.

       4              DR. BORWEGEN:  I'm Bill Borwegen.  I'm

       5   with the Service Employees International Union.

       6              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Good morning.  My name

       7   is Joe Van Houten.  I'm with Johnson & Johnson.

       8              MR. SWARTZ:  Good morning.  Jim Swartz,

       9   with IHG.

      10              MR. KNOWLES:  Good morning.  Emory

      11   Knowles, Northrup Grumman Corporation.

      12              MR. DOOLEY:  Peter Dooley, LaborSafe

      13   Health and Safety Consulting.

      14              MS. CHATMON:  Veneta Chatmon.

      15              MS. CRAWFORD:  Deborah Crawford.  I am

      16   the Designated Federal official.

      17              MS. SHORTALL:  Good morning.  My name

      18   is Sarah Shortall.  I'm from the Office of the

      19   Solicitor, and I'm the counsel for NIOSH.

      20              MR. MIDDENDORF:  I'm Paul Middendorf.

      21   I'm the national liaison to the committee.

      22              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Good morning.



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       1   My name is Denise Pouget.  I'm an Assistant Fire

       2   Chief in Alexandria, Virginia, on the committee.

       3              DR. MURRAY:  Good morning.  My name is

       4   Linda Murray, and I'm from the Cook County

       5   Department of Health.

       6              MS. RANDOLPH:  Susan Randolph,

       7   University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill School of

       8   Public Health.

       9              DR. KEY:  Timothy Key, Key Occupational

      10   Health Solutions, Birmingham, Alabama.

      11              DR. BUCHAN:  Roy Buchanan, Colorado

      12   State University.

      13              MS. SEMINARIO:  Peg Seminario.  I'm

      14   Safety and Health Director for the AFL-CIO.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

      16              The main subject for this morning is

      17   going to be a discussion with Dr. Michaels, who is

      18   at the table already, and Dr. Howard, who is not

      19   here yet; but we have some important

      20   administrative business to take care of first, so

      21   that all of you understand the law under which

      22   this committee operates.



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       1              So Nalini Close from the Office of the

       2   Secretary is going to lead us through that

       3   discussion.

       4                (ADMINISTRATIVE REMARKS)

       5              MS. CLOSE:  Good morning.  Thank you

       6   for taking the time out of your schedules to

       7   assist the department by serving on NACOSH.

       8              My name is Nalini Close.  I am the

       9   Committee Management Officer here at the

      10   department.

      11              As the CMO, I am responsible for

      12   ensuring that the department's advisory committee

      13   operate in accordance with the Federal Advisory

      14   Committee Act, or FACA.  FACA was passed by

      15   Congress in 1972, to promote public participation

      16   and transparency in government, by -- while also

      17   limiting the undue access of special interests.

      18              To achieve this, FACA generally

      19   requires that committees exist for a limited

      20   duration, that meetings are announced in advance

      21   and open to the public, with public access being

      22   provided to committee records, that committee



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       1   membership must be fairly balanced with respect to

       2   the viewpoints represented when compared to the

       3   functions of the committee to be performed, and

       4   that members serve for a defined term, and that

       5   the committee's advice result from the independent

       6   judgment of the committee.

       7              NACOSH is a non-discretionary mandated

       8   by law advisory committee that is subject to FACA.

       9   In addition to the FACA requirements for each

      10   department sponsoring a federal advisory committee

      11   to have a committee management officer, each

      12   committee must also have a Designated Federal

      13   Officer, or DFO, who is responsible for the

      14   day-to-day operations and management of the

      15   committee.

      16              As you know, Deborah Crawford is the

      17   DFO for this committee.  Among other

      18   responsibilities, the DFO must be present at all

      19   committee meetings, may adjourn committee meetings

      20   when it is in the public interest to do so.  The

      21   DFO is also responsible for taking minutes at all

      22   meetings, which generally must be made available



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       1   for public inspection, after being certified by

       2   the Chair, within 90 days.

       3              In fact, the DFO is responsible for

       4   maintaining all committee records.  And with

       5   limited exemption, these records must be made

       6   available to the public as well.

       7              Additionally, the DFO may be called to

       8   serve as the committee's chair, and is also

       9   required to prepare the annual report on the

      10   committee's activities.

      11              FACA requires that all committees must

      12   be chartered, and the charter serves as the

      13   governing document for the committee.

      14              Among other things, the charter sets

      15   forth the committee's purpose, scope and

      16   membership plan.  Charters generally expire within

      17   two years and may generally be renewed.

      18              However, a committee cannot operate

      19   without an active charter on file with Congress.

      20              You should all have received a copy of

      21   NACOSH's charter with your appointment letters.

      22   The current charter for this committee expires in



                                                         15

       1   October of this year.

       2              I do urge you to review the charter to

       3   better understand how you can assist the

       4   department.  And should you have any questions,

       5   please contact Deborah.

       6              Just as charters expire within two

       7   years, committee members generally serve defined

       8   terms.  NACOSH members normally serve two-year

       9   terms at the pleasure of the secretary.

      10              As I mentioned, FACA requires that

      11   committee membership be fairly balanced in terms

      12   of the viewpoints represented when compared to the

      13   functions to be performed.

      14              The secretary has requested your

      15   service on NACOSH for your expertise, and the

      16   ability to represent the groups needed to achieve

      17   the balance necessary to provide advice to the

      18   Departments of Labor and Health and Human Services

      19   on the administration of the Occupational Safety

      20   and Health Act.

      21              Therefore, I urge you to keep this in

      22   mind when meetings are scheduled.  In the realm of



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       1   advisory committees, forums are generally

       2   insufficient, and the absence of even one member

       3   can impact balance which may undermine the work of

       4   the committee.

       5              To promote transparency, NACOSH

       6   meetings are generally open to the public and must

       7   be announced with an agenda in the Federal

       8   Register at least 15 days prior to the meeting

       9   date.

      10              Information regarding committees, their

      11   meetings, membership, costs and reports, can also

      12   be found on the government's public database for

      13   advisory committees, which is www.F-I-D-O --

      14   that's www.fido.gov.

      15              Because committee meetings must be

      16   announced in advance in the federal register and

      17   are open to the public, I urge you to refrain from

      18   discussing committee business during breaks from

      19   meetings or via e-mail.  And even in the meeting

      20   setting, please understand that the discussion

      21   must be limited to the announced agenda.

      22              The DFO or the committee's chair shall



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       1   guide the discussions to stay on point.

       2              By law, the agenda must be set by the

       3   department and not the committee.  Likewise,

       4   decisions to call meetings to USEP[phonetic]

       5   groups or anything else that requires the

       6   expenditure of federal funds must be made by the

       7   department.

       8              While the department values your

       9   participation here today, your role as a committee

      10   member does not entitle you to speak on behalf of

      11   the United States or the Department of Labor.

      12              Additionally, should you be approached

      13   by the press or members of the public regarding

      14   matters relating to your committee service, I ask

      15   that you contact Deborah for guidance as to how to

      16   handle.

      17              It is my understanding that you will be

      18   briefed by the Department's Office of the

      19   Solicitor on the applicable standards of conduct

      20   of the September NACOSH meeting.

      21              In the meantime, should you have any

      22   questions regarding your role, please follow up



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       1   with Deborah.  If she doesn't know the answer,

       2   she'll get it for you.

       3              The recommendations that you

       4   collectively work towards will be submitted to the

       5   secretary through OSHA.  The recommendations must

       6   be rendered from the committee's independent

       7   judgment and will receive due consideration from

       8   the department.

       9              We appreciate your willingness to

      10   assist the department and urge you to keep in mind

      11   what I have mentioned here today.

      12              While there are no civil or criminal

      13   penalties for failing to comply with FACA, there

      14   could be other consequences for non-compliance,

      15   such as the Department could be enjoined from

      16   using committee recommendations or face

      17   congressional scrutiny.

      18              I have covered a fair amount quickly.

      19   Should you -- you should have received a booklet

      20   on FACA with your appointment letter.  But if you

      21   need another copy, please contact Deborah, or if

      22   you have any questions, please let Deborah know



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       1   and she'll get in touch with me.  Thank you.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you, Nalini.

       3              Are there questions that anybody has?

       4              Sarah.

       5              MS. SHORTALL:  I'd like to add a couple

       6   of things --

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Again, names --

       8              MS. SHORTALL:  My name is Sarah

       9   Shortall.  I'm on the NACOSH council.

      10              I wanted to add a couple of things, and

      11   that is, although we do operate by FACA, OSHA has

      12   also established its own regulations for advisory

      13   committees.  The ones pertaining directly to

      14   NACOSH are in 29 CFR1912(a), and you've received a

      15   copy of that in your background materials today.

      16              Those regulations actually provide

      17   additional transparency, and additional procedures

      18   beyond what is the minimum requirement under FACA.

      19   So although we do comply with all FACA

      20   requirements, we will be going beyond them in

      21   certain regards.

      22              One of the things that we do that



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       1   enhances transparency is the public inspection

       2   process that we have is very open, because we put

       3   all materials from the NACOSH meeting into our

       4   public docket, which is available at

       5   www.regulations.gov.

       6              The docket for this entire year for

       7   NACOSH is OSHA-2010-0012.  So all you have to do

       8   is plug that information into the search key on

       9   regulations.gov, and you'll be able see all the

      10   materials in there.

      11              I will, during the course of the

      12   meeting, be marking certain items as exhibits that

      13   will be added into the record.  And in addition to

      14   that, everything that is given to us to put into

      15   the record, we will do so without any change.

      16              So if someone is going to be submitting

      17   something that would have personal information, we

      18   encourage you to not let us have information that

      19   could compromise your personal integrity or your

      20   personal safety and security.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you, Sarah.

      22              Any other comments or questions?



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       1              Thank you, Nalini.

       2              MS. CLOSE:  Thank you.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I would urge each of

       4   you to read through the rules for the committee,

       5   which Sarah just mentioned.

       6              There are a couple of things in the

       7   rules that I think are particularly relevant, one

       8   being that the committee can establish

       9   subcommittees, or work groups.  And we probably

      10   will do that by the end of the day, at least begin

      11   to do that.

      12              And also, at our request, the assistant

      13   secretary may engage experts or consultants to

      14   help us with our work.  And that may be something

      15   that's appropriate as well, depending on what the

      16   issues are.

      17              So I just ask you to keep those things

      18   in mind as we go through our discussion.

      19              I'd like to --

      20              MS. SHORTALL:  May I add one other

      21   thing?

      22              DR. MICHAELS:  Sure.



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       1              MS. SHORTALL:  Excuse me, sir.

       2              Sarah Shortall, NACOSH council.

       3              On the issue of subcommittees, not only

       4   is that permitted under OSHA's own regulations,

       5   but also under FACA.

       6              But there's one thing you have to

       7   understand about subcommittees.  They report back

       8   to DACOSH.  They don't report back, and they are

       9   prohibited from reporting back directly to the

      10   agency.

      11              So all official recommendations to the

      12   agency would come from this parent body, not from

      13   any subcommittee.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

      15              With that, I'd like to just jump into

      16   the substantive part of the agenda.

      17              Assistant Secretary Dr. David Michaels

      18   is with us this morning.

      19              John Howard, Dr. Howard, from NIOSH is

      20   expected, but he's been a bit delayed.

      21              So I think we'll start with some

      22   introductory comments from Dr. Michaels and



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       1   discussion that follows from that.

       2         (INTRODUCTORY REMARKS BY DR. MICHAELS)

       3              DR. MICHAELS:  Thank you,

       4   Dr. Silverstein.

       5              Thank you all, for volunteering your

       6   time to be on this very important committee.

       7   Speaking, I think for the entire Labor Department,

       8   we are very grateful for your input.

       9              I look around this room, I see hundreds

      10   of years of experience and wisdom in the field of

      11   occupational health.  And we are very grateful

      12   that you are willing to help us.

      13              Before I begin, also let me thank the

      14   staff here who is supporting this committee:

      15   Keith Goddard, Deborah Crawford from OSHA, Sarah

      16   Shortall from the Solicitor of Labor, and Paul

      17   Middendorf from NIOSH.  We're very grateful for

      18   your work on making this committee function so

      19   well, and I'm grateful for that.

      20              I'd like to spend a couple of minutes

      21   talking about the direction that OSHA is going.  I

      22   know it's been a while since this committee has



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       1   met, and it hasn't met since Jordan Barab, who is

       2   the Deputy Secretary, and I have come into office

       3   here.

       4              We're taking OSHA in new directions,

       5   continuing a lot of the good work that OSHA has

       6   been doing, and trying to go into new directions

       7   well.  So I thought we'd talk a little bit about

       8   that, and I think we'll give some context to this

       9   whole discussion today.

      10              We're guided by Secretary Hilda Solis's

      11   vision of good jobs for everyone.  When we see

      12   America, people with good jobs, we understand that

      13   a job isn't a good job if it's not a safe job.

      14   And our job at OSHA is to make sure that those

      15   jobs around the country, all parts of the country,

      16   all sectors, are good jobs, and that they're safe.

      17   And we work very hard on that.  So we're focusing

      18   in a number of different areas.

      19              The most obvious one, the one that gets

      20   the highest profile, obviously, is enforcement.

      21   We're trying to enhance our enforcement

      22   activities.  OSHA has offices around the country.



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       1   We have inspectors who get out to workplaces.

       2   We're looking at ways to have a bigger impact, and

       3   we look for your guidance in helping make that

       4   happen.

       5              We are very fortunate in that the

       6   budget that the President proposed and Congress

       7   gave us last year, that we are able to hire a

       8   hundred new inspectors.  And we'll, hopefully, be

       9   hiring more soon.

      10              We have recently increased our penalty

      11   structure, or changed our penalty structure, to

      12   allow us to have increased penalties that will go

      13   into effect some months from now.  We are still

      14   limited by the OSHA Act, which limits a serious

      15   violation to $7,000, but the way we calculate the

      16   actual citation for each violation will be

      17   increased shortly.

      18              In much of the country, OSHA

      19   enforcement is done by State plans, with whom we

      20   work very closely.  We have a new focus on looking

      21   at the State plans, trying to ensure that they're

      22   at least as effective as the OSHA program.



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       1              We have an ongoing audit program going

       2   on.  We have only completed one so far, the one in

       3   Nevada, but the audits of the other State plans

       4   are coming in shortly -- or coming in now, and we

       5   want to make sure that they are doing a good job

       6   as well.

       7              So within the area of enforcement,

       8   though, one of the things we've been thinking very

       9   much about, we hope that you'll think about some

      10   with us, is the question deterrence.

      11              I don't need to go through the

      12   statistics, but everybody knows that we don't have

      13   enough inspectors to visit every workplace on any

      14   regular basis.  And, certainly, some workplaces

      15   where we do go in and take a large staff of

      16   inspectors and spend a lot of time there, because

      17   they're very complex workplaces.

      18              So we're trying to think about ways

      19   that our inspections can have a stronger deterrent

      20   effect.  And that's high on our agenda, and we

      21   look to you for some advice on that sort of

      22   question.



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       1              In terms of compliance of systems, we

       2   hope to continue all of our good work in many of

       3   those areas.  But an area that we are very much

       4   focused on is reaching out to vulnerable and

       5   hard-to-reach populations, especially populations

       6   who don't speak English, because we know that

       7   workers who come from groups that don't speak

       8   English are vulnerable to injury and illness,

       9   because they are often in the worst jobs and the

      10   most dangerous jobs.  And all of our statistics

      11   show that.

      12              Hispanic workers' fatality rates are

      13   far higher than non-Hispanic workers.  Injury

      14   rates are higher.  We recognize that workers

      15   cannot be trained, if training is only done in

      16   English and they don't speak English.

      17              So one of the things we've done

      18   recently is reiterated to our enforcement officers

      19   that, when training is required to be provided,

      20   that training must be done in the language that

      21   workers understand.

      22              In April, we held a meeting in Houston.



                                                         28

       1   It was called the Action Summit on Latino Worker

       2   Health and Safety.  It was attended by about a

       3   thousand people, and a number of people that are

       4   here were there.

       5              It was a very powerful meeting where we

       6   heard stories of workers who really either didn't

       7   know their rights or weren't able to exercise

       8   their rights to a safe workplace.

       9              And we recognize this is a very

      10   important area for OSHA to address.  We're trying

      11   to look at ways to reach out to workers who are at

      12   an increased risk for injury and illness, and we

      13   try and reach them through non-traditional ways,

      14   through community organizations, through religious

      15   organizations, and through public service

      16   announcements.

      17              And, again, we could use your help in

      18   thinking about ways to reach these populations.

      19              We're also thinking about, going back

      20   to enforcement, targeting those employers who hire

      21   these workers.  Many of them are also small

      22   employers who may not be registered in the



                                                         29

       1   traditional databases that we use to go find -- to

       2   target our inspections, and that's an area we need

       3   to do some thinking about.

       4              The other area in compliance systems

       5   we're refocusing on is the focus on producing

       6   materials and training for workers.  OSHA has, in

       7   the past, done an excellent job producing

       8   materials for health and safety professionals, but

       9   it's our view that there are many other sources of

      10   information for health and safety professionals.

      11              Industrial hygienists, safety

      12   specialists, can look at the private sector for

      13   materials they need.

      14              No one's -- very few people are

      15   producing materials for workers.  So we're trying

      16   to refocus and produce educational training for

      17   workers, and thinking about that in the languages

      18   and literacy levels that workers speak and have.

      19   So that's a big focus for us.

      20              We are continuing with our Susan

      21   Harwood grants.  We've announced one set of

      22   grants.  We hope to do more training programs to



                                                         30

       1   reach out to workers and to employers to ensure

       2   that people know what their hazards are.

       3              We also would like to increase our

       4   focus on small business and compliance assistance

       5   in the President's 2011 budget.  There's a million

       6   dollars -- there's a request for a million dollar

       7   increase in our State consultation program.  It's

       8   the largest increase in many years.

       9              We recognize we would far prefer to

      10   have a small businessperson contact an OSHA

      11   consultation program and get help, before having

      12   an OSHA inspector arrive and have to issue

      13   citations.  We don't want to issue citations.  We

      14   prefer to prevent injuries and illnesses before

      15   they occur.

      16              We have a very ambitious regulatory

      17   agenda, and we publish this every six months.  If

      18   you look at the regulatory agenda, we are moving

      19   very quickly.  We hope to have our cranes and

      20   derricks standard out sometime this summer.  We

      21   have a number of other standards that are in the

      22   pipeline, moving very rapidly, given the



                                                         31

       1   traditional pace of OSHA regulations.  Though it's

       2   still, in my mind, much too slow.

       3              The cornerstone of the regulatory

       4   agenda is the injury and illness prevention

       5   program, and we hope to discuss that this

       6   afternoon as well.

       7              We recognize that to do a better job

       8   preventing injuries, fatalities and illnesses, we

       9   have to change the culture in the workplace.  We

      10   have to make safety and health a high priority

      11   across the country, and have employers look at

      12   safety and health not with the objective of

      13   meeting OSHA standards, but with the objective of

      14   eliminating hazards.

      15              And we believe that injury and health,

      16   this prevention program, is one of the ways to get

      17   there, and we'll be discussing that more this

      18   afternoon.

      19              We hope to modernize our record-keeping

      20   system, but not right now.  Many employers keep

      21   track of injuries and illnesses using paper and

      22   pencil.  We think that since we're in the decade



                                                         32

       1   of the 21st century, all employers should be

       2   moving to an electronic system and we hope to help

       3   get them there.  We'll talk about that this

       4   afternoon as well.

       5              And, finally, we are very much

       6   committed to an open, transparent government.  We

       7   want our stakeholders to be able to see what we do

       8   and why we do it.

       9              We're putting as much data as we can on

      10   the web so it can be accessed by stakeholders, by

      11   researchers, by the public.  So far, we've put up

      12   information on the web on fatalities, on the

      13   results of environmental monitoring done in many

      14   workplaces around the country, and also the

      15   citations and inspection results from -- I'm

      16   sorry -- and the injury and illness rates sent to

      17   us by tens of thousands of employers.

      18              In addition, we have a very strong

      19   focus on reaching out to the stakeholders in the

      20   public.  We've held a number of public meetings.

      21              In March we held a meeting called "OSHA

      22   Listens," where we spent a day -- senior staff



                                                         33

       1   spent a day listening to stakeholders who came

       2   forward, said these are our concerns, these are

       3   our priorities, here's what we think OSHA should

       4   do.  We plan to do more of these.

       5              Region 1 of OSHA actually did one of

       6   these locally.  We expect to do more of these as

       7   well.

       8              And we look at this meeting, and the

       9   continuing close work we do with this advisory

      10   committee as part of that, and we very much look

      11   forward to having your assistance and your input

      12   in many areas.

      13              We also hope to place ourselves very

      14   firmly in the scientific community, strengthening

      15   our ties with our sister agency NIEHS, National

      16   Institute for Environmental Health Sciences, with

      17   the public health and science of the community,

      18   because OSHA's decisions have to be based on

      19   science and -- practical science, but in science.

      20              So, again, let me say I'm very pleased

      21   you're here; I'm grateful for your assistance.  I

      22   hope to spend the entire day here.  There are a



                                                         34

       1   number of contingencies that may arise during the

       2   day, and we'll talk about them a little bit later.

       3   But unless I'm called away, I plan to spend the

       4   day with you, and I look forward to your advice to

       5   us.  Thank you.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you,

       7   Dr. Michaels.

       8              We have been joined by Dr. John Howard

       9   from NIOSH.

      10              And, Dr. Howard, we've just started

      11   with general introductory comments.  And I

      12   would -- if you've been able to catch your breath,

      13   I'll invite you to do the same thing on behalf of

      14   NIOSH.

      15              DR. HOWARD:  Okay.  Well, then,

      16   welcome.  Glad to be here, and sorry I was late.

      17   The Mall was a little wider than I thought this

      18   morning.

      19              I'm thrilled to be here and to tell you

      20   a little bit about what NIOSH is doing and be

      21   happy to do that at the appropriate time.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  If you'd like to make



                                                         35

       1   some, at least brief introductory comments, you

       2   can do it now, or you can --

       3              DR. HOWARD:  No, we'll wait.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  We can wait, at your

       5   choice.

       6              Are there questions, then, for

       7   Dr. Michaels?  I know that there are some specific

       8   topics that Dr. Michaels wanted to engage us in

       9   discussion about.  And we will let him raise those

      10   topics one at a time.

      11              But before that, are there specific

      12   questions, comments, responses to his initial

      13   thoughts?

      14              Yes.

      15              Again, I would remind people, names and

      16   affiliations.  Like I said --

      17               (COMMENTS AND DISCUSSIONS

      18               ON DR. MICHAELS' REMARKS)

      19              DR. BUCHAN:  Roy Buchan, Colorado State

      20   University.

      21              Dr. Michaels, I have been working in

      22   agricultural safety and health since 1973.



                                                         36

       1              You mentioned hard-to-reach workers.

       2              Agriculture ranks as the top, or

       3   second-most dangerous occupation in the United

       4   States.  OSHA has pretty much neglected

       5   agriculture over the years, most recently, because

       6   of the ten employee requirement.

       7              But I think you should know that 80

       8   percent of production in agriculture now is by

       9   five different companies.  Agriculture is becoming

      10   big business.

      11              And, hopefully, at some point, OSHA

      12   will begin to do enforcement in this sector, or

      13   some form of education or consultation.  That's

      14   from me personally.  I'm passionate about it.

      15              DR. MICHAELS:  If I could respond first

      16   by saying, I hope this isn't a dialogue between me

      17   and you.  But I want to make this you-all talking

      18   to me, and each other giving advice, but I can't

      19   help but respond.

      20              You're absolutely right.  OSHA has not

      21   focused on agriculture in a way that's

      22   commensurate with its importance in terms of



                                                         37

       1   injury and illness.

       2              It is something that we're certainly

       3   thinking about, and we'd be grateful for any

       4   advice that you could give us on ways to do that.

       5   It certainly is of great concern to us.  We're

       6   aware of the hazards and the burden of injury and

       7   illness among the farm workers.

       8              DR. BUCHAN:  I'd like to respond by one

       9   thing, because Dr. Howard's here.  NIOSH currently

      10   supports eight agricultural health and safety

      11   centers -- ten agricultural health and safety

      12   centers, at about a million dollars apiece.

      13              And that really is just a drop in the

      14   bucket to address research and outreach needs in

      15   that area.

      16              Maybe you could work together in that

      17   area.  And I'll shut up now.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg.

      19              MS. SEMINARIO:  Peg Seminario, AFL-CIO.

      20              First, let me thank for you the great

      21   work that you and Jordan Barab and the whole team

      22   at OSHA here has been doing in getting the agency



                                                         38

       1   back on track.

       2              And I thank Dr. Howard for his

       3   continued efforts in so many important areas.

       4              One really important issue, I think,

       5   for both agencies, you've gone through the areas

       6   of work that OSHA is focusing on, and it really is

       7   an incredibly ambitious agenda.  It's no secret

       8   that those of us in the labor movement thought

       9   that a lot of issues did not get addressed in

      10   recent years under the past administration, and

      11   there is a huge backlog of issues and demands that

      12   just haven't been met.

      13              And so I think what you'll hear from

      14   people around the table here, regardless of, you

      15   know, from where they come, is that there are a

      16   lot of unmet needs.

      17              One of the questions for

      18   Dr. Silverstein, and also for you, is, to what

      19   extent is it in the purview of this committee to

      20   look at resource issues?

      21              Because a limiting factor in all of

      22   this is the amount of money that is available to



                                                         39

       1   these agencies.  Setting, you know, priorities is

       2   obviously key.  But even, you know, within the

       3   current four walls of the NIOSH budget or the OSHA

       4   budget, it's really moving the pieces around.

       5              And, again, I know that, as a

       6   committee, we can't go and lobby.  But in terms of

       7   gathering information as to what is actually

       8   needed to address these issues, what would it

       9   take?

      10              If that is within the purview of the

      11   committee for asking that information and getting

      12   some sense of what would it take to actually

      13   engage in to move forward on some of these -- some

      14   of these initiatives?

      15              Because, I think, again, in all of

      16   these areas here, there are critical issues, there

      17   are critical needs, and there are huge resource

      18   issues that are associated with each of these

      19   initiatives.

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think that, as a

      21   general matter, there is nothing that precludes

      22   us, as a committee, from addressing resource



                                                         40

       1   issues.

       2              The practical question is how we might

       3   be able to do that in a way that would, in fact,

       4   be useful and productive.

       5              Other -- yes.

       6              MS. RANDOLPH:  Dr. Michaels, Susan

       7   Randolph, of University of North Carolina-Chapel

       8   Hill.

       9              One of the issues concerning to me is

      10   there's still a lot of workplace violence.  And I

      11   know that's been an issue that NIOSH has worked

      12   on, and also the Department of Labor.  And there

      13   have been a couple of incidents recently in North

      14   Carolina that sort of brings that back to mind.  I

      15   was sort of wondering where the agency is leaning

      16   toward this.

      17              DR. MICHAELS:  That's certainly a good

      18   question.  We've been meeting with stakeholders on

      19   this and looking at specific -- trying to move

      20   some specific citations forward, because there

      21   have been certain instances where preventable

      22   workplace violence has resulted in serious injury



                                                         41

       1   and in some cases death.  And I know that we've

       2   looked at some citations, and some state plans

       3   have actually moved forward beyond where we've

       4   gone on that as well.

       5              We have a workplace violence program

       6   and we're trying to develop that.

       7              There are a number of areas like this

       8   that have come up and we say, okay, how will we

       9   address this?  And, frankly, I'm hoping to do this

      10   within the context of the injury and illness

      11   prevention programs, because as each of these

      12   arises, we need to say, yes, we need to address

      13   this issue.

      14              And I think in reference to what Peg

      15   said, we have limited resources that take on all

      16   the areas that we need to do, so how do we

      17   incorporate into this?  Because we know that, you

      18   know, certain types of social service facilities

      19   need to have violence prevention programs because

      20   violence is endemic in those settings.

      21              And we know that workers in convenience

      22   stores in certain neighborhoods where there's a



                                                         42

       1   long history of robbery need to have violence

       2   prevention programs, or safety programs for their

       3   employees, because they're killed on a regular

       4   basis at these places.

       5              So how we do this, I think, has to be

       6   part of our general approach of shifting the

       7   burden of prevention to the employer and saying,

       8   how are you going to prevent these from occurring.

       9              And so we'd love your help doing that,

      10   as well.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill Borwegen, you

      12   had your hand up earlier?

      13              DR. BORWEGEN:  No, but I can make a

      14   brief comment.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Given the

      16   opportunity, you'll talk.

      17                       (LAUGHTER)

      18              DR. BORWEGEN:  Thanks.

      19              I think I would just echo really what

      20   Peg said.  I think all of us could go around the

      21   room and pick out our hazards that we're concerned

      22   about; we could all go around the room and pick



                                                         43

       1   out the sectors that we're concerned about.

       2              Health care, I don't have to tell you,

       3   you know, higher injury and illness rates in

       4   mining, manufacturing and construction.  OSHA

       5   continues to spend 85 percent of their time and

       6   energy, I believe, on manufacturing and

       7   construction.  I could be wrong on those

       8   statistics and maybe all statistics.

       9              I think we need to look at how we make

      10   the pie bigger.  I think we need to look at how --

      11   and then how we prioritize the very minuscule

      12   budget that these agencies have.  And I think to

      13   the degree that this committee can provide that

      14   kind of input to these agencies, I think that

      15   would be very valuable.

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me just pick up

      17   on the initial point you made, which is that each

      18   of us brings to the table particular interests,

      19   both in general, but also specifically, interests

      20   regarding what OSHA might do more of or better.

      21   And I think it's perfectly appropriate for us to

      22   get those kinds of issues and thoughts on the



                                                         44

       1   table.

       2              At the same time, there are issues that

       3   OSHA and NIOSH are going to have that they would

       4   like help from the committee in addressing.  And I

       5   think that one of our chores, as we get deeper

       6   into this discussion, is looking for areas where

       7   there's overlap, so that we can begin to focus on

       8   a relatively small number of areas that we can

       9   really dig into, and make some productive, helpful

      10   recommendations about.

      11              But I think it's going to take us a

      12   little while to get some of the issues out on the

      13   table, and I'm perfectly comfortable with just

      14   having a completely open floor for a while,

      15   understanding that we may be, for at least some

      16   period of time, drifting from topic to topic.  But

      17   we'll begin to focus in as the day goes on.

      18              Emory, did you have something?

      19              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles, Northrop

      20   Grumman Corporation.

      21              Very interested in the injury and

      22   illness protection program proposal.  That



                                                         45

       1   proposal is probably going to have a more

       2   significant impact on American workers than any

       3   other piece of legislation out there right now.

       4              You indicated that the focus of that

       5   program certainly is going to need to entail the

       6   identification and elimination of hazards in the

       7   workplaces.

       8              So that end, I'm very interested in

       9   understanding what the agency plans to do relevant

      10   to enhancement of qualifications of the compliance

      11   officers that are going to be enforcing the

      12   regulation.

      13              In the past, the agency supported

      14   continuing education for compliance officers; the

      15   agency clearly supported achievement of

      16   professional qualifications, such as the certified

      17   safety professional designation, the certified

      18   industrial hygienist designation.  So I'd like to

      19   get a little feel for that.

      20              And then the other side of that coin,

      21   if you're going to offer into -- injury and

      22   illness prevention programs, it's a very complex



                                                         46

       1   process.  As most of us probably at the table and

       2   in the audience know, California, a number of

       3   years ago, implemented that requirement.

       4              We've adopted that requirement, for

       5   example, within my company, and every one of our

       6   locations has to have an injury and illness

       7   prevention program.  It's pretty complex to put

       8   those together.

       9              So the second part of my question is:

      10   What role do you see for highly qualified

      11   professionals such -- again, as certified safety

      12   professionals, certified industrial hygienists, in

      13   developing those programs for employers who

      14   probably don't have qualified professionals to be

      15   effectively implementing that type of program?

      16              Sorry for the long-winded --

      17              DR. MICHAELS:  No, that's fine.  I

      18   think I'll answer parts of it.

      19              In general, you know, whether or not we

      20   move forward with injury and illness prevention

      21   program, I certainly support the continued

      22   education and certification of OSHA professionals.



                                                         47

       1              I think it's very important that our

       2   OSHA field staff are recognized to be highly

       3   qualified and credentialed, and so I know that

       4   OSHA has in the past made it very clear under

       5   Assistant Secretary Henshaw that we encourage OSHA

       6   staff to go on to CIH degrees, certified safety

       7   specialist degrees, safety professional degrees,

       8   and I certainly plan to continue that.

       9              I know there was a period where that

      10   was more dormant, let's say, that program.  And I

      11   think I certainly -- I certainly support that.

      12              In terms of how training of our

      13   professionals and outside professionals get

      14   involved with injury and illness prevention

      15   programs, we're just beginning down that road.

      16              We actually, in fact, just had our

      17   first stakeholder meeting this last week and this

      18   issue was raised.

      19              And so, really, let me turn this

      20   around, and we'll get to this afternoon, I hope to

      21   get your input in, in what resources you think

      22   we'll need and what professional training our



                                                         48

       1   people will need, and how our relationship should

       2   change with the industrial hygiene and safety

       3   professional community to make this happen most

       4   successfully, and maybe we can get to that this

       5   afternoon.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Are there questions

       7   or comments with regard to David Michaels'

       8   introductory statement?

       9              We could do one of two things here.

      10   The agenda indicates that this morning, early on,

      11   that Dr. Michaels would give us an update on oil

      12   spill response.

      13              We could -- I would ask that the two of

      14   you, Dr. Michaels and Dr. Howard, we could either

      15   do that, or, you know, we can have Dr. Howard give

      16   some introductory comments at this point.

      17              UNKNOWN VOICE:  I have some oil

      18   comments.

      19              DR. MICHAELS:  Let's dive into the

      20   gulf, then.

      21                       (LAUGHTER)

      22                 (INTRODUCTORY REMARKS



                                                         49

       1                   ON GULF OIL SPILL)

       2              DR. MICHAELS:  I'll give you some

       3   comments.  Dr. Howard actually has recently

       4   returned from the Gulf and I'll be heading back

       5   down there tonight.  So I think we have -- I will

       6   try to limit my comments to give you some

       7   background, because we are really looking for your

       8   thoughts, and less your questions, but your

       9   suggestions to us.

      10              I can give you a little bit of

      11   background as to what's going on down there, from

      12   the safety and health point of view.

      13              Oil spill workers, as you know, are on

      14   the front lines of the Nation's response to this

      15   oil spill disaster.  At this time, there are over

      16   13,000 cleanup workers employed by BP or its

      17   contractors, in addition to several thousand

      18   volunteers working as well.

      19              There are 1700 boats supporting the

      20   response operation.  And there are more than 1800

      21   federal employees directly involved in the cleanup

      22   operation over four states.  And these numbers are



                                                         50

       1   only -- will only rise in the immediate future.

       2              Depending on their jobs, these workers

       3   can face hazards from heat, falls, drowning,

       4   fatigue, loud noise, sharp objects.  We are

       5   concerned about bites from insects, from snakes

       6   and other wild species native to the Gulf Coast

       7   area.

       8              Workers may also face exposure to crude

       9   oil, to weathered oil, to oil constituents and

      10   byproducts, to dispersants, to industrial cleaning

      11   products and other chemicals used in the cleanup

      12   process.

      13              OSHA and NIOSH are providing proactive

      14   vigorous leadership to ensure that the workers are

      15   protected from all hazards.

      16              We're working as part of the

      17   coordinated federal response, which includes the

      18   Coast Guard and other government agencies, to

      19   address the health in the environment.  And we're

      20   working with BP to ensure that the workers are

      21   protected from these hazards in their cleanup

      22   work.



                                                         51

       1              We're working in a couple different

       2   areas, closely with NIOSH and with the National

       3   Institute for Environmental Health Sciences.  It's

       4   our job to ensure that appropriate training is

       5   provided to workers that BP and its contractors

       6   are hiring to help clean up the oil.

       7              We've been -- OSHA personnel were

       8   deployed to the Gulf the weekend of April 26th.

       9   That's the first week I went down there as well.

      10              Since then, OSHA personnel have been

      11   deployed to all 17 staging areas in Louisiana,

      12   Mississippi, Alabama and Florida.  We're on the

      13   ground, monitoring worker health and safety, and

      14   assessing whether BP and its contractors are

      15   providing appropriate worker health and safety

      16   protections.

      17              In coordination with the Coast Guard,

      18   OSHA staff are also aboard near-shore vessels.

      19   They're doing booming, skimming operations, at

      20   in situ -- nearer the in situ burning operations.

      21              And our personnel are actually

      22   stationed on offshore vessels for longer periods



                                                         52

       1   in all those places doing environmental

       2   measurement, as well as observing safety

       3   practices.

       4              Every day between 20 and 25 OSHA

       5   compliance officers travel to all staging areas to

       6   ensure workers are protected.

       7              We're also in the boats, as I said.

       8              On April -- on May 6th, a team from

       9   OSHA's health response team based in Salt Lake

      10   City arrived to provide technical support and do

      11   additional work -- environmental monitoring.

      12              So as of today, we visited somewhere --

      13   we've made over 600 site visits, some announced,

      14   some unannounced, in all the staging areas.

      15              What do we do when we get to these site

      16   visits?  Well, we talk to workers.  We talk to

      17   supervisors.  We observe what's going on.  We do

      18   measurements.

      19              When we find safety problems on the

      20   site visit or when we learn about them from

      21   workers, we immediately bring them to the

      22   attention of BP or its contractor and make sure



                                                         53

       1   they're corrected immediately.

       2              We also raise those same concerns

       3   through the unified command so they're recorded

       4   and addressed across the entire response area.

       5              One of our objectives is to assure that

       6   workers are provided free-of-charge appropriate

       7   personal protective equipment, such as boots,

       8   gloves, and whatever else they need.

       9              In fact, yesterday, we were told of a

      10   report where a subcontractor was charging workers

      11   for their protective equipment.

      12              We immediately went to the site.  We

      13   talked to the subcontractor, we talked to BP.  We

      14   informed the Coast Guard.  It was immediately

      15   addressed.  The workers will be reimbursed.  And

      16   there will be a public announcement made and an

      17   apology given to make sure this doesn't happen

      18   again.

      19              We have a number of very significant

      20   concerns.  We're obviously concerned about

      21   injuries in general.  We're concerned about the

      22   effect of heat.



                                                         54

       1              And we have a number of -- a

       2   significant number of heat stress cases that have

       3   occurred, people being taken to medical facilities

       4   or just treated immediately in place, where people

       5   are working in very hot conditions.

       6              We're concerned about long hours.  It's

       7   our understanding that 12-hour days are not

       8   uncommon.  We've seen advertisements for --

       9              Actually, in one case, there was an

      10   advertisement placed by a contractor for a parish

      11   that was given money by BP to hire their own

      12   cleanup workers.  They advertised jobs are

      13   available, $12 an hour.  14 hours a day, 7 days a

      14   week, would be the work hours.

      15              We are concerned about that.  And we've

      16   raised it with BP and with the Coast Guard.  BP

      17   actually has a fatigue management program.

      18              We are working to make sure that proper

      19   controls are implemented, because I don't need to

      20   tell this group, working long hours increases the

      21   risk of injury, working long hours also increases

      22   the risk of heart attack.



                                                         55

       1              There are a number of good

       2   epidemiologic studies on this.  There's some very

       3   powerful studies by researchers at Alcoa, who

       4   showed that workers who work, you know, in excess

       5   of 60 hours a week are at far greater risk of

       6   injury than workers who work 40 hours a week.

       7              As workers are working in hot

       8   conditions for long hours in unfamiliar settings,

       9   we are concerned about their health and safety, so

      10   this is an issue we're looking at.  We're,

      11   obviously, very concerned about heat.  I've talked

      12   about that before.

      13              When we see -- when we go to staging

      14   areas or the cleanup areas, we insist there's

      15   plenty of hydration, time for workers to get

      16   hydrated, shade to work in, and work schedules

      17   that give them enough time to take breaks so

      18   they're not overcome by the heat.

      19              We're very much concerned about

      20   chemical exposures.  And this is, obviously,

      21   something that it's on all of our minds.  Oil puts

      22   out a number of volatile chemicals.  The



                                                         56

       1   dispersants are being sprayed in the water.

       2   Workers are exposed -- who are directly involved

       3   in spraying dispersants, but also cleanup workers

       4   and workers on the water can be exposed as well.

       5              So we are doing regular monitoring in

       6   as many places as we can get to, to figure out

       7   what levels of chemicals workers are exposed to.

       8              Currently, most of the exposures are

       9   primarily to weathered oil.  And what we found is

      10   that this weathered oil is putting out very low

      11   levels, if at all, of organic compounds.  The

      12   volatiles have left the oil by the time it gets to

      13   the shore, and people are working with it in terms

      14   of cleanup.

      15              But we still are very concerned, and we

      16   are particularly concerned about workers on boats,

      17   so we've gone out on a number of vessels in an

      18   opportunity to try to measure what's going on.

      19              There are a number of different tasks

      20   that are done by workers on these boats.  They

      21   pick up booms, which is contaminated with oil.  In

      22   some cases, there are jobs called sheen busters



                                                         57

       1   who go out, their job is to essentially take their

       2   boat into areas and the boat mechanically stirs up

       3   the water/oil, perhaps disperses a mixture,

       4   because that helps the oil and the materials

       5   evaporate.

       6              That's what we're doing, an analysis of

       7   exposures in these situations as well.

       8              We are analyzing the soup of some crude

       9   oil, oil byproducts and dispersants to see what

      10   its constituents are, and then we're doing

      11   various -- we're looking at how people could be

      12   exposed in different situations.

      13              We're heating it, for example, to see

      14   if that soup puts out a different sort of

      15   chemicals, because we know there will be

      16   situations where that soup is heated up, either by

      17   the sun or by spraying of hot -- of steam cleaning

      18   devices.

      19              We are very concerned about respiratory

      20   protection.  And we have a matrix that at this

      21   point will tell us, given the situation, what sort

      22   of protective equipment should be provided.



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       1              If we find chemical exposure levels

       2   starting to be of any sort of worry, we'll move

       3   people to respirators.  Our concern is that if we

       4   require respirators, it will be difficult for some

       5   workers to wear them.  And we know the

       6   respirators -- working all day long in a

       7   respirators, in hot conditions, increases their

       8   risk of illness as well.

       9              Respirators can cause significant

      10   strain on the heart and lungs.  We have workers

      11   who have signed up for this, not necessarily

      12   chosen for their fitness, and it will be a very --

      13   if we move to respirators, we'll have to monitor

      14   the situation very carefully, but we will not

      15   hesitate to move to respirators, you know, if

      16   required.

      17              If we do move to respirators, we'll

      18   require a respiratory protection program.  OSHA

      19   has regulations on that.  That will require

      20   medical examinations, fit testing, and training on

      21   the care and use of respirators.  And we're

      22   prepared to do that.



                                                         59

       1              But currently, as I said, because of

       2   potential health problems associated with

       3   respirators, and the high heat and humidity

       4   conditions, and the exposure levels that we've

       5   measured along with the levels measured by BP and

       6   the EPA, we don't think that's necessary at the

       7   moment.

       8              But should that hazard characteristic

       9   change, we will immediately re-adjust our training

      10   and worker protection requirements.

      11              We have already changed our training

      12   requirements at the beginning, based on our

      13   history with other disasters.  We recommended four

      14   hours of training for all workers involved in

      15   cleanup, as long as they're exposed just to

      16   weathered oil.

      17              We've since seen that there is some

      18   workers who have a much heavier exposure to this

      19   weathered oil, when they're bringing in the booms,

      20   and we've said they now need 8 hours of training.

      21   And BP has already responded and that has already

      22   taken place, is my understanding.



                                                         60

       1              So this is where we are.  There are a

       2   number of other things.  I think John can talk a

       3   little bit about some of the important work NIOSH

       4   is doing and the registry of workers.  We're

       5   working very closely together.

       6              We're interested in your comments, your

       7   thoughts on ways we could do this differently, we

       8   could do this better, other issues we should be

       9   thinking about.

      10              I'll pass this on to Dr. Howard.

      11              DR. HOWARD:  Sure.  Thank you.

      12              The four areas that NIOSH is working in

      13   is, one, rostering; two, data; three, HHE; and

      14   four, toxicity.  So let me just explain a little

      15   bit about those four areas.

      16              We don't use the word "registry."

      17   Registry has a specific legal meaning, and only

      18   the administrator of ATSDR has the legal authority

      19   to put a registry together in our world.

      20              So what we've done is, from the

      21   experience that we have, which we do not want to

      22   repeat following 60,000 people in New York whose



                                                         61

       1   exposures we could not prevent, and, hence, we

       2   have to follow them for chronic health effects.

       3   We certainly want to prevent health effects from

       4   occurring in the Gulf.  We, at NIOSH and CDC, do

       5   not want to follow another 60,000 people for

       6   chronic health effects.

       7              So what we're doing, and one of the big

       8   lessons that we learned in the World Trade Center

       9   is that we had no idea who was actually out there

      10   and what they were doing.

      11              So we have begun rostering all of the

      12   response workers.  That involves sort of a

      13   two-stage process.

      14              The first stage, since the cleanup

      15   started before we became fully engaged, is we have

      16   to go around to all of the places where cleanup

      17   workers are currently engaged.

      18              And then, we need to have them,

      19   convince them to fill out a voluntary demographic

      20   form and a job analysis form, so that we know who

      21   they are and where we can find them.

      22              And then, the second phase is rostering



                                                         62

       1   at training centers.  So for folks that are coming

       2   onto the cleanup crews, at the time that they are

       3   trained, even before they are trained, they will

       4   be rostered in our system.

       5              We then enter all of that data into a

       6   database in Cincinnati.  So we will have something

       7   that we never had in the World Trade Center.  We

       8   will have a database of cleanup workers.

       9              The data issue, the second prong, is

      10   there is a lot of data being collected.  There's

      11   data, as Dr. Michaels mentioned, from EPA.

      12   There's data from BP contractors.  There's Coast

      13   Guard folks that are collecting data.  There may

      14   even be parishes that are collecting data.

      15              So we're trying to look at that data

      16   and put it into a generalized database so we can

      17   analyze it, and figure out where things are

      18   happening.

      19              Some of that data, if you look on some

      20   of the websites, it's very unclear as to where

      21   that data was collected or under what

      22   circumstances, what kind of sampling strategy was



                                                         63

       1   used, et cetera.  Is it area data?  Is it personal

       2   data?  Sometimes it's really hard to tell.

       3              The third prong is, obviously, we need

       4   our own data.  As Dr. Michaels mentioned, OSHA

       5   needs their own data.  We need our own data.

       6              So we received a request from BP

       7   following the illnesses in seven workers last

       8   week, or the week before, who were on these

       9   vessels of opportunity, we received an HHE request

      10   from BP to go out and look at the situation.

      11              So we were actually quite pleased,

      12   because that gave us the ability to do not only

      13   exposure profiling, hazard assessment, medical

      14   evaluation, and monitoring.

      15              So on that issue of exposure profile, I

      16   think, you know, what Dr. Michaels mentioned is --

      17   needs to be delineated a little further, because

      18   my concerns, and I'd like to hear what you have to

      19   say about this, is there really are some

      20   remarkably different exposure profiles.

      21              There are people at the source where

      22   the column of oil, crude oil, is coming to the



                                                         64

       1   surface.

       2              Now, my understanding is that BP has

       3   decided to use dispersant at depth, and perhaps

       4   before the column actually reaches the surface of

       5   the ocean.  So it may be a mixture of crude and

       6   dispersant at that point.  There are people there

       7   at that location.

       8              Then there are surface control vessels,

       9   people who are on large ships between the source

      10   and somewhere near the shore.  And those folks are

      11   burning, booming, you know, whatever, at that

      12   time.  So that's another exposure profile.

      13              And then there's this third exposure

      14   profile, these vessels of opportunity, as

      15   Dr. Michaels mentioned, that seem to have this

      16   task of sheen busting, of driving their fishing

      17   vessels, et cetera, that are idled because of the

      18   fishing moratorium, through the sheen to again

      19   mechanically make it smaller.

      20              Personally, it doesn't seem to be

      21   working.

      22              But, at any rate, that's their task.



                                                         65

       1   And from that group arose the seven folks who

       2   became ill.

       3              That is the focus of our current HHE.

       4   But we're certainly, you know, happy to receive

       5   other requests for other exposure profiles.

       6              The fourth exposure profile is the

       7   shoreline workers, people that you see on TV,

       8   where they're usually very well equipped, thanks

       9   to OSHA's work, in boots and gloves, unlike

      10   reporters who will pick up crude and mush it in

      11   their hands to show the camera.

      12              Now, as I told Rich Besser of ABC News

      13   yesterday when I talked to him, I said, Rich,

      14   please, put on a glove and try to teach people

      15   that when they're walking along the beach in

      16   Pensacola, don't let the little kids pick up the

      17   little tar things and roll them around in their

      18   hands.

      19              So be that as it may, the shore workers

      20   are seemingly well protected.  And OSHA, I think,

      21   has done a tremendous job in that area.

      22              And then the last thing which we at CDC



                                                         66

       1   are concerned about is community exposure, okay?

       2   That's not something that OSHA and NIOSH, per

       3   se -- but it is something of great interest to the

       4   CDC.

       5              So in that exposure profile issue,

       6   we're only focusing right now on these vessels of

       7   opportunity.  But these other exposure profiles we

       8   need to look at very carefully, because I think

       9   there is a hierarchy of exposure going on here,

      10   and we need to get where -- to the exposure where

      11   it's most significant.

      12              The hazard issues Dr. Michaels

      13   mentioned.  The one that I think we're all

      14   concerned about, if you've been there, and even

      15   not doing any work, but just walking alongside the

      16   folks who are doing the work, the tremendous heat

      17   stress, the heat index sometimes exceeding 100.

      18   The fatigue issues, we just put on our web site

      19   yesterday, some guidance about fatigue because

      20   obviously, you know, working 14 hours a day, 7

      21   days a week just strains the biological organism

      22   beyond.



                                                         67

       1              The issue of the volatile organic

       2   compounds, we all know the issues related to acute

       3   exposure.  You know, personally, we use a lot of

       4   hydrocarbons in our life and we know what they

       5   smell like and we know what happens.

       6              There's a lot of literature on that

       7   issue, and we are collecting our own data on that.

       8              The VOCs come from the crude, they come

       9   from the oil dispersants, which again are other

      10   types of hydrocarbons.  They come from other

      11   hydrocarbons that are used to clean the hulls of

      12   the boats, et cetera.

      13              So we're doing area monitoring, and

      14   personal monitoring.  And we are considering

      15   issues related to biomonitoring, which is under

      16   discussion for us.

      17              In terms of respiratory protection,

      18   this is probably the issue that I am most

      19   concerned about getting a good handle on.  And I

      20   think that's where we probably need advice from

      21   anybody who can offer it.

      22              There certainly are odors associated



                                                         68

       1   with hydrocarbons.  You know, you can drive by a

       2   well, and smell things.  And there are charcoal

       3   impregnated in 95s that are for odor nuisance type

       4   of things.  And there are human beings that span a

       5   continuum of effect.

       6              So you can have one person who can get

       7   nauseous from such a smell and, you know, another

       8   person is unaffected at all.

       9              Now, if I was an oil rig worker, you

      10   know, I would imagine that going out there the

      11   first week, I would have a lot of sensitivity to

      12   hydrocarbon odors, but somebody who may work there

      13   a number of months or years or whatever may not.

      14              So there's human variability in

      15   people's response to just plain odors, way below

      16   health detriment thresholds.  So that issue of an

      17   odor resistant -- odor nuisance type respirator

      18   versus a health protective respirator.  That

      19   really is the issue.

      20              Obviously, as Dr. Michaels said, you

      21   know, we don't want to put people in health

      22   protective respirators unless there is



                                                         69

       1   significant -- unless there's exposure that we

       2   have determined by evidence, because the balancing

       3   of stressing the organism, which is under

       4   tremendous heat stress issues, and as we know,

       5   there is no medical fit thing going on there,

       6   fitness for duty, in terms of the cleanup worker

       7   cadre.

       8              So it's an issue that I think is very

       9   complicated and we need more data.

      10              But the thing that I'm concerned about

      11   is in these higher exposure profiles, I think that

      12   there, there may be a clear need.  And we need to

      13   establish that need and go forward.

      14              Clearly, with regard to community

      15   exposure, this is something that CDC is looking at

      16   with EPA.

      17              The last issue I would raise is also a

      18   complicated one, and it really -- unfortunately,

      19   we have very little evidence in this area, is the

      20   chronic effect of exposure to VOCs and crude.

      21              We just don't have a lot of literature,

      22   medical literature on what happens to a



                                                         70

       1   population, either of cleanup workers or a

       2   community exposed to crude oil spills.

       3              If you look in the world's literature,

       4   there are precious few studies, but that is an

       5   issue.  And if you listen to folks that appear on

       6   the TV, they will say, you know, there are chronic

       7   effects from VOCs.

       8              Now, we've chased down every one of

       9   those, including, you know, Dr. Gupta's Sunday

      10   report trying to find, you know, where is the

      11   source of this information?  Largely, it's

      12   unpublished.

      13              And so that issue of the chronic

      14   effects is a really difficult one, and I would

      15   suggest that, the respirator issue, and possibly

      16   biomonitoring, are ones we are struggling with

      17   now.

      18              As I told ABC yesterday, this is an

      19   evolving situation, so we're reassessing every

      20   hour, every day, to see what kind of information

      21   we have.

      22              So with that, I'll close, to say that



                                                         71

       1   the House is having an education -- the education

       2   Labor Committee is having a hearing on the 16th,

       3   and the Senate health committee is having a

       4   hearing on the 15th on this issue, so we'll be

       5   having opportunities to again inform folks of what

       6   we're doing.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

       8              Questions or comments?

       9              Bill?

      10                (COMMENTS AND DISCUSSION

      11                ON GULF OIL SPILL ISSUE)

      12              DR. BORWEGEN:  Bill Borwegen, NCIU.

      13              So, I just want to start out by saying

      14   that a lot of those exposures could have been

      15   prevented.

      16              You know, we don't disagree on much,

      17   but I wanted to put my feet into the boots of one

      18   of these workers that's doing the cleanup work,

      19   and as if I was applying for one of these jobs,

      20   and I was thinking of the questions that a worker

      21   would want to ask.

      22              And I would want to know, like,



                                                         72

       1   obviously, they need the money, but I would also

       2   want to know, can I -- can I reduce my hours?  I

       3   mean, do I have to work these mandatory hours?

       4              California has a heat stress standard.

       5   Would I benefit from the application of that heat

       6   stress standard?  Or should there be an OSHA ETS

       7   on heat stress for this situation?

       8              Where are my toilet facilities?  Is

       9   that something that people on the beach have

      10   access to, toilet facilities?

      11              How often do I have a rest break?  Is

      12   it based on the temperature?  Is it based on my

      13   level of fatigue?

      14              So these are the kind of questions I

      15   think that maybe the government could provide

      16   guidance.

      17              And it seems like BP is bending --

      18   well, I don't know if this is the case or not, but

      19   it seems like they're being relatively responsive

      20   to requests that we make.  I think we need to make

      21   more requests in this frame of reference.

      22              And even, you know, I don't know,



                                                         73

       1   astronauts have been wearing them for 40 years.  I

       2   mean, are there cool vests that workers -- and,

       3   you know, what is the quantity of cool vests that

       4   are available in the marketplace domestically and

       5   worldwide, if we, for instance, provided -- what

       6   is the feasibility of providing people with this,

       7   or is this still space age, in concept, to use

       8   these in a wide scale.

       9              So these are the kind of -- I don't

      10   know if you -- I can remind you what the questions

      11   were, but you can respond in kind to that list.

      12              DR. MICHAELS:  Yeah.

      13              DR. BORWEGEN:  But I think the long

      14   work hours is very -- and also what about the --

      15              I also would be interested to see the

      16   applicability of either Davis-Bacon Act or the

      17   Service Contract Act requirements to pay people a

      18   living wage that are doing this work.

      19              DR. MICHAELS:  Thank you.  This is

      20   David Michaels.

      21              You know, I can't speak to the wage

      22   issue.  While you're in the building, if you want



                                                         74

       1   to speak to the wage and hour people in this

       2   building, the wage and hour laws certainly apply.

       3   I don't know, you know, which particular statutes

       4   apply to this, though.

       5              In terms of the other issues you

       6   raised, our OSHA staff, by the way, led by

       7   Cindy -- the way we structured this is Cindy Coe,

       8   who is our Region 4 administrator, is in charge of

       9   all of our Gulf cleanup activities.

      10              Even though the activities crossed two

      11   of our regions, we thought it would make more

      12   sense to have a unified command with OSHA.

      13              And we're quite fortunate, because

      14   Cindy was the area director in Anchorage at the

      15   time of the Exxon Valdez, so has a great deal of

      16   experience in oil cleanup as well.  As well as,

      17   obviously, working in heat areas, because she's

      18   been Region 4's administrator for quite some time.

      19              When we see areas that people are

      20   working in unprotected heat, you know, sun and

      21   heat, we insist that they be given plenty of

      22   breaks and hydration.



                                                         75

       1              We don't tell BP how often they must do

       2   it, but we observe very carefully, and if we are

       3   not satisfied in each individual case, we say,

       4   we're not satisfied, you have to do different

       5   things.

       6              And that's the way we're relating to BP

       7   right now.  We're in, as we say, the compliance

       8   assistance mode, in that when we recognize

       9   problems, we immediately tell them there's a

      10   problem.

      11              But I want to recognize that we have

      12   not given up our right to issue citations.  We are

      13   not issuing them now, because we don't feel

      14   they're necessary to get the compliance that we

      15   need.

      16              But if that changed, or if we saw a

      17   fatality, or something that we felt really had to

      18   be addressed, we would address it that way.

      19              But in terms of heat, and in terms of

      20   sanitation, we ensure that there's, you know,

      21   proper sanitation available.  That's part of the

      22   OSHA rules, and we expect to see that.



                                                         76

       1              But in terms of recommending people

       2   bring in cooling vests, for example, we haven't

       3   gone there yet.  We've said, you have to give

       4   people plenty of breaks and give them a lot of

       5   hydration.

       6              If we saw that was not successful, we

       7   would to have to consider other approaches, and BP

       8   would have to -- you know, BP has to make that

       9   decision.

      10              We make recommendations, and then we

      11   say whether or not we're happy with how they've

      12   responded.

      13              DR. BORWEGEN:  I have just a couple

      14   follow-up questions.

      15              Maybe NIOSH or OSHA could figure out

      16   what the feasibility would be to, you know, maybe

      17   bring in these vests.

      18              And, again, looking at the -- I'm

      19   concerned, too, David, that, you know, we don't

      20   have somebody on every boat, we don't have

      21   everyone on every shore line; and that, if you

      22   you're just citing what you see, what about all



                                                         77

       1   the stuff you're not seeing?

       2              And I think that we need to perhaps put

       3   some of this information in writing, that people

       4   should be looking at the Cal/OSHA heat stress

       5   standard as a model, that people need to be having

       6   breaks.  I would argue -- I don't know if it's

       7   temperature dependent, but regular breaks,

       8   hydration, as you stated.

       9              And that long hours is a major concern.

      10   And I think we need to get literature out, fact

      11   sheets out to these workers in the various

      12   languages as soon as possible.

      13              And what about the toilet facilities?

      14   Is there a requirement there?

      15              DR. MICHAELS:  There is a requirement

      16   in toilet facilities.

      17              The long hours, though, is one we've

      18   raised again recently and are trying to work that

      19   through.

      20              If you have -- maybe I could turn this

      21   back to you.

      22              What is the right number of hours



                                                         78

       1   people should be working?

       2              DR. BORWEGEN:  Well --

       3              DR. MICHAELS:  This is the question

       4   that's asked me, and that's why we pay you the big

       5   bucks.

       6              DR. BORWEGEN:  -- I can tell you that

       7   we represent a lot of nurses, and they all like to

       8   work 12 hours, but I can also tell you that one of

       9   our nurses who got HIV was on the 11th hour of her

      10   12-hour shift, from a needle stick injury.

      11              So, sometimes, you know -- so, you

      12   know --

      13              DR. MICHAELS:  But is there a right

      14   number of hours?  I mean, that's the question I'm

      15   asked on a regular basis.

      16              DR. BORWEGEN:  But also, you know, I'm

      17   curious as to whether or not these hours are

      18   voluntary or mandatory.  And I think that's a very

      19   important issue, that workers shouldn't feel

      20   obligated to work these longer hours in order to

      21   keep the job.

      22              So I think that it really needs to be a



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       1   question -- we should have a position, the

       2   government should have a position that mandatory

       3   overtime is not acceptable, and that any worker

       4   who wants to work over 8 hours, it's a judgment

       5   call on that worker but it's not a requirement of

       6   the job.  I think that would be safer under this

       7   incredible heat stress condition.

       8              I just have one more point, which is

       9   kind of a --

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill, wait.  Hold the

      11   other point and let's come back to it, because

      12   there were some other hands, okay?

      13              I just want to -- Peg?

      14              MS. SEMINARIO:  Thank you very much.

      15              This, obviously, is a major challenge

      16   for both agencies, you know, clearly unexpected,

      17   and incredibly challenging.

      18              I have done a lot of work on the World

      19   Trade Center, as John knows, going back to, you

      20   know, September 11, 2001, and we have learned a

      21   lot from that experience.  And I think one of the

      22   things that we want to make sure that we do here



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       1   is we learn from those lessons.

       2              There's also experience out of Exxon

       3   Valdez, with that particular oil spill.

       4              So one of the things that I think would

       5   be helpful is for both agencies to bring in some

       6   of the people who were involved and have been

       7   involved in those activities, just to look at some

       8   of these areas here, and to get some advice.

       9              And perhaps we can bring some of those

      10   folks in through this committee -- I don't know

      11   the best way to do that -- but to learn from that

      12   experience.

      13              And I think one of the things that the

      14   situation in New York at the World Trade Center

      15   taught us is that if we just look at permissible

      16   exposure limits, we're not going to protect

      17   people.

      18              And there's whole questions also about

      19   whether sampling individual hazards, individual

      20   chemicals, is going to really tell us what is the

      21   potential health impacts.

      22              And what is also needed as part of this



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       1   system here is an ongoing active health

       2   surveillance system, to try and capture whatever

       3   reports are coming back from the workers and from

       4   the community, and following them up, but also

       5   getting some sense of what impacts.

       6              And while it may not tell you a lot

       7   about the chronic effects, if we had listened to

       8   people's health complaints in New York, maybe we

       9   wouldn't have 16,000 people now sick.

      10              And so I think the surveillance systems

      11   are really key.  And I'd like to get a little bit

      12   of information about what is being done to put in

      13   place a very active and robust health surveillance

      14   system as well.

      15              One of the groups, John, that you

      16   didn't mention, and I think they may be captured

      17   in perhaps the shoreline workers, are those

      18   workers who are involved in decontamination.

      19   Those are clearly different exposures than people

      20   picking up oil, and trying to get some sense from

      21   how many people are involved in each of these

      22   activities.



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       1              And another question, and I know it's

       2   something that complicates the situation, is

       3   jurisdiction -- these people are working, some of

       4   them are on shore, some of them are offshore --

       5   and some better sense of who is responsible for

       6   the safety and health and oversight at the source

       7   and on the vessels that are in the water.

       8              And is OSHA there?  Is somebody there?

       9   It would seem that those people have a potential

      10   for higher exposures, and so that is, obviously, a

      11   real area of concern.

      12              Another issue which has, you know,

      13   raised concerns is the fact that OSHA has

      14   essentially waived the requirements of the

      15   HAZWOPER standard, strictly as training

      16   requirements, and limited the initial training to

      17   four hours.

      18              And what the rationale is for that, it

      19   would seem that a lot of these folks have the

      20   potential for some more significant exposures.

      21   This may be one of the biggest cleanups ever, and

      22   so it seems like there's a disjunction, in some



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       1   ways, of having the biggest cleanup ever in the

       2   country, and then having the major standard that

       3   applies in those areas that came about as a result

       4   of the exposures initially at Love Canal because

       5   we weren't protecting people.  So that's another

       6   whole area, I think.

       7              And one last suggestion here in all of

       8   this.  Going to the OSHA web page, the EPA web

       9   page, the NIOSH web page, there's lots of

      10   information, but it's not connected.

      11              It's not connected to these exposure

      12   groups that Dr. Howard outlined, people that are

      13   working at the source, people that are working on

      14   a service control vessel.

      15              I think it would be really useful to,

      16   in short order, develop materials here that are

      17   speaking to these different exposure situations

      18   and potentials, and explaining what those are,

      19   explaining what the recommendations are for the

      20   training for those, what the recommendations are

      21   for addressing particular hazards, and the

      22   exposure information that is linked to those,



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       1   because it's very hard to make those assessments.

       2              And I think one of the things that has

       3   happened is that, particularly in the public's

       4   mind, the media's mind, is that they're lumping

       5   all this together, and you have one health report,

       6   which is obviously serious and needs to be looked

       7   at, but then people think that everybody there is

       8   getting sick or at risk.

       9              And so I think having information, so

      10   that it isn't just the 20 OSHA staff, but it's

      11   other people who are on site, that there's a

      12   general understanding for each of these groups of

      13   workers of what the hazards are, and what the

      14   recommendations are, and what the information is

      15   showing, and that that is more transparent and

      16   readily available to health professionals, people

      17   in the states, other folks.

      18              Because right now, it's very, very hard

      19   to sort of wind your way through all of that.

      20   And, you know, I couldn't tell you, for these

      21   groups, knowing and spending a lot of time, of

      22   what the recommendations are, and what the



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       1   potential exposures are, which exposure levels

       2   have been found with respect to these particular

       3   groups.

       4              So those are some thoughts, as well as

       5   some areas of question.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  I think it

       7   would be useful to point out that committee

       8   members can respond to each other, as well as

       9   having just back and forth between the committee

      10   and the two agency directors.

      11              So I know there are a couple of other

      12   hands up, Denise, and then Linda Rae.

      13              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Hi.  Denise

      14   Pouget, Assistant Chief with Alexandria Fire.

      15              I'm kind of dovetailing onto what you

      16   were saying as far as, like, having a system, and

      17   information available.

      18              And I can't help but think this is like

      19   a large hazardous materials incident, for me.  A

      20   huge amount of product --

      21              MS. SEMINARIO:  Right.

      22              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  -- and so



                                                         86

       1   forth, and the way that we would deal with it in

       2   the fire department would be to set up incident

       3   command, unifying command, and so forth, and

       4   everyone involved, obviously, the incident

       5   commander is responsible for.

       6              And absolutely respiratory protection

       7   and atmospheric or air monitoring would be the

       8   number one priority.  And in many cases, depending

       9   on whether you're in the hot zone or where you

      10   are, we're going to put people in level A suits

      11   and so forth.

      12              And so, I keep thinking, you know,

      13   respiratory exposure, just exposure by absorption

      14   and so forth.

      15              And just knowing from, you know, having

      16   colleagues -- I've been in this business for about

      17   30 years -- throughout the years that have passed

      18   from cancer.  And, typically, we die about 10

      19   years earlier than the average folks, as far as

      20   our occupation.

      21              So, with that, you know, I, too, share

      22   a serious concern for the respiratory exposure and



                                                         87

       1   just the exposure in general for these folks who

       2   have absolutely, probably, no idea what they're

       3   getting themselves into.

       4              And I would echo and say what --

       5              Is that Margaret?

       6              MS. SEMINARIO:  Peg.

       7              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Hi.

       8              You know, how she was saying that they

       9   should be informed at the different levels of

      10   exposure and so forth.

      11              But, I mean, I just can't help but

      12   think that it's like a large incident for me, that

      13   that -- I, too, share that, and recommend that the

      14   respiratory protection -- I was just jotting down

      15   some notes.

      16              One of the things that we do is we do

      17   fit testing, to make sure that the people are

      18   trained, they understand the respirators and all

      19   that.  I'm sure you know that, because we were

      20   required by you.

      21                       (LAUGHTER)

      22              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  And also,



                                                         88

       1   physicals on our folks, you know, to make sure

       2   that they can withstand that.

       3              So I guess the way I understand it is

       4   that, because of the nature and the huge disaster,

       5   that some of those requirements have been either

       6   not put into play yet, or reduced?  Is that how I

       7   understand it?

       8              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, they've been

       9   modified, based on experience and previous

      10   disasters.

      11              On the other hand, you know, it might

      12   not be inappropriate, you know, to move, as

      13   Dr. Howard said, for certain job categories,

      14   additional protections.

      15              That's one of the things that we have

      16   to look carefully at, and we hope to get some

      17   assistance from you on that.

      18              Obviously, there are people who walk

      19   along the beach with shovels, picking up weathered

      20   oil, and their requirements are very different

      21   than people who are driving boats through, you

      22   know, sheens and mechanically aerating chemical



                                                         89

       1   mixtures.

       2              But one thing worth noting --

       3              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Are the

       4   requirements different right now?

       5              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, they should be.

       6              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Right.

       7              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, they certainly

       8   have different --

       9              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Right.

      10              DR. MICHAELS:  Yeah.

      11              No, and we're trying to measure them

      12   right now.

      13              And that's exactly right.  But what

      14   we've done is, in some cases, pulled people and

      15   said, you can't go in certain areas and do this

      16   work.  And that's the easier thing to do,

      17   obviously.

      18              And that's what happened when we were

      19   in the situation of the first people being taken

      20   to the hospital, not actually hospitalized, the

      21   decision was made not to send boats into certain

      22   areas until we could get some more information.



                                                         90

       1   And that's obviously easier than putting people in

       2   respirators and say, okay, we can't do this work

       3   right now.

       4              But, there are a couple of points, I

       5   think, probably worth thinking about.  One is the

       6   concern that you have, and we share, when

       7   discussions are based on, are these levels -- not

       8   are they safe, but are they legal in terms of

       9   PELs.

      10              And we've tried to be very clear on our

      11   web site, and also talking to our federal

      12   partners, that we don't believe that thinking

      13   about PELs is appropriate in this setting.

      14              Most of the chemicals we're talking

      15   about either have no PELs, or the permissible

      16   exposure limit is outdated.

      17              And it's misleading to say, you know,

      18   well, it's well below -- you know, the level is

      19   well below the OSHA PEL, even though that's often

      20   on a former website, just to give people a context

      21   and say, where does the level fit in what we

      22   understand.



                                                         91

       1              But because we're not dealing with

       2   safety and health professionals, we don't want

       3   people to have a misleading understanding -- we

       4   don't want to mislead them and say, well, because

       5   it's one-tenth of the OSHA PEL, that means it's

       6   safe.

       7              And so if you look at -- we provide

       8   some materials for our website where we talk about

       9   what levels we found, and we actually were not

      10   listing our OSHA PELs on there.  And we try to

      11   make that clear to other agencies as well, that,

      12   you know, we're not using PELs.

      13              If we moved into enforcement on these

      14   issues, obviously the PELs would come into

      15   consideration, because we can't issue citations

      16   around exposure if the exposure is below the PEL.

      17              But that's a later discussion.

      18              It's worth spending a minute on

      19   jurisdiction.  And, again, this is one that's

      20   impacted by the sort of decision to be in

      21   primarily compliance assistance mode.

      22              Because we are not issuing citations,



                                                         92

       1   our position is, we are trying to help BP and help

       2   the other agencies, so we don't limit ourselves to

       3   simply what we have legal jurisdiction over.

       4              We, obviously, can't -- you know, the

       5   jurisdiction of OSHA stops at the three-mile

       6   territorial limit, or coastal waters.  So we

       7   couldn't consider issuing a citation beyond that.

       8              On the other hand, that doesn't stop us

       9   from going on the boats, doing measurements,

      10   making statements about what exposures are,

      11   because our concern is protecting workers.

      12              And so, just so you know, though, our

      13   jurisdiction covers the cleanup workers on the

      14   land, and within vessels within the coastal

      15   limits, three miles on uninspected vessels.

      16              And so certain Coast Guard vessels we

      17   don't cover -- or Coast Guard inspected vessels we

      18   don't cover.

      19              But, for the most part, the vessels of

      20   opportunity, as they're called, these are

      21   shrimpers, fishermen, whose vessels have been

      22   hired, are generally covered by OSHA within the



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       1   three miles.

       2              They often do not stay within three

       3   miles, obviously.  You know, it's ridiculous to

       4   draw a distinction between the coverage they get

       5   in the first three miles and the coverage they get

       6   at four miles off the coast, but that is the

       7   jurisdiction.

       8              In addition, I think it's worth noting

       9   for the record that public sector employees, who

      10   work for either states, counties, municipalities

      11   or parishes, in those four states affected,

      12   formerly do not have OSHA coverage.  And there are

      13   quite a few public sector, local and state

      14   employees, who have been employed in the cleanup

      15   operations, because OSHA -- federal OSHA does not

      16   cover state and municipal workers.  We don't

      17   officially cover them.

      18              Again, we don't look at them any

      19   differently right now from other workers, but if

      20   we were in a situation of issuing citations to

      21   employers, we would not be able to issue a

      22   citation to their employer, because we have no



                                                         94

       1   coverage.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thanks.  Linda.

       3              DR. MURRAY:  I have some questions and

       4   then some general comments.

       5              I was asking the chief here, aren't

       6   there rules, when we fight forest fires,

       7   et cetera, in terms of heat and length of work, et

       8   cetera.  And she was reminding me of my FEMA

       9   training.  I always forget that there are

      10   operational periods.

      11              So I would look there, and certainly

      12   internationally, to ask, you know, what do the

      13   operational periods say in a forest fire, which

      14   comes very close, in terms of a lot of physical

      15   work, with respiratory equipment and stuff, in

      16   terms of trying to find something shorter than 14

      17   hours.

      18              And also, the reason I mention forest

      19   fires is because in that setting, unlike, say, a

      20   residential fire or an industrial fire, the

      21   operational periods may last, you know, months,

      22   weeks and months, which is what we're looking at



                                                         95

       1   here.

       2              So I wanted to make some comments.  And

       3   even though I can't explain all the details of

       4   what's going on there, and I know what's on the

       5   news and the perception is wrong, I mean, I know

       6   that, and I'm sure on the Coast Guard boats and

       7   that.

       8              But, nonetheless, in our field, in

       9   public health in general, and certainly in

      10   governmental work, we tend to stay too much in

      11   silos.

      12              And so I think one of the real issues

      13   that Peg was mentioning, for a worker or anybody

      14   to have to go to four or five or six or ten

      15   different websites to find information is a little

      16   distressing.

      17              And what kind of information they find

      18   is even more distressing, because it's not always

      19   tailored.

      20              But I had not had the sense, either in

      21   the area of workers' protection or many other

      22   areas, that things are truly coordinated.



                                                         96

       1              So as you say, there's a bunch of local

       2   health departments there, there's state health

       3   departments there, you know, there's 20 million or

       4   so federal departments there, and there's not a

       5   sense of cohesiveness.

       6              I'm assuming, though I don't know, it's

       7   in the news, I'm assuming there's an incident

       8   command, but I don't really know that there's a

       9   coordinated incident command.

      10              But even if there is, that doesn't

      11   always really translate on the ground to really

      12   cooperative work.

      13              And so, to me, in addition to

      14   protecting the workers, and in fact part of

      15   protecting the workers in this setting, because

      16   you have so many workers, and you're going to have

      17   increasing numbers of volunteers, and you have

      18   community residents that are there on those

      19   beaches, you know, that are not called workers, I

      20   think it's critical that we really have a broader

      21   public health approach and response to this, so

      22   that there's a website for the Gulf spill, so



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       1   that, you know, if I'm a resident down there, and

       2   my kid is going to the beach, there might be some

       3   advice about what they should do about those tar

       4   balls.  You know, are they collecting them in

       5   their wagon and bringing them home, or what?

       6              There needs to be clear cooperation

       7   with state, which I suspect is going on at some

       8   level, but especially with the local public health

       9   departments, in terms of what kind of advice can

      10   they give the residents there.  What kind of

      11   advice and support can we give volunteers, which,

      12   you know, like I said, are already working, but

      13   will continue to work even more.

      14              And I have not heard, in either your

      15   remarks or in general, lessons from other parts of

      16   the world that have had similar situations, not

      17   only our historic lessons, which certainly are

      18   plentiful, but other parts of the world, in

      19   approaches to this.

      20              So I guess, my major advice is -- and I

      21   know this is hard in the heat of the moment, but,

      22   you know, we've been there now for six weeks, or



                                                         98

       1   whatever it's been, so now is the time to begin,

       2   not to face workers or the public as OSHA and

       3   NIOSH, and expect us to remember who has what,

       4   and, you know, this is a Coast Guard jurisdiction

       5   and not OSHA.  You know, that's not what we want

       6   the public and workers to worry about.

       7              We sort of need a coordinated face that

       8   says, here are the major health and safety issues

       9   for people that are in this now; here are the

      10   long-term concerns; here are the --

      11              Certainly the role of EPA in public

      12   education is critical.  I know they're there, but

      13   I didn't hear you all mention that.

      14              So, to me, there really has to be a

      15   breaking down of our traditional public health

      16   silos, and paying more attention to really taking

      17   care of the patient, which in this case are all

      18   those communities, and the ocean and the fish, and

      19   all that other stuff.

      20              So, I guess that's my major concern and

      21   lesson.

      22              I'm glad to hear that you're ignoring



                                                         99

       1   some of the jurisdictional problems in terms of at

       2   least looking at the workers.  So that's a good

       3   thing, but I think that spirit could be brought

       4   even beyond that, and we would have a different

       5   kind of message that we're sending to people.

       6              And the last thing I want to say, and,

       7   you know, I know this is hard, but I really want

       8   to encourage you to remember our roots and

       9   remember the pump handle lesson, okay?

      10              And so we may not know exactly what the

      11   right number of hours to work out there in, you

      12   know, 100-degree weather, but let's just guess,

      13   let's just say six.  You know, let's say

      14   something.

      15              And let us think about other mechanisms

      16   of -- you know, clearly from the company's point

      17   of view, there's a question of cost.

      18              But, you know, what if they set up, you

      19   know, trailers with air conditioning and rest

      20   areas, and you know, just -- you know, a truck

      21   driver can't drive 14 hours, theoretically,

      22   without rest.



                                                         100

       1              So, you know, let's just pick an

       2   operational period, and if people look too tired,

       3   shorten it, you know, and be honest with people

       4   and say, we don't know exactly what the right

       5   measure is, but any idiot knows 14 hours a day,

       6   seven days a week is absurd.  So let us try

       7   something else.

       8              Now, the last thing I want to say, and

       9   let me try to say this, because this is a public

      10   setting, so let me think carefully how to say

      11   this:

      12              What I have heard in the media from our

      13   leadership, starting with President Obama, Lisa

      14   Jackson, and all of the state and federal

      15   officials that I've heard in the media, what they

      16   have said is, the responsibility of government is

      17   to make sure that the health of the public is

      18   protected, and we're going to hold BP responsible.

      19              What I thought of, when I heard those

      20   remarks, is this gives us, in health and safety,

      21   who usually have no resources to do what needs to

      22   be done, extraordinary opportunity to do things in



                                                         101

       1   a different way.  Because what our leadership has

       2   said is, we're going to protect the environment

       3   and the people, and British Petroleum is going to

       4   pay.

       5              So, to me, we should begin looking at a

       6   study that looks at appropriate workmanships.  You

       7   know, we have enough people there to do that.

       8   Let's put some trailers -- let's do some

       9   innovative things, since at this moment in

      10   history, British Petroleum is paying.

      11              We should, after this disaster, be able

      12   to advance our field, and we should have a better

      13   idea of, not what to do in emergencies, but how to

      14   change some of our regulations, how to prevent

      15   some of the things that happen.

      16              And I know right now we're in a cleanup

      17   phase.  I don't want us to forget how we got here,

      18   so that's a whole other discussion for another

      19   day.

      20              So I would just encourage you to feel

      21   liberated, since British Petroleum is paying, and

      22   let's be innovative and really try to work



                                                         102

       1   together, and figure out what we can do to solve

       2   this problem and clean it up and prevent future

       3   ones from happening.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you, Linda Rae.

       5              Linda Rae reminds me, by the way, that

       6   each of the military branches has limitations on

       7   work periods, and I think it might be useful to

       8   take a look at those documents.  They're very

       9   specific, and they have been in effect for many

      10   years.

      11              Let me tell you where I'd like to go

      12   with this discussion.  I think that this kind of

      13   exchange of information and ideas within the

      14   committee, and between the committee and the

      15   agencies is extremely useful and necessary.  And

      16   I'd like to continue this until we take a break at

      17   10:00 o'clock.

      18              But following a break, I think it would

      19   be useful to try to shift the discussion a little

      20   bit, in the same area, I don't think we're done

      21   with the Gulf oil issue.  But within this area,

      22   I'd like to shift the discussion so that we can



                                                         103

       1   start to think about how the committee might in

       2   fact be most useful to the agencies with its

       3   advice and recommendations, and how we can

       4   organize ourselves to provide that kind of

       5   assistance, which indeed is our charge.

       6              But with that, let me open it back up.

       7   I know that Bill had more.

       8              And I'll get back to you, Bill.  I

       9   haven't forgotten you.

      10              But Peter first -- Peter Dooley.

      11              MR. DOOLEY:  Yeah, Peter Dooley, with

      12   LaborSafe.

      13              Just following up and amplifying the

      14   issues around the worker training, which I

      15   understand that OSHA was sort of left an inherited

      16   past practice with the Exxon Valdez spill, where

      17   four hours was seen as the adequate number of

      18   training hours.

      19              And, you know, as Peg Seminario said,

      20   there's a real question as to why not be going

      21   with the standard as in the HAZWOPER standard, the

      22   OSHA HAZWOPER standard, which mandates various



                                                         104

       1   levels of training being 24 and 40 hours, and I

       2   think there's some 8-hour training in there.

       3              So the question of the quantity of the

       4   hours, but also the quality of the training is a

       5   big question in a lot of people's minds, as to the

       6   adequacy of the warnings that were given to

       7   workers, and the ability to have training that

       8   really gives workers adequate information for them

       9   to protect themselves as best as possible.

      10              So I would just, you know, suggest that

      11   there's probably a need for increased level of

      12   minimum training for everyone, but also that there

      13   may be different levels of training that could be

      14   given to workers of various levels that could be

      15   doing peer training.

      16              And under the HAZWOPER training, as

      17   many people here know, there's been an incredible

      18   amount of sophistication that has happened in the

      19   world of worker training.

      20              And NIHS has been a leader in this to

      21   fund and support programs where workers have

      22   become virtual experts in taking preventive



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       1   measures to protect workers on various kinds of

       2   sites with hazardous waste.  So I think that

       3   there's a lot of experience there that could be

       4   really helpful.

       5              And also, just on the whole issue of

       6   monitoring and trying to identify what's hazardous

       7   and what's not, obviously the PEL, you know,

       8   limits are not adequate.

       9              But even beyond that, I think we need

      10   to be in this mode of prevention.  How do we

      11   control and protect workers to the best possible

      12   extent.

      13              And knowing that monitoring is not

      14   going to really be, you know, in many instances,

      15   not going to be a good indicator of what kind of

      16   level of control is needed, and just trying to

      17   prevent and protect as much as possible, and what

      18   is reasonably possible to be doing.

      19              And that's where trained educator

      20   groups, including workers, can really be very,

      21   very sophisticated, as we've seen in a lot of

      22   folks who have become specialized in hazardous



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       1   waste training.

       2              One last comment on the work hours and

       3   everything.  I believe many, many years ago, a

       4   group of trade unions in this country came up with

       5   a fairly good model, I think, that has worked a

       6   long time, except that we've been losing it in the

       7   last several decades, and that's 8 hours a day,

       8   and 40 hours a week.

       9              Unfortunately, many of us here have

      10   really fallen into sort of the lax about that, but

      11   that's at least a standard to be starting with.

      12              DR. MICHAELS:  Let me just add, not to

      13   try to respond to all those things, but just one

      14   thing I neglected to add was the other concern we

      15   have, which we talked about a little bit earlier,

      16   is ensuring that this training also be done in the

      17   appropriate languages.

      18              The Labor Department insists that local

      19   workers be hired, because it's very important to

      20   ensure that workers whose economic likelihood has

      21   been threatened be supported in this activity.

      22              And, therefore, there are a large



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       1   number of workers, who speak either Spanish,

       2   Vietnamese, or other southeast Asian languages, be

       3   trained.  And that's been a challenge.  I think,

       4   for BP, we've insisted on it.  They have moved

       5   forward with that.  Their training programs are

       6   being done in Spanish.  Their materials, they have

       7   been translated to Vietnamese, and some training

       8   for Vietnamese, we're also pushing for that as

       9   well.  So it's an interesting set of challenges.

      10              There actually are a large number of

      11   workers who have received the 40-hour HAZWOPER

      12   training as well, who have lots of different

      13   responsibilities down there.

      14              And we have to look not only at the

      15   training, but also, frankly, at the quality of the

      16   training.

      17              We have a system now which essentially

      18   is just a check-off, did you get the 4040 hours of

      19   training.  And I'm not sure that's adequate

      20   either.  So it's something also that perhaps this

      21   group can think about.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Jim?  Jim Swartz.



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       1              MR. SWARTZ:  Jim Swartz.

       2              I was just following up on what Linda

       3   had mentioned earlier in terms of messaging.  And

       4   this is just a general comment.

       5              Because of the complexity of the

       6   situation, obviously, we have the communities

       7   involved, and the mixed messaging that we're

       8   getting, especially in the southeast on television

       9   daily is, come on down, our beaches are okay,

      10   which, in fact, precipitates, bring your kids down

      11   and touch the oil.

      12              I mean, that's what we're seeing down

      13   there in the southeast, to the point where it's

      14   extremely difficult to get hotel rooms for

      15   workers, because there's so many tourists down

      16   there.

      17              So, again, the complexity of the issue,

      18   the community, and yet I know what you're up

      19   against is the economic vibrancy of the area feels

      20   very threatened, so all the dynamics are there.

      21              DR. MICHAELS:  It's fascinating.  And,

      22   you know, we, obviously, can't control the



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       1   message.  You know, different parties put out

       2   different messages.

       3              But there is an effort across the

       4   federal government in the public health agencies

       5   to work closely together, and messaging is

       6   certainly one of the things we're now thinking

       7   about very much and how to get that kind of

       8   information out, and so advice on that would be

       9   helpful as well.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.  Tim?

      11              DR. KEY:  Yes.  Tim Key.

      12              I have a couple of questions.  The

      13   calls that I get are about perceived risks.  And,

      14   you know, I have my understanding of what the

      15   actual risk, based on what I've seen as far as

      16   data information about exposure, and it's not

      17   meeting the perceived risk.

      18              How do you guys, how do we, in the

      19   actual trenches, go about dealing with that

      20   reconciliation?

      21              DR. MICHAELS:  And what you've got -- I

      22   mean, this is an area that we're very much eager



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       1   to hear your thoughts on.

       2              We try to not comment on the risk.  We

       3   try to say, here's our data, here's our

       4   recommendations.  But, you know, we're not experts

       5   in risk communication either.  We look to other

       6   agencies for data on that, so if you have thoughts

       7   on that.

       8              DR. KEY:  And a follow-up question

       9   would be, the issue of jurisdiction.  Obviously,

      10   if they were in Beaumont, Texas, those eleven

      11   deaths would be an OSHA major violation.  But

      12   that's not out on the rig.  Those are concerns.

      13              DR. MICHAELS:  That's right.  And, you

      14   know, obviously, the issue of -- you know, there

      15   is a mosaic of jurisdictions of worker protection

      16   across the country.

      17              And while OSHA has the majority of

      18   workers, there are groups of workers that OSHA

      19   doesn't offer protection to.  With the exception

      20   of public sector workers, most of them have

      21   protection, at least on a theoretical basis,

      22   provided by other agencies.



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       1              The Protecting America's Workers Act

       2   has a provision that would require other agencies

       3   to go through a process with OSHA to determine

       4   whether or not their programs are acceptable.

       5              And I assume that that would include

       6   the oil rig workers.  And I assume it's,

       7   obviously -- it's an issue that we, as a nation,

       8   have to think about right now to ensure that all

       9   workers are adequately protected.

      10              DR. BORWEGEN:  Bill Borwegen.

      11              So, as a layperson, or acting as a

      12   layperson, you know, looking at the media

      13   coverage, you know, scanning the press clips, I

      14   guess the New York Times did an article about the

      15   respirator issue.

      16              But I wonder if there's just a way that

      17   we could be more proactive with both, risk

      18   communication to workers, but also with the media.

      19   And, you know, instead of -- it seems like I, you

      20   know, watching OSHA work for the last 30 years,

      21   I'm sorry to say -- no, it's not ...

      22              But OSHA, I can't remember a time



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       1   during OSHA's history when they didn't have a

       2   bunker mentality, when dealing with the media.

       3   And I think this is an opportunity to talk about

       4   all of the good things that you're doing.

       5              I think you're doing a lot of rational

       6   things, and I think you need to have more of a

       7   proactive press strategy here to educate the

       8   press, which in turn educates the public about the

       9   good work that you're doing.  And OSHA has a hard

      10   time even articulating the good work that it does.

      11              I mean, you know, the Bloodborne

      12   Pathogen Standard, you know, took hepatitis B

      13   cases in this country from 17,000 a year among

      14   health-care workers to less than 300.  And I've

      15   never heard OSHA say that, and, you know, it's one

      16   of your amazing successes.

      17              So I think that, when you're doing good

      18   work or when you need to be public, in this case,

      19   I would urge you to revamp your press operations

      20   so that you could do a better job of communicating

      21   the good work you're doing.

      22              I was listening earlier, too, about the



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       1   way we need to communicate to workers.

       2              Also, you know, we have flu.gov.  Maybe

       3   we need some BPOil.gov, BPOilSpill.gov., a website

       4   that folks can go directly to.  And then, again,

       5   kind of summarizing what other people are saying,

       6   that this is the work -- I'm a cleanup worker on a

       7   beach, this is what I need to know; I'm a cleanup

       8   worker on a boat, you know, this is what I need to

       9   know.

      10              So I think there's a lot of useful

      11   tools, but I think this is going to be a

      12   long-term...

      13              I mean, if I'm a worker, the other

      14   thing is, is there an 800-number I can call, if I

      15   have a health and safety problem?

      16              DR. MICHAELS:  800-321-OSHA.

      17              DR. BORWEGEN:  Yeah, okay.  But are we

      18   getting that out to people?

      19              DR. MICHAELS:  We're trying to.

      20              DR. BORWEGEN:  Is that part of the

      21   training?

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Emory?



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       1              MR. KNOWLES:  I would --

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let's do Emory, and

       3   then we'll come back to you.

       4              DR. BORWEGEN:  Never mind.

       5              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles, Northrop

       6   Grumman.

       7              I believe Peg really hit the nail on

       8   the head, focused educational fact sheets,

       9   training for the specific categories, workers.

      10              The question I have, and I don't know

      11   whether either of you know the answer or not, but

      12   what is BP doing to train and qualify the managers

      13   and supervisors that are overseeing these workers?

      14   Is BP doing anything?  Do we have anything

      15   happening in the petrochemical industry?

      16              Or is OSHA doing any kind of outreach

      17   to train these folks so that these workers are

      18   wearing the proper PPE?

      19              What I see on TV is what I saw down in

      20   New Orleans following Katrina, where you had

      21   workers there who were provided the PPE, working

      22   in these very hot and humid environments, where



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       1   they would slice open the PPE, they would cut

       2   sleeves off, they would wear it pulled off, down

       3   to their waist.  So that, obviously, is indicative

       4   of problems at the management and supervisory

       5   level.

       6              So I was just wondering if there was

       7   anything happening there.

       8              DR. MICHAELS:  We can certainly get you

       9   more information.  It's my understanding that

      10   supervisors must have the 40-hour HAZWOPER

      11   training.

      12              And there is a very clear safety, sort

      13   of hierarchy structure, where information flows

      14   down through BP, and it flows directly across from

      15   the Coast Guard and from other agencies to BP.

      16              And it's augmented by OSHA being on all

      17   those sites.  And this is different than

      18   New Orleans, in that there are relatively few

      19   number of sites.  So the boats, I think, are a

      20   different question.

      21              But issues around this are very useful

      22   for us.  So, I don't know where we go with this,



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       1   but to have your input on questions like this to

       2   ensure that we're following this, and can follow

       3   up with either BP, or, you know, these

       4   communication issues, actually, would go into the

       5   unified command.

       6              This is a unified command system.  And

       7   if we're going to put up a -- you know, there are

       8   websites that have been put up.  The BP Horizon

       9   website is the unified command's website.  And

      10   that's certainly a website that should --

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  There's nothing there.

      12              DR. MICHAELS:  Right.  Well, that's

      13   obvious.  So we appreciate your advice on this,

      14   and can certainly raise it through that structure.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Roy Buchan.

      16              DR. BUCHAN:  I just wanted to follow up

      17   on your comment.

      18              What I see on television is that it

      19   seems that we're getting the perception that the

      20   federal government is doing nothing, it's all BP.

      21              I think that we really need to get the

      22   word out that OSHA and NIOSH and many other



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       1   agencies besides the Coast Guard are doing work in

       2   this area.  And I just wanted to congratulate you

       3   on bringing that up.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.  Joe.

       5              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten,

       6   Johnson & Johnson.

       7              A couple of questions and comments.

       8              One of the things that I always find

       9   useful is being able to learn from incidents when

      10   they occur.

      11              So, how will we be able to get the

      12   learnings from, say, God forbid, there is a

      13   fatality involved in one of these efforts, quickly

      14   out to the public and out to the other workers so

      15   that they can learn from that?  That's one

      16   question.

      17              I heard a lot of discussion around

      18   protecting workers.  I didn't hear a lot of

      19   discussion around volunteers and community

      20   workers.

      21              So that may be beyond the jurisdiction

      22   of OSHA, but certainly it's a public health issue,



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       1   because if people volunteer to help clean up, and

       2   they come down with illness, that becomes a burden

       3   on the national health system.

       4              The third question I have, I guess is

       5   for Dr. Howard, regarding -- I think I heard him

       6   say there was limited information on the chronic

       7   effects of exposure to crude oil.

       8              And I was wondering, don't we have

       9   anything from the Valdez cleanup, that we gathered

      10   information at that time that would be helpful in

      11   understanding this?

      12              So those are some comments.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'd like to move for

      14   our break in just a minute, but before that I'd

      15   like to ask if Dr. Howard or Dr. Michaels have

      16   anything else to add before the break.

      17              DR. MICHAELS:  I forgot your question

      18   already, I'm sorry.

      19              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Sharing incidents.

      20   Would we be able to share incidents quickly?

      21              DR. MICHAELS:  No.

      22              Oh, yes, there is actually a system in



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       1   place internally to share that.  I think you've

       2   raised a good point.

       3              Just as background for everyone to

       4   know, the Environmental Protection Agency has the

       5   same HAZWOPER regulations as OSHA does for

       6   citizens and volunteers.  And so we're working

       7   closely with them and trying to coordinate.

       8              So at least at this point, the

       9   volunteers are getting the same training, and

      10   they're in the same place as OSHA employees.  We,

      11   obviously, look at them quite --

      12              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Will they be part of

      13   NIOSH's roster of people who are involved in the

      14   spill cleanup?

      15              DR. HOWARD:  Yes.

      16              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  The volunteers will be

      17   registered as well as workers?

      18              DR. HOWARD:  Yes.

      19              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Okay. Thank you.

      20              DR. HOWARD:  But, you know, BP has

      21   hired independent contractors to hire the cleanup

      22   workers.



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       1              So if you push this jurisdictional

       2   issue too far, you know, there's probably precious

       3   few people in legal jurisdiction, because there

       4   are independent contractors between BP and the

       5   cleanup workers.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let's take a

       7   15-minute break, and we'll continue this

       8   discussion.

       9                     (RECESS TAKEN)

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  If the committee

      11   members would take their seats, please.

      12              Thank you.

      13              I would like to continue the discussion

      14   about oil spill issues, taking into account an

      15   obvious tension that exists in the function of a

      16   committee like this; namely, that the committee

      17   operates in slow motion, but events take place in

      18   realtime, and some of the needs of the agencies

      19   are in a much more immediate sense.

      20              And so we're going to need to consider

      21   what we can do over an extended period of time,

      22   but I also, by the end of the day, want to think



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       1   about what we might be able to offer the agencies

       2   by the end of today on some of the issues of

       3   concern.

       4              Before coming back to that, though,

       5   Dr. Howard has only 45 more minutes with us, and I

       6   think there's some other issues of concern to

       7   NIOSH that the agency would like NACOSH to

       8   address, and so I'm going to give Dr. Howard a

       9   chance to go into some other areas.

      10          (INTRODUCTORY REMARKS BY DR. HOWARD)

      11              DR. HOWARD:  Thank you very much.  And

      12   I appreciate the allowance here.

      13              You know, one of the issues -- and I

      14   hope that this committee has a long life so that

      15   we can tackle some of these issues.

      16              One of the issues that we've all just

      17   recovered from, some of us personally, is the

      18   outbreak of H1N1 influenza.  And, as you know,

      19   that was a very difficult process for all of us

      20   starting, you know, last year, in April, and then

      21   extending through the fall and the beginning of

      22   2010.



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       1              And one of the issues that arose, as we

       2   all know, was the issue of respiratory protection

       3   for health-care workers.  And in that arena, I

       4   think it would be helpful to have this committee

       5   look at that issue again for us.  I know for NIOSH

       6   it would be very helpful.

       7              We have, since that time, and I'd be

       8   happy to do any kind of direct presentation to a

       9   subcommittee of you all if you tackle this

      10   issue -- the basic issue has been between droplet

      11   and aerosol transmission as the relative

      12   contribution of each of those routes of

      13   transmission.

      14              Obviously, if droplet transmission is

      15   the sole way that influenza virus is transmitted,

      16   then the need for respiratory protection is less;

      17   if it's aerosol, then, obviously, it increases the

      18   need.

      19              There's precious little research in

      20   this area, but I'm happy to say that NIOSH is

      21   beginning that research in terms of getting

      22   additional evidence.  We have established a live



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       1   virus laboratory in Morgantown, West Virginia, and

       2   we're looking at additional clinical transmission

       3   studies.

       4              But I think that issue and how we

       5   should approach it, God forbid, there should be

       6   another novel influenza virus that visits us next

       7   year or later this year, or even further in things

       8   we don't want to think about, an H5N1, or in avian

       9   influenza, which would have a substantial

      10   mortality rate.

      11              At least now, in southeast Asia and

      12   Indonesia, it's about 59 percent of the cases that

      13   have acquired H5N1 have succumbed to the virus.

      14              So I think, you know, we can't lose any

      15   time in serious consideration of this issue.  So

      16   we would love to hear this committee's advice on

      17   that issue of respiratory protection for H1N1 and

      18   any other research that you feel should be taking

      19   place that we're not doing.

      20              And again, we don't have time today to

      21   go into it, but I'd be happy to give you a

      22   presentation on that issue.



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       1              A second issue, which is a little more

       2   fun than that one, has to do with the use of

       3   social media.

       4              As you know, Bill talked about, you

       5   know, getting the word out better than we do.

       6   There is an entire generation of folks, people in

       7   Generation X, and Millennials, who really don't

       8   read newspapers anymore, and we need to reach that

       9   population in the future.

      10              And it certainly is becoming apparent

      11   to us, through our own placement of our videos on

      12   YouTube and our photographs on Flickr, and our

      13   science blog that we do, our electronic newsletter

      14   that OSHA and NIOSH does, and our Twitter sites

      15   that we operate, and our contributions to

      16   Wikipedia that we put, that all of these types of

      17   social media are becoming more important.

      18              And how we adapt them to the

      19   occupational and safety health message --

      20   obviously, our messages are fairly ponderous

      21   sometimes, and not easily put in 140 characters.

      22              And how we do that, and recommendations



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       1   along those lines, are extremely important for us,

       2   because we really feel this is highly relevant to

       3   our future.

       4              In addition to attracting future

       5   participants in occupational safety and health as

       6   a profession, because we always have that

       7   struggle.  In addition to communication with

       8   workers, employers and others, I think that's an

       9   important issue.

      10              So that's a second area.

      11              A third area that I would mention to

      12   you that I think is important for us is our

      13   Prevention Through Design initiative, which I'm

      14   happy to see that Dr. Michaels supports.  He was a

      15   speaker at our Green Jobs Conference, which is a

      16   subset of our Prevention Through Design, in

      17   December, after being in the job only a couple of

      18   days.

      19              And I'd love to have somebody come and

      20   make a full presentation to you on Prevention

      21   Through Design.  And what kind of issues that we

      22   can look at there, and what kind of contributions



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       1   that you can make and advice that you can give us

       2   to hone that initiative, would be...

       3              I think it's entirely accessible to

       4   everybody on the panel.  I think we all have ideas

       5   about how to do this whole system of protecting

       6   workers better at the design and conceptual stage,

       7   instead of trying to retrofit and doing all these

       8   other things.  So those are just three ideas.

       9              I have many more, but those, I think,

      10   are the important ones that I'd like to put out

      11   today.  And as each meeting occurs, we'll be happy

      12   to give you some more ideas that you could comment

      13   on.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

      15              Thoughts about what Dr. Howard just

      16   said?

      17              Yes.

      18              (COMMENTS AND DISCUSSIONS ON

      19                 DR. HOWARD'S REMARKS)

      20              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Prevention

      21   Through Design.  I think that's fabulous, because

      22   we do a lot of retrofitting in the fire service,



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       1   as far as with our trucks.

       2              For example, seat belts, the number two

       3   killer of firefighters are vehicle collisions, and

       4   you know, a lot of that are volunteers and POVs,

       5   but then a lot of those, also the remainder, are

       6   collisions in our trucks.

       7              And because the seat belts fit the way

       8   that they do, like for a truck, when you fully

       9   gear a firefighter and they have their breathing

      10   apparatus on, which is one of the things that we

      11   do tell them, that they have to be seated and

      12   belted before we leave the fire house, because

      13   many have been thrown and so forth, it's hard for

      14   a lot of the folks, the bigger folks, to actually

      15   really buckle a belt.

      16              So I know there's a lot of folks on the

      17   different committees within the fire service that

      18   try very hard to get this across to the different

      19   manufacturers, like a race car seat belt and so

      20   forth.  But that would help us enormously.

      21              Another thing that we see on trucks are

      22   the handles, and a lot of firefighters, because



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       1   the belt doesn't fit, they don't have the belt

       2   connected correctly, and as they're trying to get

       3   in their gear and tighten their gear up, they hit

       4   the handle and fall out of the truck.

       5              I, myself, I retired from Montgomery

       6   County after 27 years of service and I've been

       7   with Alexandria for a couple now, but I've seen

       8   this happen in my career about eleven times, and a

       9   couple of times recently.

      10              What we've ended up doing is, like you

      11   said, retrofit, so that we have a flush door

      12   handle.

      13              So things like this would be fantastic,

      14   as well as for our female firefighters, the design

      15   of the ladders.  It would be so much easier -- the

      16   ladders are designed for shorter people.  They

      17   don't -- when you go to climb them or use them,

      18   they're kind of hard to utilize.

      19              So we've talked about that as well, as

      20   well as how they set on the truck and so on and so

      21   forth.

      22              But stepping up, a lot of our injuries



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       1   occur, ankles, knee problems, from the height of

       2   the truck, and so forth.

       3              So this would be a big, big plus to

       4   help prevent injuries in the fire service.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes?  Joe.

       6              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  I also want to offer

       7   some comments on Prevention Through Design.

       8              We were involved in the first NIOSH

       9   conference several years ago and also attended the

      10   Green Jobs Conference last December.

      11              When we look at what we call

      12   sustainability at Johnson & Johnson, we're really

      13   looking at the triple bottom line, which is the

      14   environmental side and the social side, as well as

      15   the economic side.  And that's where we see

      16   Prevention Through Design really coming into play,

      17   because we can look at the occupational safety

      18   issues of a job, as well as the green aspects of a

      19   product in the process.

      20              So we're very supportive of tying those

      21   two together, particularly, that's why I was

      22   interested in the Green Jobs Conference, because



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       1   as we look at green jobs, we really have to

       2   consider the health and safety aspects, make sure

       3   that we're protecting the worker as well as the

       4   environment.  So we're very supportive of that

       5   effort.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I saw another hand.

       7              Yes.

       8              DR. BUCHAN:  I don't know how you could

       9   implement this nationwide, but early in my career,

      10   I worked for the United States Air Force, and any

      11   new building, any new facility, any change in

      12   process, had to go through bioenvironmental

      13   engineering, where I was housed as an industrial

      14   hygienist.

      15              I don't know if we could have companies

      16   require the same thing.  They may have to go out

      17   to consultants or whatever.  But I think this was

      18   almost 40 years ago, so they were doing Prevention

      19   Through Design a long time ago, and it seemed to

      20   work very well.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill Borwegen.

      22              MR. BORWEGEN:  Bill Borwegen, SEIU.



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       1              Yeah, I know we have a whole department

       2   in our organization dealing with new media, and I

       3   don't think anybody in this department is older

       4   than 30, I don't know if that's a prerequisite,

       5   but, I mean, you know, it's clear that, you know,

       6   the integral role that all of this new media plays

       7   in communications.

       8              And, again, I go back to my, you

       9   know -- I mean, the bunker mentality hasn't worked

      10   for 30 years.  I mean, it's not like OSHA's budget

      11   has gotten bigger, you know, as a result of this

      12   approach.

      13              So, I mean, there's an opportunity here

      14   for, I think, us to tell a good story.  I think

      15   OSHA and NIOSH are doing good work, and to the

      16   degree we can take advantage of this new media, I

      17   think that would be great.

      18              As far as the work that we've been

      19   doing on respiratory protection, that NIOSH has

      20   been incredibly helpful, around H1N1, I want to

      21   thank NIOSH for all of their work in this area.

      22              It's been kind of a real brutal



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       1   process.  And, fortunately, you know, in addition

       2   to NIOSH's work, we've had a very healthy process

       3   going on with the Institute of Medicine.  And they

       4   had a meeting last week, talking about this issue

       5   some more.

       6              But, you know, I think we pretty much

       7   have concluded that we don't know what percentage

       8   of H1N1 is transmitted through the airborne route,

       9   but we do know that, in fact, there is an airborne

      10   component, and through the NIOSH work, we've

      11   identified that the virus particles are actually

      12   live virus particles.

      13              And the lab that you've just created in

      14   Morgantown is a step in the right direction to do

      15   the definitive research to figure out what is the

      16   contribution of airborne transmission of flu and

      17   how we should be protecting ourselves.

      18              But it would be important for this

      19   committee to look at this issue in more detail.

      20   And the reason I say that is because there's

      21   another FACA, who, you know, writes letters to the

      22   White House, trying to undermine respiratory



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       1   protection for health-care workers, that's

       2   exclusively comprised of folks from the

       3   health-care industry.  And I don't know how they

       4   get away with it.  You know, maybe I should talk

       5   to Sarah.

       6              But, I mean, they don't have the, you

       7   know, the diversity of constituency groups like we

       8   have on this committee, and they've done a lot to

       9   try to undermine respiratory protection.  And they

      10   don't have the expertise in the area like we do,

      11   with a better understanding of virus -- viral and

      12   respiratory protection, so I think we should look

      13   at that issue.

      14              So I thank you for that suggestion.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg Seminario?

      16              MS. SEMINARIO:  Peg Seminario, AFL-CIO.

      17              One issue that isn't listed on the

      18   agenda of topics for discussion, or that you've

      19   raised, Dr. Howard, is the issue of exposure

      20   limits, admissible exposure limits.  And it's one

      21   that clearly is an area that's evidenced by our

      22   earlier discussion, where what's in place right



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       1   now under OSHA regulations are woefully old, out

       2   of date, non-existent.

       3              And this is an area where NIOSH, under

       4   the statute, was clearly intended to play a major

       5   role in coming up with recommendations for

       6   standards, and for a long time was very actively

       7   involved in coming up with recommendations, and

       8   you still do have a process for putting forward

       9   recommended exposure limits.

      10              I know that there is an effort

      11   underway -- maybe Dr. Michaels can talk about it a

      12   little bit more -- to have a discussion about how

      13   to address exposure limits.

      14              But it would seem to me that this is an

      15   area that has just been neglected for so long, in

      16   looking on the health side of the equation here,

      17   and looking at health standards, and exposure

      18   levels, that it is one that really does need to be

      19   tackled.

      20              And it's, you know, incredibly

      21   difficult.  It's daunting, challenging, for lots

      22   of different reasons.  But we'd just like to hear



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       1   from you as to what NIOSH is doing in this area,

       2   and what work you and OSHA are looking at, and

       3   what kind of priority this is for NIOSH at this

       4   point in time.

       5              DR. HOWARD:  If I could respond, it's a

       6   very high priority.  My list of three, because I

       7   only limited myself to three, there's actually

       8   about ten or twelve -- but that certainly is on

       9   the list.

      10              And, you know, at this time, as

      11   everybody probably knows, as Bill has mentioned,

      12   and as you have mentioned, you know, our resources

      13   have not been limitless.  At the same time, we've

      14   acquired a whole bunch of new and emerging

      15   hazards.  So, I do think we have a residual

      16   recommended exposure limit, OEL process, and we do

      17   do that.

      18              But we don't do it in the way that it

      19   was designed by the act, and we certainly don't do

      20   it in the intensity that we saw in the late '70s

      21   or early '80s.

      22              And as I've said to anyone who would



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       1   listen, to stakeholders, if you think this is an

       2   important activity that we need enriched, we are

       3   happy to do it.  We have talented toxicologists,

       4   risk assessors, et cetera, that are engaged in

       5   this.

       6              In fact, we're working on a recommended

       7   exposure limit now for diacetyl, in association

       8   with the OSHA folks who are working on a

       9   recommended exposure limit for carbon nanotubules

      10   now.  So we are doing work in that area, but we

      11   would love to increase the through-put in that

      12   area.

      13              We, for the first time, are very

      14   excited by the National Occupational Safety and

      15   Health Administration being interested in this

      16   area.  As we all know, that interest has really

      17   not been there.  So we're very excited right now

      18   that OSHA has taken this task on.  We are very

      19   active partners, and we hope to continue that as

      20   the activity increases at OSHA.

      21              You know, as we all know, you know, the

      22   act was written in the late '60s, early '70s, and



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       1   I think the vision of the framers was that we were

       2   to produce all of these recommended exposure

       3   limits, criteria documents, and we'd rush across

       4   the mall, run up to the stairs of the Perkins

       5   Building[phonetic], there would be somebody there

       6   from OSHA that would be anxious to take it, run in

       7   the building, and do a PEL and a standard out.

       8              Now, that vision hasn't turned out that

       9   way.  And I think we would love to see that vision

      10   being resurrected, and we would be happy to

      11   increase our through-put.

      12              And I think one of the issues that this

      13   committee could tackle is, you know, any

      14   recommendations that you-all have, advice for both

      15   agencies, you know, how should we start that

      16   process, how should we do it.

      17              Now, obviously, Dr. Michaels will talk

      18   about the process they've started, but I think

      19   it's an important issue for this committee, and it

      20   could be very enriching work, too.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

      22              DR. MICHAELS:  Why don't I come back to



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       1   that later, because we'll take advantage of

       2   Dr. Howard's time here.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Susan Randolph, did

       4   you have your hand up?

       5              MS. RANDOLPH:  Dr. Howard, you had

       6   talked about your use of social media, and I

       7   think, Bill, you had also mentioned that you used

       8   that a lot.

       9              And that's true at the University.

      10   We've had things come down, you know, to the dean,

      11   and how do we reach out to younger students, and

      12   other ways to incorporate learning?  And I think

      13   that's an important area.

      14              And I started thinking about our

      15   earlier discussion with the oil spill.  If there's

      16   some ways that we could be tapped into that, to

      17   try to reach out to the broader audience of the

      18   community about some of the risks and what they

      19   can do to help protect themselves.

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Roy Buchan.

      21              DR. BUCHAN:  I know how difficult it is

      22   to get the PELs changed.  I've watched this over



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       1   the years.  And this is probably not possible.

       2   But, why can't we just throw the PELs out, and

       3   have OSHA adopt the recommended exposure levels of

       4   NIOSH?

       5              Don't do it one chemical at a time, but

       6   say these are the recommendations that we have had

       7   for years, and we are supposed to provide RELs, or

       8   PELs in OSHA -- I think -- I know it would be a

       9   huge legal problem, it might even need

      10   legislation, but I think that might be a short way

      11   of getting there.

      12              DR. HOWARD:  Yeah, actually in the

      13   house version of the Miner Act in 2006, one of the

      14   provisions there was that MSHA would have to adopt

      15   NIOSH RELs.  That was deleted from the Senate

      16   version, so it didn't make it in the final bill.

      17              So, yes, it is an idea that others have

      18   thought of, and yes, you would need congressional

      19   authorization.

      20              MR. DOOLEY:  Peter Dooley, with

      21   LaborSafe.

      22              While we're on the topic of PELs and



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       1   such, I urge us to be really thinking about the

       2   principle of protecting and reducing exposure to

       3   the lowest possible limit, given the reality of

       4   the methods of control, including the whole issue

       5   of control banding, and ways to be looking at

       6   operations, and coming up with the best available

       7   technology to reduce exposures based on the

       8   operations, as opposed to just be thinking about

       9   monitoring for individual chemicals, and just to,

      10   you know, flip the perspective on that, and really

      11   be looking at how to accelerate that.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me comment on

      13   just two things.

      14              First of all, with regard to PELs, I

      15   think this is an extremely important area that

      16   we're now at least 40 years behind on, and we need

      17   to think through the approaches that can be taken

      18   to addressing the need.

      19              There are substantial legal and

      20   administrative barriers to moving ahead quickly,

      21   and I think that over time the committee might

      22   really be very helpful in providing some advice



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       1   about how those barriers can be overcome.

       2              But I think it's important to keep in

       3   mind that there are scores of thousands of

       4   chemicals in commercial use, and industrial use.

       5   And even if we can speed up the regulatory

       6   process, attempting to regulate these chemicals

       7   one at a time is the equivalent of trying to

       8   season your food one grain of salt at a time.

       9              It just doesn't work.  We need a

      10   different paradigm.  That's why ideas like control

      11   banding are things that we at least ought to have

      12   on the table for discussion.

      13              With regard to the second subject,

      14   Prevention Through Design, I think that, again,

      15   this is an extremely important area that the

      16   committee might well devote a lot of attention to

      17   over the coming months.

      18              It's closely related to another subject

      19   which is linked to the leading causes of workplace

      20   injuries and illnesses, musculoskeletal disorders

      21   associated with cumulative stress and repeated

      22   trauma, as well as those that are associated with



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       1   things like slips, trips and falls.

       2              So if we're talking about Prevention

       3   Through Design, we're also inevitably talking

       4   about occupational ergonomics and human factors

       5   engineering.

       6              And I was gratified to see, as I walked

       7   into the building today, that the sign in the

       8   lobby about safety day, or safety week, that uses

       9   the word "ergonomics," and I'm glad to see that

      10   that's back on the table.

      11                       (LAUGHTER)

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And I don't think we

      13   should be scared anymore about using the word,

      14   although it is important, obviously, for us to

      15   keep in mind the fact that regulatory efforts in

      16   this area were unsuccessful over the past ten

      17   years.

      18              But notwithstanding that, I think this

      19   is one of the major priority areas for all of us

      20   in the fields of workplace safety and health, and

      21   it would be irresponsible for us to fail to

      22   attempt to provide some advice to agencies about



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       1   how to move forward in preventing the most common

       2   and costly sources of workplace injury and

       3   illness.

       4              Are there thoughts for Dr. Howard, in

       5   particular?

       6              Yes, please, Joe.

       7              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten,

       8   Johnson & Johnson.

       9              Dr. Howard, I just wanted to put on the

      10   table my interest in road safety.  We've had

      11   discussions about this over the years, and I know

      12   NIOSH has been very supportive.  They sponsored

      13   the conference on road safety last year.

      14              I would encourage you to stay involved

      15   in this area, embrace the Decade of Action that

      16   the United Nations has called for.  There are 1.4

      17   million deaths each year across the globe related

      18   to road injuries, and we want to stay involved.

      19              So, I know we've talked about some

      20   research into the effectiveness of

      21   company-sponsored fleet safety programs.  I think

      22   this research at NIOSH would be very helpful in



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       1   understanding how we prevent the thousands of

       2   deaths that happen each year on U.S. roads,

       3   associated with driving for work.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Dr. Howard, you look

       5   like you're either going to leave or say something

       6   else, one of the two.

       7              DR. HOWARD:  I just wanted to say,

       8   yeah, I mean, we'd be happy to come and do a

       9   presentation to the committee on

      10   transportation-related issues and road safety,

      11   because it is a continuing legacy program of

      12   NIOSH's, and we'd be thrilled to do that.

      13              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten again.

      14              Let me just follow-up to say that

      15   sometimes it falls -- the drivers I'm talking

      16   about fall into a regulatory gap.  Because I'm

      17   talking about drivers who drive on company

      18   business, either drive their own vehicle, or a

      19   company-owned vehicle.  They're not subject to the

      20   DOT commercial driver regulations, and there

      21   really are no regulations that address improving

      22   that kind of driver's capability.



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       1              DR. HOWARD:  Right.  And, you know, our

       2   vision is never limited by regulatory limits.

       3                       (LAUGHTER)

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think Emory Knowles

       5   had one more question.

       6              MR. KNOWLES:  Just one, Dr. Howard.

       7              Prevention Through Design initiative,

       8   are there any efforts being focused on the aging

       9   workforce?

      10              DR. HOWARD:  Well, we have an entire

      11   work life program that we'd be happy to come and

      12   give you a presentation on.  And a component of

      13   that work life program is the significant

      14   demographic that this country, as well as a number

      15   of different countries in western Europe, China,

      16   Japan, Australia, are facing in the aging

      17   workforce.

      18              The proportion of the American

      19   workforce that will be 50 or over will be

      20   increasing significantly.  Plus, we don't have

      21   workers coming into that -- those lower age

      22   cohorts in the numbers that we've had before,



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       1   because of the baby boom generation.

       2              It's always interesting to me that

       3   we're juxtaposing the word "baby boomer" and

       4   "aging workforce" together.  Somehow it's the same

       5   people, but they're being described in different

       6   parts of their lifespan.

       7                       (LAUGHTER)

       8              DR. HOWARD:  But, anyway, so, we'd be

       9   happy to come and talk to you, and get the

      10   director of our work life program to come and talk

      11   to you about the aging workforce.  It's a topic

      12   that I've been talking about.  I just gave a

      13   presentation to the AIJ meeting in Denver on that

      14   issue, so ...

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Dr. Howard, I want to

      16   thank you for --

      17              DR. HOWARD:  Sorry that oil calls come,

      18   but I've got to --

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  We understand that,

      20   and I think we all appreciate the importance of

      21   the topics that you just placed on the table, and

      22   we are certainly going to want to come back and



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       1   get more information and get into --

       2              DR. HOWARD:  And there's plenty more

       3   where those came from.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And I think we also

       5   appreciate your restraint.

       6                       (LAUGHTER)

       7         (RETURNING TO COMMENTS AND DISCUSSION

       8                ON GULF OIL SPILL ISSUE)

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

      10              I think that before the end of the day,

      11   we can come back and pick up a bit on some of the

      12   topics that Dr. Howard put on the table.

      13              But at this point, I'd like to return

      14   to the discussion about oil spill issues.  And I'd

      15   like to ask Dr. Michaels if he might be able to

      16   help guide us towards the best way that we can

      17   provide you and NIOSH some assistance in

      18   addressing these issues, both in an immediate

      19   sense and a longer term sense.

      20              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, first, I should

      21   say, you certainly have already.  I mean, a number

      22   of your comments were very useful and certainly



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       1   ones that Dr. Howard and I will bring back to our

       2   own organizations and to the incident command

       3   system.

       4              I think one perspective for us we can

       5   take is, this really will become a long-term

       6   activity for OSHA, for NIOSH, and for the country.

       7   I mean, this oil, clearly, will not be cleaned up

       8   immediately.  The flow hasn't stopped.

       9              The systems that we've set up, the

      10   recommendations that we've been given, need to be

      11   examined and looked at and changed as appropriate.

      12              So I guess what I'd like to see is some

      13   process where this group can really be helpful to

      14   us in terms of suggesting ways to rethink some of

      15   the things we're doing, to change -- you know, as

      16   both the current situation, and also as our

      17   hazardous assessment changes, as the employment

      18   situation changes on everything, you know, we

      19   can't expect things a month from now to look as

      20   they look now.

      21              So, perhaps having some sort of work

      22   group that can informally meet -- I know that



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       1   formally you can't give us any recommendations,

       2   though perhaps by the end of the day you might be

       3   able to give us some just general ones.

       4              But, to have a working group that might

       5   be able to call on other people as well, I think

       6   that would be really helpful to us.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Reactions and

       8   thoughts about that.  Two suggestions that

       9   Dr. Michaels has made:

      10              One is that we consider setting up an

      11   ongoing work group to look at issues as they

      12   evolve over time.

      13              But also, secondly, to provide, if we

      14   can, some more specific recommendations by the end

      15   of today, understanding that with just one day, we

      16   can't possibly get into issues in great detail.

      17              Yes.  Roy Buchan.

      18              DR. BUCHAN:  I have a question, and

      19   maybe we need a legal analysis.

      20              But we talk about setting up work

      21   groups.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.



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       1              DR. BUCHAN:  We do not have all the

       2   expertise in the world at this table.

       3              Can we call in adjunct people to help

       4   us in work groups?

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.  And I can

       6   answer this one myself, although I'm always

       7   grateful for legal clarification.

       8              The rules, the operational rules for

       9   the committee not only allow me as the chair to

      10   establish subcommittees or work groups, but the

      11   rules also indicate that the committee may ask the

      12   assistant secretary to provide experts and

      13   consultants to help in those activities.

      14              And I think I heard Dr. Michaels say

      15   earlier that that might be appropriate.

      16              DR. MICHAELS:  No, we expect that.  I

      17   mean, obviously, you have great expertise in this

      18   room, but there are areas where we would need

      19   additional assistance on as well.

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Not

      21   surprisingly, Sarah Shortall would like to expand

      22   on that.



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       1              MS. SHORTALL:  While the chair and the

       2   DFO do have the ability to establish

       3   subcommittees, technically subcommittees are not

       4   covered under FACA, which means some of the same

       5   rules do not apply.

       6              That said, it has always been OSHA's

       7   practice, to the extent possible, to make the

       8   subcommittee meetings open to any interested party

       9   who might like to participate.

      10              The other sub -- I mean, the other

      11   advisor groups, most notably ACCOSH, that has a

      12   broad history of using work groups, tends to

      13   establish work groups.  And it has them meet in

      14   conjunction with their advisory committee

      15   meetings, so like the day before or the day after

      16   they meet, that allows any member of the public to

      17   come in and participate.

      18              And they do announce those with a

      19   Federal Register notice.

      20              While members of the public certainly

      21   are permitted to participate in the committees,

      22   any voting that would be done to move a measure



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       1   out to the committee would be limited to those

       2   persons who are on NACOSH.

       3              But it's pretty common for

       4   subcommittees to try to get a consensus or a sense

       5   of the room about where issues are.

       6              The other thing that's important to

       7   know, and keep a record of, is that subcommittees

       8   should be reporting back to NACOSH on a regular

       9   basis, even if they don't have a finished product.

      10              So as there's the normal overturn, or

      11   turning over of new members on the committee, we

      12   will have a record of what has occurred in the

      13   subcommittee.

      14              So I know that the -- well, I'm going

      15   to use ACCOSH as an example, but FACOSH does this

      16   too.  At every meeting they have oral and written

      17   reports from their subcommittee that are entered

      18   into the record, and any materials that come from

      19   the subcommittee that are brought to the whole

      20   parent committee are also put in the record.

      21              So you have an interesting history of

      22   what's going on, and you can keep track of what



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       1   the subcommittee has helped the parent group as a

       2   whole accomplish.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg, and then Emory.

       4              MS. SEMINARIO:  Peg Seminario, AFL-CIO.

       5              Just to follow up on this, one thing

       6   that I think would be helpful in this particular

       7   issue and area on the Gulf Coast, both of you

       8   mentioned it, is looking at this whole area of

       9   respiratory protection, and given the exposures,

      10   there's still information being gathered, the

      11   exposure assessments are still going on.

      12              But trying to think about how to get

      13   that input and that expertise pulled together, in

      14   using this committee or subgroup to do so, would

      15   it be possible to essentially have a working group

      16   set up on these issues?  And that the committee

      17   could sponsor and NACOSH could sponsor a public

      18   meeting, or a workshop, technical workshop, to

      19   come in and have some presentations, look at this.

      20              And so, gathering information in a

      21   public forum, bringing in outside experts, but

      22   then using the committee process to come forward



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       1   with some recommendations.  Because I understand

       2   that just a workshop couldn't necessarily make

       3   policy recommendations.

       4              So trying to figure out how we use the

       5   structure of the committee, our -- you know, I was

       6   looking at our responsibilities here, but making

       7   it something that's timely and useful, and more

       8   substantive in providing input to the agency, and

       9   just thinking about that as a possible activity

      10   that might be, you know, useful to try to engage

      11   in as soon as possible.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  My understanding is

      13   that, procedurally, that's something that is

      14   possible, and that in the past, NACOSH groups have

      15   sponsored forums or panel discussions on various

      16   subjects.

      17              Sarah?

      18              MS. SHORTALL:  I'd like to say that in

      19   context.

      20              As part of the notice of all meetings,

      21   there is a requirement to allow the public to

      22   submit comments on any topic, including those



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       1   topics that are before an agency.

       2              Although, in the case of NACOSH, we

       3   don't normally have oral presentations done, as

       4   time, and in the discretion of the chair permits,

       5   you can always have members of the public come

       6   here and speak.

       7              It would have to be done in the

       8   context, though, of an actual NACOSH meeting, or

       9   if you wanted to have a subcommittee that you held

      10   open.

      11              Subcommittees are not transcripted.

      12   Only the full committee itself is transcripted.

      13   So if you wanted to have a good record of it,

      14   you'd want to have that.

      15              It is very common on other committees

      16   for the committee to ask the agency or others from

      17   the public to come and give a presentation on an

      18   issue that is of great concern to the committee.

      19   And that's very common on all the other groups.  I

      20   would say every, at every meeting of the other

      21   advisory groups there's always outside

      22   presentations being made.



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       1              But you can, if you wanted to, give

       2   time for the public to come in and speak at your

       3   meetings.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think that if

       5   committee members agree that the idea that you're

       6   suggesting is a good one, then we can certainly

       7   figure out a way procedurally to accomplish it.  I

       8   don't doubt that it can be done.

       9              Yes, Emory.

      10              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles, and I'm

      11   showing my age here.

      12              But NACOSH has effectively used

      13   subcommittees in the past.

      14              When I first started my tenure on this

      15   committee, one of your predecessors implemented

      16   the use of work groups, was publicly announced,

      17   members of the public participated.

      18              Outside of this meeting, there were

      19   subsequent telephone call conferences and so on.

      20              One initiative that I worked with was

      21   the Hispanic worker outreach initiative, and we

      22   had members above OSHA, NIOSH involved, plus



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       1   several members of the committee.

       2              The end result of all that, sort of a

       3   white paper was put together, it was submitted

       4   back to the formal committee and to the agency,

       5   with various recommendations.

       6              So it has been used effectively in the

       7   past.  And, you know, my term will be coming up

       8   this fall, but I would strongly urge this

       9   committee, those of you who do remain on the

      10   committee into the future, to utilize these

      11   subgroups to involve not only members of the

      12   committee, but outside participants, in discussing

      13   these types of initiatives and moving issues

      14   forward.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Setting aside for

      16   just the time being the issue of how we would do

      17   something, as I understand it, the specific

      18   suggestion that Peg has placed on the table is

      19   that we establish a work group that deals with oil

      20   spill issues, that, among other considerations

      21   that the group pay special attention to questions

      22   regarding respiratory protection, and that we



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       1   consider having some type of public forum that

       2   would -- as well as engaging expert advice and

       3   assistance in addressing that subject.

       4              Peg, did I characterize that correctly?

       5              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yes.

       6              And let me just get a little bit more

       7   context.  One of the things we've seen with some

       8   of the other agencies who are grappling with

       9   issues in the Gulf, EPA dealing with the

      10   dispersant issue, is that they don't have all the

      11   expertise, but pulling together experts, putting

      12   some of the best minds together, to think about

      13   how do you approach this.

      14              And so, one of the things that I think

      15   that we should --

      16              Again, that would be helpful for OSHA

      17   and NIOSH to be doing, is all these thorny

      18   questions that you are facing, where the answers

      19   aren't so clear and you need the best thinking as

      20   to how to pull that together in some way that is

      21   both getting the expertise, but then also provides

      22   the agency input that they can use.



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       1              And whether this committee in a

       2   subgroup would be a mechanism, or some other

       3   mechanism such as NIOSH calling a scientific

       4   meeting could be something that could be done, and

       5   that this committee could participate in that.

       6              So I think there are different

       7   approaches, but just suggesting that that kind of

       8   exploration at that level on some of these key

       9   issues, not every issue, I think, would be

      10   particularly helpful.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, that's the

      12   suggestion that's on the table.

      13              So are there reactions from the

      14   committee or from Dr. Michaels?

      15              Yes, Jim.

      16              MR. SWARTZ:  Yes.  One of the things

      17   that, first of all, I like -- Jim Swartz.

      18              I like to point.

      19              But I'm also thinking of some of the

      20   various conversations that were held around the

      21   table today, looking at the various expertise

      22   around the table, talking about the number of



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       1   things we talked about, 9/11; we talked about

       2   Exxon; we talked about H1N1; we talked about BP,

       3   and we talked about long-term growth of this

       4   group.

       5              Does it appear that this may be a topic

       6   for something like emergency response, or crisis

       7   management, at which point in time we bring in

       8   over time respiratory protection as a part of this

       9   review, community involvement as a part of this

      10   review.

      11              It's a big job, I understand that, but

      12   there's an awful lot out there.  We actually start

      13   building, which is moving towards a longer term,

      14   ongoing work that this group can do.

      15              So I just throw that out as a broader

      16   scope approach, including respirators as part of

      17   the longer term approach.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Linda Rae Murray?

      19              DR. MURRAY:  I just want to summarize

      20   what I think I'm hearing, and see if that's

      21   reasonable.

      22              I did hear, and I hope we can before



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       1   the end of the day, have some broad

       2   recommendations, since that's our task, to give to

       3   NIOSH and OSHA, around the Gulf.

       4              I do support having a work group with a

       5   charge that in some ways is more technical than

       6   what you just said.

       7              So I do think respiratory protection

       8   may not be the only area that we want to look at,

       9   but I do think some more concentrated work by a

      10   work group -- and my understanding from what we

      11   said, it doesn't have to be just the people at

      12   this table -- where recommendations would flow

      13   back through this committee, would be a useful

      14   thing.

      15              And, hopefully, before the end of the

      16   day we could sort of be clear about what that work

      17   group -- whether we agree with that and what that

      18   work group might do.

      19              The third thing I want to say, though,

      20   is picking up on what Jim said, and that is a

      21   little broader approach.  You know, we're not the

      22   only advisory committee that exists in this arena,



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       1   so there are a million advisory committees and,

       2   hopefully, all of them are giving advice.

       3              But I would encourage NIOSH and OSHA

       4   and EPA and other people to use as many forums as

       5   possible to bring together people and to talk

       6   about the Gulf.

       7              And one thing that's coming up, which

       8   usually all three agencies have a presence at, for

       9   example, there's APHA in the fall.

      10              Because I do think that Jim's point

      11   about a broader response, the comments I made

      12   earlier about not just bringing in occupational

      13   and safety and health experts, but having a little

      14   broader public health response.

      15              What kinds of things do we need to be

      16   doing?  What kinds of things should primary care

      17   providers and nurses be looking for in the Gulf

      18   region?  You know, what kinds of advice should

      19   pediatricians be giving?  So a little broader

      20   approach.

      21              So we should look for forums that

      22   already exist, activities and meetings that are



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       1   already set.

       2              Like EPHA, like, NACHO[phonetic] is

       3   coming up in July, or whatever, so that that

       4   information could be put out there, and

       5   solicitation of points of view and comments and

       6   recommendations, not formal recommendations, but,

       7   you know, advice could be solicited.

       8              So, to me, this is part of the media

       9   approach that we talked about.  And media is not

      10   just a one-way, "This is what we want you to

      11   know," it's really a two-way issue.

      12              So I think by just being a little bit

      13   thoughtful in making sure that at those meetings

      14   that we know that we traditionally go to, that the

      15   agencies traditionally go to, that we do some

      16   stuff to make sure that we have some special

      17   opportunities to deal with the Gulf around those

      18   issues.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill Borwegen.

      20              MR. BORWEGEN:  Well, the workers, the

      21   companies, the reporters, they're at home in

      22   Louisiana today.  You know, I feel that we should



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       1   be there.  We should be doing some focus groups,

       2   talking to the workers, thinking about experts we

       3   need to bring in on this.

       4              We need to reorient the media's

       5   attention about, you know, respirators are a

       6   piece, but what about all of these other factors?

       7              Too bad -- I mean, it would have been a

       8   learning opportunity, it would have been a good

       9   opportunity to kind of reorient to the media

      10   discussion to make it more relevant.

      11              So with that said, I think we should

      12   figure out a way to get down there quick, and you

      13   know, a public forum or whatever, to figure out

      14   really what's going on down there.

      15              We have a two-day meeting and one day

      16   walking on the beach, right?  Have a tar ball

      17   fight.

      18                       (LAUGHTER)

      19              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

      20              Just a comment.  Yeah, this committee

      21   setting up a subgroup, that's looking at a longer

      22   term.  There's already a model out there you can



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       1   look at and utilize.  That's the National

       2   Nanotechnology Initiative.  Brought in experts

       3   around the globe to focus in on that particular

       4   issue.

       5              This particular disaster that we have,

       6   you know, with this oil spill, needs immediate

       7   attention, does need experts, global experts,

       8   pulled in now to look at this.

       9              Why can't we use something like the

      10   model of the NNI to move forward to look at all

      11   these issues quickly and rapidly, to protect the

      12   workers, the public, the environment, the whole

      13   shebang.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg Seminario.

      15              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, I think there's

      16   some pragmatic issues, because I think to set that

      17   up -- I'm just saying, I think right now what the

      18   agencies are facing is obviously over 10,000

      19   people, could be 20,000 people, who are out there,

      20   who are involved in a variety of cleanup

      21   activities, and that they've got to protect those

      22   folks.



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       1              And so our charge right now, I think,

       2   is to give them the best advice at dealing with

       3   the immediate issues that they are facing, which

       4   sounds to me are issues of fatigue, whether or not

       5   respiratory protection, kind of a PPE.

       6              And also I think in the area of trying

       7   to do follow-up and surveillance, which we

       8   shouldn't lose site of on that side of things,

       9   which is more HHS and NIOSH, but certainly within

      10   our purview.

      11              So I think that our immediate task is

      12   that, because between now and November, DHA,

      13   there's going to be a lot of exposures, and you

      14   know, much of the work will be done.

      15              And so there's things that we should be

      16   learning from, as we go forward, but our primary

      17   task and the agency's primary task is to protect

      18   people now.  So I would suggest in our discussion

      19   we should focus on those areas of immediate

      20   concern, and how we can best assist the agencies

      21   in making these difficult decisions and making

      22   sure that workers are protected.



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       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me just do a

       2   little bit of reality testing here.

       3              Without being specific about the charge

       4   that might be given to a work group, is there -- I

       5   want to see if there's general agreement that we

       6   ought to be setting up a work group that addresses

       7   these issues over an extended period of time.

       8              MR. BORWEGEN:  I support that, but I

       9   think David needs to call on existing resources

      10   that are immediately available to him.

      11              Probably the best group in the country

      12   on respiratory protection is located in

      13   Pittsburgh, and it's under the direction of NIOSH.

      14              The other thing that you can do, there

      15   are many experts in the national laboratories

      16   across the country, such as Lawrence Livermore, or

      17   Los Alamos, or so on.

      18              But I think, probably, if you need

      19   immediate help, I would go to the NIOSH

      20   respiratory protection group.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Roy, I appreciate

      22   what you're saying there.  There's certainly a



                                                         168

       1   number of immediate needs that OSHA and NIOSH need

       2   to address that this group can't fulfill.

       3              But I would like to see if we can reach

       4   some decision on this question of whether or not

       5   we should set up a work group.  And, if so, we can

       6   talk about exactly what its charge should be.

       7              And we still have the question that Peg

       8   raised about whether or not we can make some

       9   immediate recommendations that will be useful in

      10   realtime.

      11              So back to the basic question here:  Is

      12   there anyone here who has reservations about

      13   establishing a work group, with charge still to be

      14   articulated, on oil spill response issues?

      15              Yes?

      16              MR. BORWEGEN:  Technical --

      17              So a question for Sarah.  Can the work

      18   group, for instance, go down to Houma next week,

      19   and have a public forum where we get input from --

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That's a -- hold on

      21   to that question.

      22              I want to get a sense from the



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       1   committee on whether or not we should set up a

       2   work group.  Let's go one step at a time here.

       3              DR. BUCHAN:  A work group to do what?

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  A work group that

       5   will help the agency, that will help us to advise

       6   the agency on issues relating to oil spill

       7   recovery in the Gulf, with specific charge still

       8   to be articulated.

       9              Yes?

      10              MR. BORWEGEN:  Well, the reason I --

      11   because I don't know if it needs to be the full

      12   committee, or a work group.  It depends what the

      13   ability of the work group is, to how much -- how

      14   much the work group could do, you know.

      15              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, I think one of

      16   the things here -- you know, the work group can be

      17   a big work group.

      18              But I think that the specific charge

      19   here, that this is going to be an area of

      20   immediate work, and I would recommend and move

      21   that we set up a work group.

      22              I do think it's a very good idea to



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       1   have a structure that has this as a particular

       2   area of focus.  Then we can figure out all the

       3   pieces of it.  But I think it's too difficult to

       4   do as a full committee, given the rules of the

       5   committee itself.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'm going to try to

       7   avoid some formal decision-making process, with,

       8   you know, invoking the Robert's Rules, et cetera,

       9   if that's possible, and if that's allowable.

      10              I don't think that the rules require

      11   that we have formal votes and formal motions.

      12              So I'm trying to get ...

      13              (INAUDIBLE WHISPERING)

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That's what I

      15   thought.

      16              What I'm being advised by counsel is

      17   that, as chair, I can establish a work group, but

      18   it would be wise for me to ask whether or not

      19   people would have reservations to doing that --

      20   objections to doing that.

      21              And I could invoke Robert's Rules of

      22   order, but I am choosing not to do so.



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       1              So, unless I hear strong objections, I

       2   would like to establish a work group of this

       3   committee that will address issues related to oil

       4   spill recovery in the Gulf.

       5              And that later in the day we come back

       6   to have a more full discussion about what the

       7   exact charge of that committee should be.

       8              And that we hold on asking for

       9   volunteers to be on that work group, until we see

      10   what other issues we may be considering.

      11           (WORK GROUP ESTABLISHED CONCERNING

      12                    GULF OIL SPILL)

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Let's have a

      14   bit of a discussion about the other question that

      15   Peg raised, and I think Linda Rae also raised,

      16   relating to whether or not, despite the

      17   limitations we have in time and the limitations on

      18   our own expertise, are there some more immediate

      19   recommendations that we can be making to OSHA and

      20   NIOSH with regard to oil spill issues that may be

      21   helpful to the agencies?

      22              Peter?



                                                         172

       1              MR. DOOLEY:  Well, I know one.  And I

       2   don't know if this is being done currently, but to

       3   really be trying to do pilot studies, to identify

       4   what are the best possible protective measures

       5   that are possible and practical in the situation;

       6   and to be utilizing, you know, that as a model to

       7   find out what really works in the real world, and

       8   to replicate that in the various other areas, you

       9   know, of concern.

      10              And I'll just throw in the other one,

      11   is the idea of more peer -- you know, more

      12   training and education for various groups of

      13   workers that are able to be trainers for other

      14   groups of workers and also monitors, and being

      15   able to spread the available technology for

      16   protective measures.

      17              DR. MICHAELS:  If I could respond.

      18              I find that a very appealing idea,

      19   following up on Linda's point, that this is not

      20   [inaudible] to learn when crises like these occur

      21   and we're faced with situations out of the

      22   ordinary.  We should, obviously, grab those



                                                         173

       1   opportunities to learn for future activities.

       2              And perhaps, you know, OSHA isn't an

       3   organization with a great experience in

       4   evaluation, but we certainly have partners in

       5   health and human services who have worked on those

       6   issues.  And we've talked about that in other

       7   fora, so I think that would be a very worthwhile

       8   thing for us to pursue.

       9              I know if you wanted to spend more time

      10   on that to flesh out that as a recommendation, as

      11   things to look at, I think that would be very

      12   helpful to us.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, I think what

      14   I'd like to do -- and members of the committee can

      15   tell me if this sounds workable or not.

      16              I think that between now and the lunch

      17   break, we have 45 minutes, I think we can probably

      18   get out on the table a couple of areas in which we

      19   might be able to make specific recommendations by

      20   the end of the day.

      21              And if we can get two or three or four

      22   ideas out on the table, then it would be possible



                                                         174

       1   to assign a couple of people during the lunch

       2   break to try to do some wordsmithing with specific

       3   language, that we could then come back to later in

       4   the day.

       5              Does that sound like it might be a

       6   possible way to go?

       7              Let's try, then.

       8              Peter, why don't you pursue a little

       9   bit further the idea that you're suggesting.  I'm

      10   not sure I caught all of it.

      11              MR. DOOLEY:  Well, essentially, to --

      12   and I don't know whether this would be having --

      13   you know, who would set up the program.

      14              But basically, to have pilot programs

      15   that would be trying to identify the best

      16   available protective measures, including

      17   respiratory protection, that would be practical in

      18   the various tasks that various workers are doing.

      19              So it would be kind of a control

      20   banding kind of process, where you have workers

      21   who are doing such-and-such jobs, and the

      22   practical methods that they could be using for



                                                         175

       1   protection would be tried out and really kind of

       2   explored.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  So that's one

       4   possible area in which we would make a specific

       5   recommendation.

       6              Yes, Emory.

       7              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

       8              Just another quick comment.  There are

       9   a number of professional organizations out there,

      10   who I'm sure would readily step up to the plate

      11   and offer recommendations.  The American Society

      12   of Safety Engineers, the American Industrial

      13   Hygiene Association, System Safety Society, any

      14   number of other engineering societies who may also

      15   be able to provide recommendations on Prevention

      16   Through Design, for example.

      17              But they're out there, they have

      18   standing committees in many of the areas we've

      19   already talked about.  They developed standards

      20   for outside organizations such as ANSI.  So there

      21   are groups of experts out there.  Again, just kind

      22   of a recommendation to reach out to them and ask



                                                         176

       1   what they can provide.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Linda Rae?

       3              DR. MURRAY:  I don't want to lose what

       4   Peter said in the very beginning.  And I think I'm

       5   going to try and -- I think we've said some things

       6   earlier before the break, that could be made into

       7   recommendations, too.

       8              But Peter is talking specifically about

       9   an effort -- an intentional effort to look at

      10   different work methods of protection.

      11              Which I'm assuming would also include

      12   the work periods; right?

      13              MR. DOOLEY:  Sure.

      14              DR. MURRAY:  The other things, though,

      15   that could be part of that, but I want to make

      16   sure it's broader than that, I would like to

      17   recommend that we have British Petroleum, and

      18   whoever else is financially responsible, set up a

      19   pot of money for evaluation in general.

      20              You know, how effective was the public

      21   education?  How effective were these different

      22   methods?  What is the impact on communities?



                                                         177

       1              And I'm envisioning that pot to be

       2   handled by, you know, a committee of different

       3   government agencies and maybe some academic --

       4   NIH, I don't care who.

       5              So that we have both private, academic,

       6   as well as internal governmental researchers look

       7   at that, design the studies going forward, and

       8   have some resources to really try to evaluate how

       9   effective the response was, what's the ongoing

      10   impact, et cetera.

      11              So I don't know, I want to call that

      12   sort of pilot studies, or studies in general,

      13   evaluations or something like that.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me put one other

      15   possible recommendation on the table, coming from

      16   discussions we had earlier.  And this goes to the

      17   issue of work hours and fatigue-related problems.

      18              I've been trying to scribble some

      19   stuff, which isn't nearly articulated enough, but

      20   this would give you a general idea.

      21              I think we might be able to do

      22   something along these lines:  Indicate that there



                                                         178

       1   is substantial evidence that long hours of work,

       2   both measured on a daily and a weekly basis,

       3   especially under conditions of physical exertion

       4   and heat exposure, are known to be associated with

       5   injuries and other adverse health effects.

       6              And while NACOSH cannot at this time

       7   recommend specific limits on work hours, the

       8   committee feels, or believes, that 12 hours a day

       9   under these conditions, and 65 hours a week, or 60

      10   hours a week are excessive.

      11              And that, therefore, we would advise

      12   OSHA and NIOSH to expedite the establishment of

      13   specific rules and/or guidelines regarding work

      14   hours for Gulf workers and others, including,

      15   possibly -- and I throw this out with a big

      16   capital letters "possibly" -- the use of OSHA's

      17   authority to establish emergency temporary

      18   standards.

      19              So I throw that -- without getting hung

      20   up on the wording, I'm suggesting that we might

      21   come up with a recommendation of that sort.

      22              Peg Seminario?  Peg, and then --



                                                         179

       1              MS. SEMINARIO:  I would support that

       2   recommendation, but there are two areas that I

       3   want to just put forward here for consideration.

       4              It's really following up on what Peter

       5   was talking about, and trying to figure out a

       6   systematic way to try to tie some of this

       7   together.

       8              John Howard talked about how they're

       9   right now doing an HHE to look and to follow up on

      10   what happened with the workers becoming sick, and

      11   that they hope to do more HHEs.

      12              And one way to think about this is to

      13   recommend to NIOSH, either through an HHE process,

      14   or whatever process, that looking at these

      15   different areas of work and exposure, and in each

      16   of these do an assessment of the hazards, but do

      17   what you've said as well, looking at, by different

      18   operation here, what the exposures are, what the

      19   recommendations are, what practices are being

      20   used.

      21              And so I think it's really important

      22   that we try to figure out how to do some of these



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       1   initiatives, in ways that are linked back to an

       2   ongoing effort of the agencies to gather this

       3   information, and then to utilize it.

       4              And so I would make a recommendation

       5   that in looking at these five different, you know,

       6   major areas of work and operation here, that NIOSH

       7   do formal health hazard evaluations with a

       8   complete exposure assessment, and look at the

       9   issues that you've talked about as well.

      10              One other area that I think is really

      11   important here, and it's following up on what

      12   Linda talked about, is that's resources.

      13              I mean, right now these agencies are

      14   real being stretched very thin, and the President

      15   talked about how BP pays, is going to pay for

      16   everything.

      17              I mean, who's paying for what's

      18   happening right now?

      19              And having a sense of what it actually

      20   is going to take, and not only in terms of the

      21   agencies' existing resources, but what outside

      22   resources might be needed to assist you in this



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       1   effort?

       2              Because you can't do this all.  I mean,

       3   it would become the agency's entire activity for

       4   the next six months to a year.

       5              And all the other things that you're

       6   looking at doing will be swamped and overwhelmed,

       7   and so I think the resource issue is really,

       8   really key, in asking for the agencies to come up

       9   with an outline of what the resource needs are in

      10   this area, and getting, you know, getting that

      11   money in hand, and looking, as was suggested, some

      12   of the outside sources of help and assistance,

      13   because you certainly can't do this all alone.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg, I want to make

      15   sure I understand both of the two points you've

      16   raised.

      17              Am I correct in understanding that you

      18   are suggesting that NHHE, or HHEs, be the vehicles

      19   that would be used to accomplish the kinds of

      20   things that Peter suggested?

      21              MS. SEMINARIO:  That they could be

      22   folded into that, yes.  Yes.



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       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Secondly, with regard

       2   to resources, I would ask this of both you and

       3   Linda Rae.

       4              How does it -- I understand what you're

       5   saying about the need.  But keeping in mind the

       6   limitations that a committee like this has, what

       7   would be the nature of recommendations that we

       8   might make that would help the agencies to address

       9   those resource needs?

      10              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, one of the

      11   recommendations is, first of all, just to

      12   determine what they are, right?

      13              I mean, it would be very important for

      14   folks to understand what resources are there now,

      15   what they represent, and what is needed.  Right?

      16              I mean, there's -- and having a better

      17   sense of a needs assessment by both agencies in

      18   this area of what it is taking right now, and what

      19   it is going to take, in finding out what, you

      20   know, the people, the budget.

      21              And, if you don't have the people

      22   in-house now to do the job that is needed, you



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       1   know, where could you go to supplement those

       2   resources?

       3              And again, making sure that BP is

       4   paying for this as well.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  That helps.

       6              I think Roy Buchan had his hand up.

       7              DR. BUCHAN:  I have not, sitting here

       8   all morning, I have not heard one bad suggestion.

       9                       (LAUGHTER)

      10              DR. BUCHAN:  But I don't know if we can

      11   do it all.

      12              I would like Dr. Michaels to say what

      13   is the number one issue, as far as he is

      14   concerned, regarding the Gulf oil spill.

      15              I've put you on the spot.  I know it's

      16   very broad.

      17              But, you know, I would like to know

      18   what you would really like us to look into.

      19              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, I think there are

      20   two different tracks, and I think you're on both

      21   of them.

      22              The one we really do need help is



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       1   ensuring that our expectations of BP are correct

       2   in terms of worker protection, and that includes

       3   work hours, heat, respiratory protection,

       4   et cetera.

       5              But the other issue, which I think

       6   you're getting to, which is the more interesting

       7   one, is to think more boldly.

       8              And that's the role of an advisory

       9   committee, not to -- you know, to challenge us to

      10   do something differently, and to use this as an

      11   opportunity to break out of our normal patterns

      12   and say, what can we do to really advance worker

      13   health?

      14              And I think you're getting to that as

      15   well, and I'm very pleased that you're saying,

      16   here are some things.  The way you think about

      17   this isn't the way you normally would think about

      18   it.

      19              So, don't just to try to do more of the

      20   same endeavor, but actually do things differently

      21   in a totally different way.

      22              And I really hope you do that.  I'd



                                                         185

       1   like us to think boldly about our

       2   responsibilities, and I appreciate that.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well-dodged.

       4              UNKNOWN VOICE:  Thank you.

       5                       (LAUGHTER)

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Denise.

       7              But useful, nonetheless.

       8              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Hi.  Denise

       9   Pouget, Alexandria Fire.

      10              Forgive me for getting in the weeds,

      11   but I'm used to getting in the weeds managing

      12   firefighters.

      13              One of the things that we might be

      14   doing, and I'd just like to mention because I

      15   haven't heard it, one of the things that we battle

      16   with every day when we deal with hazardous

      17   materials incidents, house fires, building fires

      18   and so forth, is the appropriate rehabilitation as

      19   well of individuals, and putting limitations on

      20   those individuals.  It becomes very hard to

      21   manage.

      22              So we have a rehab procedure where -- I



                                                         186

       1   heard us talk about work hours.  But would it be

       2   beneficial to also specifically say that this is

       3   our rehabilitation time, and this is what we will

       4   expect during our rehabilitation time?

       5              I mean, we go as far as to make sure

       6   that -- in just a short eight to ten years ago, we

       7   used to give them, for rehab, coffee, they'd smoke

       8   cigarettes, sodas, chocolate bars, all the things

       9   you shouldn't do.

      10                       (LAUGHTER)

      11              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  But now we

      12   have granola bars, fruit, water, things like that,

      13   and we make sure that their blood pressure is

      14   within normal limits and things like that before

      15   we put a bottle on them and put them back in.

      16              I'm not suggesting exactly that.  I'm

      17   just saying, if we're looking at also exploring

      18   the work hours, I think the rehabilitation becomes

      19   a huge part of it.  Because I know we, in studying

      20   our line of duty dats, have determined a lot to

      21   have been from a lack of that.  So I just put that

      22   out there as a suggestion as one of the things we



                                                         187

       1   could explore more for an immediate...

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  We've had a number of

       3   hands up, I know.

       4              Bill.

       5              Who else wanted to say something?

       6   There should be more after that.

       7              Bill Borwegen.

       8              MR. BORWEGEN:  A question and a

       9   comment.  So, President Obama talked about sending

      10   a bill to BP, I guess retrospective for things

      11   that were already done.

      12              Did that include all of the work of

      13   OSHA, your salaries and fringe benefits for all

      14   your employees?

      15              DR. MICHAELS:  It's our understanding

      16   that OSHA will be reimbursed for the costs that

      17   we're incurring, including tremendous overtime

      18   costs of our OSHA staff down there.

      19              It's worth noting, though, that there's

      20   an opportunity cost to all of this.  We are not --

      21   you know, we've taken, you know, our limited human

      22   resources out of, at this point, Region 6 and



                                                         188

       1   Region 4, and we will be taking them from our Salt

       2   Lake City sanctuary and elsewhere around the

       3   country.

       4              So we're not doing all the other

       5   inspections we should be doing.  We're cutting

       6   back on our refund reinspections.  We're cutting

       7   back on other inspections.  And that cost cannot

       8   be reimbursed.  And that's just -- you know, those

       9   are inspections that are not being done.

      10              And so we have to think about that as

      11   well, and what that means.

      12              MR. BORWEGEN:  Okay.  So that was my

      13   question.

      14              And then my comment, I kind of

      15   summarized, I think, where we're at, and maybe

      16   expand upon it.

      17              But it sounds like what we're talking

      18   about is we need to prospectively estimate how

      19   much money we need for this evaluation, if

      20   we're -- it's kind of almost like a white paper of

      21   how we want to respond in a comprehensive manner,

      22   and then we need a budget and a work plan.



                                                         189

       1              We need to go tell BP that this is how

       2   much money we need for the next month, for the

       3   next six months, for the next year, for the next

       4   five years, to the degree that's feasible.

       5              And these are all the components that

       6   we, you know -- I mean, it sounds like that's what

       7   we're talking about.

       8              And I think OSHA would probably need to

       9   help us prospectively generate a budget and a work

      10   plan of how we respond, so that we get the money

      11   up front, so we can start bringing in these

      12   experts and everyone else, above and beyond just

      13   OSHA staff, in order to put together a

      14   comprehensive plan.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Who is the "we" that

      16   you're referring to?

      17                       (LAUGHTER)

      18              MR. BORWEGEN:  Well, I think it's a

      19   combination of the work group and OSHA staff

      20   thinking about, you know, what this -- again, what

      21   this evaluation piece would look like, and what

      22   the work tasks are.



                                                         190

       1              The focus groups of the workers

       2   bringing in the experts, you know --

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I can understand the

       4   committee making a recommendation to OSHA and

       5   NIOSH to do an assessment of resource needs, and

       6   then to act on that assessment.

       7              I'm not sure that we can go very far

       8   down the path of turning this subcommittee into an

       9   active operational group.

      10                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I know you're not

      12   really intending that, but we need to establish

      13   some clear boundaries here.

      14              MR. BORWEGEN:  Maybe I'm using the

      15   wrong terminology, but, you know, I think the

      16   concept is that to the degree we can do things in

      17   a proactive way, where we can anticipate how much

      18   money we're going to need and get the money up

      19   front, I think that's -- you know, that --

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That point is well

      21   taken.

      22              MS. SHORTALL:  The key --



                                                         191

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I --

       2              MS. SHORTALL:  I'd like to mention,

       3   probably the key term in this whole thing is

       4   NACOSH is an advisory committee.  It is limited to

       5   providing advice and recommendations of things the

       6   agency can do.  It is not authorized, chartered,

       7   to do independent action on its own.

       8              And, likewise, the word "advisory" has

       9   a secondary meaning, and that is it's not the

      10   national required of OSHA committee.

      11              OSHA can decide to act on your

      12   recommendations; and within their discretion could

      13   decide, no, we're not going to do that.

      14              So the limit you have is telling the

      15   agency what you would like the agency to do.

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, I know that

      17   Bill fully understands that.

      18              The only reason I raise this at all is

      19   to make sure that, as we move ahead, that we're

      20   careful with our use of language when we finally

      21   make recommendations.  And that's just a matter of

      22   attending to the detail later.



                                                         192

       1              Linda Rae?

       2              DR. MURRAY:  So, one of the challenges,

       3   when you're on an advisory committee, is to give

       4   advice that actually has meaning.  So, let me

       5   comment and make a suggestion in terms of formal

       6   recommendations that are made.

       7              I've heard two kinds of suggestions and

       8   they're often linked.

       9              So, Michael's last suggestion, which

      10   talked about saying something, without saying,

      11   "Here's an operational work shift that we

      12   recommend," but clearly saying something based on

      13   evidence and our expertise that says the present

      14   situation is too long.

      15              And then he suggested the emergency

      16   temporary standards.

      17              Actually, other people have suggested

      18   something specific and then how to fund it.

      19              It seems to me that at the end of this

      20   meeting we may have two kinds of recommendations:

      21   One, that are more narrowly directed at what NIOSH

      22   and OSHA routinely do; and the second, which



                                                         193

       1   reflects the situation we're in.

       2              I must say, I actually don't know if

       3   the President has officially declared a public

       4   health emergency.  He should, but we'll leave that

       5   alone.

       6              I'm not officially advising -- I'm not

       7   officially advising -- he does work for me, but --

       8                       (LAUGHTER)

       9              DR. MURRAY:  I can't, in this meeting,

      10   officially advise him, I guess.

      11              But let me suggest this:  That the

      12   other set of recommendation that we're toying

      13   with, in terms of doing things differently than we

      14   normally do, making BP pay for this, you know,

      15   perhaps having an attitude that we need to have

      16   emergency standards, temporary standards, I think

      17   reflects an underlying consensus that we haven't

      18   made explicit.  But let me explicitly make it and

      19   then allow people to disagree with it.

      20              I would suggest to you that we are

      21   facing a huge public health emergency and

      22   disaster, both in the environmental world, for



                                                         194

       1   workers and communities; and that the response,

       2   the appropriate professional response for health

       3   and safety professionals must recognize that

       4   emergency situation.

       5              And so in that spirit, there's a set of

       6   recommendations, or tools, that could be used in

       7   this time period that may not be limited to OSHA

       8   and NIOSH; for example, having British Petroleum

       9   pay for not only HHEs, but longer ranged studies.

      10              That doesn't say that OSHA and NIOSH

      11   are going to do all those studies.  In fact, they

      12   can't, and they probably shouldn't.

      13              The concept that the joint incident

      14   command ought to consider emergency temporary

      15   standards -- forget about three miles, one mile,

      16   you know, that there ought to be an approach like

      17   that in emergency temporary standards, about a

      18   whole range of things, which have to do with

      19   drinking water, how you would -- you know, that

      20   would include the FDA, et cetera.

      21              The concept that we don't -- the

      22   government at all levels does not possess the



                                                         195

       1   appropriate expertise for this particular

       2   emergency, which means British Petroleum needs to

       3   pay for experts outside of government to come in,

       4   at the behest of, in our case, OSHA and NIOSH, but

       5   the government, at large, you know, whatever these

       6   people are called, underwater engineers -- I don't

       7   even know what their job titles are, but, you

       8   know, whatever those expertise are that exists in

       9   other, you know, in private industry and other

      10   places.

      11              So I want to encourage us in our lunch

      12   break to think about our recommendations in those

      13   two ways:  One is specific things that we're very

      14   comfortable with that we talked about.  But the

      15   other is, tools to use, mechanisms to use in this

      16   emergency situation, which goes to some of these

      17   broader issues.

      18              And, you know, if the emergency

      19   command, or EPA, or the White House, or somebody

      20   else thought those recommendations were useful and

      21   wanted to implement them, great.  But, in any

      22   case, NIOSH and OSHA could still that have same



                                                         196

       1   kind of approach in terms of implementing those.

       2              So, as we think about it, if we could

       3   sort of highlight some of those broader tools for

       4   an emergency, because that's actually what we're

       5   in, and I think that's what we -- we have not

       6   effectively seen a response that reflects that

       7   emergency.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes, Joe.

       9              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

      10              When you were -- Dr. Michaels, when you

      11   were talking about diverting resources to the

      12   Gulf, the thought crossed my mind that I think it

      13   would be in your best interests, or OSHA's best

      14   interests to catalog all of that work that's not

      15   getting done.

      16              And at some point, even if you cannot

      17   direct bill BP, at some point they may be

      18   interested in sponsoring, say, a process safety

      19   effort, or something that is in line with your

      20   mission in these special effort areas that relates

      21   to the disaster.

      22              And it might create an opportunity to



                                                         197

       1   get back some of that work that you're losing

       2   because you're diverting resources to the Gulf.

       3              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, that's an

       4   interesting suggestion.  You know, we have a long

       5   relationship with BP around process safety

       6   management issues.  So perhaps we can return to

       7   that at some later point.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes, Susan.

       9              MS. RANDOLPH:  Yes.  I want to take off

      10   a little bit where Linda was talking.  And this

      11   really brings up who's really population address.

      12   And we've talked about workers, we've talked about

      13   volunteers, we've talked about other community.

      14              And it seems to fit that all workers,

      15   which includes volunteers, some of those are

      16   covered under OSHA, some of those are not covered

      17   by OSHA, but somehow their health and safety needs

      18   to be protected.

      19              You know, if there's some way to go

      20   across jurisdictions to enable that to happen,

      21   whether it's Coast Guard, or this or that, to

      22   enable that to happen, whether that deals with



                                                         198

       1   education, with exposures, with surveillance, you

       2   know, of those personal protective equipment,

       3   somehow that all of those people can be protected.

       4   I don't know.  And that's a little bit different,

       5   that's beyond this OSHA.  And I don't know how you

       6   can coordinate that across agencies.

       7              But, to me, that's something that

       8   really has to happen.  And if there's a way that

       9   we can, you know, take that forward, I would like

      10   to see that.

      11              DR. MICHAELS:  I should just say for

      12   the record, I think there's a great effort to do

      13   that.  I mean, we presented here really just what

      14   OSHA and NIOSH are doing, but, in fact, this is a

      15   broad interagency coordinated effort.

      16              The first weekend of the spill, I went

      17   down there on a Sunday night.  Over the weekend,

      18   we coordinated with NIOSH, with National Institute

      19   for Environmental Health Sciences, and EPA.  And

      20   we arrived together at the joint -- at the

      21   incident control center at Robert, and then to

      22   Houma together, as four public health agencies



                                                         199

       1   working together.  And we've been working very

       2   closely together ever since.

       3              So, in fact, that's going on, though,

       4   obviously, any recommendation that you give us to

       5   continue that, to strengthen it, or whatever,

       6   would certainly be welcome, but ...

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me just talk for

       8   a minute about what we're going to do for the rest

       9   of the day.

      10              If we are to make some recommendations

      11   to OSHA and NIOSH, and if we're going to set up a

      12   longer term work group, we have to do that by the

      13   end of the day, in public session.

      14              And so we have to balance two things

      15   here:  One is getting that work done, but at the

      16   same time, not having reached the end of the day,

      17   realizing that the only thing we've talked about

      18   is oil spill.

      19              So what I'm going to propose is that

      20   during lunch we make some assignments to prepare

      21   us to make those -- to reach those details by the

      22   end of the day.



                                                         200

       1              But that immediately after lunch, we

       2   have a discussion with Dr. Michaels, if you're,

       3   hopefully, still able to be here.  If not, then

       4   with other OSHA representatives have some

       5   discussion about other issues that OSHA feels are

       6   important for us to address.

       7              But while we need to do that, we're not

       8   going to be able to spend a lot of time on it.  We

       9   might be able to identify a couple other important

      10   areas where we want to establish other work

      11   groups.  Maybe, maybe not.

      12              But then we'll interrupt that

      13   discussion to give ourselves enough time to

      14   formulate the recommendations and to set up the

      15   work group.

      16              So, I may get tougher during the

      17   afternoon about cutting off comments and moving us

      18   along, because we've got to do that.

      19              Does that make sense to everybody?

      20              MR. BORWEGEN:  So are we going to cover

      21   the items that are listed at 10:15, for later this

      22   afternoon?  Is that the concept?



                                                         201

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  At least some of

       2   them.  I think that these are the items that OSHA

       3   wanted on the agenda, and I think the committee is

       4   willing to have discussion about any or all of

       5   them, as long as we don't run out of time.

       6              Okay.  We've got 15 minutes before

       7   lunch.  Let's take advantage of that time and come

       8   back to this question about a work group, and I'd

       9   like to entertain suggestions about what the

      10   charge to that work group should be.

      11              And then we'll assign somebody during

      12   lunch to actually write down the words in more

      13   detail.

      14              What would be the charge to such a work

      15   group?

      16              DR. BUCHAN:  We've got about thirty

      17   charges on the table.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, it may be a

      19   matter of taking several of them off.

      20              DR. BUCHAN:  Yeah.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Michael, as I --

      22                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)



                                                         202

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Jim Swartz.

       2              MR. SWARTZ:  I just wonder if we could

       3   cover a few items, such as maybe look at the

       4   strategy behind it, such as, will it be worker

       5   focus?  It will help us at least define what we

       6   want to get to.

       7              Short-term action, for example, worker

       8   focus, immediate recommendation, something like

       9   that, but at least we could fit the mold to the

      10   formal recommendation.

      11              So maybe three or four items that we

      12   are looking at, we can agree on.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  In a general sense,

      14   Dr. Michaels, would I be correct in understanding

      15   that you could use assistance from an ongoing work

      16   group that would address issues related to the oil

      17   spill as they evolve, and even including some that

      18   may not be apparent at this time.

      19              DR. MICHAELS:  Right.  We talked about

      20   protective equipment, we talked about work hours,

      21   we talked about training, all of those.  I would

      22   hope it would be inclusive, but there could be



                                                         203

       1   others as well.  Who knows what we'll come down

       2   to?

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So there would be --

       4              UNKNOWN VOICE:  [inaudible]

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  What's that?

       6              UNKNOWN VOICE:  What you just said.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Did somebody write it

       8   down?

       9                       (LAUGHTER)

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  It's on the tape.

      11              But in addition to that general charge,

      12   there were some suggestions that we know enough

      13   right now to have the group address some more

      14   specific issues.

      15              One was respiratory protection,

      16   although, I'm a little bit fearful that the need

      17   for the agencies to make decisions about

      18   respiratory protection may run faster than we can

      19   address them in a work group setting.

      20              DR. MICHAELS:  But it's worth noting

      21   that even if you don't get to something today,

      22   this situation will not disappear, and all advice



                                                         204

       1   will be helpful when it comes.

       2              Do what you can today, and then we'll

       3   take it from there.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So let me ask this

       5   question:  In addition to the general charge, and

       6   whatever specific attention the group might pay to

       7   respiratory protection, are there other specifics

       8   in this area that we ought to single out at this

       9   time?

      10              Yes.  Tim Key.

      11              DR. KEY:  Tim Key.  I would say

      12   communication to the public encouraging methods of

      13   communication to the public.  And also

      14   communication amongst the various agencies, EPA,

      15   public health services, and NIOSH and OSHA, so

      16   that there are no barriers or surprises.

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.

      18              Other thoughts on that?

      19              Peter.  Peter Dooley.

      20              MR. DOOLEY:  Yeah.  I mean, just two

      21   areas is to be trying to focus on the best

      22   available control technology that's available to



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       1   protect workers, as well as the idea of more

       2   advanced worker education and training, maybe at

       3   different levels, so that some workers can be

       4   trained to train others, and peer training.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me try to

       6   summarize where we are and make assignments for

       7   the lunch hour.

       8              I have written down what might be four

       9   recommendations.  I'm not sure that I got all

      10   these right, but I have in my notes what appear to

      11   be four, and I'd like to assign some individuals

      12   to try to do some wording on each of these.

      13              The first is the recommendation that

      14   Peter Dooley and Peg Seminario together made that

      15   would advise OSHA and NIOSH to undertake pilot

      16   studies, including health hazard evaluations, that

      17   would address appropriate protective measures for

      18   workers who are exposed to potential hazards in

      19   the Gulf.

      20              I'm not at all sure -- I'm sure that

      21   what I said doesn't fully characterize what the

      22   recommendation would be, but I'm going to ask



                                                         206

       1   Peter if, during lunch, he would try to come up

       2   with some language that the committee could

       3   consider after lunch.

       4              The second recommendation was the one

       5   that I began to articulate having to do with work

       6   hours and fatigue.  And I'll try to work on some

       7   language during lunch on that one.

       8              The third one was the recommendation

       9   that Peg Seminario and Linda Rae Murray made along

      10   the lines of advising the agencies to do a more

      11   formal assessment of resource needs, and then to

      12   pursue those needs that were identified.

      13              And I would like to ask Peg, if during

      14   lunch you would try to write up some wording for

      15   that.

      16              And then the fourth area was a more

      17   general one that Linda Rae Murray raised, and I'm

      18   not sure if this becomes a fourth recommendation,

      19   or if this becomes an introductory statement that

      20   puts the others in context.

      21              But it was in -- I think I got the

      22   ballpark here, but I'm not sure of the details.



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       1              But this would be a statement for

       2   advice about the need for broader tools in the --

       3   to ensure a full public health response to

       4   national emergencies of the sort that we may be

       5   facing here.

       6              And again, I'm not sure that I got that

       7   quite right.  But, Linda, if you would take a

       8   crack during lunch hour at getting some more

       9   specific language, that would help.

      10              Then, in addition to the specific

      11   recommendations, we made a little bit of progress

      12   a couple minutes ago about articulating a charge

      13   for an ongoing work group, that would be both

      14   general with regard to providing the agencies with

      15   some assistance and advice to address evolving

      16   needs, as well as to provide some advice about

      17   some specifics that we already know need

      18   attention, including respiratory protection,

      19   communication issues, public communication, and

      20   control technologies.

      21              And I need somebody who would be

      22   willing to take a crack, during the lunch hour, at



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       1   writing up such a charge.  I'm not sure who would

       2   like to take that one on.

       3              MS. SHORTALL:  You're the chair.  You

       4   should write that up.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I already gave myself

       6   an assignment.

       7              MS. SHORTALL:  You still should, as

       8   chair.

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I could, as chair, do

      10   that, but -- and when we make the assignment, it

      11   will be me who makes the assignment.  But I'm

      12   asking for some help in preparing me to do that.

      13              DR. BUCHAN:  Would you mind repeating

      14   that?

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  We have agreed --

      16              DR. BUCHAN:  I know it was kind of

      17   vague.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I have decided, and

      19   we have agreed, that we will establish a work

      20   group that will address over an unspecified period

      21   of time evolving needs that emerge in the face of

      22   the Gulf oil spill.



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       1              And we'll address in as timely a

       2   fashion as we can some of the specific concerns

       3   that the agencies have brought to us, including

       4   choices of respiratory protection and other

       5   personal protection; communication with workers

       6   and the public; and attention to the best

       7   available control technologies.

       8              Maybe I just did it.  Maybe I just

       9   articulated it.  Did that basically do it?

      10              DR. MURRAY:  Sounds good to me.

      11              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  I'll try to do

      12   something.  Can you say that last part again?

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, I think

      14   maybe --

      15              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Communication

      16   and other -- you worded it so well.

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'm looking at the

      18   folks with the ear phones on.  Will we be able,

      19   when we break, to pull some of that language off

      20   of the tape -- to listen to the language on the

      21   tape?

      22              So, Denise, there -- Denise, you can go



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       1   to the table there, you know, during the lunch

       2   break and get it.  And then we'll come back and

       3   we'll work on the details after lunch.

       4              DR. BUCHAN:  Okay.  You're talking also

       5   about something that would last until the time to

       6   assist in future incidents?

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  No, not right now.  I

       8   think that would be a stretch.

       9              DR. BUCHAN:  Okay.  Okay.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Other thoughts before

      11   we break for lunch?

      12              Okay.  For those who don't know, there

      13   is a pretty good cafeteria on the sixth floor of

      14   this building.  There's a little snack bar on the

      15   fourth floor.  And if you don't mind working up a

      16   sweat, you can run down the street and there are

      17   places not too far from here.  But I'd strongly

      18   advise sticking in the building and being back

      19   here in an hour.

      20              We have an hour and five minutes for

      21   lunch.

      22



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       1                  (LUNCH RECESS TAKEN)

       2

       3                         * * *

       4

       5                  (AFTERNOON SESSION)

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'd like to reconvene

       7   today's session of the National Advisory Committee

       8   on Occupational Safety and Health.

       9              All members of the committee are

      10   present, and Dr. David Michaels continues to be

      11   here with us.

      12              Dr. Michaels has limited time this

      13   afternoon, but has come back to at least put on

      14   the table for our consideration some of the other

      15   issues that OSHA believes that the committee might

      16   address over time.

      17              And then when Dr. Michaels leaves,

      18   we'll return to consideration of the oil spill

      19   recovery issues.

      20              Dr. Michaels.

      21                 (INTRODUCTORY REMARKS

      22                CONCERNING OTHER TOPICS)



                                                         212

       1              DR. MICHAELS:  Thank you so much,

       2   Dr. Silverstein.  I apologize for having to leave

       3   for part of the meeting this afternoon, and I hope

       4   to be able to come back later in the day.

       5              A number of pressing issues regarding

       6   the Gulf have come up, and I'll be leaving this

       7   evening, going down there.

       8              So what I thought I'd do is lay out at

       9   least some of the issues that OSHA is grappling

      10   with, which we hope you'll be able to provide us

      11   with some advice.

      12              Obviously, I think there are others

      13   that we have great interest in, there are others

      14   which we think you probably have great interest

      15   in, so you need to limit your conversations to

      16   these, though these are ones where we have

      17   particular -- we feel really are ripe, and they're

      18   pressing for your help.

      19              So I'll spend a couple minutes on each

      20   one, and maybe answer just a couple of questions,

      21   and then return the agenda to you.

      22              The first on our agenda here, the



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       1   outreach to vulnerable and hard-to-reach workers.

       2              We spoke a little bit on that this

       3   morning, but it's very much a focus of the

       4   department.  We are concerned that OSHA has very

       5   successful programs in certain sectors of the

       6   economy; certain types of workers, certain

       7   industries, certain types of employers, but in

       8   fact, we rarely get to the workplaces employing

       9   some of the more vulnerable workers.  We don't

      10   know how to reach them, they don't know their

      11   rights under OSHA.

      12              And so we have to think about that, and

      13   we recognize we have to approach it from many

      14   different levels.  We have to approach it from

      15   getting materials out and getting public

      16   information out about OSHA to them, about hazards

      17   and about what their rights are, and we have to

      18   use alternative means to getting to workers, and

      19   to reaching their employers as well.

      20              And, certainly, small business -- very

      21   small businesses often know very little about OSHA

      22   and are afraid to ask.



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       1              So how do we reach out to these

       2   workers?  How do we get them the information they

       3   need?  How do we ensure their rights are

       4   protected?

       5              One component of that is also in our

       6   enforcement programs, and how do we -- how do we

       7   target our enforcement efforts to reach those high

       8   hazard employers where vulnerable workers work?

       9   And so all of these are still on the table.

      10   They're things we're wrestling with.

      11              Some of you may know, we use a system

      12   based on this thing called the "Dodge Reports" for

      13   targeting construction inspections.  This is based

      14   on information gathered from permits, you know,

      15   filings usually with county or local building

      16   departments.  We're able reach certain types of

      17   jobs that way, but not others.

      18              Jobs that day laborers take, I think we

      19   have particular difficulty reaching.  Jobs that

      20   are mobile, we have particular difficulty

      21   reaching.  So we're very interested in thinking

      22   about how to reach those employers, and how to



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       1   reach those workers.

       2              Just as an aside, you should probably

       3   know that one of the initiatives of the department

       4   right now, and actually the whole administration,

       5   is on this classification.

       6              We think that's another issue that

       7   often goes on in some parts of the economy, where

       8   workers are not considered regular employees and

       9   where they're paid a regular wage, with taxes

      10   taken out or taxes paid, and Workers' Compensation

      11   payments made to them.

      12              And that, of course, is another issue

      13   around occupational health.  If people are not in

      14   the Workers' Compensation system and they're

      15   injured, you know, there's no one other than

      16   themselves, their family, or, you know, the social

      17   safety net to pay for their medical costs as well.

      18              So these are all things we're trying to

      19   think about.  Any advice that you have for us on

      20   reaching out to these workers and these employers

      21   would be very helpful.

      22              The second issue is one in some ways we



                                                         216

       1   only need, I think from this group, sort of

       2   limited advice, about promoting injury and illness

       3   prevention programs, not because you don't --

       4   aren't very thoughtful of this issue, but we've

       5   started a regulatory process, which we've had our

       6   first stakeholder meeting last week.

       7              We have another one scheduled in Dallas

       8   shortly.  We will have several more public

       9   meetings.  Then we'll issue a proposed rule.

      10   There will be plenty of opportunity for people to

      11   have input.

      12              So we're eager for your input, but we

      13   don't necessarily want to spend the time today on

      14   that, because there will be lots of opportunity to

      15   do that.

      16              Within the issue of promoting injury

      17   and illness prevention programs, separate from the

      18   regulation, an issue of great concern to us is how

      19   we, as OSHA, and how employers, and how workers

      20   deal with what we might call emerging hazards.

      21              Now, when we think of emerging hazards,

      22   we think of nanomaterials, perhaps, or some new



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       1   chemicals.  But, in fact, in the OSHA world, many

       2   emerging hazards have been around for quite a long

       3   time, because, as we discussed earlier today, our

       4   permissible exposure limits are outdated and

       5   limited.

       6              And so there are many chemicals that

       7   have been around the workplace for quite a few

       8   years that we might think of as emerging because

       9   OSHA has no formal way to deal with them.

      10              So I think the question we have for you

      11   is, when we see information, when there is new

      12   information or existing information about the

      13   hazards of the chemicals for which we have no

      14   standard, what should we do about that?

      15              And within the context of our plan to

      16   protect and prevent framework of asking employers

      17   to provide workplaces safe for recognized hazards,

      18   and these are recognized hazards and we have no

      19   standard on them, we can use the general duty

      20   clause, but we prefer to think there must be more

      21   robust ways to address that problem.

      22              The third issue we'd like you to



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       1   discuss is in some ways the most challenging to

       2   OSHA right now, which is the question of safety

       3   incentive programs.

       4              And there are a lot of different ways

       5   we can describe this, but it's clear that there's

       6   a widespread use of programs that have, depending

       7   on how you look at them, that have -- ideally,

       8   they have the goal of promoting safe workplaces,

       9   but they often focus on behavior and safe

      10   behavior.

      11              But, to me, they're very much

      12   structured in ways that, rather than promote safe

      13   behavior, what they really do is they discourage

      14   injured workers from reporting their injuries.

      15              And we see that over and over and over

      16   again.  And employers have come to me and said,

      17   look, here's our program, or in some cases, cases

      18   where we disavow this program, because we see the

      19   programs of this program.

      20              A common type program of this nature is

      21   a program that provides a very modest benefit at

      22   the end of a period of time, if a group of workers



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       1   have no reportable injuries.

       2              You know, when we had our big Latino

       3   worker health and safety meeting in Houston, I was

       4   talking about this, and the workers in the hotel

       5   said, yes, at the end of the week, if no one's

       6   injured, we share a pizza.

       7              And if someone is injured, depending on

       8   the program, either no one gets pizza, or the one

       9   individual worker who's injured doesn't get pizza.

      10              Now, that's a very modest reward.  But,

      11   in fact, even modest rewards are sufficient for

      12   peer pressure to work on individual workers to

      13   discourage them from reporting an injury.

      14              And, certainly, if that works for a

      15   piece of pizza, think about if it works for your

      16   chance to share in a lottery for a pickup truck,

      17   which is the other end of the scale of rewards.

      18              We view that as problematic.  We think

      19   that it has helped warp the reported injury rates

      20   that we see.  And it has a big effect on

      21   workplaces, because if the injuries aren't

      22   reported, they can never be investigated.  And if



                                                         220

       1   they can never be investigated, they can't be

       2   prevented.

       3              So we think it's very important to

       4   discourage programs that discourage injury

       5   reporting.  And we'd like help getting there.

       6              When we talk to our solicitors, we ask,

       7   well, what aspects of this are OSHA violations?

       8   We're still wrestling with this question.  It's

       9   very clear that if a worker is injured, and

      10   reports the injury as told, okay, you don't get to

      11   share that pizza, that is an 11(c) violation.

      12              And as such, if that worker were to

      13   file a complaint with OSHA within the appropriate

      14   period of time, we could investigate it, and,

      15   theoretically, cite that employer.

      16              But the existence of these programs may

      17   themselves not be an OSHA violation, but I'm

      18   saying we have to think about it.

      19              But, more importantly, I think it's

      20   very important for us to get the information out

      21   to employers to show that programs designed this

      22   way are to their detriment.  And they're obviously



                                                         221

       1   to the detriment of workers who don't get Workers'

       2   Compensation benefits if they're injured.  And in

       3   the long run, that may have some significant costs

       4   to them.

       5              And to the detriment of OSHA, we can't

       6   figure out what's going on in workplaces.

       7              So we want to wrestle with that

       8   question:  How do we check it out?  How should we

       9   approach it through regulations?  Should we

      10   approach it through education?  How do we --

      11              And the hardest question, how do we

      12   draw the line between the program that encourages

      13   safety versus the one that discourages injury

      14   reporting?

      15              I've spoken in public meetings and web

      16   chats on this.  And certainly OSHA encourages

      17   programs where safe behavior -- if it's a

      18   behavioral-based program, if safe behavior is

      19   rewarded, if when a supervisor sees a worker doing

      20   things safely, or abate a hazard, gives them a

      21   reward, say, you know, a raffle ticket for that

      22   pickup truck, we think that's a good thing.



                                                         222

       1              But we don't want to see a program

       2   where people have rewards or benefits taken from

       3   them because they have reported an injury, because

       4   that reporting an injury -- because failure to

       5   report an injury is a serious problem to us.

       6              We also know that this is very much

       7   linked to economic incentives and supervisors and

       8   higher level management.  People are often given

       9   bonuses on the base of reportable injury rates.

      10              We know that employers and contractors

      11   can get contracts or lose contracts based on

      12   injury rates.

      13              So it's quite a complicated issue to

      14   say, well, let's just let all injuries get

      15   reported, and come what may, because we run into

      16   some real roadblocks when we do that, because

      17   there are incentives on keeping those numbers low.

      18              It's a very tough issue.  And we would

      19   love your assistance in addressing this.

      20              And, finally, we're very interested in

      21   the issue of moving into electronic record-keeping

      22   for all employers.  The OSHA Act requires us to



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       1   collect information and to actually require

       2   employers to collect information about injuries

       3   and illnesses.

       4              OSHA receives reports of fatalities,

       5   and what we call "catastrophes," three

       6   hospitalizations.

       7              The OSHA data initiative collects

       8   aggregated OSHA log information, not information

       9   about the specific illness or injury, but the

      10   total number, and the total number of work hours

      11   at the end of the year, or actually, in the next

      12   year, for targeting.

      13              A limited number -- a limited

      14   percentage of our inspections are based on those

      15   targets, but we do quite a bit of inspections

      16   based on that information, but that targeting

      17   program has its limits.

      18              If you're injured on the job today, it

      19   goes into the log.  If it's aggregated next

      20   spring, and sent to OSHA, it will be another year

      21   after that by the time it gets into our targeting

      22   system.



                                                         224

       1              And so while it's still useful and we

       2   find those inspections we make on the basis of

       3   those rates quite useful, it still isn't an

       4   efficient way to identify workplaces with high

       5   injury risk.

       6              In addition, most employers do not send

       7   us information electronically or at all, and we

       8   know that many employers still keep these records

       9   by hand.

      10              It occurred to me, as an

      11   epidemiologist, that investigations of injuries,

      12   not just individual injuries, but the patterns of

      13   injuries, is a very useful way to understand

      14   what's going on in workplaces and preventing

      15   injuries from occurring.

      16              And so we would like to create a tool

      17   that will be used by employers to understand

      18   what's going on in their workplaces, and that

      19   would help OSHA target its resources better.

      20              And again, we're starting on a

      21   regulatory process on that.

      22              But I think there's some larger



                                                         225

       1   questions that, if you feel like wrestling with,

       2   would be interesting.

       3              For example, in the three-plus million

       4   injuries per year, would it be useful for OSHA to

       5   receive those reports at the end of the year, or

       6   even more frequently?  And what would we do with

       7   that information?  Or who else could use that

       8   information?  It's an interesting and tough

       9   question.

      10              So those are four issues that are, you

      11   know, on our very short-term agenda, we'd like

      12   some assistance on.

      13              Obviously, as I said, there are others

      14   that are of great interest to us.  We're working,

      15   as we talked a little bit this morning, on what to

      16   do about chemical exposures in the PELs, and Peg

      17   raised that.

      18              I didn't put that on the list, because

      19   we have a process, we have an internal task force

      20   looking at the PELs.  And they've reached out to a

      21   number of stakeholders, and we'll have a series of

      22   discussions with them.  So we hope to call on some



                                                         226

       1   other resources, advisory resources to help us

       2   move that forward.

       3              So I didn't put that on this list,

       4   though, obviously, if you have thoughts about

       5   that, that would be useful, too.  But that's a

       6   lower priority to us right now, because we have

       7   some other people working on it.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

       9              Linda Rae Murray.

      10                (COMMENTS AND DISCUSSION

      11                CONCERNING OTHER ISSUES)

      12              DR. MURRAY:  A quick response.

      13              One is, let me just say this, on the

      14   record-keeping and modernization of

      15   record-keeping, I think it's critical that OSHA

      16   and the rest of the public health be clearly and

      17   appropriately represented on these health

      18   information exchanges that are going forward, not

      19   just under health reform, but as part of that

      20   process.

      21              And those efforts at the moment are

      22   focused very much on individual clinical records



                                                         227

       1   and sharing between different hospitals and

       2   doctors and stuff, but really, the public

       3   health -- and even though public health is sort of

       4   mentioned, I have not seen nationally that much

       5   involvement in a broad sense from public health.

       6              So that this issue, not only with

       7   injuries, but, frankly, exposures -- if you ask me

       8   what information should be there, this should be

       9   there.

      10              If a patient comes to see me, I should

      11   be able to look at their record and realize that

      12   they got an X-ray, you know, last month, maybe in

      13   an emergency room, but also see that they had an

      14   industrial injury, and what their exposures may

      15   have been over the past, you know, X number of

      16   years, if I'm going to clinically appropriately

      17   treat that patient.

      18              And then, obviously, from a population

      19   point of view, our ability to recognize clusters

      20   of injury and disease, and to look at that, I

      21   think, is wide open.

      22              So I don't think we should look at it



                                                         228

       1   as only making electronic our present paper

       2   systems.  That should happen.  But then we really

       3   have to ask ourselves, how can safety and health

       4   information be an active and important part of

       5   these HIEs, along with, you know, other stuff.

       6              The second thing I wanted to say, and I

       7   would hope, Mike, that we could maybe, if we

       8   planned for the next year, we could find a way to

       9   make this part of the agenda and ask ourselves how

      10   to do it.

      11              Mike said earlier, you know, if we keep

      12   doing things the way we've always done them, we're

      13   not going to be -- we're going to be where we

      14   always have been, which is not where we want to

      15   be.

      16              So I think intentionally calling for a

      17   discussion, a national discussion on a paradigm

      18   shift, how can we do this better?  You know, how

      19   can we think about, you know, promoting safety

      20   better than our present center programs?

      21              How can we think about regulating

      22   exposure better than our one-by-one, you know,



                                                         229

       1   regulation of this-or-that exposure level?

       2              And that that requires not only an

       3   intentional meeting to do that, but I would urge

       4   us to get some people who are not health and

       5   safety experts.  I don't know, some historians,

       6   some poets, somebody who thinks differently than

       7   us that can come in and help us sort of shake up

       8   our present paradigm.

       9              So a number of the things you

      10   mentioned, I think, might be informed by that kind

      11   of exercise.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That's great.

      13              Roy Buchan.

      14              DR. BUCHAN:  You are thinking out of

      15   the box.  I like that.  Okay?

      16              Roy Buchan, Colorado State.

      17              In reaching vulnerable and

      18   hard-to-reach employees from agriculture, a large

      19   portion of the work community are migrant workers

      20   or temporary workers.

      21              I have written something here that --

      22              Mike, I'm sorry, I said I'd discuss



                                                         230

       1   this later, but it came up.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Go ahead.

       3              DR. BUCHAN:  This is something we can

       4   discuss as a recommendation.  Historically,

       5   agriculture has resisted enforcement, so this is

       6   what I am suggesting:

       7              OSHA should address the agricultural

       8   sector by hiring or designating an industrial

       9   hygienist and a safety consultant in each state

      10   consultation program in the nation, to perform

      11   on-site consultation surveys in occupational

      12   health and safety educational programs.

      13              Each of these professionals should have

      14   no other work assignments outside of the

      15   agricultural sector.

      16              At one point I was director of an

      17   ag. center.  I was also director of the

      18   consultation program.

      19              With the agreement to our regional

      20   administrator at that time, I did this for two

      21   years.  It was very successful, except the workers

      22   involved had difficulty running back and forth



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       1   between agriculture and other kinds of businesses.

       2   So that's why I put in the statement, "No other

       3   assignments outside of agriculture."

       4              And I'm throwing on the table for

       5   people to consider.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  All right.

       7              I think I have, and I will continue to

       8   encourage lots of ideas to be put on the table,

       9   with the recognition that there may be -- and this

      10   may or may not be true for the one you just made,

      11   but it's an appropriate time to say this.

      12              There may very well be some excellent

      13   recommendations that we want to act on, that are

      14   put on the table today, but that we're not going

      15   to have time to adequately discuss and act on.

      16              I want to be sure that ideas like the

      17   one you just mentioned, if not that one itself,

      18   not be lost.  If, in fact, we decide that we're

      19   not going to act on that particular recommendation

      20   or others, let's put them -- you know, we'll keep

      21   them on a list, and we'll come back to them for

      22   continued consideration.



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       1              DR. BUCHAN:  Okay.  Mike, the only

       2   reason I did that was the difficult to reach

       3   workers, is why I brought it up.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And it's fine.  I'm

       5   encouraging that.  I'm glad you did it, and I'm

       6   not even making a judgment about that particular

       7   recommendation.  It was just a good opportunity to

       8   make that general point about the way we conduct

       9   the work.

      10              So, thank you.

      11              DR. BUCHAN:  Okay.  I appreciate that.

      12              MR. BORWEGEN:  Bill Borwegen, SEIU.  I

      13   wanted to talk quickly about safety incentive

      14   programs, and then the injury and illness

      15   prevention rule, which I think is the most

      16   important thing OSHA should be working on.

      17              These safety incentive programs are

      18   very insidious, a very nefarious attempt to reduce

      19   reporting.  And I wish that, as a country, somehow

      20   we could figure out a way so that the injury and

      21   illness rates didn't have the significance that

      22   they -- they don't really deserve the level of



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       1   significance that people give to them.

       2              And, unfortunately, a lot of companies,

       3   that's how they rate their health and safety

       4   staff, based on how getting this number down.

       5              I'm wondering if there's a way -- I

       6   think, first of all, I think the idea of an 11(c)

       7   with a good press release, you know, would do a

       8   lot to remind employers that they shouldn't be

       9   using these programs to take away benefits from

      10   workers, and, you know, that it is an 11(c)

      11   violation if somebody doesn't get a piece of

      12   pizza.

      13              But I'm wondering also if we could do

      14   something more progressive, because as you know,

      15   injury and illness rates, it's a lagging

      16   indicator, and I'm wondering if we could do

      17   something with a leading indicator, like getting

      18   employers to report near misses.

      19              And I know there are employers out

      20   there that are doing near miss reporting, and I'm

      21   wondering if we could partner with maybe a VPP

      22   employer, and get them to, you know, share their



                                                         234

       1   program with us on how they capture near miss

       2   data, and try -- and again, to try to change this

       3   paradigm, as Dr. Murray talked about, to try to

       4   get employers to start looking at near misses as

       5   an alternative to recording injuries and

       6   illnesses.

       7              And the percentage of near misses that,

       8   you know, identify hazards that get corrected, I

       9   think, is a much more valid measurement of -- give

      10   health and safety directors of companies much

      11   better information to operate under to make the

      12   workplace truly safer.

      13              On the injury and illness prevention

      14   program standards, again, I think this is the

      15   first standard OSHA should have issued in 1970.

      16   I've always felt that way.

      17              We want to know, as a committee, as

      18   this advisory committee, how we can help expedite

      19   this process.

      20              I believe I'm speaking for the

      21   committee, and maybe I'm not; but if anybody

      22   disagrees, let me know.



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       1              But, you know, can you give us a

       2   timeline on -- or is it too premature to give us a

       3   timeline?

       4              Because, you know, again, sometimes

       5   these windows of opportunity don't last as long as

       6   we would like them to.  And so I don't know if you

       7   could give us a -- I know there's so many

       8   regulatory hurdles, but is there anything this

       9   committee can do to try to expedite the process?

      10              DR. MICHAELS:  I can't think of any,

      11   offhand.  I will certainly think about them.

      12              You know, we are having our stakeholder

      13   meetings, we find them very useful.  We're getting

      14   comments from different sectors.  We'll be soon

      15   having a small business panel through the SBREFA

      16   act.

      17              In addition, we have to do a survey to

      18   look at technological economic -- well, economic

      19   feasibility, in this case.  And that's going to

      20   take some time.  So I can't -- I can't go much

      21   beyond that.

      22              But these are some steps we do before



                                                         236

       1   we even issue a proposed rule.  So we're working

       2   as expeditiously as we can on those requirements.

       3   And we think they're useful, we learn from them,

       4   and we'll see.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  This is Michael

       6   Silverstein.

       7              Given the fact that there is a lot of

       8   activity that you initiated on injury and illness

       9   programs, including a lot of stakeholder

      10   involvement, I think that Bill raised the

      11   appropriate question:  Is there something -- is

      12   there a unique contribution that this committee

      13   can make over and above what's already in process?

      14              And I'm not sure that I --

      15              DR. MICHAELS:  Well, I'll think about

      16   that.

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yeah.  I think we all

      18   need to think about that.  But we got to be able

      19   to answer that question before just jumping into

      20   it.

      21              I think Peg had her hand up, Denise

      22   did, Peter did.



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       1              So, Peg Seminario.

       2              MS. SEMINARIO:  To follow up on this

       3   point, a number of these issues are obviously -- I

       4   mean, they're related.  And I would just encourage

       5   the agency to think about how they interrelate.

       6              Looking at the injury and illness

       7   prevention program, it's my view that, you know,

       8   one of the reasons why we have these safety

       9   incentive programs coming up, in looking at worker

      10   behavior, is because there was such a vacuum and

      11   lack of activity in looking at exposures and

      12   hazards, so it sort of went dormant on that.

      13              And in that vacuum, this became the

      14   easy surrogate for an easy way to deal with safety

      15   and health, was just to go out and look at reports

      16   of injuries and trying to keep those reports --

      17   keep those reports down.

      18              So I would recommend to the agency, in

      19   looking at your notice that you got for your

      20   stakeholder meetings, there's nothing in the

      21   notice that talks about reporting of injuries --

      22   injury prevention.



                                                         238

       1              That's not linked to this, and, to me,

       2   that's sort of a fundamental part of an injury and

       3   illness prevention program, is looking at those

       4   reports, and collection of that information, and

       5   evaluation of the data.

       6              So it may be useful as part of your

       7   rule-making on injury and illness prevention

       8   programs to be looking at the whole issue of how

       9   the incentive programs, [inaudible] codes fit in,

      10   because that is part and parcel of the safety and

      11   health program to allow for some more robust

      12   comment on it, examples, a discussion.

      13              Because again, you've got to figure out

      14   that in a relationship.  And I think that's the

      15   forum, you know, in which to do it, so ...

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Denise?

      17              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Hi.  Denise

      18   Pouget, Alexandria Fire.

      19              I comment on the injury and illness

      20   prevention, and then the electronic reporting or

      21   injury reporting.  And I'll try not to be too

      22   lengthy.  I'm give you the Reader's Digest



                                                         239

       1   version.  But if you're interested in talking

       2   later, I'd love to talk to you about it.

       3              I had a unique experience in my career,

       4   when I was with Montgomery County Fire for three

       5   years, being their safety chief.  And we had a

       6   program that one of our firefighters created

       7   called "risk management accountability program."

       8   And it was an electronic form of reporting.

       9              But the unique thing about it was when

      10   the information was in there, you could ask RMAP

      11   anything, and it would go back and look and search

      12   for related root cause analysis and so forth.

      13              So over an employee's lifespan, we

      14   could find out if they were a safe driver, how

      15   many accidents have they had at-fault, or, you

      16   know, non-fault accidents, you know, how many

      17   injuries they had, tie that all together.  And it

      18   was just an easy way to kind of cross-reference

      19   all the information about the employee.

      20              So we knew their safety behavior, if

      21   you will.  So that was really a great program.

      22   And I can tell you, when we had that in full



                                                         240

       1   force, and then we dovetailed training of the

       2   officers, and holding the officers accountable for

       3   their firefighters' safety and actions, then we

       4   saw in one year over a million dollar savings in

       5   indemnity insurance.  So it did work.

       6              So subsequently, I got to be

       7   International Association of Fire Chief Safety

       8   Officer of the Year.  But it wasn't me; it was the

       9   safety staff.

      10              So that did work.

      11              DR. MURRAY:  [inaudible]

      12              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Pardon?  No.

      13                       (LAUGHTER)

      14              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  But I mean,

      15   like I said, I don't take full credit for it, but

      16   what worked about it was, it was kind of a change

      17   of culture, if you will, and it was not just

      18   putting things in an electronic format, but it was

      19   utilizing that data.  That program could make

      20   graphs, and we could do tracking of root cause

      21   analysis, and so forth.

      22              And, like I said, if you want more



                                                         241

       1   information about that, I have it.

       2              And there's also something called

       3   "FirefighterNearMiss.com."  When you were talking

       4   about near misses, again, we lose over 110 people

       5   a year in the line of duty deaths.  And this

       6   program is sponsored by -- it's all the

       7   International Association of Fire Chiefs, IAFF,

       8   and the Volunteer Combination Officers

       9   Association.

      10              And I believe it's grant-funded, also.

      11   And what it does is it's a database, you can go to

      12   FirefighterNearMiss.com, and we encourage

      13   firefighters to go on and utilize -- these are

      14   stories told in other firefighters' words.  It's

      15   anonymous reporting so you can't get in trouble --

      16   to go on and look at these actions that got these

      17   folks in trouble.

      18              And we've been utilizing it now, it's

      19   been probably four, five years.  And many

      20   departments have policies that you have to, you

      21   know, we're encouraging, an "if we've seen it, you

      22   have to report it" kind of thing.



                                                         242

       1              But again, it's a non-punitive way of

       2   doing it, and it was designed on the FAA's

       3   database that they did years ago in all of their

       4   reporting.

       5              So anyway, that has worked, and it

       6   seems to work with a multitiered approach with the

       7   training and holding the officers responsible --

       8   or the supervisors responsible for their

       9   employees' behavior.

      10              And the incentive with that, going back

      11   to incentive, we look at the safe drivers and we

      12   give them savings bonds, ball caps, dinners,

      13   things like that.  And that really does work.

      14   So ...

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  This is Michael

      16   Silverstein.

      17              Just incidentally, as a -- speaking for

      18   a second as a manager, working for a public

      19   employer, we've included in our business plan for

      20   the next year a program of reporting of close

      21   calls.  So it's something that we think, as well

      22   as other employers think is doable, and maybe



                                                         243

       1   useful.

       2              DR. MICHAELS:  And if I could -- this

       3   is David Michaels.

       4              You know, we actually do expect

       5   recording and reporting to be part of injury and

       6   illness prevention programs.  It's come up in the

       7   stakeholder meetings.  I'm not sure why it wasn't

       8   in those -- anyway, we do expect the appointment,

       9   and we're looking very much at near misses.

      10              In fact, we've been working with BP

      11   down in the Gulf, and actually BP is reporting not

      12   just injuries, but near misses to NIOSH as well.

      13   And we'll see if that turns out to be useful in

      14   terms of investigations.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thanks.

      16              Peter Dooley?

      17              MR. DOOLEY:  Yeah.  Peter Dooley with

      18   LaborSafe.

      19              Just a little addition.  For one thing,

      20   I applaud OSHA for really seriously looking at the

      21   safety incentive programs and the consequences of

      22   them.



                                                         244

       1              And just another angle which Peg

       2   Seminario mentioned about discipline.  There's a

       3   growing increase of activity that I see from --

       4   reporting from workers about programs which place

       5   an emphasis on basically retaliation for workers

       6   who report injuries.

       7              And it comes as serious as one worker

       8   recently described for me as management bullying,

       9   around health and safety, so that if a worker

      10   reports an injury, they're called in for an

      11   interrogation.

      12              And this is a meeting where they have

      13   with management, which supposedly is to find out

      14   what the problem is, but, in fact, often results

      15   in more scrutiny of that worker, and in many

      16   cases, results in discipline and other forms of

      17   retaliation against the worker.

      18              So, there's an increasing amount of

      19   fear around health and safety in the workplace.

      20   And this is coupled with -- there's also a whole

      21   bunch of programs which have all these work rules

      22   that are established, which are, you know, a



                                                         245

       1   telephone book, and workers are often found in

       2   violation of them, and basically discipline is

       3   applied.

       4              And this is all in the midst of an

       5   incredible do-more-with-less mentality in

       6   workplaces, where equipment is not being

       7   maintained the way that it should be and used to

       8   be; there's staffing levels that have been

       9   drastically decreased.  And it's really a crisis

      10   in health and safety in most workplaces.

      11              DR. MICHAELS:  If I can just respond,

      12   we share some of these same concerns.  We've seen

      13   programs where the only time that a worker is

      14   disciplined for filing a safety rule is when

      15   they're injured.

      16              And they're allowed to go and -- and

      17   it's expected and understood in these workplaces

      18   that no discipline will take place for doing

      19   certain procedures which are against safety rules;

      20   but if you're injured, you can be fired for that.

      21              In fact, we recently have a whistle

      22   blower case under a different law, which we



                                                         246

       1   actually will be able to, I think, successfully

       2   cite the employer for automatically instigating an

       3   investigation of every worker who's injured, and

       4   inevitably finding cause in their action and then

       5   disciplining them.

       6              It's a significant problem.  We'd love

       7   your advice on how to address that.

       8              So maybe I will leave you here, I know

       9   you have much to do.  I hope to return later on in

      10   the session.  And let me thank you again for all

      11   your great help.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you,

      13   Dr. Michaels.

      14              I would like to continue for a short

      15   period, before we get back to the issues related

      16   to oil spill recovery, I'd like to consider

      17   whether or not there are some of these additional

      18   issues that Dr. Michaels just raised that we ought

      19   to put on our agenda in some kind of specific way.

      20              I'm open to the suggestion that we

      21   would establish one or more work groups, in

      22   addition to the one that we discussed earlier,



                                                         247

       1   though I'm not going to push for that.  That's

       2   something we can always do later.

       3              But I'd like to know what people think

       4   about how we should address some of these other

       5   issues.  "Other" doesn't, by any means, doesn't

       6   mean less important than the oil spill.

       7              MR. SWARTZ:  Jim Swartz.

       8              Just a general comment.  I appreciate

       9   actually limiting the topics, and his general

      10   comments about, "I'd like some feedback."

      11              So what is our general process for

      12   giving feedback?  Is it through work groups?  Or

      13   is it through -- I'd like to understand that piece

      14   first before we can give comments.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Right.

      16   Recommendations come only from the full committee,

      17   and only during a public meeting of the full

      18   committee.

      19              So we can make recommendations at the

      20   end of the meeting today; we can make them at our

      21   next meeting.  The work groups are to assist us in

      22   working through issues, but they're not



                                                         248

       1   decision-making bodies in the same sense.

       2              MR. SWARTZ:  And that's why I was just

       3   being pedantic, and "I'd appreciate your

       4   comments," the comments of the work groups, or our

       5   general comments?

       6              And I know we're learning as a new

       7   group, and so some of it comes at the learning

       8   stage.  But how do we give comments?  And it's

       9   through work groups?

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, deliberations

      11   might come through work groups, or the full

      12   committee itself.  But decisions about

      13   recommendations that we make to the agencies come

      14   at the full meetings.

      15              So one way to think about it is that,

      16   if there is a subject where we don't want -- our

      17   next meeting is going to be in September.

      18              If there's a subject where we want

      19   to -- where we don't want to lose time and just

      20   put it to sleep until the next meeting, but we

      21   want to continue working on it, a work group would

      22   be a way of gaining and continuing some momentum.



                                                         249

       1              There may very well be subjects which

       2   we think over the next two years are going to be

       3   very important to address, but we don't have to

       4   address right now.  We don't need a work group, we

       5   don't need more discussion today, but we would

       6   keep on a list for us to come back to.

       7              I think Bill had his hand up first, and

       8   then Peg.

       9              MR. BORWEGEN:  I'd go to Peg first.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg Seminario.

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  I would suggest on some

      12   of these, that it would be useful to establish

      13   some more background, before deciding whether or

      14   not we're going to have a work group.

      15              And, you know, looking at the issue of

      16   the accurate injury and illness reporting issue,

      17   which for the unions is a very major issue, that

      18   perhaps at the next full meeting is to have some

      19   presentations, a panel of people who are doing

      20   work in this area.

      21              And sort of a greater explanation.

      22   There was a very good GAO study that was done



                                                         250

       1   looking at some of these issues.  There's more

       2   work going on in that area, you know, some of the

       3   findings that have come out on that, some of the

       4   examples.

       5              So we have a fuller sense of what we're

       6   dealing with and what the issues are here in the

       7   way of some more, you know, formal presentations.

       8              And then with that, perhaps looking at

       9   what the specific issues are, if we want to

      10   develop through a work group.  That would be one

      11   way to establish a base of more information,

      12   before jumping immediately into a work group that

      13   the full committee could benefit from.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think that's an

      15   excellent idea.  It might prevent us from jumping

      16   into something prematurely.

      17              And I would remind the group that

      18   Dr. Howard suggested a couple of subjects where

      19   NIOSH would be happy to come and make the

      20   presentation, for example, on Prevention Through

      21   Design.

      22              So I think that's a good idea.  I would



                                                         251

       1   just be cautious about not getting ourselves in a

       2   situation where we've overloaded ourselves so much

       3   in the way of presentation that we don't have any

       4   time for discussion.

       5              MS. SEMINARIO:  Right.  Right.  Right.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So let's be prudent

       7   about it, but --

       8              MR. BORWEGEN:  I just have a process

       9   question on how we want to operate as a committee,

      10   and how often we want to get together, and how

      11   many days you want to get together for.

      12              I don't know if this is the right time,

      13   but you just say, that, you know, many of us have

      14   been doing this work for many years, and you know,

      15   I think many of us have seen the good, the bad,

      16   and the ugly.  And I think there's opportunities

      17   here for us to support OSHA with our

      18   recommendations, and that we have -- we have OSHA

      19   and NIOSH, and there's a level of receptivity

      20   that, by these agencies that we have not seen,

      21   really, in our careers, to some degree.

      22              And so I would wonder -- and I know



                                                         252

       1   we're all very busy, and again, there's more

       2   opportunities than time allows.

       3              But I'm wondering if we want to discuss

       4   the frequency of our meetings and the length of

       5   our meetings, in light of this historic

       6   opportunity that I think has presented itself to

       7   us.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'd be happy to talk

       9   about frequency of meetings and the number of

      10   subgroups and work groups.

      11              I'd like to do that closer to the end

      12   of the meeting, when we're talking about next

      13   steps.

      14              When we do have that discussion, we've

      15   got to distinguish between what we, as a

      16   committee, might like and what OSHA is able to

      17   support in the way of resources, including budget.

      18              Keith Goddard?

      19              MR. GODDARD:  I just wanted to offer

      20   the committee our resources.  Several things that

      21   John Howard mentioned on aging workforce, some of

      22   you may have been on the committee when that



                                                         253

       1   presentation was made in '08.

       2              You know, before we asked John in to

       3   update it, we can send you the link to that

       4   presentation that was made in here in '08.

       5              So there are a lot of things like the

       6   Emory committee on how that functioned.  We can

       7   give you some historic background information that

       8   you can read on your own time to sort of bring us

       9   up to speed before we make commitments.

      10              Peg, on the accuracy of record-keeping,

      11   by September, I should have a summary of the

      12   national emphasis program that's out there.

      13              So, if you want to ask us, the agency,

      14   to give you a quick brief on a specific topic, not

      15   a plethora, or a regulatory [inaudible], I could

      16   do that.  And by September, we could give you some

      17   results from the NEP on things that we actually

      18   are doing.  We should have some information like

      19   that.  And that's just an example.

      20              Before you go on, like Mike said,

      21   forming a committee on an issue that may not have

      22   much information and background, we'd like to make



                                                         254

       1   background information available to you.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.  And as you

       3   remember, I urge that we not load the committee at

       4   this meeting with a lot of background documents.

       5   But I think as we go forward, there's some issues

       6   that can best be addressed by providing some

       7   documents to the committee before meetings.

       8              For example, I think we ought to

       9   distribute the OSHA regulatory agenda in advance

      10   of the next meeting.  We don't have to have a

      11   presentation about it necessarily, but information

      12   is going to be key background information.

      13              Emory Knowles?

      14              MR. KNOWLES:  Yeah, Emory Knowles.

      15              Just a quick question, Keith.

      16              On the accurate record-keeping, you

      17   know, the safety incentive programs are certainly

      18   a subset of that discussion, and there's been

      19   quite a bit discussed about employee incentive

      20   programs.

      21              Are you also looking at employer or

      22   executive incentive programs and their role in



                                                         255

       1   accurate record-keeping?

       2              And I think, Peter, that ties a little

       3   bit into your concern.

       4              MR. GODDARD:  The NEP requires

       5   inspectors to gather copies of these programs, so

       6   part of our analysis of the results of them would

       7   be -- and we're not versed, and there's not much

       8   literature out there that we can compare to.  But

       9   we're collecting these, and maybe for our next

      10   meeting I might have sort of a categorization and

      11   characterization of what we've gathered in the

      12   field, in terms of incentive programs.

      13              But they're not really focused on the

      14   executive incentive program in the --

      15              MR. KNOWLES:  It's another side that

      16   certainly needs to be --

      17              MR. GODDARD:  Right --

      18              MR. KNOWLES:  -- thought about.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me --

      20              Yes, Sarah, Sarah Shortall.

      21              MS. SHORTALL:  Sarah Shortall, NACOSH

      22   counsel.



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       1              I just wanted to maybe highlight a

       2   little bit about what the other committees are

       3   doing in terms of having work groups.

       4              ACCOSH has a number of work groups.

       5   They have work groups that are both very general

       6   in nature that tend to be on long-term projects,

       7   they know the agency is going to be continually

       8   working on, such as training.

       9              And then they also establish ones that

      10   are very specific for an issue, such as rollover

      11   protection.  And they're very conscious of, after

      12   they make a recommendation to the agency -- I

      13   mean, excuse me, a recommendation back to a parent

      14   committee, then they even suggest that they be

      15   disbanded.

      16              So this group could do a combination of

      17   those types of committees, one that you see as

      18   more long-term, and short-term.

      19              On FACOSH, the committee dealing with

      20   federal employees, they've established a

      21   particular broad subcommittee dealing with

      22   emerging issues.  So it allows, as something comes



                                                         257

       1   up they want to deal with, they have a

       2   subcommittee to immediately plug something into,

       3   so that a group can be consistently working on

       4   things in between meetings.

       5              So there might be some value on

       6   deciding if you may have certain larger issues

       7   you'd want to do something that allows you to just

       8   now start gathering information, doing other types

       9   of things in between meetings.

      10              Or you could decide you want to wait

      11   for that.  But there are a number of ways to do

      12   it.

      13              The other thing that ACCOSH does, that

      14   I think is very smart is, at least once a year

      15   they look at their list of subcommittees and

      16   decide, are we spreading our members too thin?

      17              And so they're very conscious of trying

      18   to not do it so that the members are asked to do

      19   so much they can't get anything done.  And

      20   sometimes they move committees into a hiatus, just

      21   because that's all they have the time to do.

      22              They're also very conscious on those



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       1   committees -- and it is important to remember on

       2   the work group -- to maintain the same type of

       3   balance and representation that you have here.

       4              So what happens at ACCOSH, and I

       5   believe in the maritime advisor committee, is that

       6   there are cochairs that are done, usually a

       7   representative from employers, employees, to make

       8   sure that there is an appropriate balance, and to

       9   make sure that other interests, like the state

      10   representatives, or public representatives in this

      11   case, would also be represented on those work

      12   groups.

      13              So I think that's something very

      14   important to keep in mind.  It is essential to

      15   have that same kind of balance in your

      16   subcommittees.

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.  I think

      18   that was very helpful.

      19              Actually, I think it's a good segue

      20   into asking the committee whether or not you feel

      21   that, given what we know at this point, and what

      22   we've heard from the two agencies, are there any



                                                         259

       1   subjects that you think warrant a setting up an

       2   additional work group on at this time?

       3              Or would we be best served by waiting

       4   until the next meeting and digging into some

       5   issues more thoroughly?

       6              I'm not making a proposal on this.  I

       7   don't have a strong view one way or the other.

       8              DR. MURRAY:  I would prefer to wait,

       9   just because the work group -- one work group to

      10   set up is a lot of work, in and of itself.

      11              So I think waiting until our next

      12   meeting makes sense.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Are there other

      14   thoughts on that?

      15              Bill Borwegen?

      16              MR. BORWEGEN:  Again, I think we need

      17   to have a discussion on is there anything that

      18   this committee can do that can support an

      19   expeditious promulgation of the injury and illness

      20   prevention standard.

      21              And I don't know if that starts out as

      22   a full committee discussion, and then if we



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       1   identify work that needs to be done to support

       2   that goal, then we would defer to a work group.

       3              But at some point we may just want to

       4   do a brainstorm as the full group to see -- you

       5   know, to try to get to things that we could do

       6   that would support that OSHA objective.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Other thoughts on

       8   this question about establishing work groups now,

       9   or later?

      10              Yes, Denise Pouget.

      11              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  I would be

      12   more than happy, because I feel like this risk map

      13   thing I was telling you about, I would be more

      14   than happy to gather that information and bring it

      15   back as just a sample of something that does work

      16   if -- you know, that wouldn't require a whole lot

      17   of effort.  It's already done.  If you wish.  It's

      18   up to you.

      19              I mean, it has the whole reward, you

      20   know, the root cause, the whole package, if you

      21   want to.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That may be very



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       1   useful.  I think once we make a decision about

       2   work groups, the next thing I want to turn to is

       3   coming up with subjects where we would like

       4   presentations at the next meeting.  And this might

       5   be one of those.

       6              But is there agreement with Linda Rae

       7   that at this time there's no pressing need to set

       8   up another work group?  Or does anybody have a

       9   contrary opinion?

      10              Okay.  Okay.  So we will stick with the

      11   one work group that we've already decided on, and

      12   we'll come back to that in a minute.

      13              But I would like to talk for a couple

      14   of minutes about areas where we would like more

      15   information from the agencies, in order to decide

      16   where we go.

      17              And again, I'll repeat what I said a

      18   few minutes ago.  There are many subjects where

      19   I'm sure we would like to know more, but I don't

      20   want to overload ourselves.  So let's choose a

      21   very limited few where at the next meeting we'd

      22   like to have a full presentation and discussion.



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       1              What would you nominate to be on that

       2   list?

       3              Peg?

       4              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, as I suggested

       5   before -- or proposed before, having a

       6   presentation and a fuller discussion around injury

       7   reporting, the national emphasis program that's

       8   going on now.

       9              I know some of the work that we've done

      10   in the unions, and looking at some of these

      11   issues, maybe have the GAO folks come in and talk

      12   about what they've done.  And they're continuing

      13   to do some work in this area.

      14              And, you know, get some information on

      15   the table and identify what some of those issues

      16   are.

      17              And maybe have a little bit more

      18   presentation from the agency as to what

      19   Dr. Michaels talked about, as to what the agency

      20   sees as its authority in these areas here, as well

      21   as to what is covered by 11(c), what could be

      22   covered by a regulation.



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       1              I think having a better sense of that,

       2   because it's one thing to have an 11(c) violation

       3   with respect to an individual worker; it's a

       4   different thing to have in place the regulatory

       5   structure that essentially prohibits certain

       6   practices.  They're different.  They're

       7   complimentary.

       8              So getting a better handle on what the

       9   agency sees in that area, and how that might

      10   relate to an injury and illness prevention

      11   program.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Now, I don't want to

      13   place too much under that umbrella, but I'm

      14   reading your suggestion as something that is

      15   somewhat broad, in that it would address a number

      16   of different topics in the area of injury and

      17   illness reporting.

      18              It would include the record-keeping NEP

      19   that's underway.  It might include electronic

      20   record-keeping, as David Michaels was describing,

      21   and some related issues as well.

      22              Am I reading you correctly?



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       1              MS. SEMINARIO:  I'm not so sure as much

       2   on the electronic record-keeping.  I think that's

       3   another whole, huge area.

       4              Again, I know the agency is trying to

       5   grapple with this whole issue of accurate

       6   reporting, incentive programs, discipline

       7   programs, what are legal, what are not legal,

       8   where do you draw lines, what's effective, what's

       9   not effective, in trying to get a better sense

      10   of -- in using panel discussions to begin to lay

      11   that out, and perhaps categorize the different

      12   kind of programs that folks are encountering, what

      13   they're seeing, the impacts of those and what's

      14   involved and --

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So you would include

      16   under this topic the programs that are going to

      17   create incentives for reporting or not report

      18   something.

      19              MS. SEMINARIO:  Oh, yeah.  Yeah.

      20   Incentives for reporting --

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  So, broad --

      22              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yeah, the incentives,



                                                         265

       1   the disincentives -- I think looking at the whole

       2   issue of supervisory issues.

       3              And one of the things that was most

       4   interesting about the work that GAO did, they did

       5   a survey, I think of a thousand safety and health

       6   professionals, doctors, people who basically keep

       7   the injury log, injury reporting, and found that

       8   there was incredible pressure on the providers of

       9   services in providing occupational health services

      10   not to report injuries.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, let's request,

      12   then, at the next meeting, that the agencies

      13   provide a presentation on injury and illness

      14   reporting, including the incentive programs that

      15   lead to over or underreporting.

      16              And I think it would be useful, even if

      17   we don't get fully into the issue of electronic

      18   record-keeping, that you provide us some

      19   background material with the program that you

      20   described earlier.

      21              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  No problem.

      22              MS. SEMINARIO:  But I guess I would



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       1   just also suggest more than just the agency.

       2   Maybe have some other people come in who are

       3   involved in the issue, and maybe have a panel on

       4   it.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So you're suggesting

       6   a panel that does that.

       7              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yeah.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, let me just --

       9   I can, in the interim, discuss that with staff,

      10   and we can organize something for the next --

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  Sure.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think we can handle

      13   more than one subject like this.  Not a lot more.

      14   But what else would you suggest?

      15              Susan.

      16              MS. RANDOLPH:  Susan Randolph, UNC.

      17              I think what Dr. Howard was talking

      18   about, the Prevention Through Design, something

      19   along that issue would be useful, particularly as

      20   a preventive.  And it might also lead to fewer

      21   injuries and illnesses occurring.  I think some of

      22   that would be very important.



                                                         267

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Reactions to

       2   that?  Personally, I would agree with that.  But

       3   what do other people feel?

       4              MR. DOOLEY:  Yeah, I agree with that.

       5   And just a lot of the things that I hear from

       6   folks that have been involved in those conferences

       7   and projects, is that they're very frustrated,

       8   that they don't feel there's enough leadership

       9   coming out of NIOSH, and something needs to really

      10   bump the system up so that we're doing more work

      11   in this area.

      12              So all the more reason, I think, to

      13   emphasize it and find out more about what's, you

      14   know, what's going on --

      15              MS. RANDOLPH:  More engineering

      16   methods.

      17              MR. DOOLEY:  Correct.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So let me suggest

      19   this:  That at the next meeting we continue the --

      20   we hear from the work group that we're setting up

      21   on the oil spill, and we address those issues; we

      22   continue to address those issues, however they've



                                                         268

       1   evolved at that point.

       2              That, secondly, we have a presentation

       3   about injury and illness reporting and the

       4   associated incentive programs.

       5              That we have a program about Prevention

       6   Through Design.

       7              And that you allow me discretion as

       8   chair to work with OSHA and NIOSH staff in the

       9   interim, if there are other issues and subjects

      10   that emerge that really merit significant time on

      11   the agenda, but that we not make decisions about

      12   that right now.

      13              Does that sound reasonable?

      14              Bill Borwegen.

      15              MR. BORWEGEN:  Maybe this request needs

      16   to be fleshed out more, but, you know, what I'd

      17   like -- what I'd like to explore is to get just an

      18   overview of OSHA's overall enforcement, both --

      19   but not just quantitatively, also qualitatively,

      20   to match where their inspections occur relative to

      21   DLS data where people are actually getting

      22   injured, or where most people in the economy work



                                                         269

       1   today.

       2              Because I think there's a mismatch, and

       3   somehow I think we need to explore that more, and

       4   I don't know -- so that's -- maybe I need some

       5   help forming that question.

       6              But, you know, it just bothers me that,

       7   you know, OSHA drives past the hospital with the

       8   2,000 employees to get to the chemical plant where

       9   the 20 people work, and they have a mug with the

      10   OSHA inspector's name on it at the chemical plant,

      11   and the OSHA inspector's never been in that

      12   hospital, and that's where a lot more people are

      13   getting hurt in that hospital than the chemical

      14   plant.

      15              So I don't know, I'm just throwing that

      16   out, and I don't know what to ask of OSHA, but I

      17   think it's a question of quantitative and

      18   qualitative evaluation of their inspection data,

      19   and, of course, the confounding factor is that we

      20   don't have standards that address the hazards that

      21   those hospital workers face.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I have no doubt,



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       1   though, from discussions that we had yesterday

       2   that Rich Fairfax, Tom Galassi and Keith Goddard

       3   would be happy to make a presentation about the

       4   status of OSHA enforcement.

       5              The question for the committee is

       6   whether or not you think we ought to add that to

       7   the agenda right now.

       8              MR. BORWEGEN:  I don't know.  Maybe

       9   not --

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  What do people think?

      11              MR. SWARTZ:  Jim Swartz.

      12              I just didn't hear that from either

      13   gentleman here.  So they had seemed to have other

      14   concerns.  I don't know if it was just an

      15   oversight issue or if it wasn't ripe for

      16   discussion, but I think they're pretty clear.

      17   Each one gave us four or five items that they

      18   mentioned they needed assistance on.

      19              So maybe we want to focus on those.

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I understand what

      21   you're saying.  I think that, if I'm not

      22   misinterpreting, I think that one of Bill



                                                         271

       1   Borwegen's points is that information about the

       2   status of enforcement helps to understand and put

       3   in context a lot of the other things that OSHA and

       4   NIOSH are dealing with.  So I think it certainly

       5   would be useful.

       6              The question is, would it be useful and

       7   necessary at the next meeting?

       8              Tim, did you have your hand up?  Or are

       9   you just moving your hand?

      10                  [inaudible speaking]

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.  Keith.  Keith

      12   Goddard --

      13              MR. GODDARD:  How I would tie that

      14   suggestion back to what [inaudible] and Michaels

      15   talked about, when he mentioned the OSHA

      16   initiative on how we do offsite specific

      17   targeting, I live in that world.  That's what we

      18   do, develop those targeting lists.  And he was

      19   talking about them being two years out from when

      20   we collected data.  So we're aware of a lot of

      21   efficiency mismatches in places that we target.

      22              So we have data going back 14 years,



                                                         272

       1   older OSHA initiative, which we have put up on the

       2   website now.  And we're following his requests.  I

       3   think he said that to you, that he was interested

       4   in how we do targeting.

       5              And so I don't think it's -- I'd just

       6   be prepared to give you an analysis of some of the

       7   things that we're looking at in terms of improving

       8   our targeting, not excluding hospitals,

       9   necessarily, but industries that we are focusing

      10   on.

      11              Take, for instance, oil and gas

      12   industries.  84 percent of them are less than 10

      13   employees, not included.  Should we be targeting

      14   them?  In the last five years, close to 5,000

      15   fatalities.

      16              So those are things that we look at.

      17   So if you want some data, information to help you

      18   decide whether to explore some more or not, Rich,

      19   Tom and I would be glad to work with you on that.

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me suggest a step

      21   in between, like a stepping stone, which would be

      22   that you work with the other directorate heads to



                                                         273

       1   gather and provide the committee with a packet of

       2   background information on the targeting systems

       3   and the enforcement experience; that the

       4   committee, then, members, look at that between now

       5   and the next meeting; we do some feedback

       6   informally by phone or e-mail, and decide whether

       7   or not we'd like a presentation at the next

       8   meeting on any piece of this.

       9              Would that work?

      10              And then as we see how the agenda is

      11   shaping up, what the time looks like, we can make

      12   decisions later.

      13              Peg Seminario.

      14              MS. SEMINARIO:  Just to add to that, I

      15   think it would be useful in preparation for the

      16   next meeting to have some more background

      17   information on other major aspects of the agency's

      18   program.  You talked about getting the regulatory

      19   agenda.  That's one piece of it.

      20              The reg program on enforcement as to

      21   what is going on, and enforcement with some of the

      22   major initiatives are right now, that are



                                                         274

       1   underway, and what's also the experience there.

       2              The other, you know, big piece of

       3   the -- that underlies all this is just information

       4   on resources and budget.

       5              And I don't mean that for

       6   presentations, but I think for all of our work

       7   here, having a sense of those sort of foundational

       8   programs of the agency, and then how to -- these

       9   other specific issues fit into that.

      10              Because one -- kind of the last time

      11   that I was on, I guess -- or a couple of times ago

      12   when I was on NACOSH, one thing that took place --

      13   and I think it was you, actually, when you were

      14   here at the agency, Michael -- that there were a

      15   lot of different initiatives, but they were all

      16   disconnected.  During reinvention years.

      17              So I think one of the things this

      18   committee can bring to the agency is some

      19   feedback, a little different vision, as to how

      20   they fit together, and ways in which these

      21   different initiatives can be mutually reinforcing,

      22   supportive of each other, et cetera, et cetera.



                                                         275

       1              And so having some sense of, again, the

       2   overall foundation, will give us a better handle

       3   on how these things can better fit together.

       4              Because despite the best efforts of,

       5   you know, the agency, they've all got a ton of

       6   work to do in their particular areas, and

       7   sometimes they don't even have time to breathe,

       8   let alone to get to step back and think about, oh,

       9   how this could be connected to that, to basically

      10   be of mutual benefit, so ...

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think those are

      12   good points.

      13              There are a couple of related things

      14   that I don't want to lose track of.  One is Roy

      15   Buchan's suggestion that we address the

      16   under-attention that OSHA currently pays to

      17   agriculture safety and health issues.

      18              He made a specific recommendation, but

      19   I think what might be helpful for the next meeting

      20   is to ask OSHA and NIOSH to provide us with some

      21   background information on what is being done for

      22   agricultural safety and health right now, so we



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       1   can get a better baseline from which to come back

       2   to your suggestion.

       3              DR. BUCHAN:  Thank you.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And I think also

       5   another thing I don't want to lose track of, but I

       6   don't know a way to kind of do anything with it

       7   right now, given the other things, is Linda's

       8   suggestion about somehow fostering a national

       9   discussion about a paradigm shift, about a

      10   different way, or different alternatives to the

      11   current system that was written into the OSHA Act

      12   in 1970.

      13              But I think that's for us to come back

      14   to.  I just don't want to lose it.

      15              What I think I'd like to do now is take

      16   a 15-minute break; then come back and turn our

      17   attention to recommendations and the work group on

      18   oil spill worker protection related to oil spill

      19   recovery.

      20              And then we'll finish up with some of

      21   the administrative details.

      22              And I, for one, need to leave here at



                                                         277

       1   almost exactly 4:30, so I'm going to push us to

       2   conclusion.

       3              Okay.  It's ten after right now.  Let's

       4   take a quick break.  Let's be back here by 25

       5   after.  A 15-minute break, and then we'll finish

       6   up.

       7                     (RECESS TAKEN)

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I want to reconvene

       9   this meeting at the National Advisory Committee On

      10   Occupational Safety and Health, and I note for the

      11   record that all committee members are still

      12   present.

      13              Has Jim Swartz -- I thought I saw him

      14   there.  All committee members except one are

      15   present.  We have a quorum at the present time.

      16         (RETURNING TO COMMENTS AND DISCUSSION

      17           ON WORK GROUP FOR GULL OIL SPILL)

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I want to turn

      19   attention now back to consideration of the work

      20   group that we are establishing to address the

      21   protection of workers involved in oil spill

      22   recovery efforts.



                                                         278

       1              I'm going to pass out a possible

       2   statement that would establish that work group.

       3              You'll notice on this statement that it

       4   has a couple of bullet items that might also be

       5   repeated in specific immediate recommendations we

       6   make.

       7              So, for those items, we might take them

       8   off of this document, or leave them there, as both

       9   long-term and immediate issues.

      10              Let me pass this around.  I'll read it

      11   to the group, and then we can discuss it.

      12              Denise worked on this, along with Sarah

      13   Shortall, and I think Deborah helped out with

      14   this.

      15              MR. GODDARD:  Do we have any more?

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  There should be more.

      17              And I think for our next meeting we

      18   will arrange for the proper technology, so that we

      19   can have more things typed and visible on screens,

      20   et cetera.  We'll just do with what we have for

      21   this meeting.  The next meeting will be more

      22   efficient, more technology adept.



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       1              NACOSH is establishing a work group to

       2   address the protection of workers involved in oil

       3   spill recovery efforts in the Gulf.  The work

       4   group will exist for an unspecified period of

       5   time.  The work group is charged with developing

       6   the following types of recommendations for

       7   protecting workers involved in oil spill recovery

       8   efforts in the Gulf:

       9              First, recommendations that NACOSH

      10   could make to OSHA and NIOSH regarding short-term

      11   and immediate actions the agency should undertake

      12   to protect workers, such as:

      13              Providing information and training on

      14   personal protective equipment workers should use

      15   in specific oil spill recovery jobs;

      16              Identifying and providing information

      17   on best available control technologies to protect

      18   workers in specific oil spill recovery jobs;

      19              Providing information to workers on the

      20   hazards of excessive work hours in the Gulf

      21   environment, and recommendations on appropriate

      22   work hours for specific types of oil spill



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       1   recovery jobs;

       2              Providing information on proper rest

       3   and rehabilitation procedures to protect workers

       4   working in oil spill recovery jobs in the Gulf

       5   environment;

       6              And identifying what types of

       7   communication can be mainstreamed, for example, to

       8   the public, other agencies, health-care providers,

       9   workers and volunteers, and how such communication

      10   should be utilized.

      11              Two:  Recommendations that NIOSH could

      12   make to OSHA and NIOSH on worker protection issues

      13   that emerge or evolve during the recovery efforts.

      14              And three:  Recommendations that NACOSH

      15   could make to OSHA and NIOSH regarding long-term

      16   actions the agency should undertake on worker

      17   protection issues associated with oil spill

      18   recovery efforts in the Gulf, such as conducting

      19   health hazard evaluations and surveillance on

      20   workers involved in the oil spill recovery

      21   efforts, and conducting pilot studies to identify

      22   the most effective worker protection measures for



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       1   specific oil spill recovery tasks and jobs.

       2              And I think you'll readily recognize

       3   that this is an effort to balance an agenda that

       4   would provide flexibility and maneuverability to a

       5   committee, but at the same time would signal

       6   enough about the specifics that we consider

       7   important to have some meaning today.

       8              And it would not -- this would not, as

       9   a general charge to a committee, would not be

      10   inconsistent with some other specific

      11   recommendations that we've charged members to work

      12   on during lunch.

      13              And we'll come to that in a couple of

      14   minutes.

      15              So reactions to this.

      16              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

      17              Question relative to the second bullet

      18   of recommendations that NACOSH would make to OSHA

      19   and NIOSH on worker protection issues that emerge

      20   or evolve during the recovery effort.

      21              In order to do that effectively, could

      22   the work group have liaisons with both OSHA and



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       1   NIOSH, who could advise the working group on what

       2   issues seem to be emerging or evolving with this

       3   effort?  Otherwise, the work group's going to be

       4   trying to pull stuff out of the air from the media

       5   reports.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Right.  I'm not sure

       7   if I understand exactly what you mean, but I don't

       8   see how a work group could conduct its activities

       9   without having fairly regular communications with

      10   the agencies, and having a flow of information

      11   back and forth.

      12              MR. KNOWLES:  Right.  And that's what

      13   I'm asking.  Will there be members of the agency

      14   appointed or designated to assist this team?

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I see.  Let me ask

      16   how this has been done with work groups

      17   previously.

      18              MR. KNOWLES:  That's how it was done

      19   with --

      20              MS. SHORTALL:  Yes.  Usually, OSHA will

      21   assign a liaison person to every work group that's

      22   established by an advisory committee.



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       1              In this case, since we work more

       2   closely with NIOSH in this particular one, I have

       3   to inquire whether they also would be able to

       4   provide a person who would be -- I guess you'd

       5   call it not only assistant, but liaison -- to

       6   provide information.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And I think we can do

       8   that.  I just need to check.

       9              MR. KNOWLES:  Yeah.  In the past, for

      10   example, when we had the Hispanic worker outreach

      11   initiative, we did have folks from both OSHA and

      12   NIOSH working with us, and assisting us.  Not on a

      13   full-time basis, just on periodic conference

      14   calls.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think it's fair to

      16   assume that we'll have that kind of support from

      17   the agencies with details to be worked out.

      18              Other thoughts about this draft?

      19              Joe?  Joe Van Houten.

      20              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  I just have a question

      21   that's been kind of on my mind during this whole

      22   discussion, is the relationship between OSHA and



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       1   BP.  Because, as issues are emerging, BP's going

       2   to know about them first.  So how does that

       3   relationship work in order for information to flow

       4   between the company and OSHA, so that OSHA, or

       5   this group, can know what the emerging issues are?

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I don't know --

       7              MS. SEMINARIO:  I know.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Peg Seminario?

       9              MS. SEMINARIO:  We had a -- the unions

      10   had a meeting with OSHA last week, and NIOSH, on

      11   what was going on down in the Gulf Coast.

      12              Cindy Coe, the Region 4 administrator

      13   for OSHA, as David said, has been charged with

      14   heading up this activity.  And what she informed

      15   us last week is that she now, daily, has a call

      16   with the key safety and health person at BP and

      17   the Coast Guard every morning here, and is getting

      18   information and feedback back and forth on a daily

      19   basis.

      20              And then there's also communications

      21   going on at lower levels as well.

      22              But there's a formal system setting up



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       1   immediately, because they really are in a mode of

       2   being on the ground as part of the response.

       3              And then I know that Dr. Michaels and

       4   Jordan Barab, they're having discussions at a

       5   higher level of issues that are coming up, where

       6   they're going directly to the higher-ups within

       7   the corporation of BP who have responsibilities,

       8   as well as the Coast Guard.

       9              So that's what they told us last week.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think it's fair to

      11   say that, without knowing details, that there are

      12   complex issues of authority, accountability and

      13   responsibility that we just can't possibly

      14   understand right now, sitting in this room.

      15              I would think that it would be very

      16   useful and helpful for the work group, as it

      17   engages in its tasks, to become more informed

      18   about that.

      19              Keith Goddard?

      20              MR. GODDARD:  This is evolving as we

      21   speak.  And there should be an MOU between OSHA

      22   and the Coast Guard that's imminent.  David



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       1   assigned it.  It's back over with the Coast Guard.

       2              And then there's the incident command

       3   structure which has been established.  This MOU

       4   sort of establishes the communication and

       5   sub-jurisdictional issues.  It will be made public

       6   as soon as it's signed.

       7              So your question is being revealed as

       8   we speak -- your answer, the answer to your

       9   question, as well as what Peg says is happening on

      10   the ground level.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  And what I

      12   think is clearly appropriate is for us to request

      13   of the agencies that you provide information about

      14   those responsibilities to the full committee as

      15   that information is available.

      16              MR. GODDARD:  Right.

      17              MS. SEMINARIO:  Right.  Could I just

      18   add to that, also NIOSH.  Because there's a

      19   different set of structures set up in dealing with

      20   the public health response of the surveillance

      21   systems that we understand are going back through

      22   some of the state health departments through CDC



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       1   reporting mechanisms.

       2              So there's a lot of different moving

       3   pieces.

       4              So I think getting from both agencies,

       5   both OSHA and NIOSH, a better, full sense of how

       6   they are operating and what those systems are, and

       7   how they're connected, both in terms of the

       8   immediate response, but also to other agencies,

       9   would be really helpful.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So, Paul, can we just

      11   extend that request for information about roles

      12   and responsibilities to NIOSH as well?

      13              DR. MIDDENDORF:  Yes.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Linda Rae Murray.

      15              DR. MURRAY:  I want to make sure of

      16   this language.  I don't think it -- I don't think

      17   this language makes it possible to have people

      18   that are not on this committee function with the

      19   working group.  I think that was mentioned

      20   earlier, but it wasn't --

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  The 1912(a) rules

      22   allow for the assistant secretary, at our request,



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       1   to designate experts and consultants to work with

       2   one of our work groups.

       3              And as the work group takes shape, I'll

       4   take recommendations from the work group that can

       5   be forwarded to the assistant secretary.

       6              MS. SHORTALL:  The work group meetings

       7   are also open to the public, and so members of the

       8   public, in addition to appointed experts and

       9   consultants would also be allowed to participate.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, if I'm not

      11   mistaken, the rules give the chair some discretion

      12   as to when and how public -- the public may make

      13   comments to, or have discussion with the

      14   committee.

      15              MS. SHORTALL:  There's two different

      16   things.  In the subgroup, it's much more informal.

      17   People usually talk around the table and whoever

      18   the chairs are, you know, conduct and try to

      19   gather together the materials that would be

      20   reported back to the parent committee.

      21              Under both FACA, and 1912.8, you as the

      22   chair can allow people to speak before this



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       1   meeting, although that is not the general

       2   practice.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Thank you.

       4   Other comments about this language establishing a

       5   work group?

       6              Since this is not a recommendation to

       7   the agencies, I don't think we need anything other

       8   than general agreement about this.

       9              Are there any reservations about the

      10   language that's in here?

      11              DR. BUCHAN:  I think it looks good.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Bill?

      13              MR. BORWEGEN:  Bill Borwegen, SCIU.

      14              So, my only -- I guess I need to have

      15   clarity, so -- the recommendation at NIOSH -- that

      16   NACOSH can make to OSHA and NIOSH in worker

      17   protection issues that emerge, or are evolved

      18   during the recovery efforts, does this mean

      19   that -- I'm just thinking time-wise, does this

      20   mean that the earliest that we would provide any

      21   recommendations to NIOSH or OSHA would be at the

      22   next September meeting?



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       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  No, in that can't

       2   we're going to turn right now to recommendations

       3   that we want to make today.

       4              MR. BORWEGEN:  Oh, okay.  Okay.  First

       5   we form the work group and then we start making

       6   recommendations.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Now, before we turn

       8   to those, the next question I've got has to do

       9   with membership on this work group.  And keeping

      10   in mind that we're not setting up other work

      11   groups right now, so there's no danger of overwork

      12   here.

      13              I would like to know who would, before

      14   I -- before I start appointing people, who are

      15   doing similar things, I would like to know who

      16   would be interested in serving on this work group.

      17              Denise, Timothy, Roy, Peter Dooley.  I

      18   think that works.  Anybody else?  And Peg

      19   Seminario.  Sorry.

      20              There remains the question of who is

      21   going to be chair of this subcommittee.  Let me

      22   think about that, and let you think about that.



                                                         291

       1              And counsel is suggesting cochairs.

       2              That sounds like the voice of

       3   experience, in recommending that.

       4              I don't know, and Peg Seminario is

       5   shaking her head.  Sometimes I've been in groups

       6   where cochairs work well, and other times where it

       7   doesn't.

       8              Let's set this aside.  I ask those who

       9   volunteered for the committee to think about this,

      10   and we'll come back to it, and before the end of

      11   the meeting somebody will be appointed chair.

      12              Somebody wrote down the list?

      13              MS. SEMINARIO:  No.

      14           (WORK GROUP DESIGNEES AS FOLLOWS:)

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Denise Pouget, Tim

      16   Key, Roy Buchan, Roy Dooley and Peg Seminario.

      17   Excellent.

      18              Now, let's turn to the possible

      19   immediate recommendations -- or the

      20   recommendations that we're going to make.

      21              And I know we're -- four of those that

      22   we asked for some work to be done on, one of which



                                                         292

       1   might have been -- we asked Linda Rae Murray to

       2   work on.  It might be a preamble, but might be a

       3   recommendation within itself.

       4              Do you want to start with that one?

       5              DR. MURRAY:  Then people can decide on

       6   it.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And, please, I

       8   understand that anxiety and frustration is going

       9   to rise as soon as we start reading from documents

      10   you don't have in front of you.  Let's just try to

      11   work with us.

      12              DR. MURRAY:  "The Gulf oil spill of

      13   2010 represents one of the largest threats to

      14   environmental quality and health of workers in

      15   surrounding communities in our history.

      16              "An appropriate response to this public

      17   health emergency will require the use of broad

      18   public health interventions and tools in order to

      19   protect the environment and the health of workers

      20   in the communities.

      21              "We urge a coordinated and unified

      22   implementation of worker and community emergency



                                                         293

       1   temporary standards in order to protect the health

       2   of the population.

       3              "We urge a coordinated communication

       4   and media plan to inform workers and the general

       5   public about risks to human health and the

       6   environment and reflect the urgent and rapidly

       7   evolving situation in the Gulf.

       8              "We urge the active and continuing

       9   involvement in coordination of all relevant

      10   federal agencies."

      11              And I listed some.  I don't know --

      12              "EPA, NIOSH, CDC, FDA, Coast Guard,

      13   OSHA, state and local public health agencies,

      14   civic and community groups, industry and labor

      15   experts, to address this emergency."

      16              And this last sentence, because I had

      17   read what Peg had written for funding, may or may

      18   not be necessary.  But it's an attempt to bridge.

      19              "Appropriate responses to this threat

      20   to health and environment require adequate

      21   funding, which must be borne by those industries

      22   responsible for this disaster."



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       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me ask this:

       2   Without concern for the specific wording, does

       3   that appeal to people like it might be an

       4   appropriate preamble, with a sentence at the end

       5   saying, with this in mind, the following specific

       6   recommendations are made?

       7              Or does it sound more like something

       8   that would be a recommendation in and of itself?

       9              I'm just asking for kind of gut feel

      10   now, based on what you've heard very quickly.

      11              MR. BORWEGEN:  Well, I mean, it's an

      12   overview, and I would hope that, you know, it

      13   would be supplemented by very concrete steps.  So

      14   an overview, preamble ...

      15              MS. SHORTALL:  Could you just read the

      16   initial, maybe, first sentence of it?

      17              DR. MURRAY:  "The Gulf oil spill of

      18   2010 represents one of the largest threats to

      19   environmental quality and health of workers and

      20   surrounding communities in our history."

      21              MS. SHORTALL:  Okay.  And then, I

      22   guess, the second one.  Excuse me.



                                                         295

       1              DR. MURRAY:  "An appropriate response

       2   to this public health emergency will require the

       3   use of broad public health interventions and tools

       4   in order to protect the environment and the health

       5   of workers in the communities."

       6              MS. SHORTALL:  If this is a

       7   recommendation, what is it that you're

       8   specifically requesting --

       9              DR. MURRAY:  Right.

      10              MS. SHORTALL:  -- OSHA to do?

      11              DR. MURRAY:  Right.  So my

      12   understanding of this, which I'll be glad to type

      13   up -- my understanding of this was that this was

      14   sort of an introduction.  I don't use the word

      15   "recommendation."

      16              I do later on have a couple of

      17   sentences that says, we urge this, we urge that,

      18   which are, again, very broad in nature.

      19              And I can rework -- if we decide it

      20   should be a recommendation, I can put in

      21   "recommendation."

      22              But, again, my thinking was that then



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       1   the specific three recommendations that we talked

       2   about before lunch would follow this.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think -- that feels

       4   right to me.  If the committee would agree that

       5   the language is good, with or without fine tuning,

       6   but if the committee is basically in agreement

       7   with what Linda read, then I think it more

       8   appropriately is a preamble, followed by specific

       9   recommendations.

      10              MS. SHORTALL:  The specific

      11   recommendations need to be something you're

      12   requesting that OSHA do.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes, we're going to

      14   get to that.

      15                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  We're going to move

      17   to that in just a minute.  And I would agree that

      18   that is more specific than what we just heard.

      19              Timothy Key.

      20              DR. KEY:  I kind of -- Tim Key.

      21              I kind of reinforce what you were

      22   saying, Michael, about this, that it's a preamble.



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       1   It's almost like a "whereas" and then the specific

       2   recommendations to follow that.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Keith Goddard?

       4              MR. GODDARD:  Just to help you in

       5   resources on time, if you give us that and the

       6   other following recommendations, whoever is

       7   familiar.  We deal intensely with track changes.

       8              We could circulate that tomorrow to a

       9   lot of committee members.  Everybody comment on

      10   track changes and coordinate it into one document,

      11   and have it to you by the end of the week.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I appreciate that,

      13   and I think that's going to be necessary.  But my

      14   understanding also is that a decision on

      15   recommendations needs to be made in this meeting.

      16              So we have to agree, without seeing

      17   that final document, and just --

      18                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Right.  We can check

      20   with the transcript to make sure that we haven't

      21   missed anything.

      22              I think I saw another hand.



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       1              Okay.

       2              Well, we can come back to the language

       3   there, but let's presume now that that would be a

       4   "whereas," a preamble.  I'm not suggesting it be

       5   rewritten in a "whereas" form, but it would be of

       6   that nature.

       7              Let me read draft language on one of

       8   the other -- the three specific recommendations

       9   that we've assigned.  And this one has to do with

      10   the work hours and schedules.

      11              The first sentence is an introductory

      12   one, and it may no longer be necessary, given the

      13   preamble.  But the way I wrote it is:

      14              "Gulf oil spill recovery activities

      15   have been" -- it probably is.

      16              "Gulf oil spill recovery activities

      17   have been characterized by long work hours, under

      18   conditions requiring extreme physical exertion and

      19   exposure to hot and humid environments.

      20              "NACOSH believes that long hours of

      21   work, whether measured by individual work shift or

      22   weekly, especially under conditions of physical



                                                         299

       1   exertion and heat exposure, are associated with

       2   work-related injuries and other adverse health

       3   effects.

       4              "While NACOSH does not recommend

       5   specific limits on work hours or schedules at this

       6   time, the committee believes that, at least work

       7   shifts more than 12 hours, and work weeks more

       8   than 60 hours, are excessive.

       9              "NIOSH advises," or recommends -- I'm

      10   not sure what the right word is --

      11              MS. SHORTALL:  NACOSH.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I did that before as

      13   well, and I'll probably do it again.

      14              "NACOSH advises or recommends that OSHA

      15   and NIOSH provide immediate information and advice

      16   to employers and employees regarding work hours

      17   and work schedules considered to be excessive.

      18              "NACOSH further advises the agencies to

      19   expedite the establishment of more formal

      20   guidelines and rules governing work hours and work

      21   schedules, including but not limited to the

      22   possible promulgation of an emergency temporary



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       1   standard for Gulf oil spill recovery workers.

       2              "This should also include consideration

       3   of proper rest and rehabilitation procedures for

       4   such work and working environments."

       5              DR. BUCHAN:  I have a question.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.

       7              DR. BUCHAN:  This is for the OSHA

       8   people.

       9              Do you have a heat stress standard with

      10   work rest regimen?

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think a number of

      12   us can answer that.  No.

      13              UNKNOWN VOICE:  Okay.

      14              UNKNOWN VOICE:  [inaudible]

      15              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Mr. Chair?

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.  Denise.

      17              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Do you think

      18   this would be an appropriate time --

      19              MS. SHORTALL:  Yes.  Well, first of

      20   all, in terms of doing the formal thing, is that a

      21   motion that you are making?

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Not yet.



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       1              MS. SHORTALL:  All right.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I have it on the

       3   table for discussion.  And at the appropriate

       4   time, I'll turn it into a motion.

       5              MS. SHORTALL:  All right.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Though I -- it's a

       7   motion in part.  We have to reach an agreement.

       8              DR. MURRAY:  Maybe -- this is just

       9   procedure -- if we read all these little homework

      10   assignments over lunch, and have some brief

      11   discussion, then I think we could quickly get to

      12   the motion that would include all four of them.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yeah.  We make

      14   recommendations with approval of the majority of

      15   all committee members present, so we are going to

      16   have to take a count in some way.  It doesn't have

      17   to be a motion, I think, but we are going to have

      18   to be sure we have a majority.

      19              But let's come back to the point that

      20   you were about to make, Denise.

      21              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Yeah.  I was

      22   discussing with Sarah during lunch that -- just



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       1   elaborating a little bit more on when I was

       2   talking about rehabilitation -- we've had, in the

       3   fire service an NFK standard, Standard 1584, on

       4   rehabilitation.

       5              And I was finding out through

       6   conversation with Sarah that for some people that

       7   language might be a little confusing.

       8              What that means is during extensive

       9   stressful work periods, we have a required rehab

      10   before you go back into a stressful environment or

      11   an ideal age immediate hazard to life environment.

      12              And we do medical monitoring.  We have

      13   a person, you know, take a rest break.  We stress

      14   the hydration.

      15              Because what we've found through

      16   looking at all sorts of different studies,

      17   particularly one in Canada, is that people were so

      18   dehydrated, and we go from zero to 100 so quickly,

      19   and wearing heavy gear and doing intense

      20   activities, that it causes our blood to be

      21   predisposed to clotting, which then increases our

      22   chance of cardiovascular problems.



                                                         303

       1              So that's one thing amongst a lot of

       2   others.

       3              And so we have this rehab standard.

       4   It's all set.  It's all ready to go.  And one of

       5   the things I talked to Sarah about was, it's

       6   just -- it's there.  It's 1584.  Make a motion to

       7   use it as a resource for OSHA, if they so choose,

       8   just a recommendation.

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.  I

      10   neglected to point out that Sarah shared with me

      11   that the sentence that you had written about this,

      12   and that the last sentence of the draft that I

      13   read was essentially what you had provided, with

      14   the exception of mentioning the NFPA guideline

      15   specifically.

      16              So what I read is this activity should

      17   also include consideration of proper rest and

      18   rehabilitation procedures for such work and

      19   working environments.

      20              What I left off was "based on the NFPA

      21   standard on rehabilitation."

      22              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Oh, okay.



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       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And I did that --

       2              DR. BUCHAN:  [inaudible]

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I did that because I

       4   didn't think that the committee members were

       5   sufficiently familiar with that to get that

       6   specific.

       7              DR. BUCHAN:  [inaudible] have a heat

       8   and stress --

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Right.  Without

      10   having another hour or more of discussion and

      11   background material, I'm a little uneasy about

      12   getting that specific.

      13              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  Yeah, I wasn't

      14   sure.  I thought maybe part of our job was to

      15   offer up those resources if they were done.  But

      16   you know, we're being broad, I guess is what

      17   you -- got it.

      18              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.  Just a

      19   suggestion, instead of referencing a specific

      20   standard, just indicate consideration of National

      21   Consensus Standards --

      22              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  There you go.



                                                         305

       1                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Just depending --

       3   okay.

       4              MR. KNOWLES:  There are a number of

       5   National Consensus Standards which may have

       6   applicability, and that would give the committee

       7   the flexibility to --

       8                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So a sentence that

      10   says the agency should -- or NACOSH advises --

      11              MR. KNOWLES:  That are applicable to --

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  -- consideration of

      13   applicable consensus standards.

      14              MS. SHORTALL:  But then you could also

      15   put in here, "such as," like the one that --

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I know we could.

      17   Something makes me a little uneasy about that.

      18              Peg Seminario.

      19              And then Bill Borwegen.

      20              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, I think there's

      21   probably other information out there than just

      22   consensus standards.  And so if you're going to



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       1   start saying that, recommended guidelines,

       2   consensus standards, make it broader in terms of

       3   what you're --

       4              Could you just read the last sentence?

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yeah.  It just said,

       6   "This should also include consideration of proper

       7   rest and rehabilitation procedures for such work

       8   and working environments."

       9              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, you may want to

      10   say, not just procedures.

      11              MR. GODDARD:  Best practices --

      12              MS. SEMINARIO:  No.  Taking into

      13   account existing consensus standards, guidelines,

      14   practices, recommendations.  There's a broader

      15   universe of -- we talked about the military,

      16   right, having certain regiments --

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So it would be

      18   something along the lines of, this should also

      19   include consideration of existing proper rest and

      20   rehabilitation guidelines, and programs?

      21              MS. SEMINARIO:  Practices, right.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Rehabilitation



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       1   guidelines and practices.

       2                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       3              DR. BUCHAN:  Would the Coast Guard have

       4   heat stress recommendations?

       5              DR. MURRAY:  Well, I think the sentence

       6   would say that it's out there, so we don't have to

       7   list every one of them.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So it now reads:

       9              "It should also include consideration

      10   of existing rest and rehabilitation guidelines and

      11   practices for such work and working environments."

      12              Are you comfortable with that?

      13              MS. SHORTALL:  Is this information that

      14   they hand out?  Or ...

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'm sorry.  That

      16   applies to -- there were two very specific

      17   recommendations.

      18              One was for the immediate provision of

      19   information and advice.

      20              And the other one expedited

      21   establishment of more formal guidelines and/or

      22   rules.



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       1              And that whole exercise needs to

       2   include consideration of these existing practices

       3   and guidelines.

       4              Are people comfortable with that?

       5              Okay.

       6              We're going to have time to recycle

       7   back through these again before we're done.

       8   Because I understand this stuff, especially if

       9   you're trying to do it all in your head, requires

      10   a little bit of percolating.

      11              Peter?

      12              MR. DOOLEY:  Another -- I mean, an

      13   issue that's part of this same problem is that --

      14   and I know it was mentioned in the Exxon Valdez

      15   cleanup where the long working hours were not

      16   considered when both the company and agencies were

      17   looking at exposure limits.  They were assuming a

      18   40-hour work week.

      19              So for all the health and safety

      20   evaluations that are being done, it needs to be,

      21   you know, considered the working hours that are

      22   involved with these workers.



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       1              So it's a little -- it's a different

       2   aspect, but may be something that we want to

       3   include.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  It seems to me,

       5   Peter, that you're getting at a subject that we

       6   discussed briefly, but don't have on the list for

       7   full recommendation; namely, the exposure

       8   assessment, and how it --

       9              MR. DOOLEY:  Well, yeah, exposure --

      10   yeah, but also, like, for safety -- in other

      11   words, safety procedures can be affected by long

      12   working hours.

      13              So the agencies need to be considering

      14   that when they're looking at what the --

      15   characterizing the job, and coming up with

      16   recommendations.

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Roy?

      18              DR. BUCHAN:  I think you need to know

      19   some of these guidelines, like the military and

      20   the ACGIH recommendations heat stress guidelines

      21   are all based on a 40-hour work week, 8 hours a

      22   day.  They don't go beyond that.  That's a basic



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       1   assumption that they have.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  You're raising a

       3   legitimate concern.  It's part of the whole set of

       4   issues we're discussing.  But I am reluctant to,

       5   in effect, start Christmas treeing the specific

       6   recommendations we're making.

       7              It will be too easy for us to start

       8   adding things to the point that -- I think it goes

       9   beyond what we can reasonably consider adequately

      10   in one day.

      11              So maybe we'll come back to that, but

      12   let's hold on for right now.

      13              Okay.

      14              Let's move onto the next one.  I think

      15   Peg had something that you were working on for a

      16   recommendation.

      17              MS. SEMINARIO:  The recommendation I

      18   was asked to work on deals with the question of

      19   resources.  And I'll just read it.

      20              "The Gulf coast response is requiring

      21   and will continue to require significant OSHA and

      22   NIOSH resources to ensure the protection of



                                                         311

       1   workers involved in the response.

       2              "President Obama has stated clearly and

       3   emphatically that BP will be required to pay for

       4   the response and cleanup.

       5              "To this end, NACOSH recommends that as

       6   soon as possible OSHA and NIOSH prepare a

       7   comprehensive assessment of the resources, both

       8   monetary and staff time, that will be required to

       9   fully and effectively protect workers involved in

      10   the response.

      11              "This assessment should include the

      12   cost of agency resources, required outside

      13   experts, and immediate and long-term evaluation of

      14   health impacts of this spill.

      15              "In addition, the agency should

      16   identify other activities that are being foregone

      17   as a result of the diversion of resources.

      18              "The agencies should seek reimbursement

      19   and funding for these activities from BP as soon

      20   as possible.

      21              "If there is difficulty in securing

      22   immediate payment from BP, the committee



                                                         312

       1   recommends the agency seek supplemental funding to

       2   cover the cost of response activities, so that the

       3   agencies will have sufficient resources to

       4   undertake other planned activities and programs."

       5              And the point of that last line is,

       6   it's not going to help OSHA and NIOSH if they

       7   don't get reimbursed for two years and they can't

       8   do their other work as a result of all their money

       9   being sucked in, and their time being sucked into

      10   the Gulf Coast issues.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill Borwegen.

      12              MR. BORWEGEN:  I'm not sure if it

      13   captures it, but I'm wondering if we could argue

      14   for, actually, advanced dollars, you know, as

      15   opposed to billable hours.  Reimbursement --

      16              MS. SEMINARIO:  That's what I said.  I

      17   said for payment --

      18              MR. BORWEGEN:  Okay.  Upfront money --

      19              MS. SEMINARIO:  Both.  It was -- that's

      20   what I basically put in here.

      21              Reimbursement and funding for these

      22   activities.  So it's both the past reimbursement



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       1   and forward funding.

       2              MR. BORWEGEN:  "And advanced funding"?

       3   I don't know, just to clarify.

       4              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yeah, future funding,

       5   right, or advanced funding.

       6              MR. BORWEGEN:  Advanced.

       7              MS. SEMINARIO:  Advanced funding.

       8   Uh-huh.

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Tim?

      10              DR. KEY:  Mike, Tim Key.

      11              We also want to include a phrase, "and

      12   other involved parties," because Transoceanic and

      13   Halliburton are involved, and BP will say, it's

      14   not ours; it's theirs.  And then, you know, lose

      15   the whole thing.

      16                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'm not sufficiently

      18   knowledgeable to answer that.

      19              DR. BUCHAN:  We have somebody who was a

      20   solicitor over here who could handle that.  I

      21   mean ...

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That's not a ...



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       1                       (LAUGHTER)

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That's a broader

       3   question than --

       4              DR. BUCHAN:  I think that's beyond our

       5   scope.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg, do you know?

       7              Does anybody have sufficient

       8   information to address that?

       9              What we do know, and I think Peg's

      10   statement incorporated this, is that we were told

      11   by OSHA that BP has agreed to reimburse, or to

      12   pay, to make whole.

      13              DR. MURRAY:  The language I used in

      14   what I wrote was "responsible parties."  Just

      15   because I wasn't sure if BP was the only

      16   responsible party.  But we know BP is a

      17   responsible party.  I don't know if there are

      18   others.  I don't know.  But --

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, what if -- what

      20   about just adding, "BP and other responsible

      21   parties", in case there are others?

      22              DR. KEY:  Right.  Well, the thing is



                                                         315

       1   Transoceanic owned the platform.  Halliburton did

       2   the work.  And they've all pointed fingers at each

       3   other.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Right.  Keith

       5   Goddard?

       6              MR. GODDARD:  It gets complicated

       7   quickly, because it's not a fixed drilling rig,

       8   which gives us different jurisdictional issues.

       9   It's a vessel.  And it doesn't -- it's not

      10   registered under an American flag --

      11              UNKNOWN VOICE:  That's just great.

      12              MR. GODDARD:  -- so it gets

      13   complicated.  And right there, that's an

      14   example --

      15                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      16              DR. KEY:  I would say that Linda's

      17   inclusion of "responsible parties" would be

      18   reasonable.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg Seminario?

      20              MS. SEMINARIO:  What I would just

      21   suggest right now is that we put that in brackets,

      22   "and other responsible parties," and then just



                                                         316

       1   find out, which I think the agency can tell us, as

       2   to whether or not the arrangement right now --

       3   because there's an arrangement right now that BP

       4   has said they're going to pay.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I understand the need

       6   for more information.  But the recommendation that

       7   we make has to be what we can recommend at the end

       8   of this meeting.

       9              DR. MURRAY:  But let me ask this, I

      10   don't mean this as a legal question.  But if we

      11   use the language of "BP and any other responsible

      12   parties," it doesn't -- that leaves it open either

      13   way.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think that's a safe

      15   way to do it.  Yeah.

      16              Bill Borwegen.

      17              MR. BORWEGEN:  Well, my understanding

      18   is that BP owns the oil, and the oil is what's

      19   causing the problem.

      20              So I -- you know, BP -- I think BP's

      21   going to have their own legal thing with these

      22   other companies, but the bottom line is the oil is



                                                         317

       1   what's causing the problem, and BP owns the oil,

       2   apparently 100 percent.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Here's where I think

       4   we're on safe ground.  We've heard -- I think all

       5   of us have heard statements from BP saying that

       6   they're accepting at least some degree of

       7   financial responsibility, and we've heard that

       8   from government agencies as well.  So we're safe

       9   in including BP in a sentence like this.

      10              I think that since we don't know

      11   whether there are others, a general phrase like,

      12   "other responsible parties," is safe.  If there

      13   are some, they would be included; and if there

      14   aren't any, then it's a moot point.

      15              Is that fair enough?

      16              Other comments to Peg's language.

      17              Any uneasiness with it?

      18              Okay.  Emory.

      19              MR. KNOWLES:  Yes.  Emory Knowles.

      20              I'm a little bit uneasy with this whole

      21   issue of talking about recovering dollars from BP,

      22   or whatever.  This is an advisory committee.  We



                                                         318

       1   can certainly -- I can see us certainly advising

       2   OSHA to make public the impact of the outreach

       3   initiatives on the agency, and cost of the agency.

       4              I don't think that this committee can

       5   specify how OSHA or NIOSH should proceed to

       6   recover any of those costs.

       7              So I have some uneasiness in terms of

       8   what this whole motion really is saying.

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg, any -- what were

      10   your thoughts as you were drafting that?

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  My thoughts are the

      12   discussions that we have had with the agencies, as

      13   one of the huge concerns here, is that this

      14   activity is going to suck the life out of these

      15   agencies and they're not going to be able to do

      16   anything else they need to do.

      17              And so, there is a need, as I said, not

      18   only to get funding for this ASAP, that funding

      19   should come from BP, as BP has said.

      20              But if not, I really do think the

      21   agencies have got to look to some other -- whether

      22   there's a supplemental appropriation to be



                                                         319

       1   repaid -- the whole point here is that we want

       2   these agencies to function and do more than what

       3   is going on in the Gulf of Mexico.

       4              And so it's both the two parts of

       5   responsible party, but there's a locality of other

       6   activities that need to be undertaken by these

       7   agencies, and if they don't have the money right

       8   now because it's all going into the Gulf of

       9   Mexico, that issue has got to be dealt with,

      10   either getting the money right now from BP or

      11   getting some supplemental funding, or else all the

      12   other things we've talked about aren't going to

      13   happen.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Now, my thought about

      15   this is that I heard Dr. Michaels indicate that

      16   the agency has been assured that it will be made

      17   financially whole for the resources they've

      18   diverted to this.

      19              My experience is that it's more often

      20   than not the case that assurance of this kind fall

      21   through the cracks as subsequent events develop.

      22              And I think that I heard Dr. Michaels



                                                         320

       1   say that he would not be adverse to advice coming

       2   from this committee that basically would be along

       3   the lines of pressing the agency to, or stressing

       4   that the agency should pursue this vigorously,

       5   rather than just passively let it happen.

       6              With that in mind, Peg, could you read

       7   the operative language from your draft again, to

       8   see if it captures that?

       9              MS. SEMINARIO:  I don't need to go

      10   through -- basically, one was just a cost

      11   assessment, to enumerate what the needs are, not

      12   just the past billing, but looking forward here to

      13   what those are.

      14              "The agencies should seek reimbursement

      15   and advanced funding for these activities from BP

      16   and any other responsible parties as soon as

      17   possible.

      18              "If there is difficulty in securing

      19   immediate payment, the committee recommends the

      20   agency seek supplemental funding to cover the

      21   costs of response activities, so that the agencies

      22   will have sufficient resources to undertake other



                                                         321

       1   planned activities and programs."

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Does that sound okay?

       3                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Bill Borwegen.

       5              MR. BORWEGEN:  It doesn't sound like

       6   we're really going above and beyond what BP's

       7   telling us in their daily full-page Washington

       8   Post, you know, newspaper ads.

       9              So, you know, I mean, they've already

      10   told us that this is what they want to do.  So

      11   we're just asking them -- so this is just kind of

      12   a -- we're echoing what their policy is.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes, Joe.

      14              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

      15              I think we should have a statement like

      16   this in the proposal, because I think we should be

      17   clear that we don't want OSHA to sacrifice the

      18   other programs that they have planned because

      19   there is this emergency that has to be addressed.

      20              So I think it's important that it be

      21   there.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Any other



                                                         322

       1   thoughts about this one?  We're doing okay here,

       2   but what I want to do is move onto the third of

       3   the specific recommendations that I think Peter

       4   was working on.

       5              Then I want to come back to the each of

       6   the three, go back over them once more, and see if

       7   we have a majority or not on each of them.

       8              MR. DOOLEY:  Peter Dooley with

       9   LaborSafe.

      10              I'm proud to say I think I have the

      11   shortest version of this.

      12                       (LAUGHTER)

      13              MR. DOOLEY:  But, "NACOSH recommends

      14   that OSHA and NIOSH design, implement and evaluate

      15   pilot projects to identify hazards and field test

      16   the best available control technology for oil

      17   cleanup workers in the Gulf.

      18              "Advanced worker education and training

      19   will also be developed and implemented to utilize

      20   this control technology.

      21              "These projects may be done in

      22   conjunction with NIOSH health hazard evaluations,



                                                         323

       1   if the utilization of control technology is the

       2   primary focus of the project."

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Reactions to that

       4   language.

       5              Bill Borwegen.

       6              MR. BORWEGEN:  I don't know what

       7   authority, I guess we don't -- I think we'd be

       8   remiss not to mention the role of NIEHS to the

       9   degree that we could.

      10              And, you know, they have a whole worker

      11   education and training program.  They actually --

      12   they're down there now doing training with OSHA

      13   and NIOSH and the Coast Guard and everyone else.

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg --

      15              MS. SHORTALL:  I do have a question --

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Sarah, Sarah

      17   Shortall.

      18                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      19              MS. SHORTALL:  -- you want to make sure

      20   that the language is clear in what you're asking

      21   the agencies to do.

      22              In your statement, you said that it



                                                         324

       1   would be pilot projects of the best available

       2   technology.

       3              So what would the pilot project show?

       4   Would it show it's the best available technology?

       5   Or would it do something else?

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Why don't you read

       7   the sentence again.

       8              MR. DOOLEY:  Sure.  Sure.

       9              "It recommends OSHA and NIOSH design,

      10   implement and evaluate pilot projects to identify

      11   hazards and field test the best available control

      12   technology for oil cleanup workers in the Gulf."

      13              MS. SHORTALL:  So a question I'm asking

      14   is, are you going to choose one of the -- are you

      15   suggesting the agency choose what is the best, and

      16   then field test it?

      17              Or field test what is available to find

      18   out what's the best?

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Linda Rae Murray.

      20              DR. MURRAY:  I think that may be a

      21   little bit of a detail that may be unnecessary.  I

      22   think -- so you could have a study -- there may be



                                                         325

       1   three, quote/unquote best, but different

       2   technologies, and they might do a project to

       3   evaluate the effect of each one of them in the

       4   field.

       5              You know, just because there's a

       6   consensus that this is the best respirator for

       7   solvents or something like that, doesn't mean

       8   necessarily on a boat in the middle of the ocean,

       9   at 100 degrees, that it is the best.

      10              But I think the key thing here is that

      11   it's going to be evaluating and field testing.

      12              I don't know if it helps you to drop

      13   the word "pilot," and just say the word

      14   "projects."  I don't know if that would helps,

      15   so ...

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Roy Buchan.

      17              DR. BUCHAN:  Well, I think at some

      18   point you kind of need to define "control" by

      19   saying "control health and safety hazards."

      20              I don't know how you'd put that in

      21   there, but I don't think we're talking about

      22   controlling the oil coming out.



                                                         326

       1              DR. MURRAY:  If we could figure out how

       2   to do that, that would be --

       3                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       4                       (LAUGHTER)

       5              MR. DOOLEY:  "The best available health

       6   and safety control technology"?

       7              UNKNOWN VOICE:  Yeah, that's fine.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think that's

       9   appropriate.

      10              Yes, Susan Randolph, and then Bill.

      11              MS. RANDOLPH:  Susan Randolph, UNC.

      12              And carrying that last point that you

      13   made, Peter, it sounds very familiar to, I guess

      14   the third -- from the third recommendations that

      15   Denise wrote in her part of conducting pilot

      16   studies that identify the most effective worker

      17   protective -- protection methods for specific oil

      18   spill recovery test jobs.

      19              So I'm getting a little confused, I

      20   guess, between sort of the work group and this

      21   particular piece in recommendations that we're

      22   making now.



                                                         327

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think what you were

       2   referring to was, when you started -- the language

       3   describing the work group we're setting up.  And

       4   it does include reference to some of these

       5   specific things.  And it just gives us the

       6   opportunity as the work group continues over time

       7   to continue to address these issues, even beyond

       8   the specific recommendations we make today.

       9              So there's a little bit of redundancy,

      10   but what you were just reading from was not one of

      11   our recommendations.  It was just the descriptions

      12   for ourselves about our work group.

      13              MS. RANDOLPH:  But off that, really

      14   almost sounds like it was what Peter was saying.

      15   So I was just trying to have some clarity as to --

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  There is some

      17   redundancy.

      18              Bill Borwegen, and then Peg Seminario.

      19              MR. BORWEGEN:  Peter, can you repeat

      20   the part about training, what you say about

      21   training?

      22              MR. DOOLEY:  So, what I say is,



                                                         328

       1   "Advanced worker education and training will also

       2   be developed and implemented to utilize this

       3   control technology."

       4              MS. SEMINARIO:  Should.  Should.  It's

       5   a recommendation.

       6              MR. DOOLEY:  Right.  Yes.

       7              MR. BORWEGEN:  I'm thinking about NIEHS

       8   and how they have a minimum training criteria

       9   document.

      10              Are we asking OSHA to --

      11                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      12              MR. BORWEGEN:  I mean, should we be

      13   asking OSHA and NIOSH to define the minimum level

      14   of training that is acceptable for doing the

      15   different jobs?

      16              Either through -- I'm thinking of the

      17   blood borne pathogen standard that specifies, you

      18   know, the six or eight topical areas that need to

      19   be covered.

      20              Right now it seems to be based on

      21   length of training, but I'm not sure if it lists,

      22   you know -- you know, maybe this is too detailed



                                                         329

       1   but all I can tell you is it has a major impact on

       2   implementation.

       3              And if you -- I'm wondering if we

       4   should be asking NIOSH and OSHA to specify the

       5   topics that should be covered in a training

       6   specific to the job task that workers are being

       7   assigned to perform.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg Seminario.

       9              MS. SEMINARIO:  Somewhat related to

      10   this, one of the things that has not yet happened,

      11   and I raised it earlier with John Howard and David

      12   Michaels, is that we don't have a good

      13   characterization of the operations and the jobs,

      14   what's involved with them in terms of the, you

      15   know, the type of work, the hours of work, the

      16   exposure to hazards, and what specific protections

      17   are being recommended, what levels of training.

      18              And, to me, that's the first thing this

      19   agency should be doing, before looking at specific

      20   pilots or whatever, on control measures.

      21              Let's do a -- immediately -- a

      22   characterization of the operations and jobs, the



                                                         330

       1   major operations and jobs, and get that

       2   information in place, so that it is readily

       3   available and accessible to the contractors who

       4   are doing that work, the workers who are involved

       5   in that work, the health officials who are getting

       6   in reports, the practitioners who are seeing these

       7   workers.

       8              It doesn't exist right now, and so, to

       9   me, that would be the major recommendation that I

      10   would make to the agencies right now, what is

      11   desperately needed, and for that to be updated as

      12   more information comes forward about exposures,

      13   controls.  But to put it all together -- but to

      14   put it together based upon the operations and the

      15   jobs, because that's what people are doing.

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  What do people feel

      17   about that?

      18              Peter?

      19              MR. DOOLEY:  Well, the only -- I mean,

      20   I am definitely comfortable with the idea of doing

      21   the -- in order to do this, you have to do, sort,

      22   of the --



                                                         331

       1                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       2              MR. DOOLEY:  -- of the job, but I would

       3   also be saying that the control -- you know, sort

       4   of, the best control measures can be sort of done

       5   at the same time as the characterization of the

       6   job, or at least described as, you know, as best

       7   as we know it.

       8              MS. SEMINARIO:  Right.  And then update

       9   it as you have more information.

      10              MR. DOOLEY:  Right.

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  Right.  And so -- and I

      12   think also the training, what level of training,

      13   and on what issues, should be included for these

      14   different kinds of jobs and operations.

      15              Because 4 hours, 8 hours, 12 hours, 24,

      16   we don't know.  And nobody knows.  Maybe OSHA

      17   knows, maybe BP knows, but nobody else knows.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So, what I'm hearing,

      19   Peg, is this suggestion that we kind of reframe

      20   this recommendation in such a way that it would

      21   start off by saying that NACOSH advises OSHA and

      22   NIOSH to cooperate on an assessment of --



                                                         332

       1              MS. SEMINARIO:  But a characterization,

       2   more than an assessment.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  With a

       4   characterization of -- help me with where you're

       5   going with this.

       6              MS. SEMINARIO:  The identification and

       7   characterization of the major operations and jobs

       8   involved in the Gulf Coast --

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And the hazards

      10   associated with these?

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  The hazards associated

      12   with these.

      13              Also, information on the numbers of

      14   workers involved in these activities.

      15              The recommended -- well, any

      16   information on exposures.  Exposure monitoring

      17   results.

      18              Recommended control measures,

      19   including, you know, the best available control

      20   measures.

      21              Recommended training.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peter, does that work



                                                         333

       1   for you?

       2              MR. DOOLEY:  Yes.  Absolutely.  Yeah.

       3   Yeah.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Does that

       5   formulation -- what does the committee feel about

       6   that formulation?

       7              DR. MURRAY:  I think that's good.  You

       8   know, I think the spirit of what Peter has written

       9   is just to say we need to intentionally evaluate

      10   and study [inaudible].

      11              And Peg's expanded that beyond just

      12   training and control technology, to these other

      13   basic -- and we all agree that those are basic

      14   things, but I don't think it hurts to list them.

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Did anybody write

      16   fast enough to capture most of this?

      17              MS. SEMINARIO:  I can write it down.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Can you do that while

      19   we come back to the --

      20              MS. SEMINARIO:  Uh-huh.

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  What I want to do is

      22   go back and re-read the other two, and see if they



                                                         334

       1   still make sense to people before we poll to see

       2   if we have a majority.

       3              And I would just point out, since this

       4   is the first time we've done this, that the

       5   paragraph in 1912(a) that addresses advice and

       6   recommendations from the committee, indicates, as

       7   I said earlier, that these recommendations be made

       8   with the approval of a majority of the committee

       9   members present, presuming we have a quorum.

      10              And that the chair shall include in any

      11   such advice or recommendation any concurring or

      12   dissenting views as well as any abstentions.

      13              So people may vote against, and people

      14   may abstain.  And if so, I would be required to

      15   pass that on to the agencies.

      16              Also, any member may submit his or her

      17   own advice and recommendations in the form of

      18   individual views, if you so choose.  So I just

      19   want to make sure you understand that.

      20              With that in mind, let me ask Linda to

      21   re-read what would be the introductory section.

      22              And this would be followed by the



                                                         335

       1   committee makes the following three

       2   recommendations to OSHA and NIOSH, and they will

       3   be listed separately.

       4              DR. MURRAY:  "The Gulf oil spill of

       5   2010 represents one of the largest threats to

       6   environmental quality to health of workers in

       7   surrounding communities.

       8              "An appropriate response to this public

       9   health emergency will require the use of broad

      10   public health interventions and tools in order to

      11   protect the environment and the health of workers

      12   and communities.

      13              "We urge a coordinated and unified

      14   implementation of worker and community emergency

      15   temporary standards in order to protect the health

      16   of the population.

      17              "We are to coordinate a communication

      18   and media plan to inform workers in the general

      19   public about risks to human health in the

      20   environment, and reflects the urgent and rapidly

      21   evolving situation in the Gulf.

      22              "We urge the active and continuing



                                                         336

       1   involvement and coordination of all relevant

       2   federal agencies; for example, OSHA, NIOSH, NIEHS,

       3   EPA, FDA, Coast Guard, state and local health

       4   departments, civic and community groups, industry

       5   and labor experts, to address this emergency.

       6              "Appropriate response to this threat to

       7   health and environment require adequate funding,

       8   which must be borne by those industries

       9   responsible for this disaster."

      10              And I didn't write down the sentence

      11   you said, for the following --

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  The --

      13              DR. MURRAY:  We make the following

      14   recommendations --

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  NACOSH makes the

      16   following recommendations to OSHA and NIOSH.

      17              DR. MURRAY:  Okay.

      18              MS. SHORTALL:  What is the urging?

      19   What does it mean to urge --

      20              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  What does it mean to

      21   urge?  Well, these are -- these are introductory

      22   statements --



                                                         337

       1              DR. MURRAY:  It's not a recommendation.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  It's not a

       3   recommendation.  These are introductory

       4   statements.

       5                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       6              DR. MURRAY:  I deliberately try to do

       7   avoid the word "recommendation."

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes.  Joe Van Houten.

       9              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.  I

      10   just had an issue with one word.  Where we are

      11   asking individuals or entities to bear the costs,

      12   I would prefer that we use the word "companies"

      13   instead of "industries."  Because "industry," to

      14   me, implies --

      15              DR. MURRAY:  Oh, yes --

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Good point.

      17   Excellent point.  Thank you.

      18              Any other catches?

      19              All right.  Let's go on then, to the

      20   specific recommendations, and I'm going to come

      21   back and ask for a show of hands or some other

      22   response to each of these separately.  So we're



                                                         338

       1   not going to do this as an entire group, but we'll

       2   do the preamble and then each of the three

       3   recommendations separately.

       4              MS. SHORTALL:  I'm sorry to bring up

       5   one more thing about Linda Rae.

       6              Are you saying that -- are you saying

       7   that things such as the coordination of agencies,

       8   is that something that you would like to see

       9   happen?  Or is that necessary for an effective

      10   public health response?

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I would say that it

      12   doesn't actually matter, that we believe that this

      13   is warranted.  It is not a formal recommendation,

      14   so I think an expression of general belief about

      15   these things is probably sufficient.

      16              Does that work, Sarah?

      17              MS. SHORTALL:  Oh, I was just going to

      18   suggest, you know, if you believe, you know, if

      19   you believe there should be coordination and this

      20   and that, you know, state what your belief is.

      21              DR. MURRAY:  Well, again, me, you could

      22   make all of this a recommendation.  And I think --



                                                         339

       1   I think it better meets the spirit of what we

       2   talked about at this meeting to leave it as a

       3   preamble.  And I think we can make three very

       4   specific recommendations.

       5              Clearly, there are a bunch of other

       6   good things that should be going on, many of which

       7   are going on.

       8              So I'm comfortable with the three

       9   recommendations we have.  And this is sort of a

      10   context for it.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And let's hold; we'll

      12   come back and do a show of hands about that.

      13              We'll go on to the first of the three

      14   recommendations.

      15              This one has a little explanatory

      16   language before it gets to the active

      17   recommendation itself.

      18              "Gulf oil spill recovery activities

      19   have been characterized by law" --

      20              Actually, there is a question about

      21   this that Sarah raised, that I think is worth

      22   considering.  And I'll come back to that after I



                                                         340

       1   read this.

       2              "Gulf oil spill recovery activities

       3   have been characterized by long work hours under

       4   conditions requiring extreme physical exertion and

       5   exposure to hot and humid environments.

       6              "NACOSH believes that long hours of

       7   work, whether measured by individual work shift or

       8   weekly, especially under conditions of physical

       9   exertion and heat exposure, are associated with

      10   work-related injuries and other adverse health

      11   effects.

      12              "While NACOSH does not recommend

      13   specific limits on work hours or schedules at this

      14   time, the committee believes that at least work

      15   shifts more than 12 hours and work weeks more than

      16   60 hours are excessive.

      17              "NACOSH advises that OSHA and NIOSH

      18   provide immediate information and advice to

      19   employers and employees regarding work hours and

      20   work schedules considered excessive.

      21              "NACOSH further advises the agencies to

      22   expedite the establishment of more formal



                                                         341

       1   guidelines and rules governing work hours and work

       2   schedules, including but not limited to the

       3   possible promulgation of an emergency temporary

       4   standard for Gulf oil spill recovery workers.

       5              "This should also include consideration

       6   of existing rest and rehabilitation guidelines and

       7   practices for such work and working environments."

       8              The specific question that Sarah asked

       9   had to do with exactly what do we mean in this

      10   statement by a "12-hour work shift".

      11              There's certainly, in some industries

      12   and occupations where people are on duty for more

      13   than 12 hours, and we might not necessarily

      14   include all such activities being excessive.

      15              So there's a fine point here, and I

      16   don't want to over -- I don't want to become too

      17   extreme in the way we address this.  So, if

      18   somebody can help out with this --

      19              MS. SHORTALL:  I was going to suggest

      20   that you add the language, under the work shifts

      21   of 12 hours or more, or more than 60 hours a week,

      22   under the -- under the conditions described above.



                                                         342

       1              I think that's what you're trying to

       2   get at, so that if a supervisor who is in an air

       3   conditioned office dealing with that, a 12-hour

       4   shift may not pose the same problem as a person

       5   walking along the shore in 100-degree weather,

       6   trying to pull up booms.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Bill Borwegen?

       8              MR. BORWEGEN:  I agree with Sarah.  And

       9   I would argue that 60 hours, or 12 hours may be

      10   excessive under very physically demanding tasks

      11   under -- you know, under --

      12              MS. SHORTALL:  The conditions --

      13              MR. BORWEGEN:  -- under hot -- you

      14   know, under, you know, under high heat conditions.

      15              I mean, I don't want us to -- you know,

      16   you flip the coin, I mean, 60-hour weeks and

      17   12-hour days may not be appropriate for a --

      18   highly physically demanding jobs under very hot

      19   conditions.  So --

      20                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yeah, Roy Buchan.

      22              DR. BUCHAN:  According to current



                                                         343

       1   guidelines, and so on and so forth," we could

       2   shorten that.

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I think that Sarah's

       4   language might be a neat way of dealing with this,

       5   by simply adding, where it says "more than 12

       6   hours" -- "work shifts more than 12 hours and work

       7   weeks more than 60 hours are excessive under the

       8   conditions described above," that would address

       9   the specific circumstances without saying that

      10   there are no other circumstances in which limits

      11   are necessary.

      12              I would not --

      13                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Emory Knowles, did

      15   you have your hand up?

      16              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

      17              The only quandary I have relative to

      18   this is that as commented earlier by Roy, all the

      19   currently nationally recommended guidelines on

      20   heat stress are based on the 8-hour workday,

      21   40-hour work week.

      22              So how can we say that 12 hours is



                                                         344

       1   different than 10 hours is different than 14

       2   hours?  Should we even specify hours?

       3              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, that -- the

       4   point's well taken.  That's why I put in a

       5   qualifying phrase.  It may not sufficiently

       6   address what you're talking about, but let me

       7   explain what I did.

       8              I said, "The committee believes that at

       9   least work shifts more than 12 hours," you know,

      10   "under the conditions described above."

      11              I had the sense that, unless we said

      12   something specific, it becomes too general to be

      13   useful.  The agency could decide to get even

      14   tighter than that, and this would give them the

      15   opportunity to do it.

      16              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

      17              My only concern here is that there may

      18   be a large outcry from public health professionals

      19   if we specify a specific number of hours.

      20              So by qualifying that --

      21              DR. BUCHAN:  Maybe we could just say

      22   "excessive hours"?



                                                         345

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Joe Van Houten.

       2              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

       3              Would it be appropriate to specifically

       4   ask NIOSH to develop a model for what is

       5   appropriate in this case?

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Not -- I don't think

       7   so, if we hope to encourage some rapid action.

       8              The minute we say, "This needs to be

       9   studied," it no longer becomes an immediate act.

      10              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Okay.

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Linda Rae Murray.

      12              DR. MURRAY:  I, too, am a little

      13   worried about the 12 hours, and 60 hours that

      14   we've talked about today, because it almost

      15   implies that if it's 11 hours, it's okay.  So I'm

      16   trying to find a word that says ...

      17              The other thing that I think is

      18   missing, which may help us is that, even if --

      19   [inaudible] even if in some settings people after

      20   10-hour shift, or a, you know, in terms of an

      21   emergency response, we're talking about months,

      22   weeks at a time.



                                                         346

       1              So, maybe we could find some language

       2   that even goes back to the 8 hours and 40 hours a

       3   week that says, under these conditions, working

       4   times, and you know, longer than --

       5                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       6              DR. MURRAY:  -- 8 hours a day, 40 hours

       7   a week, for long periods of time, whatever we want

       8   to say, weeks or months, and then your language.

       9   This is shown to be difficult.

      10              So that implies that even the 8 hours

      11   maybe -- it doesn't say, but, you know, just says,

      12   this is our norm, 8 hours, 40 hours a week, and

      13   under these conditions, that alone may be -- "may

      14   be" you could use the word "may be" -- "may be

      15   excessive."

      16              And that clearly implies that 10 hours

      17   or 12 hours, or certainly 14 hours are even more

      18   of a concern.

      19              So some language like that, which, you

      20   know, doesn't have us working double shifts.

      21              And I think the emphasis here is that

      22   we're not talking about a, you know, fire in a



                                                         347

       1   company, in the middle of a city, and people work

       2   12-hour shifts and they go home for two days or

       3   something like that.  We're talking about a

       4   longitudinal exposure.

       5              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  So we're now

       6   considering something -- I'll come back to that.

       7              We're talking about something along the

       8   lines of, the committee believes that, under the

       9   conditions described above, work schedules and

      10   hours exceeding ... something ...

      11              DR. BUCHAN:  Or just say excessive work

      12   hours.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, we can't just

      14   say that unless we define it.  So we're trying to

      15   get language which indicates something that we

      16   believe is excessive.

      17              DR. MURRAY:  Something like "working

      18   conditions described above, which may last for

      19   weeks to months, any hours over 8 hours a day, 40

      20   hours a week, may be," whatever you said there.

      21                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  -- described who have



                                                         348

       1   work schedules and hours beyond the traditional 8

       2   hours a day and 40 hours a week may be --

       3                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  -- may be excessive,

       5   especially considering that these schedules may be

       6   required for a long period of time.

       7              DR. MURRAY:  Something like that, yeah.

       8   Exactly.

       9              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles again.

      10              Or perhaps "in excess of nationally

      11   recognized consensus standards."

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Well, again, this

      13   goes back to a discussion we had earlier.  Unless

      14   we all know what we're talking -- what we have in

      15   mind when we say "consensus" --

      16              MR. KNOWLES:  You have guidelines and

      17   stuff at the end of that.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That was in the

      19   recommendation for NIOSH and OSHA to establish

      20   such.

      21              MR. KNOWLES:  Yes.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Joe --



                                                         349

       1              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

       2              My suggestion was going to be coupling

       3   this with ongoing medical surveillance, that says,

       4   pick a timeframe, and then -- in saying that there

       5   needs to be ongoing medical surveillance, and the

       6   timeframe should be adjusted downward, based on

       7   results of that medical surveillance.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I've got some

       9   language here which might work.  Let me try this

      10   out.

      11              Bill, a comment first?

      12              MR. BORWEGEN:  I mean, to me, it's

      13   like, depending on the -- the level of physical

      14   demands of the job, combined with the

      15   environmental conditions, a typical work week,

      16   blah-blah-blah.  You know, a typical 8-hour,

      17   40-hour a week work week may need -- you know,

      18   whatever, may be excessive.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me try out this

      20   language.  And again, this would not be the active

      21   language on what we advise.  This would be a

      22   statement about what we believe.



                                                         350

       1              And then there's the action to provide

       2   information, and to expedite the development of

       3   rules and guidelines follows this.

       4              I would say this:

       5              "The committee believes that under the

       6   conditions described above," which dealt with

       7   physical exertion and heat -- "under the

       8   conditions described above, work schedules and

       9   hours in excess of traditional 8 hours a day and

      10   40 hours a week are likely to be excessive,

      11   especially if the schedules are required for

      12   extended periods."

      13              MS. SHORTALL:  Is likely or may?

      14              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Is likely.

      15              Not "may," "is likely."  That's

      16   stronger language.

      17              Anybody uncomfortable with that framing

      18   of it?

      19              Okay, great.

      20              Now, we just talked about one sentence

      21   in here.  For those who remember the rest of what

      22   was in here, was there any hiccups with it?



                                                         351

       1              Okay.

       2              Then let's -- I'm going to ask -- Peg

       3   is still working on the third recommendation, but

       4   I was going to ask her to go back and re-read the

       5   second --

       6                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  You need to hold your

       8   brain together while you finish?

       9              MS. SEMINARIO:  No, this computer just

      10   keeps going to sleep.

      11              So, all right.  Recommendation on

      12   resources.

      13              "The Gulf Coast response is requiring

      14   and will continue to require significant OSHA and

      15   NIOSH resources to ensure the protection of

      16   workers involved in the response.

      17              "President Obama has stated clearly and

      18   emphatically that BP will be required to pay for

      19   the response and cleanup.

      20              "To this end NACOSH recommends that, as

      21   soon as possible, OSHA and NIOSH prepare a

      22   comprehensive assessment of the resources, both



                                                         352

       1   monetary and staff time, that will be required to

       2   fully and effectively protect workers involved in

       3   the response.

       4              "This assessment should include the

       5   cost of agency resources, required outside

       6   experts, and the immediate and long-term

       7   evaluation of the health impacts of the spill.

       8              "In addition, the agency should

       9   identify other activities that are being foregone

      10   as a result of the diversion of resources.

      11              "The agency should seek reimbursement

      12   and advanced funding for these activities from BP

      13   and any other responsible parties as soon as

      14   possible.

      15              "If there is difficulty in securing

      16   immediate payment, the committee recommends the

      17   agency seek supplemental funding to cover the cost

      18   of the response activities, so the agencies will

      19   have sufficient resources to undertake other

      20   planned activities and programs."

      21              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Comments and thoughts

      22   about that?



                                                         353

       1              Yes, Joe Van Houten.

       2              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

       3              Just one thought at the end.  Instead

       4   of "other programs" how about "previously planned"

       5   or something that --

       6              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yeah, that --

       7              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  -- something that

       8   gives the impression that these were things that

       9   were on the docket or on the agenda to be done,

      10   and they had to be halted because of this event.

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  Okay.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Read that

      13   sentence again, as amended.

      14              MS. SEMINARIO:  "So that the agencies

      15   will have sufficient resources to undertake

      16   previously planned activities and programs."

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Any problems

      18   with that?

      19              Any other concerns, objections,

      20   additions, modifications to Peg's language?

      21              Okay.

      22              Do you have the language for the third



                                                         354

       1   one?

       2              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, I think I can

       3   cobble it together here from what I did before.

       4              Basically, that it makes it easier to

       5   do these as two pieces --

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Two separate

       7   recommendations?

       8              MS. SEMINARIO:  No, no.  One

       9   recommendation, but --

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Two parts.  Okay.

      11              MS. SEMINARIO:  Rather than mushing

      12   them, just combining them.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  This is all

      14   number 3 recommendation.

      15              MS. SEMINARIO:  "NACOSH recommends that

      16   OSHA and NIOSH identify, evaluate and characterize

      17   the major operations and jobs that are being

      18   conducted in the Gulf Coast oil response.

      19              "For each of these operations and jobs,

      20   this evaluation should include:

      21              A description of the operation or jobs;

      22              The number of workers involved in this



                                                         355

       1   work;

       2              The potential hazards and exposures

       3   presented by this work, including the results of

       4   any exposure monitoring, potential health effects

       5   or injuries associated with such exposures;

       6              And any reports of such occurrences,

       7   recommended control measures, recommended

       8   training, including the length of training and

       9   topics that should be covered.

      10              "In addition, NACOSH recommends that

      11   OSHA, NIOSH" --

      12              I would say, "in conjunction with

      13   NIEHS," because we can't recommend to NIEHS.

      14              "design, implement and evaluate pilot

      15   projects to identify and field test the best

      16   available control technology and methods for oil

      17   cleanup workers in the Gulf.

      18              "Advanced worker education and training

      19   should also be developed and implemented to

      20   utilize the control technologies.

      21              "These projects may be done in

      22   conjunction with NIOSH HEEs if the utilization of



                                                         356

       1   control technology is the primary focus of the

       2   projects."

       3              Then, one last sentence:

       4              "These characterizations and

       5   recommendations should be readily accessible to

       6   employers, workers, occupational safety and health

       7   professionals or community, and should be updated

       8   as new information becomes available."

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  That was a lot

      10   to put in our brains all at once, but, reactions

      11   to it?

      12              Emory Knowles.

      13              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

      14              Just one comment on your -- I believe

      15   what you read on the computer screen, about the

      16   Gulf, and best available control technologies for

      17   protection of workers.  Can you add the word

      18   "protection"?

      19              The use of best available control

      20   technologies --

      21                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      22              MR. KNOWLES:  For protection of



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       1   workers.

       2              MS. SEMINARIO:  And that it's for

       3   protection, right, of cleanup workers in the Gulf.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.  Good

       5   catch.

       6              Anything else about the language Peg

       7   read?

       8              Joe Van Houten.

       9              DR. VAN HOUTEN:  Joe Van Houten.

      10              Just an offer for consideration.  Much

      11   of what you described up front, to me, sounded

      12   like a job safety analysis for each of the tasks.

      13              Would it be more efficient to say a job

      14   safety analysis has to be done for each of the

      15   tasks?  Or do we want to specify out all the

      16   steps?

      17              MR. DOOLEY:  I think it would be better

      18   to specify --

      19              MS. SEMINARIO:  Specify --

      20                (SIMULTANEOUS SPEAKING)

      21              UNKNOWN VOICE:  The more specification

      22   the better, just, in terms of what we really



                                                         358

       1   need --

       2              MS. SEMINARIO:  Right.  In terms of the

       3   major information that we're looking for.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  You know, while I

       5   think you're right in a substantive sense, we have

       6   to recognize that the audience for this may go

       7   beyond those who understand what's meant by "job

       8   safety analysis."

       9              UNKNOWN VOICE:  Okay.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Other thoughts on --

      11              Yes, Susan Randolph.

      12              MS. RANDOLPH:  Susan Randolph.

      13              But that is with the use of personal

      14   protection equipment, is that implied under the

      15   control measures?

      16              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yes.  In fact, I didn't

      17   read that, because I didn't -- yes.

      18              "Recommending control measures, and it

      19   should say -- I've got the word "including," and

      20   then I got pulled away here.

      21              "Including recommendations for personal

      22   protective equipment."



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       1              Fine.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Now, I believe that

       3   with regard to the preamble and to the first of

       4   the two recommendations, we had enough discussion

       5   about the language, so that when we vote on it, we

       6   know what we're voting on.

       7              For this one, I'd like you to read it

       8   once more.

       9              MS. SEMINARIO:  Okay.  I have a request

      10   at this point, and that is since the only real

      11   records, since we're not passing all these around

      12   to everyone, is going to be the transcript, I

      13   think for protection, you should read the entire

      14   thing through, so that --

      15              DR. MURRAY:  Can't we just hand the

      16   written --

      17              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I appreciate that.  I

      18   think we could do that, except we might do

      19   something with the handwriting.

      20              But more important than that, since

      21   David Michaels and Debbie Berkowitz just stepped

      22   back in, I would like them to hear what it is



                                                         360

       1   we're about to vote on.  Okay?  So that serves two

       2   purposes at once.

       3              It will take a little bit extra time.

       4   We have 45 minutes left until some of us

       5   immediately leave, but we're going to make it,

       6   okay?

       7              So let's go back.  What we've got,

       8   Dr. Michaels, is a set of -- a set of three

       9   recommendations prefaced by a preamble, all of

      10   which deal with issues having to do with

      11   protection of workers engaged in the Gulf oil

      12   spill recovery efforts.

      13              So what I'm going to do is, we're going

      14   to read each one of these, and then, poll the

      15   group, either a formal vote, or a less former show

      16   of hands, on each one of those separately.

      17              So Linda Rae Murray is going to read

      18   what will be a preamble.  This by itself is not a

      19   formal recommendation.

      20              DR. MURRAY:  I'm going to read this

      21   accurately, since you're going to go from the

      22   transcript.



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       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And we will read

       2   them -- we'll use the transcript itself for you to

       3   transcribe --

       4         (PROPOSED PREAMBLE TO RECOMMENDATIONS)

       5              DR. MURRAY:  Okay.  I'm still -- okay.

       6              "The Gulf oil spill of 2010 represents

       7   one of the largest threats to environmental

       8   quality in the health of workers and surrounding

       9   communities.

      10              "An appropriate response to this public

      11   health emergency will require the use of broad

      12   public health interventions and tools in order to

      13   protect the environment and the health of workers

      14   and communities.

      15              "We urge a coordinated and unified

      16   implementation of worker and community emergency

      17   temporary standards in order to protect the health

      18   of the population.

      19              "We urge your coordinated communication

      20   and immediate plan to inform workers in the

      21   general public about risks to human health and the

      22   environment that reflects the urgent and rapidly



                                                         362

       1   evolving situation in the Gulf.

       2              "We urge the active and continuing

       3   involvement in coordination of all relevant

       4   federal agencies:

       5              "For example, OSHA, NIOSH, NIEHS, EPA,

       6   FDA, Coast Guard, state and local public health

       7   departments, civic and community groups, industry

       8   and labor experts, to address this emergency.

       9              "Appropriate responses to this threat

      10   to health and environment require adequate

      11   funding, which must be borne by those companies

      12   responsible for this disaster.

      13              "NACOSH makes the following

      14   recommendations."

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Recommendations will

      16   follow, but I would like -- I think we've had

      17   sufficient discussion about that.

      18              I'd like to, by a show of hands, see if

      19   there is agreement with the statement that Linda

      20   just read.

      21              So for those who are in agreement,

      22   please raise your hand.



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       1              That is a unanimous vote of the full

       2   committee, minus one.  So quorum is satisfied and

       3   the vote is by more than a majority.

       4            (PREAMBLE ACCEPTED BY COMMITTEE)

       5              And we'll move onto the first of three

       6   recommendations.

       7              (PROPOSED RECOMMENDATION 1)

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  "Gulf oil spill

       9   recovery activities have been characterized by

      10   long work hours under conditions requiring extreme

      11   physical exertion and exposure to hot and humid

      12   environments.

      13              "NACOSH believes that long hours of

      14   work, whether measured by individual work shift or

      15   weekly, especially under conditions of physical

      16   exertion and heat exposure, are associated with

      17   work-related injuries and other adverse health

      18   effects.

      19              "While NACOSH does not recommend

      20   specific limits on work hours or schedules at this

      21   time, the committee believes that under the

      22   conditions described above, work schedules and



                                                         364

       1   hours in excess of traditional 8 hours a day and

       2   40 hours a week are likely to be excessive,

       3   especially if the schedules are required for

       4   extended periods.

       5              "NACOSH advises that OSHA and NIOSH

       6   provide immediate information and advice to

       7   employers and employees regarding work hours and

       8   work schedules considered excessive.

       9              "NACOSH further advises the agencies to

      10   expedite the establishment of more formal

      11   guidelines and rules governing work hours and work

      12   schedules, including but not limited to the

      13   possible promulgation of an emergency temporary

      14   standard for Gulf oil spill recovery workers.

      15              "This should also include consideration

      16   of existing rest and rehabilitation guidelines and

      17   practices for such work and working environments."

      18              So that's the language that we had

      19   discussed before, and I would ask for a show of

      20   hands for those who approve that recommendation.

      21              That's a unanimous vote of those

      22   present and satisfies the requirement for a



                                                         365

       1   majority of a quorum membership -- a quorum

       2   attendance.

       3              That's recommendation number 1.

       4

       5        (RECOMMENDATION 1 ACCEPTED BY COMMITTEE)

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Recommendation 2 will

       7   be read by Peg Seminario --

       8              MS. SEMINARIO:  Yeah, just one minute.

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  -- who is finishing

      10   up on recommendation number 3, so we'll just take

      11   a deep breath, and wait for a second.

      12              (PROPOSED RECOMMENDATION 2)

      13              MS. SEMINARIO:  Okay.

      14   Recommendation 2.

      15              "The Gulf Coast response is requiring

      16   and will continue to require significant OSHA and

      17   NIOSH resources to ensure the protection of

      18   workers involved in the response.

      19              "President Obama has stated clearly and

      20   emphatically that BP will be required to pay for

      21   the response and cleanup.

      22              "To this end, NACOSH recommends that as



                                                         366

       1   soon as possible, OSHA and NIOSH prepare a

       2   comprehensive assessment of the resources, both

       3   monetary and staff time, that will be required to

       4   fully and effectively protect workers involved in

       5   the response.

       6              "This assessment should include the

       7   cost of agency resources, required outside

       8   experts, and immediate and long-term evaluation of

       9   the health impacts of this spill.

      10              "In addition, the agency should

      11   identify other activities that are being foregone

      12   as a result of the diversion of resources.

      13              "The agency should seek reimbursement

      14   and advanced funding for these activities from BP

      15   and any other responsible parties as soon as

      16   possible.

      17              "If there is difficulty in securing

      18   immediate payment, the committee recommends the

      19   agency seek supplemental funding to cover the

      20   costs of response activities so the agencies will

      21   have sufficient resources to undertake previously

      22   planned activities and programs."



                                                         367

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you.

       2              And again, I think we've had full

       3   discussion of this language, so I would ask for a

       4   show of hands for those who approve this

       5   recommendation.

       6              And again, your vote is unanimous among

       7   those present, satisfying the need for a majority

       8   vote of a quorum of the membership.

       9        (RECOMMENDATION 2 ACCEPTED BY COMMITTEE)

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  The third

      11   recommendation is also going to be read by Peg, as

      12   soon as she finishes, which is right now.

      13              MS. SEMINARIO:  Well, I can read what I

      14   have, and then one last sentence here --

      15              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  But it will be the

      16   transcript version that will be the formal version

      17   we're voting on.

      18              (PROPOSED RECOMMENDATION 3)

      19              MS. SEMINARIO:  "NACOSH recommends that

      20   OSHA and NIOSH identify, evaluate and characterize

      21   the major operations and jobs that are being

      22   conducted in the Gulf Coast oil response.



                                                         368

       1              "For each of these operations and jobs,

       2   this evaluation should include:

       3              "A description of the operation or job;

       4              "The number of workers involved in this

       5   work;

       6              "The potential hazards and exposures

       7   presented by this work, including the results of

       8   any exposure monitoring, potential health effects

       9   or injuries associated with such exposures;

      10              "And any reports of such occurrences,

      11   recommended control measures including

      12   recommendations for personal protective equipment,

      13   recommended training including the length of

      14   training and topics that should be covered.

      15              "In addition, NACOSH recommends that

      16   OSHA and NIOSH, in conjunction with NIEHS, design,

      17   implement and evaluate pilot projects to identify

      18   hazards and field test the best available control

      19   technology and methods for the protection of oil

      20   cleanup workers in the Gulf.

      21              "Advanced worker education and training

      22   should also be developed and implemented to



                                                         369

       1   utilize the control technology.

       2              "These projects may be done in

       3   conjunction with NIOSH's HHEs, if the utilization

       4   of control technology is the primary focus of the

       5   project.

       6              "These characterizations and

       7   recommendations should be readily accessible to

       8   employers, workers and occupational safety and

       9   health professionals, and should be updated as new

      10   information becomes available."

      11              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Thank you.

      12              And once again, I will ask for a show

      13   of hands of those who are in favor of this

      14   recommendation.

      15              It's a unanimous approval by a full

      16   quorum of the committee present.

      17        (RECOMMENDATION 3 ACCEPTED BY COMMITTEE)

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  So, we have agreement

      19   on three recommendations and a preamble to it.

      20              Let me -- I'll come back in a second.

      21              Let me just indicate to Dr. Michaels

      22   that we have, in addition to developing these



                                                         370

       1   recommendations, we've decided to establish a work

       2   group, and we have a statement of work for that

       3   work group, which I'm not going to read right now.

       4              It's not a formal recommendation, it's

       5   just a decision by us as to how we're going to

       6   proceed.

       7              And we will count on adequate staff

       8   support from NIOSH and OSHA as we get that work

       9   group underway.

      10              We've agreed not to establish

      11   additional work groups right now, because we felt

      12   that we didn't have sufficient time or information

      13   to make adequate decisions about that, but we've

      14   identified for staff several areas where we would

      15   like either presentations from OSHA and/or NIOSH,

      16   or provisional background materials prior to the

      17   next meeting.

      18              I think Bill had his hand up, and then

      19   Emory.

      20              And I think we want to do some

      21   concluding remarks and discussion.

      22              MR. BORWEGEN:  I have either -- it's



                                                         371

       1   either an addition to the final recommendation,

       2   or, this is a new recommendation.

       3              I just want to read it and see if folks

       4   agree to this.  It's a little bit more concrete,

       5   but I think it would benefit the workers in the

       6   Gulf.

       7              "NACOSH recommends that OSHA and NIOSH

       8   work with NIEHS to develop a written list of

       9   questions that workers should have answered by

      10   their employer pursuant to work duties, potential

      11   hazards and control to protect their safety and

      12   health.  This list shall be prepared in a language

      13   understood by the effected workers."

      14              And I make a motion either to discuss

      15   it further or to vote on the adoption.

      16              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I'm -- well, I'm

      17   comfortable with the intent.  And I have no reason

      18   to think that after some adequate discussion, I

      19   would not agree.

      20              I am uneasy about moving forward with

      21   something like that with just a half an hour left

      22   in the meeting, and some other things to talk



                                                         372

       1   about.  But I'll entertain reactions from other

       2   committee members.

       3              DR. BUCHAN:  Maybe the work group can

       4   take that into consideration, and maybe move

       5   forward with that recommendation later.

       6              Is that satisfactory?

       7              MR. BORWEGEN:  Well, the next

       8   opportunity to vote won't be until September, so

       9   I'm a little hesitant to delay until then.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  That's true.

      11              Linda Rae?

      12              DR. MURRAY:  I have a question.  It's

      13   just a question.  It seems to me that -- even

      14   though it's very specific, but it seems to me that

      15   what you're talking about could easily be

      16   encompassed in -- I guess it was the third

      17   recommendation that we just passed.

      18              So I guess my question is, do you feel

      19   a need to be that specific?

      20              In which case, maybe we could insert

      21   some of that specificity in that third

      22   recommendation, which did talk about worker



                                                         373

       1   education.

       2              So, I mean, it's just a question to

       3   you, in terms of ...

       4              MR. BORWEGEN:  I guess I'm responding

       5   to Dr. Michael's earlier saying that, well, when

       6   we see a problem, we deal with it, understanding

       7   that OSHA has 30 inspectors in the Gulf.  I think

       8   that's what the number was.

       9              And it would be nice to have workers

      10   have a take-away piece of paper that would

      11   actually provide them with a checklist of the

      12   kinds of things that they should be concerned

      13   about, and it would be written in a language that

      14   they would understand.

      15              And I know it sounds, maybe, too

      16   specific, but I could -- you know, this is a

      17   very -- this would be a very valuable piece of

      18   paper for a worker that's doing this work.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Peg Seminario?

      20              MS. SEMINARIO:  Could you read it

      21   again?  Because I wasn't -- I was still typing

      22   here, and so I wasn't quite clear of what



                                                         374

       1   specifically was being recommended.

       2              MR. BORWEGEN:  Okay.

       3              "NACOSH recommends that OSHA and NIOSH

       4   work with NIHS to develop a written list of

       5   questions that workers should have answered by

       6   their employer pursuant to work duties, potential

       7   hazards and control to protect their safety and

       8   health.  This list shall be prepared in a language

       9   understood by the effected workers."

      10              MS. SEMINARIO:  See, I don't

      11   understand -- I don't think it's clear what you

      12   just read there that that didn't -- doesn't say,

      13   to me, a checklist of information that you take

      14   away.

      15              And so I think it needs more

      16   development to be clear as to what the

      17   recommendation is, and some more discussion about

      18   it.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I agree with you,

      20   Peg.

      21              And that's why I said that, while I'm

      22   generally sympathetic to what you intend here, I



                                                         375

       1   don't think we have time left to give it adequate

       2   consideration.

       3              And so --

       4              MR. BORWEGEN:  Okay.  Well, I'll

       5   withdraw the motion, then.

       6              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you, Bill.  I

       7   appreciate that.

       8              Emory Knowles?

       9              MR. KNOWLES:  Emory Knowles.

      10              I would just like to volunteer to be on

      11   the work group.

      12              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Oh, okay.  We will

      13   add Emory Knowles to the list of those on the work

      14   group.

      15              DR. BUCHAN:  You got your chairman

      16   right there.

      17                       (LAUGHTER)

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Thank you for

      19   reminding me that we have a work group, but we

      20   have not designated a chairperson.

      21              We have, I think, now, five members who

      22   have agreed to be on it, and I'm wondering if any



                                                         376

       1   of those who agreed to be on it -- six -- if any

       2   of them are interested in becoming chair.

       3              ASSISTANT CHIEF POUGET:  I'll do it.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Excellent.  Denise

       5   Pouget is chair for the subgroup.

       6              You get many points for that, and

       7   several of us owe you for that.

       8                       (LAUGHTER)

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And we will talk with

      10   staff about how to get the work group going.

      11   Thank you.

      12              We have a half an hour left.  And the

      13   agenda gives time for some final comments or

      14   discussion with the assistant secretary, who is

      15   here.

      16              DR. MICHAELS:  Thank you.  I think I

      17   arrived at a good moment.  It was a great pleasure

      18   to see that you had a productive afternoon, and

      19   you've made some very useful recommendations that

      20   we can address.  And I'm very pleased that you'll

      21   have a work group who will continue to work on

      22   these issues.



                                                         377

       1              Before going any further, I just want

       2   to take a moment and introduce Debbie Berkowitz.

       3   Those of you who don't know her, she's the chief

       4   of staff of OSHA, and is involved in virtually

       5   every one of our activities.  I think you should

       6   all meet, if you haven't yet.

       7              I have nothing specific to add, other

       8   than to say, I think this is a -- I would like to

       9   see this as the beginning of a long and close

      10   relationship with a very active National Advisory

      11   Committee.

      12              I think there's been a period where the

      13   advisory committee hasn't been called on by OSHA

      14   and NIOSH to provide advice, and we certainly

      15   intend to change that.  And I'm very pleased that

      16   you'll be working in between meetings.

      17              And I think we have a meeting,

      18   hopefully, planned in the relatively near future.

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  September 14th and

      20   15th, for those who have not heard, is at least

      21   the tentative date that we have set aside.

      22              DR. MICHAELS:  Which is terrific.



                                                         378

       1   That's, you know, that's three months from now,

       2   and I think that pace is a pace we'd like to

       3   see -- as I said earlier, we have a very ambitious

       4   agenda, there's much to do and there's no time to

       5   waste.

       6              So I know you've taken time out of all

       7   your very busy schedules to do this work, and I'm

       8   very grateful you've done that.

       9              So, I just want to, again, thank you.

      10              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Let me indicate, on

      11   behalf of the committee, although I'm not going to

      12   stop other people from adding their own comments,

      13   that we really appreciate your interest in asking

      14   this committee for advice, and signaling to us

      15   your seriousness in taking under consideration

      16   what we propose.

      17              I also appreciate that you put on the

      18   table not just your most immediate, pressing

      19   concern with the Gulf, but you and Dr. Howard

      20   asked us to consider some other very important

      21   questions.

      22              And I can assure you that, although we



                                                         379

       1   spent a lot of time today talking about the Gulf

       2   oil spill activities, we're interested in learning

       3   more about, and helping you address some of the

       4   other issues that you gave to us.

       5              Some of those we -- many of them we

       6   found very intriguing and interesting, and it took

       7   a lot of discipline on our part not to go off on

       8   tangents with a lot of those, but to stick to what

       9   we had to accomplish today.

      10              Anybody else?

      11              Linda Rae Murray.

      12              DR. MURRAY:  I just have one

      13   housekeeping issue.

      14              Again, we haven't talked about how

      15   often we're going to meet.  But for me, at least,

      16   if we could have some proposed dates out, longer

      17   than three months, which is just, you know, edge

      18   of my clinical responsibilities, I could usually

      19   change something.  So it would help me if, after

      20   this meeting, staff would coordinate, or make a

      21   proposed schedule or something.

      22              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yeah, thank you.  We



                                                         380

       1   talked about that earlier and we almost forgot it.

       2              And I would like to ask Deborah if you

       3   could, in the interim, use computer technology to

       4   come up with some possible dates for a series of

       5   meetings, depending on the frequency that OSHA

       6   thinks is going to be useful, and to poll the

       7   members to start looking at calendars.

       8              MS. CRAWFORD:  Yes, I will do that.

       9              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yes, Roy Buchan.

      10              DR. BUCHAN:  Dr. Michaels, I want you

      11   to know that Bill mentioned earlier that we are at

      12   a historical point regarding this committee, and

      13   being able to be functional and supportive of OSHA

      14   and NIOSH.

      15              And he hit the nail on the head because

      16   of your openness, and I wanted to compliment him

      17   on saying that earlier.

      18              The other thing I wanted to mention,

      19   which is important to me, we all become academic

      20   parents.Cindy Coe has been mentioned several times

      21   today, and I want everyone to know she was my

      22   student.



                                                         381

       1                       (LAUGHTER)

       2              DR. MICHAELS:  I will tell her later on

       3   today and tomorrow that we spoke, and that you

       4   were here, because I speak with her several times

       5   a day.

       6              DR. BUCHAN:  Okay.

       7              DR. MICHAELS:  And can I just add to

       8   that, Dr. Howard could not come back, so I think

       9   the other thing to note is NIOSH and OSHA have

      10   never had a close relationship.  We're certainly

      11   not, in any of our recent memory.  We don't go

      12   back to the very beginning of NIOSH and OSHA.

      13              But we're very pleased that this

      14   advisory committee advises both agencies, and if

      15   there are ways that you see, not just for each

      16   individual agency to work, but for us to work

      17   together as some of your resolutions raised, we

      18   are pleased to see that.

      19              You know, when we read the OSHA Act, we

      20   see that NIOSH and OSHA were intended to work

      21   closely together, and we plan to follow those

      22   directions.



                                                         382

       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Yeah, Peter Dooley.

       2              MR. DOOLEY:  Peter Dooley, LaborSafe.

       3              Just a question, if we're thinking

       4   about meeting every three months, is that some

       5   sense -- I guess we haven't really discussed that,

       6   or --

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  The committee is

       8   required to meet at least twice a year.

       9              MR. DOOLEY:  At least twice a year,

      10   right.  I guess, one question is, are there any

      11   alternative ways of meeting, other than in person,

      12   if budgetary restraints are an issue?

      13              And I raise the question -- I'll just

      14   say, the most effective committees that I'm

      15   involved in, you know, basically meet at "once a

      16   month" kind of thing, through electronic --

      17   through conference calls.  And now

      18   videoconferencing is becoming a much bigger --

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Good question.

      20              MR. DOOLEY:  I'm just throwing out that

      21   question, whether there's some way to continue

      22   with the discussion so that we don't get lost from



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       1   one meeting to another.

       2              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Good question.

       3              It's governed by FACA and all that, so

       4   I'll let Sarah Shortall answer that.

       5              MS. SHORTALL:  FACA does specifically

       6   allow meetings, either in whole or in part, can be

       7   done by other methods such as teleconference or

       8   webinars.  But that does not eliminate the

       9   requirements for that to be before the public, and

      10   transcript, et cetera.

      11              The problem is, on most

      12   teleconferences, there's a limited number of lines

      13   that you can get, so you're not going to be able

      14   to get everybody who's interested to be able to

      15   call in.

      16              So it means the agency has to make some

      17   space available, so people would be able to listen

      18   and participate that way.  Otherwise, the meeting

      19   is not open to the public, and that would violate,

      20   clearly, FACA.

      21              So there are specific considerations.

      22              The other thing I should also mention



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       1   is, I don't know if you've been on some telephone

       2   conversations, but sometimes phones cut out, and

       3   it does make it difficult for the transcriptionist

       4   to get a full and accurate -- thing.

       5              So yes, it's allowable, and there are

       6   issues that are involved, the most important one

       7   being you have to make it available to the public.

       8              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  So it's

       9   possible, but it's not easy.

      10              A related question, I think the answer

      11   to this is yes, but I want to check.

      12              Is it permissible for us to hold our

      13   meetings in other locations, other parts of the

      14   country?

      15              DR. MICHAELS:  Sarah can answer that

      16   question.

      17              MS. SHORTALL:  Well, it's whatever OSHA

      18   would be willing to do.  They are the ones that

      19   create your budget.  I don't -- I mean, the new

      20   charter has to come out in October, and if the

      21   agency is interested, they will have to budget

      22   that as part of their charter.



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       1              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  You're right.  I was

       2   only asking if it was legal permissible.

       3              MS. SHORTALL:  It is.

       4              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  And it is.

       5              Bill Borwegen.

       6              MR. BORWEGEN:  And what is the

       7   frequency -- it seems like ACCOSH is very active.

       8   What is their frequency of meeting?  Do they only

       9   meet once every six months or --

      10              MS. SHORTALL:  No.  Well, it depends.

      11   I mean, sometimes it does slip.  They usually meet

      12   three to four times per year.  But there have been

      13   other years where they've met once, and not at

      14   all.

      15              MR. BORWEGEN:  So I'm a little

      16   confused.  Does the committee decide how

      17   frequently they meet, or does OSHA decide how

      18   frequently we meet?

      19              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  It will be a

      20   combination.  It will be a decision made in

      21   conversation with the department.

      22              And I reiterate what I said earlier:



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       1   There's a balance between what the committee

       2   members would like, and what OSHA is capable of

       3   supporting, and what OSHA would like.

       4              MS. SHORTALL:  Only the designated

       5   federal official can call a meeting.  So, unless

       6   OSHA agrees, there is no meeting.

       7              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  I will ask staff -- I

       8   will ask Deborah to check calendars for what would

       9   be quarterly meetings, although we may not have

      10   such.  But let's not lose the opportunity by not

      11   checking our calendars.

      12              Susan Randolph.

      13              MS. RANDOLPH:  Susan Randolph.  I know

      14   in the past, when the committee has tried to meet,

      15   sometimes it depends on committee member

      16   appointments, and when those expire, and being

      17   able to have sufficient people for a quorum.

      18              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  As long as we have a

      19   quorum, we can meet.  And at some times in the

      20   past, membership has determined that.

      21   Appointments have -- let me do this.

      22              Since we only have a little bit less



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       1   than 20 minutes left, I think that Sarah had one

       2   other administrative detail to take care of, and I

       3   want to make sure that we do that before we

       4   adjourn.

       5              MS. SHORTALL:  It's real easy, but

       6   OSHA -- based on what ACCOSH does, they allow

       7   people to remain on the committee until a person

       8   is appointed in their place, so they never have to

       9   worry about the quorum.  And I believe that is

      10   going to be an item that NACOSH plans to add to

      11   their charter.  So that would help solve the

      12   problem.

      13              I have a number of meeting exhibits

      14   that I would like to add into the record at this

      15   time.

      16       (EXHIBITS ATTACHED TO RECORD AS FOLLOWS:)

      17              MS. SHORTALL:  Meeting Exhibit 1, the

      18   agenda for the June 8, 2010 NACOSH meeting.

      19              This is Exhibit 2, the NACOSH

      20   membership roster as of June 8th, 2010.

      21              As Exhibit 3, the Federal Advisory

      22   Committee Act.



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       1              As Exhibit 4, the NACOSH charter filed

       2   on October 8th, 2008.

       3              As Exhibit 5, 29 CFR1912(a) OSHA

       4   regulations governing NACOSH.

       5              As Exhibit 6, DOL ethics rules for

       6   non-federal employees.

       7              As Exhibit 7, reference documents on

       8   OSHA's response to oil spill and cleanup

       9   operations.

      10              And as Exhibit 8, protection of workers

      11   involved in oil spill recovery efforts in the Gulf

      12   work group charge.

      13              DR. SILVERSTEIN:  Okay.  Thank you.  I

      14   would just indicate -- and I have one thing to say

      15   in conclusion.

      16              But Dr. Michaels, any final comments?

      17              I would just indicate in conclusion, or

      18   offer my thanks to the committee for what I think

      19   was an excellent and productive meeting.  It is a,

      20   really, very promising start for this committee's

      21   activity.

      22              And I use the word "start" advisedly.



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       1   I know that ACCOSH has been in existence for many

       2   years.  This is the start of ACCOSH under the new

       3   administration, and I think we've got a good

       4   start.  And I look forward to seeing many of you,

       5   if not all of you again.

       6              And I almost concluded without offering

       7   thanks to a couple of the OSHA staff, who have

       8   been critical to organizing this meeting

       9   successfully.

      10              In addition to Deborah Crawford and

      11   Sarah Shortall, who are assigned to this, we need

      12   to extend our thanks to Veneta Chatmon and Frances

      13   Duran and others.

      14              Who else is in the room right now?

      15              There may be other names -- Kimberly

      16   Tucker.

      17              Okay.  This meeting of NACOSH is

      18   adjourned.

      19             (MEETING ADJOURNED ON TUESDAY,

      20              JUNE 8, 2010, AT 4:14 P.M.)

      21                         * * *

      22



