0001
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
U.
S.
Environmental
Protection
Agency
Office
of
Small
and
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization
10
(
OSDBU)
11
EPA
Region
Tribal
X
Meeting
12
13
Alaska
Forum
on
the
Environment
Anchorage
Egan
Convention
Center
14
Anchorage,
Alaska
15
Tuesday,
February
10,
2004
16
3:
30
P.
M.­
4:
45
P.
M.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0002
1
AGENDA
2
2:
30
­
3:
30
P.
M.
Registration
3
3:
30
­
3:
40
P.
M.
Introduction
of
David
Sutton,
4
Deputy
Director,
OSDBU
5
3:
40
­
4:
15
P.
M.
David
Sutton,
Deputy
Director
Summary
of
DBE
Proposed
Rule,
6
Certifications
and
Recipient
Requirements
7
4:
15
­
4:
35
P.
M.
Public
Questions
and
Comments
8
4:
35
­
4:
45
P.
M.
Summary
and
Conclusion
9
10
11
SPEAKERS
12
MR.
DAVID
SUTTON,
DEPUTY
DIRECTOR
13
Office
of
Small
and
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization
1200
Pennsylvania
Avenue,
N.
W.
(
1230A)
14
Washington,
D.
C.
20460
e­
mail:
sutton.
david@
epa.
gov
15
phone:
(
202)
564­
4100
16
MS.
MARIE
MCPEAK,
REGION
X
DIRECTOR
17
U.
S.
Environmental
Protection
Agency
1200
Sixth
Avenue
18
Seattle,
WA
98101
e­
mail:
mcpeak.
marie@
epa.
gov
19
phone:
(
206)
553­
2894
20
21
22
23
24
25
0003
1
OPENING
2
MS.
MCPEAK:
Good
afternoon.
I'm
Marie
McPeak
and
3
I
am
the
MBE/
WBE
coordinator
for
Region
X
in
Seattle,
and
4
I
am
located
in
the
Seattle
office.
My
job
is
connected
5
with
the
Office
of
Small
and
Disadvantaged
Business
6
Utilization.
And
today
we're
here
to
talk
about
the
7
proposed
new
Disadvantaged
Business
Enterprise
Rule.
8
Up
until
this
time,
we've
had
MBE/
WBE
9
requirements
in
every
grant
agreement
that
has
gone
out.
10
So
in
the
terms
and
conditions
of
your
grant,
it
tells
11
what
the
requirements
are.
We're
proposing
some
changes
12
to
that
existing
MBE/
WBE
Rule.
We're
changing
the
name
13
of
it
to
the
Disadvantaged
Business
Enterprise
Rule,
and
14
it
will
become
an
EPA
regulation.
And
a
lot
of
you
are
15
familiar
with
our
regulations.
Right
now
the
16
requirements
are
in
Part
31,
which
most
of
you
are
17
covered
under,
Part
31
or
35,
subpart
B.
And
we
also
18
have
colleges
and
universities
and
non­
profits
who
are
19
covered
under
Part
30.
But
we
will
have
our
own
20
regulation,
which
will
be
Part
33.
21
And
at
this
time
I'd
like
to
introduce
the
22
Deputy
Director
of
the
Office
of
Small
and
Disadvantaged
23
Business
Utilization,
David
Sutton,
and
he's
traveled
24
from
Washington,
D.
C.
to
here
in
order
to
conduct
this
25
rule
hearing.
Dave?
0004
1
MR.
SUTTON:
Thanks,
Marie.
Good
afternoon.
2
Good
afternoon.
3
ATTENDEES:
Good
afternoon.
4
MR.
SUTTON:
How
is
everybody?
Good.
Before
5
I
get
into
a
summary
of
what
this
new
rule
is
all
about,
6
I
want
to
tell
you
what's
in
the
packet
that's
on
the
7
back
table.
Hopefully
everyone
has
picked
up
a
packet.
8
This
is
basically
what
we
call
our
Doing
Business
With
9
EPA
Packet,
and
there
are
a
number
of
documents
that
will
10
be
valuable.
I
do
know
we
have
some
contractors
in
the
11
audience.
If
any
of
you
are
interested
in
doing
business
12
directly
with
the
EPA,
not
through
a
grant
but
doing
13
business
with
the
federal
government,
there
are
some
very
14
good
materials
in
this
packet
that
will
help
you
out
in
15
your
quest.
Just
briefly
I
want
to
kind
of
go
over
16
what's
in
here.
17
One
document
is
a
Request
for
Publications.
18
You
can
take
a
look
at
that.
It's
a
publication
­­
a
19
sheet
that
shows
basically
all
the
publications
that
are
20
in
this
packet.
But
you
can
certainly
fill
this
out,
if
21
you
need
additional
information,
send
it
in
to
us,
and
22
we'll
get
you
any
additional
documents
you
need.
23
One
of
the
better
publications
in
the
packet
24
is
this
black
book
called
Doing
Business
With
EPA.
And
25
whether
you're
interested
in
prime
contracting
0005
1
opportunities,
subcontracting
opportunities
with
our
2
major
prime
contracts,
or
procurement
opportunities
3
through
our
grant
program,
all
of
those
processes
are
4
covered
in
this
document.
5
EPA
also
has
a
Mentor­
Protege
Program.
I
was
6
speaking
with
a
gentleman
outside
today
who
is
thinking
7
of
maybe
trying
to
enter
such
a
program
with
one
of
the
8
large
businesses,
Tetra
Tech,
which
does
business
with
9
the
EPA.
This
particular
document
tells
you
how
to
go
10
about
establishing
Mentor­
Protege
Programs.
This
11
document
is
a
Forecast
of
Contract
Opportunities.
It's
12
available
online
at
www.
epa.
gov/
oam.
Web
site
is
right
13
here.
The
good
thing
about
this
document
is
that
it
14
forecasts
everything
the
EPA
plans
to
buy
over
the
next
15
two
years.
So
if
you're
in
business
for
yourself
and
you
16
want
to
know
What
is
EPA
going
to
be
buying?
What
types
17
of
procurement
should
I
go
after?
you
want
to
look
at
the
18
Forecast
of
Contract
Opportunities.
Now,
with
this
19
particular
copy,
we
just
happen
to
print
it
one
day
off
20
the
internet,
but
it
changes
every
day.
So
if
you're
21
interested,
what
you'll
need
to
do
is
go
to
the
web
site
22
and
actually
look
at
the
document.
23
I
do
know
that
some
of
you
are
aware
of
our
24
Superfund
Program.
Superfund
is
the
cleanup
of
abandoned
25
hazardous
waste
sites.
There
are
a
number
of
contracts
0006
1
in
that
area.
In
fact,
the
Superfund
Program
is
the
2
EPA's
largest
contracting
program.
So
if
you're
a
3
contractor
trying
to
do
business
with
the
EPA,
the
4
Superfund
area
is
one
you'll
really
want
to
focus
on.
5
This
sheet
summarizes
the
Superfund
contracts.
And,
6
again,
any
contracts
that
we
had
planned
to
award
would
7
be
in
the
Forecast
of
Contract
Opportunities.
8
Now,
the
most
important
document
for
today's
9
meeting
is
the
Summary
of
the
Proposed
Rule.
I'll
10
basically
be
talking
from
this
during
my
presentation.
11
But
you'll
want
to
refer
to
this.
We
do
have
copies
of
12
the
entire
rule
with
the
entire
Federal
Register
notice
13
on
the
back
table.
But
it's
a
very
long
document,
so
you
14
might
want
to
refer
to
the
summary.
I
think
the
summary
15
does
a
very
good
job
summarizing
the
major
elements.
16
Another
document
here
is
basically
the
mission
17
of
our
office,
the
mission
of
the
Office
of
Small
and
18
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization.
And
our
mission
is
19
to
help
small
businesses
get
their
fair
share
of
EPA
20
procurement
dollars,
whether
that
be
through
direct
21
contract
with
the
government
or
through
contracting
with
22
any
of
our
grant
recipients.
23
I
heard
some
discussion
today
about
the
8(
a)
24
Program.
We
do
have
a
fact
sheet
in
here
on
the
8(
a)
25
Program.
So
those
of
you
who
might
be
interested
in
0007
1
pursuing
that
program,
there's
a
fact
sheet
included
to
2
help
you
in
that
area.
3
In
addition
to
that,
we
just
have
some
other
4
documents
regarding
resources
for
identifying
small
5
minority,
and
women­
owned
businesses.
If
you
are
6
representing
a
state
agency,
you
might
find
this
document
7
useful,
if
you're
trying
to
identify
women­
owned
and
8
disadvantaged
businesses
to
help
you
implement
9
environmental
programs.
10
Also
in
the
office
we
keep
a
small
business
11
profile
system.
There
is
a
fact
sheet
on
this
system
in
12
your
packet.
Basically,
if
you
fill
out
the
back
of
this
13
form,
it
basically
gives
us
a
summary
of
the
type
of
14
business
you
have
and
the
work
that
you
do.
We
keep
a
15
database
in
our
office
in
EPA
in
Washington
that
let's
us
16
know
which
businesses
are
interested
in
doing
EPA
work.
17
So
if
you're
interested
in
doing
EPA
work,
we
ask
you
18
just
fill
this
out.
It's
not
extensive.
You
just
give
19
the
name
of
your
firm,
you
summarize
the
kind
of
work
20
you're
doing,
you
check
whether
you're
8(
a)
HUBzone,
21
disadvantaged,
woman,
or
what
have
you,
and
if
EPA
22
offices
contact
us
looking
for
small
businesses
in
your
23
area
of
work,
we
can
then
refer
your
firm
to
them.
24
And
the
very
last
document
in
here
is
a
list
25
of
our
EPA
MBE/
WBE
coordinators.
These
are
the
people
in
0008
1
our
ten
EPA
regions
who
work
with
grant
recipients
in
2
implementing
this
program
that
we're
going
to
talk
about
3
today,
this
program
that
affords
a
fair
share
of
any
4
procurement
dollars
that
result
from
our
grants
to
5
minority­
owned
businesses
and
women­
owned
businesses.
6
And
I
see
Marie
looking
at
it.
I
hope
it's
an
7
updated
sheet.
Marie,
are
you
on
it?
8
MS.
MCPEAK:
I
am
on
it.
9
MR.
SUTTON:
You
are
on
it.
That
is
great,
10
because
Marie
McPeak
out
of
Seattle
is
the
MBE/
WBE
11
coordinator
for
Region
X.
12
So
what
I've
done
in
about
three
or
four
13
minutes
is
given
you
our
overall
small
business
spiel
14
from
EPA
headquarters.
15
The
program
we're
talking
about
today
is
our
16
grant
program.
It's
really
the
EPA's
biggest
program
in
17
that
we
do
about
4
billion
a
year
in
grants
but
only
18
1.2
billion
in
contracts.
So
we
often
have
contractors
19
coming
to
us
saying,
"
Well,
you
know,
I
want
to
go
after
20
EPA
work.
What
do
you
do
in
contracts?"
And
we
let
them
21
know,
"
Well,
we
do
about
1.2
billion
in
contracts,
but
22
there's
this
other
program
where
we
have
a
fair
share
23
goal
for
disadvantaged
businesses
that's
four
times
as
24
much
as
our
contracting
program,
and
that's
the
program
25
you
should
be
going
after."
So
with
that,
I'm
going
to
0009
1
tell
you
a
little
bit
about
our
disadvantaged
business
2
program
related
to
assistance
agreements,
and
then
I'm
3
going
to
tell
you
about
our
proposed
rule
and
why
we're
4
proposing
this
rule.
5
After
I
speak
to
you,
you
will
have
a
chance
6
to
give
us
any
comments.
Please
note
that
these
7
proceedings
are
being
taken
by
a
court
reporter
because
8
we
need
to
make
sure
we
can
refer
back
to
your
comments
9
as
we
finalize
the
rule.
Also,
as
Marie
mentioned,
when
10
this
is
over
and
you
go
back
to
your
homes,
please
make
11
sure
you
give
us
any
written
comments.
You
might
hear
12
some
things
today
that
don't
really
sit
well
with
you
and
13
you
think
we
should
do
a
little
differently.
That's
why
14
we're
here.
We
need
to
get
your
input.
So
not
only
do
I
15
encourage
you,
after
I
go
through
my
charts
­­
even
if
16
you
want
to
interrupt
me
with
a
question,
that's
fine.
17
We
not
only
want
to
capture
your
comments
here
today,
but
18
we
also
want
you
to
go
back
and
think
about
what
you've
19
heard,
review
the
summary,
then
give
us
any
additional
20
written
comments.
21
When
you
do
speak,
I'm
going
to
ask
that
you
22
come
up
because
we
don't
have
a
microphone
and
the
court
23
reporter
really
needs
to
make
sure
she
gets
your
question
24
accurately
and
your
comments
accurately.
In
addition,
25
before
you
speak,
please
give
her
your
name,
the
name
of
0010
1
your
organization,
and
where
you're
from.
Okay?
All
2
right.
3
With
that,
I'll
start,
and
I'm
just
going
to
4
try
to
walk
around
a
little
bit.
This
is
a
small
room.
5
And
I
told
Marie
I
was
going
to
move
the
transparencies,
6
but
I
think
I
can
do
it.
Okay.
How
many
of
you
are
7
representing
the
State
of
Alaska?
I
want
to
get
a
feel
8
for
the
audience.
Any
other
grant
recipients
­­
EPA
9
grant
recipients
in
here?
10
ATTENDEE:
GAP.
11
MR.
SUTTON:
GAP
grants.
12
COURT
REPORTER:
Who?
I'm
sorry?
What
did
13
she
say?
14
ATTENDEE:
GAP.
15
COURT
REPORTER:
Okay.
16
MR.
SUTTON:
GAP
stands
for
­­
17
MS.
MCPEAK:
It's
­­
well,
it's
IGAP,
and
it's
18
Indian
Environmental
General
Assistance
Program.
19
COURT
REPORTER:
Okay.
20
MS.
MCPEAK:
And
most
of
the
people
that
are
21
in
here
are
IGAP
recipients.
22
COURT
REPORTER:
Thank
you.
23
MR.
SUTTON:
And
I
do
believe
we
also
have
24
some
contractors
in
here.
Okay.
May
I
see
a
show
of
25
hands
for
the
contractors?
One,
two,
three,
four
­­
0011
1
Okay.
Very
good.
2
All
right.
So
your
first
question
is
what
is
3
EPA's
DBE
procurement
program.
Basically,
it's
a
goaling
4
program
for
the
participation
of
disadvantaged
businesses
5
in
procurements
that
are
funded
through
EPA
assistance
6
agreements.
Okay.
In
plain
English,
what
does
that
7
really
mean?
What
it
means
is
that
EPA
gives
a
grant
to
8
a
state,
an
Alaska
native
village,
or
any
non­
profit
9
entity,
for
that
matter,
and
then
the
grant
recipient
10
awards
contracts
with
those
grant
dollars.
Then
any
11
procurements
that
come
from
those
grants,
a
certain
12
portion
of
those
procurements
should
go
to
minority­
owned
13
businesses
and
disadvantaged
businesses.
Right
now
it's
14
called
an
MBE/
WBE
program,
Minority
Business
15
Enterprises/
Women's
Business
Enterprises,
but
one
of
the
16
key
changes
of
this
rule
is
that
we're
going
to
change
it
17
from
MBE/
WBE
to
just
DBE,
Disadvantaged
Businesses,
and
18
there
are
some
reasons
for
that
that
I'll
go
into.
19
One
of
the
primary
reasons
is
that
a
business
20
owner
does
not
have
to
be
a
minority
or
a
woman
in
order
21
to
be
disadvantaged
because
someone
else
may
have
some
22
other
unique
situations
that
may
make
them
disadvantaged
23
as
well.
The
reason
we
have
this
particular
program
is
24
that
­­
I
mentioned
earlier
that
dollars
that
go
out
in
25
grants
are
four
times
as
much
as
what
goes
through
0012
1
contracts.
That's
the
main
reason
we
have
this
goaling
2
program.
Because
Congress
saw
fit
back
in
the
early
3
'
90s,
when
we
reviewed
the
fact
that
we
were
doing
so
4
much
more
through
grants
than
they
were
doing
from
5
contracts,
Congress
came
in
and
said,
Well,
if
you
don't
6
guarantee
or
you
don't
make
efforts"
­­
making
efforts
is
7
a
better
way
of
putting
this
­­
"
if
you
don't
make
8
efforts
for
disadvantaged
businesses
to
get
some
of
these
9
procurement
dollars
that
are
coming
from
these
grants,
10
they
are
missing
a
whole
lot
of
money."
Because,
again,
11
we're
talking
1.2
billion
versus
4
billion.
So
this
is
12
really
a
large
program.
EPA
does
a
whole
lot
more
13
through
grants
and
assistance
agreements
than
we
do
14
through
contracts.
That
is
the
reason
we
have
this
15
program.
16
Okay.
Statutory
authorities:
I
mentioned
17
that
back
in
the
early
'
90s
Congress
said,
"
All
right,
18
EPA,
you've
got
to
do
something
different.
You've
got
19
all
this
money
going
out
through
grants,
so
we
have
to
20
give
you
some
authority
to
implement
this
program;"
and
21
basically
we
have
two.
The
first,
in
1990,
Public
Law
22
101­
549
is
­­
basically
relates
to
the
Clean
Air
Act
23
Amendments
of
1990.
And
under
that
particular
act,
and
24
this
is
a
national
goal,
to
the
extent
practicable,
not
25
less
than
10
percent
of
any
of
these
procurement
dollars
0013
1
that
come
from
these
grants
should
be
made
available
to
2
disadvantaged
business
enterprises,
not
less
than
3
10
percent.
That
is
a
national
goal,
for
any
grants
4
related
to
the
Clean
Air
Act
Amendments
of
1990.
5
Our
second
national
goal
is
8
percent.
This
6
is
Public
Law
102­
389
in
October
of
1992.
That
second
7
public
law
applies
to
everything
else.
The
Clean
Air
8
Act,
the
national
goal
for
DBE
participation
is
9
10
percent.
The
non­
Clean
Air
Act,
the
national
goal
is
10
8
percent.
Okay?
Two
national
goals,
8
and
10.
11
Okay.
So
the
next
question
you
might
have,
12
"
Okay,
we've
got
the
statutes.
We
know
what
the
program
13
is.
Why
are
you
doing
a
rulemaking?"
Well,
the
reason
14
we're
doing
a
rule­
making
is
to
be
within
the
law.
The
15
Supreme
Court
decision
in
Adarand
versus
Pena,
which
was
16
rendered
by
the
Court
in
1995,
primarily
as
a
result
of
a
17
lawsuit
with
the
Department
of
Transportation,
because
18
the
Department
of
Transportation
has
a
program
similar
to
19
ours
­­
and
to
meet
that
strict
scrutiny,
we
have
to
this
20
rule.
And
in
order
to
do
that,
we
can
no
longer
just
21
arbitrarily
put
the
8
percent
and
the
10
percent
in
our
22
grants,
which
is
what
we
did
at
one
time.
We
had
the
two
23
goals
of
10
percent
Clean
Air
Act
and
8
percent
for
24
everything
else.
We
just
put
the
8
and
10
in
every
25
grant.
We
gave
a
grant
to
anybody
who
said,
okay,
this
0014
1
Clean
Air
Act,
your
goal,
minority
participation,
women's
2
business
participation
is
10
percent,
non­
Clean
Air
Act
3
is
8
percent.
Well,
Adarand
said
that
that
was
too
4
global.
Those
goals
had
to
have
a
basis.
You
just
5
couldn't
­­
even
those
were
our
national
goals,
you
6
couldn't
just
arbitrarily
put
those
goals
in
every
grant
7
because
they
may
not
be
appropriate.
8
So
based
on
that
Supreme
Court
discussion,
9
what
we
have
to
do
now
is
we
have
to
actually
determine
10
what
the
goals
should
be
based
on
the
availability
of
11
disadvantaged
businesses
within
their
requisite
12
geographical
area.
Okay?
So
what
does
that
mean
in
13
plain
English?
I'll
talk
about
the
states.
I
use
the
14
states
as
an
example.
If
you
look
at
the
goals
that
15
we've
negotiated
in
each
of
our
50
states,
they
range
16
from
a
goal
of
1
percent
in
Vermont
to
a
high
of
17
36
percent
in
California.
Okay?
And
that
makes
sense.
18
You
have
more
below
in
areas
in
California
than
you
have
19
in
Vermont.
Well,
before
Adarand,
we
were
putting
8
20
percent
and
10
percent,
which
­­
you
know,
it
really
21
didn't
fit.
I
mean,
in
a
place
like
Vermont,
the
goals
22
were
too
high,
and
in
a
place
like
California,
they
were
23
too
low.
So
to
meet
that
strict
scrutiny,
we
have
to
24
implement
this
rule.
Right
now
we
are
operating
the
25
program
with
a
series
of
guidance
documents,
but
we
0015
1
really
don't
have
a
regulation
that
states
that
this
is
2
how
our
program
operates,
ergo
that's
why
we
have
the
3
rule­
making
at
this
time.
4
Okay.
I'm
not
going
to
talk
about
the
key
5
elements
of
the
proposed
rule.
I
mentioned
the
name
6
change.
Right
now
it's
called
the
MBE/
WBE
Program,
7
Minority
Business
Enterprises/
Women's
Business
8
Enterprises
Program.
We're
changing
that
to
­­
we're
9
proposing
that
the
name
be
changed
to
EPA's
DBE
Program,
10
Disadvantaged
Business
Enterprises
Program.
And
the
11
reason
we're
doing
that
is
to
bring
this
program
into
12
compliance
with
the
Federal
Procurement
Program,
which
13
basically
states
that
to
be
a
disadvantaged
business,
the
14
owner
does
not
necessarily
have
to
be
a
minority
or
a
15
woman.
There
could
be
circumstances
that
would
mandate
16
that
that
business
owner
is
nonetheless
disadvantaged,
17
even
though
he
may
not
be
a
woman
or
a
disadvantaged
­­
a
18
woman
or
a
minority
individual.
19
The
next
key
program
element
would
be
20
certification.
And
let
me
say
that
this
rule
is
nowhere
21
near
being
final.
I
mean,
this
is
our
last
public
22
meeting.
Comments
are
due
by
March
4th,
and
I'll
talk
23
about
that
at
the
end.
But
my
guess
is
that
it
will
24
probably
be
a
good
two
to
three
years
before
this
25
rulemaking
is
final.
So
let
me
add
that
right
now
we're
0016
1
working
under
the
current
program,
and
under
the
current
2
program,
certification
is
not
required.
Okay?
So
those
3
of
you
who
are
contractors,
if
you
want
to
do
business
4
with
the
State
of
Alaska
under
an
EPA
grant,
you
don't
5
have
to
be
certified
at
this
point.
You
would
not
have
6
to
be
certified
until
this
rule
became
final.
And
the
7
reason
we
are
including
certification
in
this
rule
is
8
that
in
order
to
meet
the
strict
scrutiny
of
Adarand,
we
9
have
to
make
sure
we
are
dealing
with
disadvantaged
10
businesses.
And
under
the
Federal
Program
­­
I
mean,
I
11
know
that
those
of
you
who
are
contractors
have
been
12
talking
about
it.
You
know,
there
are
certification
13
programs.
They
have
to
validate
your
net
worth.
They
14
have
to
validate
whether
or
not
you're
disadvantaged.
15
Some
of
the
other
facts
I'd
like
to
bring
up
16
under
certification
is
that
under
our
current
program,
17
not
only
do
minority
businesses
not
have
to
certify,
18
women­
owned
businesses
don't
have
to
certify
either.
But
19
under
the
new
program,
women­
owned
businesses
still
have
20
to
certify.
In
other
words,
that
would
have
to
be
21
reviewed
and
shown
that
these
business
are
owned
and
22
controlled
by
women,
because
sometimes
what
will
happen
23
is
we'll
have
a
situation
where
the
woman
is
really
24
representing
her
husband
and
is
not
really
the
owner.
So
25
under
this
program,
as
the
rule
is
proposed,
women­
owned
0017
1
businesses
would
have
to
be
certified
as
well.
2
Now,
we
will
accept
other
certifications.
EPA
3
does
have
plans
to
implement
some
type
of
certification
4
program,
but
we're
hoping
that
the
number
of
firms
that
5
will
come
to
us
for
certification
will
be
limited.
We
6
will
accept
any
other
certification,
i.
e.,
DOT,
SBA,
7
State,
Tribal,
any
type
of
certification,
as
long
as
the
8
certification
criteria
are
the
same
as
the
EPA's.
Well,
9
you
might
say,
"
Well,
what
are
the
EPA's
certification
10
criteria?"
There
are
two:
socially
disadvantaged
and
11
economically
disadvantaged.
In
terms
of
social
12
disadvantage,
certain
groups
are
presumed
to
be
socially
13
disadvantaged
just
by
their
shear
racial
or
ethnic
14
background,
African
Americans,
Native
Americans,
Hispanic
15
Americans,
Asian
Americans,
okay?
Others
can
still
show
16
they're
at
a
disadvantage
by
a
preponderance
of
the
17
evidence.
It
just
depends
on
the
facts
and
circumstances
18
in
each
case.
In
terms
of
the
economic
disadvantaged,
19
we're
following
procedures
under
SBA's
8(
a)
Program.
The
20
economic
disadvantage
is
a
net
worth
of
no
more
than
21
$
750,000,
excluding
your
interest
in
your
business
and
22
your
interest
in
the
personal
residence.
So
your
23
residence
comes
off
the
table,
the
interest
in
your
24
business
comes
off
the
table,
and
it's
everything
else
25
that's
left.
That
can
be
no
more
that
$
750,000.
0018
1
At
this
time
we
envision
five
categories
of
2
individuals
who
may
not
be
able
to
be
certified
by
some
3
other
organizations
such
as
SBA
or
DOT
because
of
4
differences
in
the
policies.
For
example,
SBA
at
this
5
point
does
not
certify
women­
owned
small
businesses.
6
There
have
been
efforts
to
levy
out
the
women­
owned
small
7
businesses
in
the
Set­
Aside
Program.
That
has
not
8
happened
yet.
So,
as
a
result,
SBA
does
not
have
a
9
certification
program
for
women­
owned
small
businesses.
10
So
that's
one
area
where
we'll
have
to
do
some
11
certification
work
ourselves.
12
The
next
area
I
want
to
talk
about
are
what
we
13
call
the
six
good
faith
efforts,
six
good
faith
efforts.
14
All
of
this
is
in
your
summary.
These
are
efforts
that
15
grant
recipients
as
well
as
prime
contractors
should
take
16
to
help
ensure
that
disadvantaged
businesses
actually
get
17
some
of
these
procurement
dollars.
Okay.
We've
talked
18
about
the
goals
and
how
we
negotiate
them
and
that
type
19
of
thing.
But
the
six
good
faith
efforts
are
really
key
20
in
that
these
are
steps
that
the
grant
recipient
and
21
prime
contractor
should
take
to
help
ensure
that
22
disadvantaged
businesses
actually
get
this
work.
And
23
after
I
talk
about
No.
4,
I'm
going
to
go
into
a
little
24
detail
about
what
those
six
good
faith
efforts
are.
25
There
are
a
number
of
contract
administration
0019
1
provisions
in
the
proposed
rule,
and
most
of
them
relate
2
to
actions
that
a
prime
contractor
would
take,
not
the
3
grant
recipient
but
a
prime
contractor.
And,
basically,
4
we've
put
these
contract
administration
provisions
in
5
place
to
somewhat
hold
prime
contractors
to
the
fire
and
6
not
allow
them
to
use
bait­
and­
switch
tactics
when
they
7
indicate
they're
going
to
use
a
disadvantaged
business
to
8
do
some
work.
Basically,
if,
for
any
reason,
they
9
terminate
a
disadvantaged
business,
then
the
prime
10
contractor
has
to
make
an
effort
to
find
another
11
disadvantaged
business.
12
Another
area
is
that
the
prime
contractors
13
have
to
make
the
same
efforts.
These
same
six
good
faith
14
efforts
that
the
grant
recipient
has
to
make,
the
prime
15
contractor
has
do
those
efforts,
as
well,
to
try
to
find
16
disadvantaged
business
subcontractors.
17
Another
key
area
of
contract
administration
is
18
that
the
prime
contractors
need
to
make
efforts
to
pay
19
their
disadvantaged
business
subcontractors
on
time.
20
That
can
be
a
problem
in
that,
you
know,
a
lot
of
the
21
smaller
businesses
really
need
that
money.
And
once
the
22
work
is
completed,
we
would
hope
the
disadvantaged
23
businesses
would
be
paid
in
a
reasonable
amount
of
time.
24
Okay.
I'm
now
going
to
go
back
to
those
six
25
good
faith
efforts,
because
I
like
to
talk
a
little
bit
0020
1
more
in
detail
about
those.
The
first
one
is
rather
2
general,
which
states
that
the
grant
recipient
will
3
ensure
that
DBEs
are
used
to
the
fullest
extent
as
4
possible.
In
order
to
do
that,
they
have
to
keep
5
records.
They
have
to
make
some
efforts.
I
think
No.
2
6
kind
of
follows
on
that
one,
is
that
the
grant
recipients
7
need
to
make
their
information
on
forthcoming
8
procurements
available
to
DBEs
in
a
timely
manner.
If
a
9
disadvantaged
business
does
not
know
about
the
10
procurement,
then
there's
no
way
they
can
compete
for
11
them.
So
the
grant
recipient
has
to
make
an
effort
to
12
really
put
the
word
out
there
as
soon
as
possible
and
13
give
it
the
widest
dissemination
as
possible.
14
In
selecting
a
large
business
prime
15
contractor,
the
grant
recipient
should
give
consideration
16
to
subcontracting
opportunities
according
to
DBEs,
17
disadvantaged
businesses.
We
can't
tell
a
grant
18
recipient
how
to
do
that.
Okay?
But
Step
3
of
the
six
19
good
faith
efforts
states
that
the
grant
recipient
should
20
give
consideration
to
any
actions
that
a
prime
contractor
21
has
indicated
they
would
take
to
include
disadvantaged
22
businesses.
One
such
action
might
be
having
a
23
Mentor­
Protege
Program
arrangement.
In
fact,
at
the
24
federal
level,
at
EPA
headquarters,
we
actually
do
give
25
the
prime
contractor
additional
points
during
the
award
0021
1
process
if
they've
entered
into
a
mentor­
protege
business
2
with
a
small
business.
3
No.
4,
encourage
contracting
with
DBE
4
consortia,
joint
ventures,
and
teaming
arrangements.
5
This
is
something
that
I
think
the
small
business
6
community
needs
to
learn
to
do
on
their
own
as
well,
7
because
the
large
businesses
do
it
all
the
time.
In
8
other
words,
if
you
want
to
go
after
a
procurement
either
9
at
the
federal
level
or
one
that's
being
offered
by
a
10
grant
recipient,
if
you
can't
do
all
the
work
yourself,
11
get
with
someone
who
can
do
what
you
can't
do.
You
know,
12
come
together
as
a
team,
because
teaming
arrangements
put
13
your
business
in
a
better
light
for
doing
all
the
work,
14
if
there
are
parts
of
your
work
you
can't
do
yourself.
15
And
you
don't
always
have
to
team
with
another
small
16
business.
It
might
be
that
you
might
want
to
team
with
a
17
large
business
as
well.
You
just
have
to
look
at
the
18
circumstances
and
figure
out
what
areas
where
your
firm
19
is
lacking
and
then
try
to
get
with
a
business
that
can
20
fill
that
void.
21
Okay.
The
next
talks
about
using
available
22
sources
to
identify
disadvantaged
businesses,
and
one
of
23
the
key
areas
is
SBA's
Central
Contractor
Registration.
24
It's
called
CCR.
How
many
of
you
have
heard
of
PRO­
Net.
25
Okay,
I
see
hands
going
up.
Effective
January
1st,
0022
1
PRO­
Net
has
been
rolled
into
CCR.
CCR
is
the
Central
2
Contractor
Registration.
And
basically
to
get
any
3
contract
with
the
federal
government,
you
now
have
to
be
4
registered
in
CCR.
So
any
of
you
that
have
businesses,
5
if
you
want
to
do
this
with
the
federal
government,
make
6
sure
you
get
a
CCR.
It's
on
the
internet.
Even
if
you
7
put
in
the
old
PRO­
Net
web
site,
it
will
automatically
8
pass
you
on
to
the
CCR
web
site,
and
that
is
exactly
the
9
same.
The
screens
look
the
same.
You
could
do
a
search
10
by
organization,
by
state,
by
key
word.
In
fact,
one
of
11
our
Superfund
Program
­­
I
talked
about
Superfund
a
12
little
earlier.
They
have
a
contract
where
they're
13
trying
to
identify
small
businesses,
and
only
a
few
small
14
businesses
had
expressed
interest.
So
they
came
to
our
15
office
last
week
and
said,
"
Dave,
what
can
you
do
to
help
16
us?"
So
I
went
to
CCR.
I
did
a
search
for
every
small
17
business
that
was
registered
in
CRR
that
had
the
term
18
"
environmental"
as
a
key
word.
I
got
a
list
of
2900
19
businesses.
CCR
automatically
generated
an
e­
mail
list.
20
I
sent
e­
mails
to
all
2900
of
those
businesses.
One
of
21
those
people
is
in
this
room
today,
because
what
he
did,
22
as
soon
as
he
got
it,
he
sent
me
an
e­
mail
back
asking
me
23
a
question.
So
we
know
it
worked.
But
those
are
the
24
types
of
things
that
are
at
our
disposal.
And
so
we
25
encourage
grant
recipients
to
use
some
of
those
type
0023
1
resources,
as
well
as
states,
tribes,
and
anyone
else
2
who's
looking
for
small
businesses.
3
And
then
the
next
item,
6,
is
what
I
alluded
4
to
earlier,
is
that
we
encourage
prime
contractors
to
do
5
the
same
thing
that
we
expect
our
grant
recipients
to
do,
6
because
not
only
are
we
looking
at
meeting
these
DBE
7
goals
at
the
prime
contractor
level
but
the
subcontractor
8
level,
as
well.
So
to
the
extent
that
a
prime
contractor
9
can
make
awards
to
disadvantaged
businesses
as
10
subcontractors,
then
that
counts
under
our
program
as
11
well.
12
Okay.
Now
we're
going
to
get
back
on
track
13
with
the
key
elements.
Determining
fair
share
goals.
14
Okay.
I
talked
about
­­
I
used
Vermont
and
California
as
15
examples,
and
I
mentioned
that
before
Adarand,
we
just
16
put
the
8
percent
or
10
percent
in
all
of
our
grants;
we
17
just
did
that.
In
order
to
know
what
the
goal
really
18
should
be,
the
grant
recipient
has
to
do
some
type
of
19
study
or
something
to
validate
what
that
goal
should
be.
20
The
normal
process
is
to
do
what's
called
an
availability
21
analysis
or
disparity
study.
And
if
you
look
at
those
22
two
terms
just
on
the
surface,
you
kind
of
get
an
idea
of
23
it.
Availability?
"
What's
the
availability
of
24
disadvantaged
businesses
within
my
universe?"
Okay.
In
25
terms
of
disparity
studies,
basically
the
same
thing;
you
0024
1
know,
this
the
percentage
of
disadvantaged
businesses
in
2
my
geographical
area.
This
is
the
percentage
of
the
work
3
they're
getting.
"
Is
there
a
disparity?"
That's
4
basically
the
type
of
study
we're
talking
about.
5
An
interesting
point
that
I'll
talk
about
here
6
is
that
under
our
current
program
­­
I
mentioned
we've
7
negotiated
the
goals
with
the
states.
We
have
not
8
negotiated
any
goals
with
Native
American
entities.
We
9
have
not.
Right
now
we're
treating
everything
­­
any
10
grant
dollars
that
go
to
a
Native
American
entity,
any
11
procurements
that
result
in
those
grant
dollars
we're
12
treating
as
100
percent
going
to
minorities.
Okay?
13
We're
counting
it
all.
Okay?
So
we
give
a
grant
to
a
14
particular
Native
village
and
then
they
award
contracts
15
to
get
some
work
done.
Regardless
of
who
they
give
that
16
money
to,
we're
treating
that
as
100
percent
going
to
17
minorities
because
it's
going
to
a
Native
American
18
village.
Okay?
What
that
means,
though,
is
that
in
a
19
lot
of
instances
we're
counting
dollars
that
are
going
to
20
non­
disadvantaged
businesses,
okay,
as
actually
going
to
21
disadvantaged
businesses.
22
I'll
give
one
example
from
Region
IV.
I
will
23
not
name
the
tribe.
But
I
got
a
call
from
Region
IV
that
24
said,
"
Dave,
we've
just
given
a
grant
to
this
Nation
and
25
the
Nation
awarded
a
$
5
million
dollar
contract
to
a
0025
1
non­
minority,
non­
women­
owned,
non­
disadvantaged
2
business,
and
we've
reported
to
Congress
that
this
is
3
going
to
minorities."
Okay?
Doesn't
add
up.
Doesn't
4
make
sense.
5
ACHILLES:
Dave,
I'm
sorry
to
interrupt.
My
6
name
is
Achilles.
And
I
guess
that
kind
of
leads
me
7
into
­­
you're
probably
getting
into
this,
is
how
do
you
8
guys
know
that
­­
or,
I
guess,
who's
policing
that
and
9
letting
you
guys
know
that
that's
actually
happening?
10
Because
I
noticed
in
all
your
phrases
you're
saying
11
"
should,"
you
know,
these
contractors
or
these
things
12
"
should"
happen.
What
happens
if
they
don't?
13
MR.
SUTTON:
Marie
and
I
talked
about
this
14
just
before
the
meeting.
We
say
"
should"
because
it's
a
15
goaling
program;
it's
not
a
quota.
16
ACHILLES:
Right.
Yeah.
17
MR.
SUTTON:
We
cannot
beat
anybody
up
for
not
18
making
the
goal.
But
I've
talked
about
the
six
good
19
faith
efforts.
20
ACHILLES:
Right.
21
MR.
SUTTON:
If
we
were
to
go
out
and
do
a
22
review,
and
we
reviewed
a
grant
recipient's
files
and
23
those
files
did
not
indicate
that
they
had
made
efforts
24
to
locate
disadvantaged
businesses,
the
worst
case
we
25
could
do
is
we
could
withhold
the
grant
funds;
and
Marie
0026
1
has
done
that.
So
that's
it.
We
have
to
use
­­
I
say
2
"
should"
because
it's
a
goaling
program;
it's
not
a
3
quota.
So
we
can't
­­
I
mean,
there's
no
penalty
for
not
4
meeting
the
goals,
but
we
can
assess
a
penalty
for
not
5
taking
steps
to
try
to
implement
the
program.
6
MS.
MCPEAK:
The
thing
to
remember
is
that
7
every
grant
that
goes
out
from
Region
X
has
a
term
and
8
condition
that
specifies
the
six
fair
­­
good
faith
9
efforts
that
the
grantees
have
to
follow,
and
it
also
10
specifies
the
reporting
requirements.
And
so
on
a
11
quarterly
or
annual
basis,
depending
on
the
program,
each
12
grant
recipient
is
supposed
to
be
reporting
to
us
what
13
type
of
utilization
they
have
actually
achieved.
Then
if
14
we
go
out
and
do
reviews
and
so
forth
in
their
files,
15
they
should
have
documentation
to
show
how
a
certain
16
supplier
or
a
certain
contractor
was
actually
hired
or
17
whom
they
purchased
services
from.
There
should
be
also
18
documentation
to
show
that
they
have
looked
for
minority
19
and
women
businesses
and
given
them
an
opportunity
to
20
quote
on
whatever
type
of
thing
that
they're
trying
to
21
procure.
And
so
if
there
isn't,
then
you're
in
violation
22
of
the
terms
and
conditions
of
your
grant,
if
you
have
23
not
done
that.
And
when
you're
in
violation
of
your
24
terms
and
conditions
of
your
grant,
it
could
mean
that
we
25
withhold
payments.
It
could
mean
that
you
won't
get
any
0027
1
further
grants.
The
most
drastic
measure
would
be
2
department
suspension,
which
we
probably
would
not
get
3
into
that.
But
that's
where
our
grant
recipients,
they
4
must
be
in
compliance
with
the
terms
and
conditions,
and
5
that's
why
we
put
them
in
as
terms
and
conditions
in
6
every
grant
agreement.
And
the
recipient
agrees
to
7
follow
those
terms
and
conditions;
otherwise,
they
do
8
have
penalties
held
against
them.
9
ACHILLES:
Thank
you.
10
MR.
SUTTON:
All
right.
A
little
bit
more
11
about
determine
fair
share
goals.
One
of
the
last
points
12
I
made
was
that,
as
of
this
point,
we
have
not
had
any
13
negotiations
of
goals
with
Native
American
entities.
14
Okay?
The
rule
as
currently
written,
as
currently
15
proposed,
indicates
that
that
would
be
a
gradual
16
phase­
in,
okay,
that
we
would
probably
begin
negotiation
17
with
some
of
the
larger
tribes
and
then
work
with
the
18
others
as
they
were
able
to
make
these
type
reviews.
At
19
this
point
in
time
we
envision
that
the
negotiation
20
process
or
phasing­
in
the
Native
American
entities
would
21
be
a
three­
year
process.
This
would
be
three
years
after
22
the
rule
become
final.
As
I
mentioned,
right
now
we're
23
probably
two
to
three
years
away,
so
the
earliest
that
we
24
would
probably
begin
negotiating
any
goals
with
Indian
25
tribes
or
other
Native
American
entities
would
be
about
0028
1
five
or
six
years
from
now.
It's
a
long
way
down
the
2
road.
Okay.
And
I'm
going
to
talk
about
some
exceptions
3
a
little
bit
later.
4
Okay.
Submission
of
fair
share
goals:
The
5
key
point
here
is
that
right
now
we
put
the
goals
into
a
6
grant.
As
Marie
mentioned,
as
a
grant
is
going
out,
we
7
put
the
goals
in.
Under
the
proposed
rule,
a
grant
8
recipient
would
have
90
days
from
the
date
of
the
9
contract
award
to
come
to
us
with
what
they
have
as
their
10
proposed
goals
with
any
supporting
documentation.
That
11
would
be
the
availability
analysis,
the
disparity
study.
12
Or
maybe
even
after
they
did
an
availability
analysis
or
13
disparity
study,
they
found
that
maybe
there
were
some
14
other
factors
that
needed
to
be
considered,
whatever
15
those
factors
were.
So
it
basically
would
be
their
16
analysis,
plus
any
other
circumstances
that
would
17
indicate
that
the
goals
should
be
more
or
less.
18
The
other
key
point
about
the
submission
of
19
fair
share
goals
is
that
the
proposed
rule
allows
a
grant
20
recipient
to
use
another
entity's
goals
as
long
as
the
21
bidding
practices
are
essentially
the
same.
Let's
say,
22
for
example,
I'll
use
­­
let's
say
we
have
two
villages
23
here
in
Alaska,
and
let's
say
that
both
of
them
do
their
24
bidding
within
a
certain
geographical
area.
So
if
one
25
had
already
determined
what
the
goal
should
be,
and
the
0029
1
other
entity
agreed
that
their
bidding
process
and
their
2
bidding
area
is
the
same,
they
could
use
the
same
goals.
3
No.
7
talks
about
race­
and
gender­
conscious
4
efforts.
These
are
efforts
that
a
grant
recipient
could
5
take
­­
and
this
goes
back
to
your
question,
sir,
if
they
6
found
that
a
specific
grant
recipient
was
never
meeting
7
the
goals.
Okay.
I
mean,
if
they
found
that
­­
you
8
know,
they
went
out,
they
looked
at
the
records,
and
the
9
grant
recipient
had
records
that
indicated
they
had
10
tried,
they
had
just
never
met
the
goals,
then
the
grant
11
recipient
could
come
to
us
and
ask
us
­­
they
would
12
actually
propose
to
us
the
race­
and
gender­
conscious
13
efforts
they
would
want
to
use.
And
we
would
have
to,
of
14
course,
run
them
through
our
EPA
attorneys
to
make
sure
15
they
could
meet
judicial
scrutiny
and
that
our
program
16
wouldn't
be
challenged.
But
then
that
might
be,
for
17
example
­­
let's
say,
you
know,
if
that
was
a
village
18
that
­­
if
there
was
a
grant
recipient
that
never
met
the
19
goals,
it
might
be
something
like
targeting
specific
20
groups
of
people
or
targeting
specific
types
of
21
businesses,
I
mean,
targeting
Native
American­
owned
22
businesses,
maybe
targeting
women­
owned
businesses,
and
23
maybe
increasing
the
outreach
to
try
to
get
those
types
24
of
businesses
involved
in
the
process.
25
Okay.
Exemptions.
Okay.
We
have
a
number
of
0030
1
exemptions
in
the
rule
as
it's
already
proposed.
First
2
of
all,
in
terms
of
goal
negotiation,
any
grant
that
is
3
$
250,000
or
less
will
not
be
subject
to
fair
share
4
negotiations.
They
would
not
have
to
determine
goals
5
with
us.
Okay?
All
they'd
have
to
do
is
do
those
six
6
good
faith
efforts
and
report
their
actual
7
accomplishments.
In
addition,
if
there
were
a
series
of
8
grants
within
a
year
that
ended
up
being
250
or
less,
9
that
grant
recipient,
again,
would
not
have
to
do
the
10
fair
share
negotiations.
They
could
just
do
the
six
good
11
faith
efforts
and
do
the
reporting.
This
not
only
12
applies
to
grant
recipients,
but
also
recipients
of
any
13
EPA
loans,
for
example,
loans
under
our
Clean
Water
SRF
14
and
Drinking
Water
State
Revolving
Fund
Program.
So
any
15
loans
or
grants
that
are
250
less,
250,000
or
less,
or
if
16
there's
more
than
one
within
a
year
that
adds
up
to
250
17
or
less,
those
would
be
exempt
from
the
fair
share
18
negotiations.
19
In
addition
­­
and
this
one
is
going
to
affect
20
a
number
of
you
in
here,
grants
to
tribes
and
intertribal
21
consortia
that
are
treated
as
PPGs
are
also
exempt
from
22
fair
share
negotiations.
So
if
the
only
grants
that
your
23
organization
is
getting
is
through
PPGs,
you're
exempt.
24
MS.
MCPEAK:
And
also
the
individual
programs
25
that
can
go
into
a
PPG,
which
includes
GAP
­­
GAP
can
be
0031
1
put
into
a
PPG
­­
that
program
is
exempt
from
2
establishing
fair
share
negotiations.
You're
not
exempt
3
from
reporting
and
you're
not
exempt
from
using
the
good
4
faith
efforts,
but
you
are
exempt
from
goal
setting.
5
BOB
PAWLOWSKI:
Would
you
just
define
PPG?
6
MS.
MCPEAK:
PPG
is
the
Performance
7
Partnership
Grant.
And
it's
more
like
some
of
the
block
8
grants
that,
like,
HUD
gives
out
and
some
of
the
other
9
agencies
give
out,
and
it
has
several
programs
in
it.
We
10
have
17
programs
that
can
go
into
a
Performance
11
Partnership
Grant.
And
you
have
to
be
eligible
for
two
12
of
those
programs
in
order
to
put
it
in
there,
and
then
13
you're
able
to
move
money
around
within
that
particular
14
grant.
15
MR.
SUTTON:
Yeah.
I
think
one
of
the
16
good­
news
stories
for
those
of
you
in
this
room
is
that,
17
in
speaking
to
Marie
before
we
came
in
here,
about
80
to
18
90
percent
of
the
grants
that
are
going
to
Alaska
Native
19
villages
are
PPGs.
20
MS.
MCPEAK:
Are
­­
no,
GAP.
21
MR.
SUTTON:
GAP.
Excuse
me.
22
MS.
MCPEAK:
They're
GAP.
23
MR.
SUTTON:
Are
GAP.
So
that
means
you
24
wouldn't
even
have
to
be
bothered
with
this
fair
share
25
negotiation
process
as
the
rule
is
currently
proposed.
I
0032
1
keep
saying
that
because
we
have
not
evaluated
the
2
comments,
and
who
knows,
you­
all
may
give
us
some
3
comments
that
cause
us
to
make
some
changes.
Yes,
sir?
4
ATTENDEE:
Could
you
speak
in
front
of
the
5
whole
group?
Our
necks
are
getting
sore.
6
MR.
SUTTON:
Oh,
I'm
sorry.
7
So
as
I
was
saying,
for
most
of
you
in
here,
8
those
of
who
you
are
representing
Alaska
Native
villages,
9
for
the
most
part
you
never
have
to
be
bothered
with
the
10
fair
share
negotiations
because
they
wouldn't
apply.
11
Okay.
Recordkeeping
and
reporting
­­
now
I'm
12
blocking
these
guys.
13
ATTENDEE:
No,
you're
fine.
You're
fine.
14
MR.
SUTTON:
Recordkeeping
and
reporting,
15
basically
those
entities
receiving
Continuing
16
Environmental
Program
Grants.
17
And
those
are
mainly
the
states,
right,
18
Marie?
19
MS.
MCPEAK:
Well,
the
way
it's
written
right
20
now,
the
Continuing
Environmental
Program
is
really
not
a
21
term
that's
in
any
of
the
EPA's
regulations
anymore.
We
22
use
40
CFR,
Part
35,
Subpart
A
for
states
and
Subpart
B
23
is
for
tribes,
and
that
basically
incorporates
all
of
the
24
grants
that
were
once
Continuing
Environmental
Programs.
25
MR.
SUTTON:
Okay.
So
are
you
saying
that
0033
1
some
tribes
will
receive
Continuing
Environmental
Program
2
Grants?
3
MS.
MCPEAK:
Yes.
And,
in
fact,
GAP
is
one
of
4
the
Subpart
B.
5
MR.
SUTTON:
All
right.
If
a
recipient
is
6
receiving
a
Continuing
Environmental
Program
Grant,
then
7
they
are
required
by
this
proposed
rule,
as
written,
to
8
maintain
a
bidders
list
for
as
long
as
the
grant
is
in
9
process.
This
is
another
means
of
enforcement.
In
other
10
words,
if
they
maintain
a
bidders
list
in
their
files,
11
then
if
we
do
a
review,
we
can
see
whether
or
not
they've
12
actually
made
efforts
to
identify
disadvantaged
13
businesses
for
doing
some
of
this
work.
14
And,
finally,
I'd
like
to
talk
about
waivers.
15
Basically,
the
OSDBU
director,
my
boss,
or
whoever
is
16
ever
in
it,
the
OSDBU
director
can
grant
a
waiver
on
any
17
point
in
this
rule,
depending
on
the
facts
and
18
circumstances.
I
mean,
if
someone
came
forward
and
said,
19
"
I'd
like
a
waiver
to
Paragraph
3(
b)
because
of...",
and
20
then
our
director
could
make
an
evaluation,
run
it
21
through
legal
counsel,
and
entertain
whether
or
not
that
22
waiver
should
be
granted.
23
Okay.
Another
thing
I'd
just
like
to
mention
24
to
you,
and
I'm
not
going
to
go
into
a
lot
of
detail.
25
You
won't
be
able
to
see
this
too
well.
But
this
is
0034
1
basically
the
form
that
is
used
to
report
actual
2
accomplishments.
Because
your
question,
sir,
was
"
How
do
3
you
now
what
they
are
doing?"
and
Marie
alluded
to
it.
4
Non­
profits
report
annually.
Most
state
agencies
report
5
quarterly.
And
basically
what
they
do
is
they
tell
us
­­
6
they
give
us
the
grant
number,
they
tells
us
the
total
7
amount
they've
spent
on
procurements,
they
tell
us
the
8
total
they've
spent
with
minority­
owned
business,
the
9
total
they've
spent
with
women­
owned
businesses,
and
10
those
percentages.
Now,
I
know
you
can't
see
it,
but
11
down
at
the
bottom
there's
a
Block
5D,
and
it
breaks
down
12
procurements
into
four
categories:
construction,
13
equipment,
services,
and
supplies.
And
when
you
really
14
think
about
it,
that's
anything
we
would
buy.
I
mean,
15
anything
­­
you
can't
buy
anything
that
doesn't
fit
into
16
construction,
equipment,
services
or
supplies.
But
the
17
reason
we
broke
it
down
into
those
four
categories
is
18
that
sometimes
a
grant
recipient
will
have
different
19
goals,
depending
on
what
it
it.
For
example,
you
might
20
have
a
higher
goal
for
women
within
services
than
you
21
would
have
in
construction.
So
as
we've
negotiated
with
22
some
of
our
states,
what
we've
found
is
that
the
goals
23
for
some
of
those
four
categories
may
be
different.
Some
24
states,
in
fact,
have
used
different
goals
for
each
one
25
of
them.
0035
1
Marie,
the
states
in
Region
X,
how
do
they
2
look?
Are
they
all
­­
3
MS.
MCPEAK:
They
negotiate
goals
for
each
one
4
of
those
areas,
and
the
goals
are
different
because
the
5
suppliers
for
the
different
categories
are
different.
6
And
so
normally
they
have
different
goals
for
each
7
classification.
8
MR.
SUTTON:
Okay.
All
right.
That's
about
9
as
much
as
I
want
to
say.
But
before
I
bring
you
up,
I'm
10
going
to
try
to
make
an
effort
to
give
a
brief
summary
of
11
what
I've
told
you.
12
The
major
elements
of
this
rule
are
­­
they
13
address
fair
share
negotiations;
in
other
words,
14
determine
what
your
goals
should
be.
I
mentioned
that
if
15
you're
getting
a
GAP
or
a
PPG,
you're
probably
never
16
going
to
have
to
negotiate
goals.
If
you
do
negotiate
17
goals
or
if
you
do
have
a
requirement
to
negotiate
goals,
18
you
may
be
able
to
use
another
entity's
goals
if
you're
19
bidding
practices
are
substantially
the
same.
Okay?
20
Grant
recipients
and
prime
contractors
must
21
use
the
six
good
faith
efforts
to
identify
disadvantaged
22
businesses.
Keep
the
records,
make
wide
dissemination,
23
do
those
types
of
things.
Reporting:
You
have
to
report
24
their
accomplishments
on
Form
5700­
52A.
And
then
the
25
major
requirement
on
the
disadvantaged
businesses
under
0036
1
this
new
rule
is
that
disadvantaged
businesses
will
now
2
have
to
be
certified.
You
know,
right
now
it's
a
3
self­
certification
program.
If
you
go
to
a
state
agency
4
or
any
grant
recipient,
a
tribal
entity
or
whomever,
and
5
say,
"
Okay,
I'm
a
disadvantaged
business.
Look
at
me.
6
I'm
one,"
they
take
your
word
for
it.
But
under
this
7
rule,
as
proposed,
you
would
have
to
be
certified
as
8
such.
Okay?
9
All
right.
That's
basically
all
that
I
want
10
to
present
at
this
time.
We'll
give
you
an
opportunity
11
to
come
forward,
state
your
name,
state
your
12
organization,
give
us
any
comments.
If
there's
something
13
really
burning
in
your
mind
right
now,
if
you
want
us
to
14
know,
tell
us
because
we're
going
to
record
it
and
we're
15
going
to
carry
it
back
with
us.
In
addition,
we're
going
16
to
encourage
you
to
give
us
written
comments
provided
to
17
the
address
or
the
e­
mail
address
shown
on
the
chart
over
18
there.
Okay?
With
that,
I'll
ask
you
to
come
forward.
19
BOB
PAWLOWSKI:
David,
before
you
go
forward,
20
a
question
about
the
reg.
You
presented
this
information
21
with
regards
to
grants,
and
pointed
out
that
20
­­
about
22
20
percent
of
the
EPA
was
set
for
contracts.
23
MR.
SUTTON:
Right.
24
BOB
PAWLOWSKI:
Has
there
been
any
talks
25
within
EPA
of
using
the
Indian
Incentive
Clause
in
the
0037
1
bar
to
encourage
the
employment
of
disadvantaged,
2
particularly
of
Tribal
entities,
on
contracts,
by
3
providing
an
incentive
to
the
tribe?
4
MR.
SUTTON:
A
monetary
incentive?
5
BOB
PAWLOWSKI:
Yeah.
5
percent.
6
MR.
SUTTON:
Yeah.
There's
been
discussion
of
7
it,
but
we
haven't
done
it,
primarily
because
of
budget
8
constraints.
But
we've
certainly
talked
about
it.
And
9
that's
similar
to
the
price
evaluation
adjustment
that
we
10
have
for
disadvantaged
businesses
and
for
HUBzones.
And
11
I
don't
know
of
any
case
in
EPA
where
we've
used
them.
12
We've
certainly
talked
about
it,
but
I
don't
know
of
any
13
instance
where
we've
actually
used
it.
14
SCOTT
OLSEN:
Scott
Olsen.
Okay.
I
got
lost
15
here.
Getting
back
to
the
fund
cap
for
DBEs,
you
said
16
750,000
was
the
cap,
but
you
said
that
was
after
a
couple
17
of
things
had
came
to
pass,
and
I
didn't
catch
that.
18
MR.
SUTTON:
Sure.
That's
excluding
your
19
personal
residence
and
the
interest
in
your
business.
So
20
it's
really
talking
cash,
stocks,
bonds,
cars,
those
21
kinds
of
things.
Your
business
comes
off
the
table
and
22
your
personal
residence
comes
off.
And
those
are
the
23
same
criteria
used
by
SBA
to
certify
disadvantaged
24
businesses.
They
use
the
exact
same
criteria.
25
MR.
SUTTON:
Okay.
Yes,
sir?
0038
1
ACHILLES:
My
name
is
Achilles.
I'm
with
AK
2
Business
Interiors.
In
your
closing
statements,
you
had
3
mentioned
that
these
companies
or
­­
I
guess
these
4
entities
would
want
to
use
what
you're
going
to
call
or
5
change
the
name
to
as
the
DBE.
I
guess
I
don't
see
any
6
kind
of
mandate
in
there
telling
them
­­
or
anywhere
in
7
that
good
faith
list
that
they
actually
look
on
those
8
lists,
or
you're
not
telling
them
where
they
should
look
9
for
those
lists
to
find
out
whether
they
can
­­
or,
I
10
guess,
check
out
the
updated
list
to
find
out
if
there
11
is,
in
fact,
a
new
DBE
that's
been
put
on
that
list
for
12
that
particular
job
that
they're
looking
to
fill.
13
MR.
SUTTON:
Yeah.
Yeah,
what
we've
done
is
14
we've
asked
­­
if
you
look
at
the
body
of
the
rule,
it
15
goes
into
a
lot
more
detail.
We're
asking
that
the
grant
16
recipients
and
prime
contractors
use
basically
every
17
available
resource.
And
I
think
as
the
rule
is
currently
18
written,
we
use
PRO­
Net,
as
an
example.
19
ACHILLES:
Okay.
20
MR.
SUTTON:
When
we
granted
this
rule
back
21
last
year,
I
mean
it
first
went
to
the
Federal
Register
22
July
23rd,
2003.
Well,
effective
January
1st
this
year,
23
PRO­
Net
is
out
the
window.
It's
now
CCR.
But
we
did
use
24
PRO­
Net
as
an
example.
But
basically
we're
telling
them
25
to
use
any
and
every
resource
that's
available
to
0039
1
identify
businesses
doing
this
work.
We
have
to
be
2
careful
in
how
­­
we
can
tell
them
in
general
terms
what
3
needs
to
be
done,
but
we
have
to
be
careful
in
telling
4
them
­­
giving
them
specific
steps
on
how
to
do
it
5
because
states,
tribes,
everyone
has
their
own
6
procurement
programs,
their
own
procurement
systems.
So
7
all
that
we
can
do
is
really
give
them
a
broad
framework
8
to
work
within.
But
we
did
use
PRO­
Net
as
an
example
in
9
the
proposed
rule.
10
CLAIRE
MARTIN:
I'm
Claire
Martin
with
Togiak
11
Tribe.
If
we
work
with
GAP,
right,
and
we
network
with
a
12
lot
of
different
tribes,
and
if
they
have
services,
like,
13
with
a
consultant,
could
we
sole
source?
14
MR.
SUTTON:
That's
a
very
good
question.
15
Marie,
did
you
hear
that
question?
She
wondered
if
they
16
could
sole
source.
First
of
all,
we
don't
­­
that
was
17
one
of
the
examples
­­
that's
a
very
good
example
of
what
18
I
just
said.
We
don't
really
tell
a
grant
recipient
how
19
to
do
it.
We
kind
of
tell
them
in
the
broad
scheme
of
20
things
what
needs
to
be
done.
But
we
are
encouraged
21
within
EPA,
even
within
our
grants,
to
have
competition.
22
To
answer
your
question,
if
you
came
to
me
and
23
I'm
a
grant
project
officer
and
I
do
have
a
grant
in
our
24
office,
if
you
were
a
grant
recipient
and
you
came
in
and
25
said,
"
I
want
to
sole
source,"
I
probably
would
not
bless
0040
1
it.
I
mean,
I
would
probably
encourge
you
to
seek
some
2
type
of
competition.
But,
again,
that
would
be
a
3
decision
that
you,
as
the
grant
recipient,
would
have
to
4
make.
But
we
generally
try
to
foster
competition,
you
5
know,
to
the
extent
we
can.
That
doesn't
mean
that
you
6
wouldn't
do
a
competition
limited
to
small
businesses
or
7
to
disadvantage
businesses,
whatever
you
wanted
to
do.
8
But
we
probably
would
not
encourage
sole
source
9
procurements
today.
10
MS.
MCPEAK:
One
word
on
sole
sourcing:
If
11
you
look
in
Part
31.36,
it
will
give
you
what
the
12
justification
is
you
have
to
have
in
order
to
do
a
sole
13
source
contract.
And
you
have
to
meet
the
conditions
of
14
doing
that,
and
you
have
to
document
that
in
your
files
15
in
order
to
be
approved
for
a
sole
source.
And
it's
not
16
always
that
easy.
Because
it's
like
there's
an
17
emergency,
and
just
because
you
put
off
not
procuring
it
18
right
away
doesn't
necessarily
mean
that
it's
really
an
19
emergency
that
you
do
it.
So
there
is
a
criteria
in
the
20
regulations
that
specifies
what
you
have
to
document
your
21
files
as
to
why
you
went
with
that
source.
22
Now,
a
different
type
of
a
sole
source
is
like
23
Indian
preference.
And
you
can
give
preference
to
Native
24
American
businesses
in
your
procurement.
And
we
do
25
consider
Native
American
businesses
to
be
minority
0041
1
businesses
so
it
can
be
counted
for
participation.
So
we
2
encourage
you
to
look
around
for
Native
American
3
businesses
to
utilize
in
your
own
communities.
4
MR.
SUTTON:
Yes.
At
the
federal
level,
5
except
for
the
8(
a)
Program
­­
the
8(
a)
Program
allows
us
6
to
do
a
sole
source
if
we
identify
a
firm
­­
an
8(
a)
firm
7
that
can
do
the
work.
For
non­
Native
American
firms,
the
8
threshold
is
$
3
million
or
less.
Except
for
9
construction,
it's
like
5
million.
But
for
Native
10
Americans,
the
threshold
is
unlimited.
And
we've
done
11
that
at
EPA.
We've
award
a
$
100
million
contract
to
a
12
Native
American­
owned
8(
a)
firm.
Now,
those
are
the
only
13
firms
that
we
can
do
a
direct
sole
source
with.
We
can
14
do
sole
sources
with
other
firms,
but
there's
one
key
15
requirement;
that
is,
they
are
the
only
firm
that's
16
capable
of
doing
that
work.
Now,
I'm
sure
that
the
part
17
that
Marie
talked
about
from
the
CFR
would
probably
18
state,
as
well,
that
if
you
only
have
one
firm
up
there
19
that
could
do
it,
you
could
probably
justify
doing
it
as
20
a
sole
source.
But
that's
the
only
circumstance
that
we
21
have
at
the
federal
level
right
now,
either
through
the
22
8(
a)
Program,
at
least
the
monetary
threshold,
or
there's
23
only
one
firm
that
can
do
the
work.
24
Did
I
have
a
question
on
this
side?
25
BOB
PAWLOWSKI:
No.
I
was
raising
a
point
0042
1
for
­­
that
you
just
clarified
on
the
difference
between
2
a
sole
source
and
an
8(
a)
noncompetitive
set­
aside.
3
MR.
SUTTON:
Right.
Yes,
ma'am.
4
NANCY
OLIVER:
Nancy
Oliver
with
Safety
Waste
5
Incineration.
Do
you
give
grants
to
Indian
businesses
or
6
just
to
tribes
and
non­
profits?
7
MR.
SUTTON:
Grants
only
go
to
non­
profits,
8
not
to
profitable
entities.
Now,
if
your
business
needs
9
some
assistance
­­
10
NANCY
OLIVER:
Yeah.
11
MR.
SUTTON:
­­
for
example,
maybe
a
loan,
you
12
might
be
interested
in
getting
a
loan
or
something
like
13
that,
you
can
always
go
to
SBA,
the
Small
Business
14
Administration.
They
do
have
a
loan
program
for
small
15
businesses.
Our
grants
are
to
non­
profits.
16
MS.
MCPEAK:
But
we
do
have
one
program
that
17
is
the
Small
Business
Innovative
Research
Program
that
18
does
give
grants
to
businesses
for
doing
selected
19
research
projects.
20
MR.
SUTTON:
Yeah.
And
if
you're
interested
21
in
that
program,
I
can
give
you
a
web
site.
It's
22
www.
epa.
gov/
sbir,
Small
Business
Innovative
Research
23
Program
­­
www.
sba.
gov/
sbir.
And
let
me
clarify
there
24
that
under
that
particular
program,
we
have
certain
areas
25
of
research
that
we're
looking
for
every
year.
It's
an
0043
1
annual
program.
So
it's
not
that
a
small
business
could
2
come
forward
and
say,
"
Okay,
I
want
to
go
after
one
of
3
these
grants."
I
mean,
you
have
to
give
a
proposal
4
related
to
the
area
that
we're
looking
for
that
5
particular
year.
But
if
you
go
to
that
web
site,
we
6
usually
­­
it's
probably
too
late
for
this
year
because
I
7
think
the
closing
dates
for
all
of
those
is
around
the
8
end
of
May
of
each
year.
But
if
you're
interested
next
9
year,
you
could
certainly
take
a
look.
But
I
would
10
encourage
you
to
go
to
SBA
to
find
out
maybe
what
loan
or
11
assistance
programs
they
might
have
in
this
area
for
12
small
businesses.
13
NANCY
OLIVER:
Thank
you.
14
MS.
MCPEAK:
I
think
for
this
year
the
15
deadline
for
applications
was
somewhere
around
the
middle
16
of
March
for
this
year.
17
MR.
SUTTON:
So
that's
over,
practically.
18
Other
questions?
19
Okay.
Well,
before
I
give
Marie
a
chance
to
20
close,
I
just
want
to
reiteriate
­­
you
know,
some
of
you
21
have
had
some
good
questions
and
comments
today.
We've
22
captured
those.
I
encourage
you
to
read
the
summary,
go
23
back,
take
a
look,
either
e­
mail
or
mail
us
your
24
comments.
The
e­
mail
address
and
mailing
address
are
25
over
here
on
the
flip
chart.
We
will
be
accepting
0044
1
comments
until
March
4th.
The
original
closing
date
was
2
January
31st.
But
once
we
were
able
to
get
on
the
agenda
3
to
come
here
to
Alaska
and
have
this
meeting,
we
extended
4
our
comment
period
to
March
4th.
We
definitely
want
to
5
get
your
input.
There
are,
as
you
know,
from
our
6
discussion
today,
a
number
of
issues
that
particularly
7
impact
the
way
we
do
business
with
tribes
and
Native
8
American
entities,
the
fact
that
we've
never
negotiated
9
goals,
the
fact
that
we
plan
to
start
negotiating
goals,
10
we
plan
to
start
a
phase­
in.
I
encourage
you
to
look
at
11
those
procedures,
and
if
you
can
think
of
a
better
way
of
12
doing
what
we
plan
to
do
or
different
areas
that
we
13
should
consider,
we'd
certainly
like
your
comments.
14
MS.
MCPEAK:
And
if
you
have
any
questions
15
about
the
program
or
how
to
comply
under
your
assistance
16
program,
my
name
and
number
is
on
this
salmon­
colored
17
sheet
here.
And
I'm
located
in
the
Seattle
office,
and
18
I'll
be
more
than
happy
to
answer
your
questions,
whether
19
it
be
on
reporting,
whether
it
be
on
the
new
rule,
or
on
20
any
kind
of
aspect
concerning
this
new
proposed
rule
or
21
the
existing
requirements.
22
MR.
SUTTON:
And
your
packet
does
include
our
23
office
business
card.
Jeanette
Brown
is
on
the
front.
24
I'm
the
top
person
on
the
back,
Dave
Sutton.
And
I
have
25
one
of
the
easiest
direct
phone
numbers
at
EPA.
It's
0045
1
area
code
202
­­
make
sure
it's
on
here
­­
202­
564­
4444,
2
202­
564­
4444.
And
if
you
want
to
e­
mail
me
or
anybody
3
else
at
EPA,
it's
very
easy.
It's
last
name,
dot
first
4
name,
at
EPA
dot
gov.
So
I'm
Sutton,
S­
U­
T­
T­
O­
N,
dot
5
David,
D­
A­
V­
I­
D,
at
EPA
dot
gov.
Marie
is
6
mcpeak.
marie@
epa.
gov.
7
That's
it.
Anything
else?
8
BOB
PAWLOWSKI:
I
have
a
question
somewhat
9
related
to
this,
but
the
subject
of
mentor­
protege
came
10
up.
If
we
find
a
company
in
a
region
that
we
would
like
11
to
move
forward
with,
are
you
one
of
the
people
we
should
12
come
to,
to
talk
about
opportunities?
13
MS.
MCPEAK:
Well,
the
Mentor­
Protege
Program
14
is
run
out
of
headquarters,
so
you
can
call
Dave
on
15
that.
16
MR.
SUTTON:
You
can
call
me.
What
we
17
generally
encourage
you
to
do
is
to
go
ahead
and
work
the
18
agreement
with
the
prime
contractor.
19
BOB
PAWLOWSKI:
Sure.
20
MR.
SUTTON:
And
generally
what
we
do,
the
21
program
normally
kicks
in
when
there
is
a
procurement.
22
That
doesn't
stop
you
from
going
to
Tetra
Tech
right
now
23
and
saying,
"
Look,
I'm
available.
I'd
like
to
set
up
an
24
agreement
with
you."
But
generally
what
we
do
is,
during
25
the
proposal
process,
we
generally
put
in
a
0046
1
mentor­
protege
clause
in
the
proposal.
So
if
a
business
2
comes
in
with
an
established
program,
then
that
prime
3
contract
gets
some
extra
points.
4
BOB
PAWLOWSKI:
And
that's
the
question
I
was
5
really
asking:
You
come
to
dance
with
a
big
company
and
6
the
first
thing
that
your
board
asks
you
is
"
What
is
in
7
it
for
us?"
Because
it's
clear
what's
in
it
for
them.
8
MR.
SUTTON:
Right.
9
BOB
PAWLOWSKI:
And
who
do
we
talk
to
in
the
10
federal
agencies
to
find
out
what
is
the
step
so
we
can
11
get
the
clause
put
in
the
grant
that
ensures
­­
or
the
12
clause
in
the
contract,
actually?
13
MR.
SUTTON:
Sure.
You
talk
to
me
about
that,
14
talk
to
me
about
that.
And
what's
in
it
for
the
small
15
business?
In
a
true
mentor­
protege
arrangement,
the
16
small
business
learns
from
the
large
business.
They
17
might
provide
assistance
with
bookkeeping,
accounting,
18
technical
expertise,
information
technology.
I
mean,
19
that's
the
whole
purpose
of
it,
for
the
large
business
to
20
take
a
small
business
and
help
bring
them
along
so
the
21
small
business
at
some
point
is
ready
to
compete
on
their
22
own.
23
BOB
PAWLOWSKI:
Thank
you.
24
MS.
MCPEAK:
Any
other
questions?
25
MR.
SUTTON:
You've
been
a
very
good
0047
1
audience.
Thank
you
very
much.
And
make
sure
we
get
2
those
comments
because
we
need
your
input.
Thank
you.
3
(
MEETING
ADJOURNED.)
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0048
1
REPORTER'S
CERTIFICATE
2
3
I,
Carol
C.
Nutter,
CSR,
and
Notary
Public
in
4
and
for
the
State
of
Alaska
do
hereby
certify:
5
That
the
foregoing
proceedings
were
taken
6
before
me
at
the
time
and
place
herein
set
forth;
that
7
proceedings
were
reported
stenographically
by
me
and
8
later
transcribed
under
my
direction
by
computer
9
transcription;
that
the
foregoing
is
a
true
record
of
the
10
proceedings
taken
at
that
time.
11
IN
WITNESS
WHEREOF,
I
have
hereunto
subscribed
12
my
hand
and
affixed
my
seal
this
____
day
of
13
_______________,
2004.
14
15
16
____________________________
CAROL
C.
NUTTER,
17
Certified
Shorthand
Reporter
Notary
Public
for
Alaska
18
19
20
21
My
Commission
Expires:
January
24,
2007
22
23
24
25
