1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
US
ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION
AGENCY
10
PROPOSED
EPA
DBE
RULE
11
PUBLIC
MEETING
12
Chicago,
Illinois
13
January
14,
2004
14
9:
00
a.
m.

15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
Reported
By:
April
T.
Hansen
24
License
No.:
084­
004043
1
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
MS.
BROWN:
Good
morning.
You
know
what,
would
2
you
all
like
to
move
or
come
a
little
bit
closer
so
3
I
can
kind
of
­­
I
mean,
it's
spread
out.
Just
4
kind
of
come,
those
in
the
back
just
kind
of
come
5
and
join
me
up
here.

6
I'm
Jeanette
Brown,
director
of
Small
7
Business
for
EPA.
I'm
glad
to
be
here
to
talk
to
8
you
about
the
rule.
We've
had
two
busy
days,

9
yesterday
was
busy
and
Monday.

10
I
just
want
to
talk
to
you
about
the
11
rule
and
the
program,
proposed
changes,
et
cetera.

12
Thank
you
so
much.
That's
good.

13
Just
a
few
things
I'd
like
to
share
14
with
you
before
we
get
started.
Again,
I'm
15
Jeanette
Brown,
Director
of
Small
Business
for
EPA,

16
and
we
are
out
of
Washington
DC
headquarters
and
we
17
do
welcome
you
here
today.

18
Just
a
couple
of
things
I'd
like
to
19
share
with
you
before
we
get
started.

20
These
proceedings
are
being
recorded,

21
so
that
we
can
take
back
­­
just
in
case
my
memory
22
does
not
last
as
long
as
it
should,
we
will
capture
23
all
of
the
questions
and
concerns
and
take
them
24
back
and
take
them
under
consideration
for
the
2
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
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­
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312)
263­
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1
final
rule
and
the
changes
that
we
need
to
make.

2
We
are
now
on
the
down
slope
because
3
we
have
been
doing
this
since
September,
and
so
we
4
have
one
more
next
week
in
San
Francisco,
a
5
hearing,
and
then
we've
been
invited
to
Alaska
in
6
February.
So
once
we
do
that,
we
will
be
7
complete.
So
we
have
done
a
total
of
­­

8
MS.
PATRICK:
Once
we
are
finished,
we
will
9
have
done
17.

10
MS.
BROWN:
17
meetings
around
the
country,
in
11
Indian
country
as
well
as
other
places
throughout,

12
to
make
sure
that
people
get
the
information.

13
By
all
means,
our
desire
is
that
you
14
all
will
take
this
and
read
it
and
ask
questions,

15
submit
questions.
Ask
questions
of
us
here
today.

16
It
was
indicated
that
we
have
all
the
answers.
I
17
may
not,
and
I'm
not
afraid
to
say
that.
And
if
I
18
don't
have
an
answer,
I
will
tell
you
that
and
I'll
19
tell
you
what
we
will
try
to
do
to
get
an
answer
if
20
that's
necessary.

21
We
may
not
be
able
to
answer
all
of
22
your
questions
as
we
are
formulating
policy.
This
23
is
a
policy­
making
process
and
we
think
we
had
24
thought
of
everything,
but
as
we've
gone
around
3
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
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312)
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1
country
we
recognize
and
understand
there
may
have
2
been
some
things
that
we
did
not
think
of
that
3
needs
to
be
included.
And
we
will
go
through
some
4
of
those
things
that
have
come
to
our
attention
as
5
we've
gone
around
the
country.
Things
that
need
to
6
be
further
defined,
that
kind
of
thing.
So
we
will
7
share
that
with
you.

8
Yes,
sir.

9
MEMBER
OF
THE
AUDIENCE:
Those
folders
are
all
10
in
the
front?

11
MS.
BROWN:
Sharon,
where
are
these
folders?

12
Out
front
on
the
front
table?
Can
we
bring
some
in
13
because
everyone
might
not
have
picked
some
up.

14
Just
bring
about
five
in
case
everybody
did
not
get
15
one.

16
So
we
need
to
speak
into
the
mic
so
17
that
she
can
capture
what
it
is
that
we're
saying.

18
And
if
when
you
have
a
question,
I'm
asking
that
19
you
tell
us
who
you
are
and
who
you
represent,
and
20
ask
your
question.
I
need
to
speak
into
the
mic,

21
Kimberly
needs
to
speak
into
the
mic,
and
I
ask
22
that
you
all
do
that
as
well.
So
that's
why
we
23
have
a
mic
here.
And
if
we
need
to
just
pass
it
24
around,
we
can
do
that,
too,
if
you
don't
want
to
4
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
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312)
263­
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1
get
up.
We
will
have
Sharon
or
somebody
work
the
2
room,
she'd
be
our
point
for
the
day,
so
that
we
3
can
make
sure
that
we
hear
the
concerns
that
you
4
all
may
have
and
address
the
rule
as
we
see
it
and
5
how
we
interpret
it
in
terms
of
how
it's
going
to
6
impact
you.

7
We
have
been
working
under
a
contract
8
with
the
National
Center
out
of
Arizona
who
has
9
been
one
of
our
contractors
in
helping
us
put
on
10
the
conference
in
the
Tribal
community,
and
they
11
were
the
people
who
have
been
mailing
you,
faxing
12
you
and
getting
the
information
out
to
you
13
hopefully,
and
they
are
out
front.
They
will
be
in
14
here
probably
shortly
so
I
can
introduce
them,

15
because
I
think
they
also
have
an
evaluation
sheet
16
that
they
probably
would
like
for
you
to
fill
out
17
at
the
end
of
the
meeting.

18
With
me
today
is
Kimberly
Patrick
who
19
is
my
attorney
advisor,
and
she
has
been
working
on
20
the
program
now
for
two
and
a
half
years.
She
is
21
my
point
of
contact
for
the
program
on
Tribal
22
issues
along
with
other
things
now.

23
EPA
just
went
through
massive
buyout
24
and
a
lot
of
people
retired
as
of
January
2nd,
so
I
5
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
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(
312)
263­
0052
1
lost
three
people.
My
senior
attorney
advisor,

2
Mark
Gordon,
and
then
a
couple
of
others.
Merna
3
Moonie,
who
some
of
you
may
very
well
know,
who
is
4
from
a
Tribal
community.
She's
from
the
Blackfoot
5
Tribe.
She
was
working
in
our
office.
She
6
retired.
And
then
I
have
one
other
person
who
7
retired,
Elaine
Weiss
Wittman,
who
had
been
around
8
for
a
number
of
years.
So
as
small
as
we
were,
we
9
are
even
smaller
today,
so
we
are
having
to
make
10
some
adjustments
to
accommodate
these
retirements.

11
So
at
this
time
I
would
like
to
just
12
have
a
feel
for
who
you
all
are.
I
got
a
chance
to
13
meet
some
of
you
when
you
came
in,
but
it's
good
14
for
me
to
get
a
feel
for
who
is
in
the
audience.

15
So
if
you
don't
mind,
if
you
can
just
tell
me
your
16
name
and
the
organization
you
represent,
and
it
17
would
be
good
to
know
in
what
capacity
you
work
18
with
the
Tribe
so
I
have
a
better
understanding
in
19
terms
of
who
you
all
are.

20
So
not
everybody
at
once,
the
mic
is
21
open
and
available
to
you.
If
you
can
just
do
that
22
I
would
appreciate
it.

23
MR.
HANSON:
My
name
is
Ron
Hanson,
I'm
with
24
Four
Winds
Insurance
Agency
out
of
Black
River
6
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
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312)
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1
Falls,
Wisconsin.
We
are
a
wholly­
owned
insurance
2
agency
of
the
Hochunk
Nation.
My
title
is
risk
3
manager,
and
my
reason
for
being
here
is
I
have
4
been
assigned
the
project
of
expanding
the
5
knowledge
of
our
availability
and
what
we
offer
to
6
other
Tribes
throughout
the
country.

7
MR.
HOFFMAN:
Hi,
I'm
Brett
Hoffman
with
the
8
property
management
department
for
the
Menominee
9
tribe
of
Wisconsin.

10
MR.
SCHUETTPELZ:
I'm
Gary
Schuettpelz,
I'm
11
director
of
environment
services
for
the
Menomonee
12
Tribe
and
we
do
get
a
lot
of
Federal
grants.

13
MR.
VALLEJO:
My
name
is
Angelo
Vallejo,
out
of
14
Kansas.
I
have
a
company
that's
called
Pathway
15
Development,
LLC,
and
I'm
here
networking.

16
MS.
LUTTENTON:
My
name
is
Jesse
Luttenton,
I'm
17
the
community
economic
developer
for
the
Keeweenaw
18
Bay
Indian
Community,
and
we
have
a
lot
of
EPA
19
grants.

20
MR.
BELL:
My
name
is
Bryan
Bell,
I'm
with
21
Innovation
Technical
Solutions
of
Kentucky,
and
the
22
Cherokee
Tribe.
It's
a
Native
American­
owned
23
records
management
company.
24
MS.
BROWN:
You're
8(
a)?

7
McCORKLE
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1
MR.
BELL:
8(
a),
yes.

2
MS.
POLSKI:
I'm
Sara
Polski,
and
I'm
the
3
environment
health
specialist
for
the
Bois
Forte
4
Corporation
in
Net
Lake,
Minnesota.

5
MR.
SHOWERS:
My
name
is
Michael
E.
Showers,

6
with
a
company
called
Arrow
Head
in
Oshkosh
7
incorporated,
I'm
here
networking.

8
MS.
BROWN:
You're
8(
a),
too?

9
MR.
SHOWERS:
I'm
in
the
process
of
getting
10
8(
a)
certified.

11
MS.
BROWN:
What
about
you,
sir?

12
MR.
HOFFMAN:
I'm
also
in
the
process.
I
would
13
like
to
find
out
about
that.

14
MS.
ROSE:
My
name
is
Jackie
Rose
from
the
Bad
15
River
Tribe.

16
MS.
PETERSON:
Terry
Peterson,
vice­
chairman
of
17
Upper
Sioux,
here
to
learn
and
listen.

18
MS.
BROWN:
Thank
you.

19
MS.
STEVENS:
Good
morning.
I'm
Margery
20
Stevens,
I'm
with
the
Oneida
Nation
of
Wisconsin.

21
I'm
the
Indian
reference
director
there,
and
I
22
certify
qualified
Indian
trades
workers
and
23
Indian­
owned
businesses,
and
I'm
here
for
24
networking
and
learning
as
well.
Thank
you.

8
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
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312)
263­
0052
1
MS.
BROWN:
Thank
you.
I
guess
the
others
are
2
some
EPA
folk,
or
are
we?

3
MS.
THOMPSON:
I'm
Pat
Thompson,
I'm
the
grant
4
manager
here
in
Region
5,
Chicago.

5
MS.
WEBSTER:
I'm
Barbara
Webster,
I'm
with
the
6
office
of
regional
counsel
here
in
Chicago.
I'm
7
one
of
two
attorneys
that
work
on
Tribal
matters
8
consistently.

9
MEMBER
OF
PUBLIC:
I'm
a
survivor
of
Indian
10
politics,
a
chairman
for
23
years
in
the
Oneida
11
Nation
in
Wisconsin,
enjoying
life.

12
MS.
WEINER:
Hi,
my
name
is
Darlene
Weiner,
I'm
13
the
chairman
and
also
the
acquisition
assistance
14
branch,
and
if
you
are
a
business,
I
would
like
to
15
talk
to
you
some
time
before
you
leave
today.

16
Thank
you.

17
MS.
BROWN:
Okay,
very
good.
Thank
you.

18
Does
everyone
have
a
copy
of
­­
oh,

19
one
more.

20
MS.
WARD:
My
name
is
Alicia
Ward
and
I'm
a
21
team
leader
in
the
branch
management
section,
and
22
we're
award
branch
to
our
Tribe
offices
here.

23
MS.
BROWN:
Wonderful.

24
Someone
was
asking
for
a
card.
We
do
9
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
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­
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312)
263­
0052
1
have
some,
so
we
will
make
these
available
for
you
2
as
well.

3
In
your
packet
you
should
have
a
4
summary
of
the
proposed
rule,
and
we've
tried
to
5
put
that
in
layman's
terms
as
best
possible.
Also
6
in
the
packet
you
have
the
Federal
Register
7
Notice.
We
are
not
going
to
go
through
the
Notice
8
in
its
entirety.
We'll
probably
be
speaking
from
9
the
key
elements
of
the
rule.

10
And
then
if
you
get
a
chance
­­
has
11
everyone
had
a
chance
to
read
through
it?
No?

12
Okay.
Yes?
Okay.

13
I
would
ask
that
you
all
really
take
14
the
time
to
read
through
this,
because
this
will
15
impact
you
and
we
need
to
hear
from
you.
With
all
16
of
the
meetings
that
we're
having,
we're
17
encouraging
all
of
the
grantees
for
EPA
to
take
a
18
look
at
what
this
means,
and
we
need
to
know
how
19
you
feel
this
impacts
you
and
what
changes,
if
any,

20
we
need
to
make
as
a
result
of
what
we've
written.
21
So
I
would
strongly
encourage
you
to
read
through
22
it.

23
It
is
not
what
I
would
call
easy
24
reading,
even
with
my
bifocals
sometimes
is
a
10
McCORKLE
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REPORTERS,
INC.
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0052
1
little
bit
small,
but
that's
the
format
that
they
2
have
prescribed
for
us
to
follow.
So
what
we've
3
tried
to
do
is
to
go
through
and
highlight
the
key
4
elements
of
the
rule
and
the
impact
as
we
see
it.

5
So
as
we
begin
to
go
through
that,
at
6
any
time
if
you
have
a
question,
please
feel
free
7
to
stop
us
to
ask
your
question.
Again,
be
8
reminded
to
tell
us
who
you
are
and
the
9
organization
that
you
represent
so
she
can
capture
10
that
so
we
won't
miss
that.

11
We
will
go
­­
and
I'm
not
going
to
12
read
it
verbatim.
That's
one
thing
we
don't
like
13
to
do.
But
we
will
go
through
it
and
highlight
the
14
major
elements
of
the
proposed
rule.
Things
that
15
we
have
proposed
to
do,
in
part.
Major
changes,

16
include
changing
the
name.

17
Certification
is
a
new
requirement
18
for
businesses.
The
other
piece
is
size
standard
19
or
the
ownership
percentage
or
how
much.
20
Submissions
of
fair
share
goals.
Contract
21
administration
provisions
for
good
faith
efforts.

22
We
also
talk
about
determining
fair
share
goals.

23
And
we
go
into
the
exemptions,
and
24
these
exemptions
will
most
likely
impact
a
lot
of
11
McCORKLE
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0052
1
the
tribes.
Other
exemptions
in
the
areas
Tribal
2
speak
specifically
to
you
all
in
the
rule
in
terms
3
of
some
changes
that
you
need
to
be
made
aware
of.

4
Record
keeping
and
recording,
and
then
the
waivers
5
and
then
we
will
go
into
the
next
steps.

6
Let
me
say
this
about
record
keeping
and
7
recording,
and
I
will
give
you
a
little
update
of
8
how
we
got
to
this
point
and
how
we
go
to
the
9
rule­
making
process.

10
Record
keeping
and
recording
is
11
critical.
I
probably
need
to
say
that
again.

12
Record
keeping
and
recording
is
critical.
As
a
13
result
of
the
Supreme
Court
decision,
the
Adarand
14
decision
that
resulted
in
or
as
a
result
of
a
case
15
out
of
Denver,
Colorado,
in
terms
of
how
the
State
16
Government
was
running
its
contracting
program,
we
17
got
the
Adarand
decision.
And
this
ultimately
18
changed
and
altered
how
the
Federal
Government
will
19
do
business
in
government
contracting
across
the
20
board,
which
also
effects
the
grants.

21
From
our
perspective
we
don't
see
22
this
as
an
affirmative
action
program,
we
see
this
23
as
an
outreach
program.
One
that
would
be
24
inclusive
of
everybody;
minorities,
women,
tribes,

12
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
trust
territories;
allowing
people
to
have
an
2
opportunity,
an
ample
opportunity
to
participate
in
3
the
Federal
Government
Federal
assistance
process.

4
You
may
say
well,
you're
giving
us
5
the
money
so
what
does
that
have
to
do
with
you
6
all?
The
money
comes
with
terms
and
conditions
7
that
have
to
be
complied
with.

8
Any
grant
recipient
receiving
a
grant
9
from
EPA
must
comply
with
the
terms
and
conditions
10
identified
in
the
grant.
As
a
part
of
that,
in
11
EPA's
grants
we
have
the
MBE/
WBE
fair
share
12
clause.

13
How
many
of
you
are
familiar
with
14
that
clause?
Okay.

15
That
clause
says,
basically,
and
the
16
way
we
run
our
program,
if
as
a
grantee
you
17
decide
­­
a
key
word
here
is
you
decide,
you
don't
18
have
to
­­
but
should
you
decide
to
go
out
and
buy
19
anything
in
one
of
four
categories;
equipment,

20
construction,
services
or
supplies;
our
program
21
kicks
in.

22
If
you
decide
to
use
your
grant
to
23
pay
for
salaries
for
work
being
done
on
your
24
reservation
to
do
the
work
for
your
grant,
our
13
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
program
doesn't
kick
in.
But
the
minute
you
go
out
2
and
buy
something,
procure,
our
program
kicks
in.

3
And
it
says
that
you
have
to
follow
4
the
good
faith
efforts
that
have
been
identified
in
5
the
grant.
This
is
not
an
option,
it's
always
been
6
in
the
grants.
And
all
of
our
grantees
need
to
7
adhere
to
that,
and
you
also
need
to
follow
good
8
faith
efforts
in
reporting.

9
And
in
part,
the
Agency
has
not
been
10
consistent
in
how
we
carried
that
out.
That
is
11
part
of
what
happened
when
the
Department
of
12
Justice
came
in
and
did
a
review
of
our
program
and
13
they've
told
us
that
we
have
to
do
a
better
job
14
across
the
board.
And
in
particular
now
with
the
15
Adarand
decision,
which
is
what
we
have
to
adhere
16
to.
17
As
a
grand
recipient
the
other
thing
18
you
need
to
recognize
and
understand,
because
19
programs
like
this
­­
and
I
said
earlier
that
we
20
don't
consider
this
to
be
an
affirmative
action
21
program
­­
but
when
you
start
talking
about
race
22
and
gender
and
those
kinds
of
things,
in
a
lot
of
23
places
they
see
that
as
affirmative
action.
We
24
don't,
but
they
do.

14
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
So
when
you
are
a
recipient
of
these
2
grants
and
you
go
out
and
spend
this
money,
if
3
there
is
a
challenge
on
how
you
spend
it,
you
will
4
have
to
defend
what
you
did.
We
will
have
to
5
defend
what
we
have
done,
but
you
as
a
grantee
will
6
have
to
defend
how
you're
deciding
to
spend
the
7
money.

8
We
are
seeing
all
across
the
country
9
programs
like
this
being
challenged.
So
it
is
in
10
all
of
our
best
interests
to
document
our
files
so
11
that
we
are
consistent
and
we
know
what
it
is
that
12
we've
done.
Establish
processes
and
procedures
so
13
that
everybody
knows
the
ground
rules
that
we're
14
playing
with.

15
Yesterday
we
met
with
the
States
and
16
some
other
grantees,
some
colleges
and
universities
17
were
here
as
well
as
other
businesses.
Water
18
departments,
DEQs
or
DRs,
those
people
were
here
19
and
they
heard
and
we
told
them
the
same
thing.
As
20
a
grant
recipient,
these
are
things
that
must
21
happen.

22
So
any
questions
before
I
go
any
23
further?

24
Yes,
ma'am.

15
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
MS.
LUTTENTON:
Jesse
Luttenton
from
the
Office
2
of
Planning
and
Development
at
Q10A.

3
Under
the
record
keeping
and
4
recording
it
has
those
four
points
in
your
summary,

5
and
the
first
one
refers
to
the
loans
­­
the
first
6
ones
refers
to
grants
and
then
the
next
three
7
points
refer
only
to
loans.
But
I'm
assuming
that
8
all
of
them
are
loan
and/
or
grant
is
what
you're
9
talking
about
here?

10
MS.
PATRICK:
What
are
you
reading
from?

11
MS.
LUTTENTON:
Well,
I
didn't
get
a
packet
12
today
and
I
think
it
was
attached
to
the
summary
13
that
was
attached
to
the
Federal
Register,
but
I
14
think
it's
the
same
one
as
the
one
that's
in
this
15
newsletter.

16
But
under
that
section
for
record
17
keeping
and
recording,
the
first
point
addresses
18
specifically
grants,
and
then
the
next
three
points
19
address
loans.
But
I'm
assuming
it's
an
20
interchangeable
thing?

21
MS.
PATRICK:
Pretty
much.
We
just
wanted
to
22
make
sure
it
applies
to
both
the
grants
and
the
23
loans,
so
we've
broke
it
out.

24
MS.
POLSKI:
And
that's
GAP
and/
or
specifically
16
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
grant
programs?

2
MS.
PATRICK:
Exactly.

3
MR.
VALLEJO:
Angelo
Vallejo,
Pathway
4
Development.

5
Would
that
include
research?
How
6
would
that
be
handled?

7
MS.
PATRICK:
Grants
for
research?

8
MR.
VALLEJO:
Yes.

9
MS.
PATRICK:
With
that
research
grant,
if
it's
10
not
just
used
for
salary
and
with
the
research
11
grants
they
go
out
and
purchase
lab
equipment,

12
then,
yes,
the
program
kicks
in
and
it
would
apply.

13
MR.
VALLEJO:
Research
and
development.
14
MS.
PATRICK:
Right.
No
matter
what
kind
of
15
grant
you
have
or
what
the
purpose
of
it
is,
if
you
16
go
out
and
buy
anything
using
that
grant
money,

17
then
our
program
kicks
in
and
these
rules
apply.

18
MS.
BROWN:
Now
we
will
go
through
these
key
19
elements
in
a
little
more
detail,
and
if
you
have
20
any
questions,
please
feel
free
to
stop
me.

21
Kimberly.

22
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

23
Before
we
get
started,
first
I'd
like
24
to
make
a
little
bit
of
a
disclaimer
because
we
17
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
have
run
into
other
issues
in
other
regions
with
2
this.

3
I
want
to
be
very
clear
that
our
4
office
does
not
consider
this
particular
session
5
consultation.
We
are
very
much
aware
of
what
6
consultation
means,
or
we
are
becoming
aware
of
7
what
it
means
through
the
process
of
going
through
8
this.
And
we
recognize
this
is
not
consultation
9
and
we
are
not
doing
it
as
such.

10
This
is
an
opportunity
for
you
all
to
11
make
comments
and
let
us
know
what
you
think
about
12
this
and
to
weigh
in
on
the
process
of
shaping
this
13
rule.
I
just
want
to
make
sure
we
are
clear
on
14
that
as
a
starting
point,
okay.

15
The
first
major
change
that
we
are
16
dealing
with
is
we
are
changing
the
name
of
the
17
program.
Many
of
you
all
who
are
familiar
may
know
18
the
program
as
the
DBE
program
or
the
MBE/
WBE
19
program.
We
are
changing
the
name
to
the
DBE
20
program,
which
is
the
Disadvantaged
Business
21
Enterprise
program.

22
We
are
changing
the
name
largely
in
23
part
because
of
the
Adarand
case,
the
meaning
of
24
DBE
has
become
much
more
than
just
minorities
and
18
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
women.
It's
possible
for
someone
who
is
a
2
non­
minority
to
be
included
in
that
category,
so
we
3
have
to
have
a
name
that
is
inclusive
of
that.

4
But
one
of
our
primary
reasons
of
5
doing
it
was
to
be
consistent,
because
DOT
uses
the
6
name
DBE
with
their
program,
and
their
program
is
7
much
larger
and
widely­
recognized.
So
we
want
to
8
have
some
continuity
between
us
and
the
rest
of
the
9
government
who
is
using
that
name
instead
of
going
10
with
MBE
or
WBE.

11
The
next
primary
change,
dealing
with
12
certification.
Those
of
you
who
are
out
there
who
13
are
business
owners,
this
portion
is
very
important
14
to
you.

15
If
you
are
in
a
position
to
do
work
16
under
or
do
work
under
a
EPA
grant,
which
means
if
17
we
give
a
grant
to
the
Tribe
to
do,
let's
say
put
18
in
a
water
treatment
facility
on
the
reservation,

19
and
they
go
out
and
contract
with
companies
to
come
20
and
do
the
construction
and
do
some
of
the
21
research,
whatever,
to
do
it,
as
a
contractor
you
22
would
need
to
be
certified
to
do
that
work
as
DBEs
23
with
EPA
do
that
work.
So
this
section
talks
about
24
how
the
certification
is
set
up
and
how
we
are
19
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
going
to
approach
that.

2
First
of
all,
EPA
has
no
desire
to
go
3
full
sale
into
the
certification
business.
That's
4
a
lot
of
work
for
us
internally,
and
we
don't
want
5
to
duplicate
work
that's
already
being
done.

6
So
our
approach
is
going
to
be
if
an
7
entity
has
an
SBA
certification
and
if
an
entity
8
had
DOT
certification
and
is
a
US
citizen,
we
will
9
accept
those
certifications
and
in
turn
give
you
an
10
EPA
certification,
so
there
will
be
less
process.
11
What
the
person
would
have
to
do
is
12
show
us
your
8(
a)
or
whatever
certification
you
13
have
from
SBA
or
from
DOT,
with
proof
of
14
citizenship,
and
we
will
in
turn
certify
you
with
15
EPA
without
anything
else.

16
We
will
also
accept
certification
17
from
States
and
also
Tribal
certification,
as
long
18
as
the
criteria
that
are
used
are
the
same
as
those
19
that
are
set
up
by
the
EPA.

20
So
the
lady
here
mentioned
that
you
21
work
with
certifying
Tribal
businesses.
As
long
as
22
the
standards
you
use
for
certifying
them
in
terms
23
of
percentage
of
ownership
and
control
is
the
same
24
as
our
standard,
or
maybe
even
greater
than
our
20
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
standard,
we
would
accept
that
certification
as
2
long
as
the
criteria
are
the
same.

3
We
really
don't
want
to
duplicate
4
work
and
we
know
certification
processes
are
5
difficult
and
we
know
they
are
long.
And
once
you
6
get
one,
I
want
you
to
make
sure
what
you
have
is
7
you
get
all
the
bang
for
your
buck
as
you
can
8
possibly
get
out
of
it
without
having
to
go
through
9
another
process.
10
MR.
HOFFMAN:
Hi,
I'm
Brett
Hoffman
with
the
11
Menominee
Indian
Tribe
in
Wisconsin.

12
A
question
on
that
certification.

13
For
us
to
certify,
say,
our
businesses
that
are
14
owned
by
Tribal
members,
are
they
going
to
be
15
required
to
be
certified
in
order
to
get
16
recognition
or
for
EPA
to
report
on
them
as
being
a
17
minority
business?

18
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes,
they
would.

19
MS.
BROWN:
Yes.

20
MR.
HOFFMAN:
And
for
us
to
certify
them,
what
21
exactly
is
the
format
for
us
to
do
that?
Because
22
that
might
actually
hinder
some
of
our
businesses
23
who
do
work
with
us
if
they're
going
to
need
to
be
24
certified
before
we
can
commit
to
helping
them.

21
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
MS.
PATRICK:
If
your
tribe
has
a
process
in
2
place
that
does
certify
their
own
Tribally­
owned
3
businesses,
then
if
the
standards
are
the
same
as
4
ours,
we
can
accept
that
Tribal
certification.

5
The
EPA
is
also
certifying
businesses
6
as
well,
because
we
understand
that
not
everybody
7
can
get
certified
as
all
these
different
entities
8
and
names.
So
if
that
is
the
case,
EPA
is
in
a
9
position
to
certify
businesses
itself.

10
MR.
HOFFMAN:
We
do
have
the
51
percent
11
ownership,
things
like
that,
but
it's
not
a
12
certification
for
them,
it's
just
for
award
of
13
points
for
preference
points.

14
So
we
are
going
to
have
to
establish
15
a
certification,
but
I
didn't
know
how
we
could
go
16
about
doing
that
for
these
businesses
to
make
sure
17
it's
not
actually
hindering
them
doing
business
18
with
us
at
this
point.

19
MS.
PATRICK:
You
don't
have
to.
We're
not
20
telling
Tribes
to
go
out
and
you
must
develop
21
certification
programs.
If
what
is
working
for
22
your
Tribe
internally
is
what
is
working
for
you
23
now,
and
you
don't
see
a
need
to
hold
a
24
certification,
then
that's
your
choice.
It's
22
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
totally
up
to
you.

2
But
we're
saying
if
indeed
you
don't
3
have
a
certification
program
and
you
have
an
entity
4
that
needs
to
be
certified,
they
can
come
to
the
5
EPA
to
continue
doing
that
type
of
work.

6
Now,
if
you're
asking
my
personal
7
opinion,
it
would
be
a
great
idea
if
your
Tribe
8
were
to
go
ahead
and
set
up
a
certification
9
program.
It
sounds
as
though
you
have
the
criteria
10
in
place
already
to
award
the
point
preferences.

11
It
would
only
be
a
natural
next
step
to
go
ahead
12
and
actually
do
the
certification.
And
I
think
it
13
would
require
less
work
for
you
all
as
a
Tribe
to
14
know
after
that,
we've
already
certified
these
15
people,
so
we
don't
have
to
do
the
point
16
preferences
each
time.
That's
just
my
personal
17
little
aside
there.
But
what
you
decide
to
do
as
a
18
Tribe
is
completely
up
to
you.

19
MR.
HOFFMAN:
Thank
you
very
much.

20
MR.
SHOWERS:
Michael
Showers,
Arrow
Electric.

21
Who
would
make
that
determination
22
between
if
a
Tribe's
certification
is
appropriate
23
enough
for
the
EPA
to
use?

24
MS.
PATRICK:
We
would.
The
standards
we
use
23
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
for
certification
are
very
clearly
laid
out
in
our
2
Rules.
As
you
look
at
them,
they're
certainly
the
3
same
as
SBA's,
51
percent
ownership
and
control.

4
And
also
in
our
Agency,
because
of
the
5
specifications
in
our
statute,
we
would
also
have
6
to
certify,
accept
certification
if
your
standard
7
were
51
percent
owned
or
controlled.
So
it
would
8
be
both.

9
The
standards
are
very
well
laid
out
10
in
the
rule,
so
that
would
be
our
measure.
If
they
11
were
the
same
as
what
we
have
in
there,
we
would
12
accept
it.

13
MR.
SHOWERS:
Thank
you
very
much.

14
MS.
PATRICK:
You're
quite
welcome.

15
Okay,
moving
on.
I
talked
about
the
16
fact
that
there
were
entities
that
we
knew
that
you
17
would
have
to
certify
because
they're
not
really
18
certified
anyplace
else.
Not
anyplace
else,
but
19
it's
limited.

20
One
of
those
categories
is
21
women­
owned
business.
The
EPA
will
certify
22
women­
owned
businesses.
Currently
the
SBA
does
not
23
certify
women­
owned
businesses,
DOT
does.
And
24
because
we
know
that
is
the
case,
there
is
a
little
24
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
bit
of
a
gap
there.
So
we
know
we're
not
going
to
2
find
many
women­
owned
businesses
certified
as
such
3
with
the
SBA,
along
with
the
DOT
one,
with
the
4
citizenship
requirement
met.
So
the
EPA
will
be
5
certifying
that
universe
of
businesses.
6
We
will
also
be
certifying
disabled
7
American­
owned
businesses.
We
also
will
be
8
certifying
entities
where
the
businesses
are
owned
9
or
controlled,
where
the
entity
is
owned
or
10
controlled
by
socially
and
economically
11
disadvantaged
individuals,
which
makes
us
very
12
unique.
I
mentioned
that
previously
before.

13
EPA
statutes
is
set
up
rather
14
differently,
shall
we
say.
We
have
one
statute,

15
which
is
our
8
percent
statute,
which
requires
16
ownership
or
control,
and
then
in
our
10
percent
17
statute
it
requires
ownership
and
control.

18
We
can't
go
back
and
change
the
19
statute,
so
we
have
to
open
up
our
certification
to
20
certify
entities
from
both
of
those
categories,

21
which
makes
us
very
unique.
Because
SBA
nor
DOT,

22
nor
anybody
else
I
know,
really
certifies
this
and
23
says
with
ownership
or
control,
they
require
both.

24
So
EPA
would
have
to
certify
both
of
those
25
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
entities.

2
Let's
see.
It's
very
important
that
3
you
know
that
we
have
a
personal
net
worth
4
requirement.
Your
net
worth
for
eligibility
to
be
5
certified
will
have
to
be
$
750,000
or
less.
That
6
net
worth
is
calculated,
we
exclude
your
personal
7
interest
in
the
business,
and
we
also
exclude
your
8
personal
residence
from
the
calculation
of
that
net
9
worth
amount.
Okay.

10
The
next
section
on
page
four
is
good
11
faith
efforts.
The
six
steps
that
are
in
place
to
12
insure
that
minorities
and
women
of
businesses
are
13
included
in
the
process
of
procurement
under
EPA
14
grants.

15
Heretofore,
in
one
part
of
the
Reg
it
16
was
called
the
six
affirmative
steps
and
in
others
17
it
was
called
the
six
positive
efforts.
We
have
18
combined
them,
since
they
were
both
saying
the
same
19
thing,
and
now
we
are
the
six
good
faith
efforts
20
and
that
is
what
we're
going
to
be
calling
them
21
now.

22
But
the
substance
of
them
has
not
23
changed,
the
requirements
in
them
has
not
changed.

24
They
are
still
requiring
you
to
go
out
and
make
26
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
sure
that
minority
women
are
included
in
your
2
competitive
bidding
processes
under
EPA
grant.

3
MS.
BROWN:
And
this
is
something
that
we
4
cannot
waive.
This
is
a
requirement
that
has
been
5
in
existence
and
will
continue
to
be.
I
can't
6
waive
it,
the
head
of
grants
can't
waive
it.
This
7
is
something
that
exists
in
our
grant.

8
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes,
ma'am.

9
MS.
BROWN:
Name
again?

10
THE
WITNESS:
Margery
Stevens
with
the
Oneida
11
Nation,
Wisconsin.

12
And
the
question
I
have
is
good
faith
13
efforts,
how
does
that
effect
contractors?
Is
14
there
a
legal
stipulation
there
for
contractors,

15
that
they
have
to
provide
good
faith
effort
as
16
well?

17
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes.
The
way
the
terms
and
18
conditions
are
set
up
in
the
grant,
which
are
19
things
that
they
are
required
to
do,
this
is
good
20
faith
efforts
trickle
down
to
the
efforts
of
your
21
prime
contractors.

22
So
just
as
you
would
apply
the
good
23
faith
efforts
in
finding
a
prime,
if
your
prime
24
decides
to
subcontract,
they
also
have
to
carry
out
27
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
those
same
efforts
in
finding
their
2
subcontractors.
And
that
is
all
included
in
the
3
terms
and
conditions
of
grant.
So
it
trickles
down
4
to
that
level.

5
MS.
SEVENS:
Thank
you.

6
MR.
HOFFMAN:
Hi,
Brett
Hoffman
with
the
7
Menominee
Tribe
in
Wisconsin.
I
have
a
couple
8
questions
on
that.

9
One
is
for
the
contractors,
there
is
10
a
clause
or
a
stipulation
in
there
that
if
a
11
subcontractor
fails
to
complete
his
certification
12
of
the
work
under
subcontract,
that
the
primary
13
contractor
should
take
these
steps
again
to
14
complete
the
job,
basically.

15
MS.
BROWN:
That's
correct.

16
MR.
HOFFMAN:
That's
a
good
idea,
and
I'm
not
17
against
that
in
itself.
But
in
reality,
that
could
18
create
a
big
problem
with
completing
a
project
on
19
time.
If
they
have
to
go
back,
go
through
a
number
20
of
steps
when
they
are
in
the
middle
of
the
project
21
and
for
some
reason
a
contractor
fails.
Say
we
22
have
half
a
building
up
and
we
have
other
23
subcontractors
waiting
for
this
part
of
the
work
to
24
get
done,
if
they
have
to
go
back
and
start
all
28
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
over
to
secure
someone
to
finish
one
section
before
2
anything
else
can
go
on,
we
will
end
up
losing
a
3
lot
of
funds
or
a
lot
of
money
in
those
delays,

4
whether
it's
mobilization
costs
or
whatever.

5
And
I'd
just
like
you
to
consider
an
6
alternative
to
that,
if
there
is
emergency
waivers
7
to
that
under
construction
projects.

8
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

9
MR.
HOFFMAN:
And
then
I
have
more.
I'm
kind
10
of
like
that
guy
yesterday.

11
MS.
PATRICK:
Lance
from
Detroit.

12
MR.
HOFFMAN:
The
other
question
on
the
13
supplies
end
of
purchasing
under
these
good
faith
14
efforts.
We
have
a
central
supply
that
we
purchase
15
supplies
for
all
the
Tribe's
programs,
and
EPA
or
16
the
environment
department
is
just
one
of
those
17
many
programs.

18
We
buy
supplies
through
Corporate
19
Express
mainly.
They
have
GSA
contracts
on
a
20
number
of
items.
We
do
on
a
number
of
other
21
purchases
under
GSA
contract.

22
My
question
is
is
GSA
contract
23
purchasing
acceptable
as
far
as
this
good
faith
24
effort
to
have
already
followed
the
good
faith
29
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
effort
since
it's
already
government
contract
2
rating?

3
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
a
good
question.
My
4
immediate
answer
would
be
probably
not.
Unless
5
there
was
some
indication
from
the
GSA
Schedule
6
that
either
working
with
an
entity
that
would
be
a
7
DBE
or
someone,
if
you
can
find
out
if
it's
at
a
8
firm
that
you're
actually
getting
the
goods
from
on
9
a
GSA
Schedule,
if
there
was
some
way
to
know
the
10
source
of
that
and
whether
or
not
it
would
count,

11
that
is
the
only
way
we
could
substantiate
what
was
12
going
on
with
that.
But
my
initial
answer
would
13
probably
be
not,
it
wouldn't
count
towards
the
14
goal.

15
In
terms
of
good
faith
efforts,
good
16
faith
efforts
means
if
you
chose
to
use
a
17
competitive
bidding
process,
you're
going
to
go
out
18
and
make
sure
you're
getting
information
from
a
19
number
of
sources
and
you're
going
to
actually
go
20
out
and
seek
to
include
minority­
owned
businesses
21
in
your
process.

22
Now,
if
you're
procurement
processes,

23
say
you
have
to
go
to
the
GSA
Schedule
to
get
those
24
things,
that
is
your
process,
and
we
can't
tell
you
30
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
to
change
your
process
if
that
is
what
you
chose
to
2
use.

3
However,
if
it's
a
situation
where
4
you're
purchasing
something
that
you
don't
have
5
that's
stipulated
to
use
the
GSA
Schedule,
then
we
6
would
expect
that
you
go
through
good
faith
efforts
7
and
be
open
and
inclusive
in
your
proffer,
if
you
8
decide
to
do
it
competitive.

9
MS.
BROWN:
Your
question
is
not
unique
to
the
10
Tribes.
The
States
are
in
a
lot
of
situations
11
where
they
go
through
their
GSA
at
the
State
level
12
to
do
the
same
thing.
When
and
if,
perhaps,
your
13
Tribe
is
one
of
the
Tribes
that
would
have
to
14
initiate
a
fair
share
goal,
that
is
something
that
15
you
also
will
have
to
take
a
look
at
in
terms
of
16
how
you
calculate
what
that
is
when
you
start
to
17
look
at
where
you
go
to
buy.
And
we
can
talk
about
18
that
in
a
little
bit
more
detail.

19
MR.
HOFFMAN:
Thank
you
very
much.

20
MS.
BROWN:
Did
you
have
another
question?

21
MR.
HOFFMAN:
Well,
actually
I
did,
but
I
think
22
you
answered
it
for
me
in
the
middle
of
your
23
explanation
for
my
other
one.
Thank
you.

24
MR.
SCHUETTPELZ:
Gary
Shuettpelz
with
the
31
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
Menominee
Tribe.

2
What
if
our
prime
contractor
is
3
another
Federal
agency,
we
get
money
from
EPA
and
4
we
subcontract
to
do
specific
work
like
a
Federal
5
agency
like
USGS,
where
do
these
rules
fall
in
6
under
there?
And
frequently
USGS
will
cost
share
7
so
it
reduces
the
overall
cost
of
the
grants.

8
So
do
we
still
have
to
abide
by
the
9
DBE
situation
and
they
have
to
abide
by
our
good
10
faith
efforts?

11
MS.
PATRICK:
The
way
it
would
work
is
once
you
12
get
the
grant
monies,
whatever
your
procurement
13
process
is
that's
in
place,
let's
say
you
get
ready
14
to
do
whatever
you're
doing,
you
do
a
competitive
15
bid
process,
they
are
one
of
the
people
that
bid
on
16
the
project
and
you
have
it
open
to
competitive
17
bidding,
the
good
faith
efforts
only
say
when
in
18
your
process,
make
sure
you
solicit
and
try
to
get
19
small,
minority­
owned,
women
businesses.

20
Now,
let's
say
during
that
process
21
you
decide
USGS
is
what
you
want
to
go
with.
If
22
USGS
subcontracts
anything,
they
should
follow
the
23
six
good
faith
efforts
so
it
would
still
flow
down
24
from
them
and
their
process.

32
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
I
don't
think
I've
ever
seen
that
2
scenario,
but
it
would
be
interested
to
see
how
it
3
would
work.

4
MS.
BROWN:
In
the
direct
procedure.
Since
we
5
have
goals
that
we
have
to
follow
as
well,
good
6
goals
for
small
business,
USGS
would
fall
into
that
7
category.
So
they're
also
on
the
direct
8
procurement
side
having
to
do
something
similar.

9
We
don't
call
it
good
faith
efforts,
but
they
have
10
goals
that
they
have
to
meet
that
have
been
11
established
and
negotiated
with
SBA
for
all
of
us.

12
MR.
SCHUETTPELZ:
Another
question,
I
was
going
13
to
ask
this
later
on,
but
are
the
other
Federal
14
agencies
also
going
to
have
to
go
doing
something
15
similar
than
what
you're
doing
here?

16
MS.
PATRICK:
In
the
Federal
Government
there
17
are
only
three
agencies
like
ours
that
do
this
18
level
of
grant
making
and
have
the
requirements
for
19
good
faith,
et
cetera.
They
are
NASA,
of
course
20
us,
and
DOT.

21
At
the
current
time
we
don't
know
22
what
NASA
is
doing
with
their
program.
DOT,
of
23
course,
has
their
programs
well
staked,
we
would
24
fall
in
right
behind
them.
So
to
the
extent
that
33
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
these
three
agencies
are
unique,
I
don't
know
that
2
other
agencies
would
have
a
need
for
such
a
3
program.

4
Our
situation
is
very
different.

5
Three
times
our
budget
goes
out
the
door
in
grants
6
as
it
does
in
direct
contracting.
So
because
we
7
are
a
large
volume
grant­
making
agency,
having
8
rules
like
this
makes
us
a
little
unique
and
it
9
makes
a
little
more
sense
for
us
to
have
that.

10
Other
agencies
probably
don't
do
it
that
involve
11
granting.

12
MS.
BROWN:
Two
agencies
have
been
in
to
talk
13
to
us
about
our
grant
program
most
recently,
and
14
that
includes
HHS
and
Homeland
Security.
So
we
15
have
been
talking
to
them.

16
Homeland
Security
is
on
totally
17
different
rules,
I
think
some
of
them
they
kind
of
18
make
up
as
they
go,
and
they
are
newly
established
19
and
they
don't
have
to
the
follow
the
FAR
and
other
20
things.
So
they
are
trying
to
get
a
handle
on
some
21
of
the
things
that
they
are
doing.
They
were
just
22
in
to
meet
with
us
about
five
months
ago.

23
And
HHS
has
also
been
questioning
us
24
and
looking
at
the
rule
and
asking
questions
in
34
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
terms
of
what
it
is
that
we're
doing.
So
I
don't
2
know
if
you're
going
see
a
shift
or
see
more
come
3
on­
board.

4
But
when
under
the
prior
5
administration,
I
think
maybe
if
you
may
have
heard
6
when
they
talked
about
affirmative
action
programs,

7
end
it,
not
end
it,
and
a
review
was
done
by
the
8
Department
of
Justice,
they
came
in
and
took
a
look
9
at
EPA
and
other
agencies
who
were
doing
the
10
program.
We
worked
very
closely
with
DOJ,
it
was
11
recommended
that
we
come
behind
DOT
since
they
were
12
the
predominant
and
they
had
more
money,
mega
bucks
13
compared
to
our
program,
that
they
go
through
that
14
process
first
and
then
we
would
follow.
So
we
have
15
followed
suit.

16
What
we've
also
tried
to
do
where
we
17
could
as
best
or
most
practical,
is
to
make
our
two
18
programs
somewhat
aligned
where
we
could,
given
the
19
difference
in
our
statutes
and
the
uniqueness
of
20
our
program.

21
One
comment
I
would
like
to
make
on
22
that.
If
other
Federal
agencies,
and
there
are
23
other
Federal
agencies
that
are
going
to
get
into
24
that
program,
that
you
keep
things
the
same.
So
35
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
next
month
I'm
not
looking
where
is
HHS
right
now,

2
I'm
looking
at
DOT,
similar
type
of
meetings,
so
3
that
the
forms
and
everything
is
similar
or
the
4
same
so
we
don't
have
all
those
other
agencies
to
5
go
through.

6
MS.
BROWN:
Thank
you.

7
Yes,
ma'am.

8
MS.
LUTTENTON:
Jesse
Luttenton,
Keweenaw.

9
Just
a
point
of
clarification
as
to
what
this
10
gentleman
from
Menomonee
just
said.

11
Actually,
what
you
just
said
what
12
USGS
would
have
to
do
is
basically
one
of
the
six
13
good
faith
efforts.
So
you
would
just
include
this
14
in
the
bid
if
you
subcontract,
and
it's
pretty
much
15
taken
care
of.

16
MS.
PATRICK:
Exactly.
Thank
you.

17
MS.
WEINER:
Darlene
Weiner,
procurement
18
analyst
for
EPA.

19
For
those
of
us
using
Federal
20
supplies,
Schedules
GSA
Federal
supply,
Schedules
21
FSA,
that
you
have
to
get
at
least
three
quotes
and
22
you
do
have
the
opportunity
of
targeting
businesses
23
that
you
get
quotes
from
because
their
size
is
24
identified
in
the
Schedule.
And
that
is
­­
I
just
36
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
wanted
to
pass
that
along
to
you.

2
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

3
Okay,
moving
right
along,
the
next
4
section
is
contract
administration
provisions,

5
which
is
what
we
began
to
touch
on
a
little
bit
6
about
the
payment
and
things
like
that.
Most
of
7
these
provisions
are
in
place
to
sort
of
protect
8
the
subcontractor
who
sometimes
is
a
DBE,
and
we
9
want
to
make
sure
there
are
things
in
place
that
10
provide
some
level
of
protection
for
them.
The
11
first
one
is
a
recipient
must
be
notified
in
12
writing
by
its
prime
contractor
prior
to
any
13
termination
of
the
DBE
subcontractor.

14
Many
times
primes
will
come
in
and
15
say
here
is
this
long
list
of
DBEs
we're
going
to
16
subcontract
with,
and
the
minute
they
got
the
17
contract
they
all
disappear.
And
we
want
to
make
18
sure
that
the
recipient
is
well
aware
of
that
19
activity,
because
many
times
it
occurs,
the
20
recipient
has
no
idea
it
has
happened.
So
we
want
21
to
make
sure
that
they
are
notified
in
writing
22
prior
to
the
termination.

23
Next,
when
a
DBE
subcontractors
fails
24
to
complete
its
work
under
the
subcontract
for
any
37
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
reason,
the
recipient
must
require
the
prime
2
contractor
to
make
good
faith
efforts
in
hiring
3
another
subcontractor,
which
is
the
issue
the
4
gentleman
talked
about
before.
There
is
a
5
provision
in
place
to
make
sure
the
good
faith
6
efforts
don't
go
away.

7
So
in
the
instance
that
a
DBE
8
contract
is
terminated,
we
want
to
make
sure
that
9
all
efforts
are
made
yet
again
to
include
DBE's
in
10
the
process
of
competitive
bidding
or
whatever,

11
when
a
new
subcontractor
is
sought.

12
MS.
PATRICK:
The
other
thing
with
that,
too,

13
when
the
first
one
in
being
notified
as
the
grant
14
recipient
it
is
our
hope
that
you
would
not
only
be
15
notified
but
be
aware
and
do
something,
inquire
16
about
why
the
DBE
was
terminated.
You
know,
trying
17
to
look
into
that,
so
that
we
have
a
handle
on
18
what's
going
on
in
the
process.

19
MS.
DONNEY:
I'm
Lynn
Donney,
the
Office
of
20
Regional
Counsel
for
EPA
here
in
Chicago.
21
Addressing
the
concern
of
the
gentleman
from
them
22
Menomonee
Tribe
regarding
timeliness
of
such
23
continuing
good
faith
efforts,
in
the
event
a
24
subcontractor
who
is
a
DBE
for
whatever
reason
38
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
fails
to
complete
a
job.

2
As
a
comment,
is
it
possible
for
us
3
to
consider
the
possibility
of
just
basically
4
returning
to
the
original,
quote,
unquote,
DBE
list
5
that
had
been
established
through
the
initial
good
6
faith
efforts
and
going
to
people
further
down
that
7
list
who
for
whatever
reason
had
not
been
on
the
8
original
agreement,
or
had
not
been
original
9
subcontractors
on
this
particular
grant?

10
MS.
PATRICK:
In
any
case,
that
is
a
logical
11
starting
place.
If
you
have
to
go
back
and
redo
12
good
faith
efforts
and
finding
a
subcontractor,
it
13
would
be
logical
to
go
back
to
the
list
you
did
the
14
first
one.

15
MS.
DONNEY:
You
can
use
the
good
faith
efforts
16
you've
already
performed,
and
I
think
that
would
be
17
a
time
issue.

18
MS.
PATRICK:
We
just
want
to
make
sure
that
19
they
are
continually
included
in
the
process.
It's
20
not
just
the
situation,
okay,
we
got
quit
of
this
21
one,
let's
just
go
with
this
guy
we
want
to
do
22
business
with
and
we
just
like.

23
MS.
BROWN:
All
of
this,
too,
has
got
to
make
24
sense.
I
heard
you
and
I
could
feel
what
you
said
39
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
when
you
said
it
would
hold
up
and
it
would
cost
2
money
if
you
can't
find
one.

3
The
key
to
all
this,
too,
is
4
documenting
your
files.
If
there
is
an
emergency
5
and
somebody
is
off
the
job
for
what
whatever
6
reason,
it's
documented
and
you
have
to
move
on.

7
What
that
impact
is
going
to
be,
you
have
gone
8
through
the
list
of
the
initial
list
and
there
is
9
nobody
there,
you
can't
bring
anybody
in.
All
of
10
those
things,
document
it
and
move
on.

11
But
the
key
to
all
of
this
is
that
12
it's
got
to
make
sense
and
you
need
to
be
­­
your
13
files
need
to
be
documented.
So
that
should
there
14
be
an
audit
or
review,
we
can
adequately
show
what
15
we
did
and
why
we
did
it.

16
And
I
think
for
a
lot
of
us
and
for
a
17
lot
of
our
grants,
possibly
in
the
past
we
may
not
18
have
documented
everything
that
we've
done.
The
19
key
to
all
of
this
is
documenting
your
files
with
20
what
the
process
is
that
we
used,
why
we
used
it,

21
how
it
was
established
and
set
up.
We
are
not
just
22
making
it
up
as
we
go
along,
you
know.
That
kind
23
of
thing.

24
Does
that
make
sense?

40
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
MS.
LUTTENTON:
Jesse
Luttenton
again.
My
2
comment
was
just
to
this
lady
was
­­
and
we
have
it
3
in
our
policies
even
with
hiring,
it's
the
top
two
4
or
top
third,
and
we
award
it
to
XYZ.
And
should
5
XYZ
not
take
the
position
or
be
able
to
complete
6
the
work,
the
recommendation
would
go
to
ABC
or
7
whatever.
So
that
if
it's
a
huge
thing,
we
may
do
8
the
top
third
and
there
may
be
three
9
recommendations
there.
Wouldn't
it
just
cover
it
10
then,
and
then
that
is
documented
in
a
letter
of
11
recommendation?

12
MS.
PATRICK:
As
long
as
the
first
time
you
13
went
out
to
find
those
people
you
followed
the
six
14
affirmative
steps
and
you
can
show
you
followed
15
them,
and
you
say
this
is
what
processes
yielded
16
and
these
are
our
top
three,
I
don't
see
a
problem
17
with
that
being
sufficient
should
there
be
a
18
termination
with
a
subcontractor
by
the
prime
and
19
they
have
to
go
out
and
do
this.
If
they
already
20
have
the
documentation
of
what
they
have
done,

21
that's
what
we
are
looking
for.

22
We
also
want
most
of
this
to
sort
of
23
be
an
enhancement
to
the
procurement
practices
we
24
hope
you
already
have
in
place.
If
you
don't
have
41
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
a
set
of
procurement
practices
in
place,
it's
2
something
your
Tribe
may
want
to
do.
Getting
3
something
down
in
writing,
that
is
a
real
process
4
for
your
procurements,
particularly
when
your
doing
5
competitive
processing.

6
Because
it
really
helps
the
Tribe
to
7
say
we
went
to
our
own
people
first
or
we
went
to
8
businesses
in
our
local
community
first,
because
it
9
enhances
and
builds
the
community.
This
is
just
10
larger
than
meeting
EPA
grant
requirements,
it
also
11
when
you
look
at
the
bigger
picture,
it's
good
12
across
the
board
and
we
want
you
to
do
things
that
13
make
good
business
sense.

14
We
are
not
saying
go
with
the
DBE
15
because
we
said
so,
even
if
it
cost
three
times
16
more.
What
we
are
saying
is
include
the
DBE
in
the
17
process,
and
in
the
end
your
final
analysis
should
18
be
what
is
really
good
for
us
business­
wise.
But
19
as
long
as
you
include
them
in
the
process,
that's
20
what
we
are
asking.

21
MEMBER
OF
THE
AUDIENCE:
Perhaps,
Kim,
what
you
22
would
like
to
clarify
is
under
no
circumstances
is
23
anybody
required
to
obtain
DBE.
That
has
been
24
something
that
has
come
up
with
a
couple
of
cases
42
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
in
downstate
Illinois
where
the
understanding
of
2
the
State
or
the
Municipal
entity
was
that
they
3
were
obligated
to
hire
a
DBE
contractor
business
4
even
if
the
packet
that
the
DBE
contractor
came
in
5
with
a
higher
bid,
that
is
not
the
case.

6
MS.
PATRICK:
It's
got
to
make
good
business
7
sense,
and
we
are
not
saying
that
you
have
to
pay
8
these
astronomical
prices.
But
you
need
to
9
document
why
you
went
to
them,
they
were
not
the
10
ones
that
won
because
of
their
price
or
whatever
11
the
factor
is
and
move
on.

12
Not
only
do
they
have
to
have
a
good
13
price,
but
they
also
have
to
be
ready
and
willing
14
to
do
the
work.
If
they
can't
fit
it
in
their
15
schedule,
they
may
exist
but
they
have
too
much
on
16
their
plate,
and
they
will
tell
you
I
can't
do
this
17
job
now.
Those
are
the
kinds
of
things
you
need
to
18
document.

19
Again,
the
key
to
all
of
this
is
20
documentation.
By
all
means,
then
you're
right.

21
We
are
not
saying
you
have
to
go
to
a
DBE,
we
are
22
saying
you
have
to
include
them
in
your
process.

23
And
then,
you
know,
they
have
to
be
competitive.

24
Moving
on,
the
next
thing
was
that
a
43
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
recipient
must
require
its
prime
contractor
to
make
2
good
faith
efforts,
even
if
the
fair
share
3
objectives
are
met.

4
That
is
sort
of
skipping
ahead
to
5
something
we
are
going
to
talk
about
in
the
next
6
section.
But
every
recipient
has
something
called
7
fair
share
objectives
or
fair
share
goal
in
their
8
grant
brief,
which
says
their
goal
is
to
spend
a
9
certain
percentage
of
their
money
they
get
with
the
10
DBE.

11
So
based
on
that
goal,
let's
say
the
12
recipient's
goal
is
12
percent.
What
we
are
saying
13
is
even
if
the
recipient
has
reached
that
12
14
percent
goal,
the
expectation
is
if
you're
still
15
going
out
and
making
procurements
with
the
EPA
16
money,
you're
still
going
to
use
the
good
faith
17
efforts
in
your
procurements
regardless
of
whether
18
or
not
your
good
faith
efforts
are
met.

19
It
keeps
going.
It
doesn't
stop
just
20
with
12
percent.
We
want
to
see
people
who
have
21
instead
of
12
percent,
they
have
24.
Continue
the
22
good
faith
efforts
even
after
the
goals
are
met.

23
The
next
statement,
which
is
a
really
24
important
provision
which
is
something
we
have
got
44
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
a
lot,
is
that
a
recipient
must
require
its
prime
2
contractor
to
pay
its
subcontractor
for
3
satisfactory
performance
within
a
specific
number
4
of
days
from
the
prime
contractor's
receipt
of
5
payment
from
the
recipient.

6
The
number
one
comment
we
have
got
is
7
that
you
need
EPA
to
include
a
specific
number
of
8
days
there.
At
this
point
we
left
it
kind
of
open,

9
but
the
overwhelming
response
has
been
we
need
to
10
have
a
number
plugged
in
there
so
it's
pretty
clear
11
what
the
expectation
is.

12
The
numbers
we
have
been
hearing
are
13
between
seven
to
ten
days.
Some
people
have
said
14
as
many
as
45,
some
have
said
30.
So
I
encourage
15
you
to
really
comment
on
this.
If
you
have
any
16
ideas
about
the
number
of
days
that
makes,

17
especially
the
small
businesses
that
are
18
represented
out
here,
we'd
really
appreciate
it.

19
MR.
SHOWERS:
Mike
Showers,
Arrow
Electric.

20
The
seven
to
ten
day
seems
to
be
more
21
appropriate
than
30.
That
seems
typical
even
in
22
normal
contracting
situations,
that
the
primes
hold
23
their
money
for
30
to
45
days.
There
is
not
24
necessarily
any
need
for
them
to
hold
that
money
45
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
for
30
to
45
days.

2
Being
a
small
business
owner,
I
3
employ
about
30
people.
That
money
is
needed
in
4
paying
interest
to
the
bank
on
that
money,
so
the
5
sooner
I
can
get
it
the
better.
Understanding
I
6
have
to
wait
until
they
get
paid
and
then
mail
time
7
and
their
processing,
seven
to
ten
days
seems
to
be
8
appropriate.
Thank
you.

9
MS.
PATRICK:
Anything
else?

10
MS.
STEVENS:
Marj
Stevens
with
the
Oneida
11
Nation.

12
I
had
that
experience
with
Lambow
13
Field.
Everybody
knows
that
they
just
redeveloped
14
Lambow
Field,
and
there
was
a
15(
a)
minority
and
15
women
ratio,
and
that
was
the
biggest
problems
that
16
we
had
on
that
project
is
the
small
businesses
not
17
getting
paid
on
time
and
being
held
back.
So
that
18
I
think
that's
an
effort
that
really
has
to
be
19
developed.
And
what
Mr.
Showers
said
was
seven
to
20
ten
days
was
really
what
needs
to
happen
for
our
21
small
businesses.
Thank
you.

22
MS.
PATRICK:
The
next
thing
­­
oh,
I'm
sorry.

23
MS.
LUTTENTON:
Jesse
Luttenton,
and
I
24
understand
what
both
of
you
are
saying
about
the
46
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
timely
efforts.

2
But
coming
from
my
perspective
as
the
3
recipient
and
as
the
person
who
coordinates
a
4
multitude
of
grant­
funded
programming
and
that
type
5
of
stuff,
sometimes
seven
to
ten
days
is
really
6
cutting
it
close
with
accounting
procedures
when
7
you're
working
in
a
larger
area.

8
I
know
that
that
doesn't
make
sense
9
from
your
perspective,
but
just
knowing
paying
the
10
bills
and
having
managed
grant
programs,
something
11
more
like
14
to
21
days
or
two
to
three
weeks
is
12
more
a
reasonable
Indian­
type
time.

13
MR.
HOFFMAN:
Brett
Hoffman
with
the
Menominee
14
Tribe,
Wisconsin.

15
The
time
line
for
paying
vendors,
our
16
Tribe
has
a
30
day,
a
standard
30
days.
We
pay
17
twice
a
month.
Usually
get
someone
paid
within
two
18
weeks,
but
we
have
a
standard
of
30
days
that
all
19
the
vendors
should
understand.
And
it
is
an
20
accounting
approval
process
that
once
work
is
21
completed
there
has
to
be
inspections
done
on
the
22
work,
then
there
is
some
approval
times.
Sometimes
23
the
bill
has
to
go
through
four
different
desks
for
24
approval
before
it
hits
finances,
so
there
is
some
47
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
time
there.

2
The
requirement
for
pay
within
a
3
week,
we
couldn't
even
do
that
under
the
existing
4
system
without
cutting
emergency
checks
just
left
5
and
right
out
of
the
system.
To
have
some
6
contractors,
I
think
what
we
would
look
at
doing
is
7
building
into
our
contracts
that
the
primary
8
contractor
pays
their
subcontractor
within
X
number
9
of
days
of
the
sub
completing
their
section
of
the
10
work,
as
opposed
to
waiting
for
us
to
pay
the
11
primary
and
then
the
sub
getting
paid.
That
might
12
help
some
of
the
subs
under
there.
Would
that
be
13
an
acceptable
policy
I
guess?

14
MS.
BROWN:
Right
here
it
says
in
number
four,

15
the
recipients
must
require
prime
contractor
to
pay
16
its
subcontractor.
It
doesn't
say
that
the
grant
17
recipient
have
to
pay
it,
although
we
would
hope
to
18
think
that
we
are
paying
in
a
timely
fashion.

19
Because
we
know
especially
in
those
instances
where
20
small
businesses
are
being
used,
that's
a
cash
flow
21
problem
for
them
quite
probably.

22
So
this
requirement
right
here
is
on
23
the
recipient
as
you,
the
grantee,
to
require
your
24
prime
contractors
to
pay
their
subcontractors
in
a
48
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
satisfactory
­­
I
mean,
in
a
timely
fashion.

2
MEMBER
OF
THE
AUDIENCE:
Linda
with
ORJ.

3
Yesterday
in
the
public
hearing,
the
4
same
issue
came
up.
The
exact
same
concerns
for
5
small
business
people
with
a
long
time
pay
times
6
and
everything
else.

7
One
of
the
suggestions
we
had
was
8
that
one
the
recipient
makes
a
disbursement
to
the
9
prime,
that
there
is
a
mandatory
notification
to
10
the
subs
that
the
disbursement
has
been
made.

11
That
is
something
that
outside
the
12
Tribes
has
been
a
serious
problem.
The
sub
never
13
hears
when
the
prime
is
paid
and
the
prime
puts
14
them
off
and
puts
them
off
and
puts
them
off.
So
15
we
can
have
that
as
one
of
the
comments
and
we
are
16
seriously
considering
that,
that
there
was
a
17
notification
process
down
to
the
subcontractors.

18
In
addition,
I'm
sure
that
as
this
19
issue
is
raised
and
you
submit
further
written
20
comments,
you
can
suggest
a
framework
within
which
21
once
payment
is
made
by
the
recipient
to
the
prime,

22
that
is
going
to
have
included
all
of
these
23
standard
inspections,
approval,
final
24
recommendation
issues.

49
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
I
don't
know,
I
know
outside
the
2
Tribal
framework
it
does
not
work
for
the
sub
to
3
try
to
put
into
their
contract
by
the
primes
I
get
4
paid
on
X
date
regardless
of
when
you
get
paid.

5
Prime
is
not
going
to
do
it
and
I
don't
blame
6
them.
Whether
or
not
they
have
the
money,
they
7
haven't
received
the
money
for
that
project,
why
8
should
they
pay
their
subs?
9
But
if
we
have
a
framework
within
10
which
the
recipient
is
saying,
all
right,
our
11
process
is
done,
and
they
of
course
presumably
try
12
to
expedite
it
and
they
have
a
notification
process
13
to
their
subs,
once
the
prime
is
paid
then
you
may
14
have
seven
to
ten
business
days
within
which
the
15
sub
gets
paid.
And
that
is
a
recommendation
16
between
the
rule
and
how
it
is
implemented.

17
MR.
SHOWERS:
Mike
Showers,
Arrow
Electric.

18
In
response
to
what
you
said,
being
a
19
subcontractor
working
for
several
different
primes,

20
when
I
negotiate
my
final
contract
before
I
sign
21
it,
that's
one
of
the
things
that
is
discussed
is
22
when
they
are
going
to
pay
me.

23
I
understand
they
have
to
get
paid
24
first,
I
don't
dispute
that.
But
some
of
the
50
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
things,
the
14
and
21
days
that
was
discussed
2
earlier,
we
have
to
submit
pre­
approved
payments
3
before
they
submit
it
to
get
paid.
So
some
of
that
4
paperwork
is
already
done
from
my
side
of
the
5
fence.

6
LINDA:
I
don't
see
any
reason
the
subs
7
shouldn't
be
able
to
get
paid
within
seven
to
ten
8
days,
business
days
once
the
prime
is
paid.

9
Because
presumably,
as
you
say,
all
that
10
preliminary
approval
work,
everything
else,
the
11
recipients
will
have
done
all
of
their
approval,

12
all
of
their
inspections.

13
It's
really
a
matter
of
form,
once
14
that
prime
has
the
money
they
should
be
cutting
15
checks.
They
should
have
done
the
inspections,

16
they
should
know
whether
or
not
the
work
is
17
acceptable
and
finished
at
that
point.

18
MS.
BROWN:
Like
we
said,
we
have
3
days
up
to
19
45.
And
in
different
parts
of
the
country,
the
20
predominant
thing
here
today
and
yesterday
I
think
21
I'm
hearing
seven
to
ten.
In
other
parts
of
the
22
country
we
are
looking
at
15
probably,
some
places
23
said
three
to
a
week
turn
around.
Some
people
went
24
as
far
out
as
between
30
and
45.
There
weren't
too
51
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
many
in
that
sense,
so
I
think
we
have
a
range
in
2
terms
of
what
we
are
looking
for.

3
Okay,
thank
you.

4
MS.
PATRICK:
The
next
thing
that
we
are
going
5
to
require
the
recipient
to
complete
a
few
new
6
forms
to
prevent
"
bait
and
switch"
tactics.
7
Some
of
those
forms
will
include
some
8
information
that
the
primes
will
have
to
provide
9
regarding
their
subcontractors'
activities
and
who
10
they're
subcontracting
with.
And
that
is
again
to
11
make
sure
that
the
recipient
is
well
aware
of
what
12
is
going
on
beyond
that
prime
contractor
level.

13
MS.
BROWN:
One
of
the
forms
that
we
identify
14
is
that
you
as
a
subcontractor
will
be
able
to
tell
15
us
or
tell
your
recipient
what
it
is
that
the
prime
16
contractor,
what
kind
of
agreement
you
entered
into
17
so
that
they
will
know
what
we
are
looking
at,

18
because
a
lot
of
times
people
change.
You
think
19
you're
going
to
get
one
thing,
and
then
it's
20
completely
changed.
So
we
will
be
more.
Again,

21
documentation
is
the
key
and
all
of
this
22
information
will
be
relevant.

23
MS.
PATRICK:
The
next
thing,
which
is
really
24
important
if
you
are
a
grant
recipient,
is
the
52
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
submission
of
a
fair
share
goals
that
we
talked
2
about
a
few
minutes
ago.

3
This
rule
would
require
a
recipient
4
to
submit
its
proposed
fair
share
objectives
and
5
supporting
documentation
to
the
Agency
no
later
6
than
90
days
after
its
acceptance
of
the
assistance
7
award.

8
This
provision
is
new.
A
recipient
9
would
not
be
able
to
spend
any
of
its
financial
10
assistance
award
for
procurement
until
the
fair
11
share
objective
negotiation
process
has
been
12
completed.

13
And
be
very
clear,
you
can
spend
the
14
money
on
salaries,
but
you
cannot
spend
the
money
15
on
any
type
of
procurements
for
construction,

16
construction
equipment,
if
you
have
not
negotiated
17
your
fair
share
goals
within
that
90
day
period.

18
If
within
that
90
day
period
the
goals
have
not
19
been
negotiated,
you
can't
spend
the
money,
I
just
20
want
to
make
that
very,
very
clear,
unless
it's
on
21
salaries.

22
This
provision
is
completely
brand
23
new,
and
we
talk
about
negotiating
goals
for
the
24
Tribes.
We
understand
that
in
the
past
we
have
not
53
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
required
Tribes
to
negotiate.
And
because
we
2
understand
this
is
a
new
process
for
you
all
­­

3
jumping
ahead
a
bit,
I'm
going
to
get
back
to
the
4
goals
themselves
­­
we
have
put
into
the
rule
a
5
three
year
phase­
in
period
for
this
specifically
6
for
the
Tribes.

7
To
give
you
an
understanding
of
what
8
these
goals
are,
these
are
goals
and
not
quotas.

9
We
are
going
to
be
very,
very
clear.
Goals,
not
a
10
quota.
It
is
not
mandatory
that
you
meet
this
11
goal,
and
if
you
don't
meet
goals,
horrible
and
12
terrible
things
will
not
happen
to
you.
We
would
13
like
for
you
to
meet
the
following,
and
if
it's
14
seen
that
you
consistently
don't
meet
it
or
are
15
well
under
it,
it
just
makes
us
go
back
and
look
16
and
say
either
what
you
based
the
goal
on
is
17
incorrect,
or
the
good
faith
effort
is
not
18
happening.
It's
a
signal
to
us
to
look
a
little
19
deeper
into
what
your
practices
are.

20
The
goals
are
based
on
an
21
availability
analysis
or
a
disparity
study.
These
22
analyses
look
at
your
geographic
area
where
you
do
23
your
purchasing.
It
looks
at
the
businesses
that
24
are
available
to
do
the
work
in
the
different
54
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
categories
of
work
that
you
need
to
be
done,
and
it
2
gives
sort
of
a
snapshot
of
what
minority
and
3
women­
owned
businesses
or
DBEs
are
available
to
do
4
that
work
in
that
geographic
area
and
that's
what
5
the
goal
is
based
on.
There
are
many
options
in
6
terms
of
the
availability
and
assistance
and
the
7
disparate
studies
and
the
actual
goals
themselves.

8
As
an
option,
and
I
want
to
be
clear
9
it's
an
option,
the
Tribe
has
the
option
of
10
adopting
the
goal
of
the
State
if
they
chose
to.

11
If
you
look
at
your
buying
processes
and
your
12
relevant
geographic
area
and
you
see
that
either
13
it's
an
established
State
goal
or
an
establish
goal
14
of
a
State
entity,
because
sometimes
we
have
a
15
board
that
has
its
own
goal,
and
that
is
relevant
16
to
you,
you
have
the
option
of
adopting
that
very
17
same
goal
or
you
can
do
your
own
availability
18
analysis
or
disparity
study
and
negotiate
your
own
19
goal
yourself.
With
the
availability
analysis
and
20
things
like
that,
we
understand
that
they
are
21
indeed
costly
to
have
them
done.

22
Some
other
ideas
of
that,
if
you
want
to
23
adopt
the
same
goal
that
another
Tribe
has
already
24
negotiated
that
is
within
your
geographic
area,

55
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
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263­
0052
1
that
is
an
option
that
you
have.

2
In
terms
of
the
cost
of
the
3
availability
analysis
and
disparity
studies,
there
4
is
a
number
of
different
ways
you
can
look
at
5
getting
this
done.
You
can
contact
your
college
6
and
universities,
sometimes
they
will
have
students
7
who
are
available
as
a
project
on
doing
this
type
8
of
thing,
which
will
be
at
a
reduced
cost
to
you,

9
and
it's
also
possible
that
the
cost
for
doing
10
these
can
be
spread
out
over
your
grants.
Not
11
charged
to
one
grant
by
itself,
but
spread
out
over
12
your
multiple
grants,
if
you
have
them.
As
an
13
administrative
cost
to
the
grant
to
somehow
pay
for
14
the
availability.

15
MS.
BROWN:
If
in
the
event
you're
looking
to
16
spread
the
cost
out
over
your
grant,
you
need
to
17
talk
to
your
program
people
first
to
make
sure
18
everybody
is
in
agreement
in
terms
of
how
that
will
19
be
done.
I'm
not
saying
and
we
are
not
saying
that
20
you
will
get
new
money
for
an
availability
21
analysis.
It
is
my
understanding
that
the
22
disparity
studies
cost
a
lot
of
money,
and
I
pretty
23
much
can
say
I
think
we
won't
be
paying
for
24
disparity
studies,
it's
just
too
costly.

56
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
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CHICAGO,
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(
312)
263­
0052
1
So
when
you
start
looking
at
the
2
availability
analysis,
before
you
make
the
3
assumption
that
it
is
a
grant­
approved
cost,
you
4
need
make
sure
you're
talking
to
your
program
5
manager,
your
project
officer
to
make
sure
in
6
advance
of
how
that's
going
to
go
about.
Okay.

7
MS.
PATRICK:
Do
we
have
any
questions
about
8
the
goals
and
negotiations?

9
The
next
section
is
really
dealing
10
with,
turn
to
page
seven
where
we
talk
about
race
11
and
gender­
conscious
efforts.
To
the
extent
the
12
good
faith
efforts
prove
to
be
inadequate
to
13
achieve
the
fair
share
goals
for
MBEs
and
WBEs,
we
14
encourage
the
recipients
or
prime
contractor
to
15
make
reasonable
race
and/
or
gender
conscious
16
actions
to
the
extent
necessary
to
more
closely
17
achieve
the
fair
share
goals,
including
prior
18
incentives
and
technical
evaluation
credits.

19
If
a
recipient
decides
to
make
these,

20
there
must
be
prior
notification
of
the
21
contemplated
action
to
the
EPA
before
you
go
out
22
and
actually
do
that
so
we
are
aware
that
you're
23
taking
race
and
gender
conscious
efforts.

24
The
next
things
which
is
highly
57
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
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263­
0052
1
relevant,
particularly
if
you're
a
grant
recipient,

2
are
the
exemptions.
The
first
agreement
in
the
3
exemptions
will
be
to
exempt
a
grant
of
$
250,000
or
4
less,
or
a
grant
that
totals
$
250,000
or
less
in
a
5
given
fiscal
year.
That's
a
huge
exemption.

6
The
exemptions
are
not,
I
repeat
not,

7
not,
not
and
will
never
be
exemptions
from
the
good
8
faith
efforts
or
from
the
reporting
requirements.

9
This
is
only
an
exemption
from
the
negotiations
10
process.

11
MS.
WEINER:
Darlene
Weiner,
EPA.

12
Mr.
DeWilliam,
director
of
our
Indian
Environmental
13
Office,
asked
me
to
make
a
comment
for
him
since
he
14
had
to
leave
to
attend
another
meeting.

15
He
wants
to
know
why
you're
16
considering
the
total
amount
$
250,000
instead
of
17
looking
at
it
as
exemptions
of
$
250,000,
you
know,

18
if
it's
more
than
$
250,000
in
procurement
dollars,

19
he
wondered
why
not
procurement
dollars
for
the
20
exemptions?

21
MS.
PATRICK:
We
are
not
just
looking
at
22
procurement
dollars
for
a
number
of
reasons.
When
23
a
grant
award
is
made,
it's
kind
of
hard
to
24
determine
in
many
instances
exactly
how
the
58
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
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(
312)
263­
0052
1
recipients
are
going
to
spend
the
money.
Sometimes
2
it's
only
for
salaries,
but
that
it's
possible
3
mid­
treatment
to
switch
that
and
decide
to
use
the
4
money
on
procurements
necessary.
And
if
we
were
5
just
looking
at
a
huge
volume
of
people
that
should
6
be
negotiating,
we
thought
about
that
and
that
7
suggestion
was
made
to
us
a
number
of
times.

8
There
was
much
negotiation
over
9
coming
up
with
this
number.
We
had
to
include
SRF
10
Ground
Rules
Program
and
as
well
as
the
grant
11
programs.
It
was
just
a
huge
thing
internally
with
12
the
agencies
to
come
up
with
a
number
$
250,000,
but
13
it
was
a
number
that
finally
brought
peace
in
the
14
land,
so
we
kind
of
went
with
that.
But
it
was
15
after
much
thought.

16
MS.
WEINER:
Thank
you.
I
will
let
him
know.

17
MR.
SCHUETTPELZ:
Gary
Schuettpelz,
Menominee.

18
Going
back
to
this
fair
share
19
negotiations,
the
way
I
understand
it
is,
if
I
am
20
correct,
we
only
have
to
do
this
once
and
that
21
covers
all
our
EPA
grants,
or
do
we
have
to
do
it
22
for
each
separate
EPA
grant?

23
MS.
PATRICK:
It
depends
on
what
you're
24
purchasing.
Really,
it
does.
If
you're
purchasing
59
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
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(
312)
263­
0052
1
same
types
of
things
with
the
grant
monies
that
2
you're
getting,
it's
possible
for
the
same
goal
to
3
apply,
as
long
as
what
you're
purchasing
is
the
4
same.

5
Let's
say
with
one
grant
you're
6
purchasing
office
supplies
or
something,
okay.

7
That's
one
category,
and
there
may
be
a
goal
for
8
that.
But
let's
say
with
the
next
grant
you're
9
getting
construction
services
or
engineering
10
services.
That
goal
may
be
different
because
the
11
universe
of
available
DBEs
may
be
larger
or
smaller
12
depending
on
what
you're
purchasing,
so
it
may
be
13
possible
to
have
a
different
goal
for
a
grant.

14
Now,
the
goals
are
good
for
three
15
years
once
the
goal
is
negotiated,
unless
there
is
16
something
that's
a
significant
change
occurs
during
17
those
three
years
to
necessitate
a
renegotiation
of
18
a
goal.

19
MS.
BROWN:
When
do
you
your
availability
20
analysis,
one
of
the
things
that
we
are
asking
you
21
to
do
is
to
take
a
look
at
what
your
prior
22
practices
have
been.
And
you
really
need
to
take
a
23
look
at
it
out
of
the
grant
that
you
received
from
24
EPA,
what
categories
that
they
fall
in
and
those
60
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
four
categories
that
we
consider
procurement,
that
2
includes
construction,
equipment,
services
or
3
supplies.
And
you
may
be
able
to
determine
from
4
that
assessment
that
you've
done
what
your
goals
5
are
in
the
possible
four
categories,
all
are
6
prime.

7
If
that
is
the
case,
once
you've
8
negotiated
that,
then
that's
it.
We
list
and
post
9
those
in
the
system
so
that
the
grant
specialist
10
will
have
access
to
that,
so
that
every
time
they
11
go
to
make
an
award,
they
will
know
what
goals
to
12
tie
into
your
grant
award.
Okay.
So
like
Kimberly
13
said,
once
that's
done,
those
goals
are
in
place
14
for
three
years.
That's
what
we
have
been
doing.

15
Some
of
the
changes
that
we
can
16
investigate
that
possibly
would
cause
you
to
17
rethink
or
want
to
change
your
numbers,
most
18
recently
was
the
new
census
that
was
done,
which
is
19
not
new
now.
But
after
the
latest
census
that
was
20
done
we
went
back
to
all
of
our
other
MBE/
WBE
21
recipient
coordinators
and
said
we
recognize
and
22
understand
new
data
has
come
out.
If
that
impacts
23
in
any
way
your
negotiations,
your
goals
that
have
24
been
negotiated,
you
need
to
let
us
know.
61
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
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312)
263­
0052
1
Some
people
came
in
as
a
result
of
2
the
new
census
data
and
renegotiated
and
we
are
3
able
to
get
a
smaller
goal
versus
the
larger
one
4
with
the
shift
in
the
census.

5
MS.
POLSKI:
I'm
Sara
Polski.
I'm
really
knew
6
to
this
stuff,
but
I
just
want
to
make
sure
I
7
understand
this.

8
The
$
250,000
exemption,
is
that
for
9
all
EPA
combined
grants?

10
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes.
If
your
grand
total
for
one
11
fiscal
year
are
above
250K,
then
you
would
have
to
12
negotiate.
If
they
are
below
that,
then
you
would
13
not
have
to
negotiate.

14
MS.
POLSKI:
So
all
of
our
EPA
grants
are
above
15
250,000.
So
if
our
contractual
services
are
16
$
500,000,
we
have
to
go
through
the
negotiation?

17
MS.
PATRICK:
Exactly.
The
$
250,000
exemption
18
also
applies
to
our
Brownfields
and
SRI
programs,

19
the
other
loan
programs,
as
well
as
the
dollars
20
amounts
for
that
particular
exemption.

21
Again,
that
is
exemption
in
the
22
negotiation
of
goals.
Not
the
fair
share,
not
six
23
affirmative
steps,
and
not
from
the
reporting
24
requirements.
62
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
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CHICAGO,
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263­
0052
1
MS.
LUTTENTON:
Jesse
Luttenton.

2
So
in
other
words,
if
I
have
a
3
Brownfields
that
is
200,000
and
I
have
GAP
money
4
that
totals
75,000,
then
I
have
to
negotiate?

5
MS.
PATRICK:
No.

6
MS.
BROWN:
We
will
talk
about
that
later.

7
That
is
next.

8
MS.
PATRICK:
They
would
be
separate.

9
MS.
LUTTENTON:
So
it's
individuals
at
the
10
250K.

11
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes.
If
you
reach
250K
with
your
12
loan
totals,
or
above,
you
have
to
negotiate.
Or
13
if
you
reach
250K
for
your
grant
totals,
you
have
14
to
negotiate.

15
I
understand
there
are
entities
that
16
have
both
the
loans
and
the
grants.
The
way
that
17
would
work
in
my
mind
is
something
we
haven't
quite
18
talked
about,
it's
a
new
scenario.
My
thinking
19
would
be
that
it
would
be
looked
at
separately
20
instead
of
one
big
amount,
but
­­

21
MS.
LUTTENTON:
So
the
second
example
would
be
22
I
have
a
Brownfields
at
200,000,
but
my
GAP
money
23
is
275,000,
then
I
have
to
negotiate
for
that
GAP
24
money?
No?
63
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
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(
312)
263­
0052
1
MS.
PATRICK:
No.
First
of
all,
because
we
are
2
moving
ahead
a
section,
I
don't
want
to
confuse
3
anybody.
In
that
situation
­­
not
turning
the
4
page
yet,
staying
on
this
page.
In
that
situation,

5
yes,
you
would
have
to
negotiate
because
your
GAP,

6
your
grant
amount
is
$
275,000,
which
is
over
the
7
250.
You
would
definitely
have
to
negotiate.

8
Now,
if
we
turn
the
page,
there
are
9
other
exemptions
that
apply
only
to
Tribes.
Grants
10
to
Tribes
that
are
PPG
eligible
grant,
which
means
11
that
17
categories
of
grants
that
are
eligible
to
12
be
rolled
into
a
PPG,
to
Tribes
only,
are
exempted
13
from
negotiations
also,
which
would
include
GAP
14
grants.
Also,
TAG
grants
to
Tribes
are
exempted
15
from
the
negotiations.

16
So
in
that
scenario,
because
your
17
grant
total
was
275K,
it
doesn't
matter,
TAG
grants
18
are
exempted
from
having
to
negotiate.
But
on
your
19
loan
side,
you
have
to
negotiate
if
you
reach
that
20
250K
or
above.

21
MS.
BROWN:
Does
makes
sense?

22
MS.
LUTTENTON:
Yes,
that
does
make
sense.

23
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
Both
of
those
exemptions
24
are
also
things
that
have
come
out
of
much,
much,

64
McCORKLE
COURT
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CHICAGO,
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263­
0052
1
much
discussion
and
very
extensive,
interesting
2
negotiations
to
come
up
with
that.

3
MS.
THOMPSON:
I'm
sorry,
I
have
to
go.

4
MS.
BROWN:
Your
name?

5
MS.
THOMPSON:
My
name
is
Pat
Thompson,
GMO,

6
Grant
Management
Office.

7
I
need
to
be
very
clear
on
what
this
8
rule
is
basically
saying,
and
I
want
to
make
sure
9
in
my
mind
that
I'm
understanding.

10
We
have
very
few
Tribes
in
the
11
region,
I
think,
that
get
less
than
$
250,000
a
year
12
in
their
combined
EPA
grants.
If
they
have
13
continuing
environment
program
grants,
you're
14
saying
those
are
exempt
from
that
total?

15
MS.
PATRICK:
As
long
as
the
environment
16
program
grants
can
be
rolled
into
a
PPG.

17
MS.
THOMPSON:
That's
what
they
are
called,

18
environment
program
grants?

19
MS.
PATRICK:
Exactly.

20
THE
WITNESS:
So
if
we
have
continuing
21
environment
program
grants
and
GAP
is
one
of
those
22
and
it
can
be
rolled
into
a
PPG,
then
they
are
23
exempt
from
250
total
when
you're
making
a
24
negotiation
on
whether
or
not
a
Tribe
has
to
in
65
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
1
fact
negotiate,
we
have
to
make
that
call
here
in
2
the
region
whether
or
not
we
need
fair
share
goals,

3
so
when
we
do
that
we
have
to
look
at
the
total
4
picture,
I
believe,
of
all
the
grant
awards,
the
5
Tribe
grant
awards
that
the
Tribe
has,
take
the
6
ones
out
that
are
continuing
environmental
program
7
eligible,
and
then
come
up
with
if
there
is
a
8
$
250,000
total?

9
MS.
PATRICK:
Right,
outside
of
those
­­

10
MS.
THOMPSON:.
Outside
of
Brownfields
and
SRF
11
as
well.

12
MS.
PATRICK:
Exactly.

13
MS.
BROWN:
I
have
to
look
at
the
total
picture
14
of
what
the
assistance
is
total
from
EPA.
Backing
15
out
those
exemptions,
then
what
are
we
left
with.

16
Approximate
that
number,
then,
is
more
than
17
$
250,000,
then
you
may
have
no
­­
then
they
have
to
18
negotiate.

19
One
of
the
things
that
we
did,
and
we
20
used
regions
9
and
10
as
our
test
case
because
they
21
have
­­
region
10
is
our
test
case
because
they
22
have
the
larger
number
of
Tribes,
they
had
well
23
over
270
or
had
270­
plus.
When
we
did
the
24
exemptions
with
them,
as
a
result
at
the
end
of
66
McCORKLE
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1
everything,
when
we
rode
out,
they
only
had
25
2
Tribes
left
to
negotiate.

3
So
that
being
what
we
thought
our
4
worse
case
scenario
was,
we
were
thinking
in
the
5
other
regions
that
did
not
have
as
many,
that
this
6
would
be
a
fair
assessment
of
what
we
will
probably
7
see
throughout
the
rest
of
the
country.

8
MS.
PATRICK:
And
the
processes
that
we
use
to
9
back
them
out
is
exactly
what
she
described.

10
MS.
BROWN:
We
ran
the
numbers,
backed
them
out
11
by
program,
and
then
saw
what
we
came
up
with.

12
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
Next
thing
we
talked
about
13
exemptions
and
we
also
talked
about
the
grace
14
period
for
the
Tribes
concerning
the
rule,
and
that
15
is
probably
because
we
know
the
negotiations
16
processes
that
everybody
has
to
adhere
to.
Not
17
just
the
Tribes,
but
also
our
coordinators
and
also
18
for
our
grant
specialist
that
could
be
something
we
19
are
all
going
to
need
some
time
going
on
and
get
up
20
to
speed
with.
21
We
want
to
make
sure
the
22
understanding
is
just
because
there
is
a
three
year
23
phrase­
in
period,
we
don't
want
everybody
to
come
24
in
on
the
264th
day
on
the
third
year
say
okay,
now
67
McCORKLE
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1
I'm
ready
to
come
in.
No,
no,
no.
Our
desire
is
2
that
this
is
a
developmental
process
in
that
3
education
is
going
on
along
the
way
to
get
4
everybody
up
to
speed,
and
as
the
Tribes
are
ready
5
to
come
on­
board
with
the
negotiations
process,
to
6
go
ahead
and
get
started
to
those
who
have
been
7
identified
as
needing
to
negotiate.
We
don't
want
8
this
mad
rush
again
of
negotiations
to
take
place,

9
so
we
are
hoping
there
truly
will
be
a
phase
in
10
period,
and
by
the
time
we
get
to
the
third
year
11
everybody
is
on­
board.

12
MS.
BROWN:
One
of
the
things
we
will
be
doing
13
is
running
the
numbers
or
asking
each
of
the
14
regions
to
run
the
numbers
to
see
how
this
would
15
apply
to
those
Tribes
that
­­
or
those
regions
that
16
have
Tribes,
so
that
we
can
identify
you
very
early
17
on.
And
once
we
do
that,
we
will
be
asking
you
to
18
let
us
know
what
kind
of
assistance
you
may
need
in
19
order
to
start
building
and
getting
your
20
availability
analysis,
that
process
in
place.

21
Ms.
Thompson,
hold
on
one
minute.

22
MS.
THOMPSON:
Okay.
I
guess
my
question
or
my
23
next
question
is
on
the
availability
studies.
Is
24
it
possible,
let's
just
say
in
region
5
there
are
68
McCORKLE
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1
three
states
that
have
Tribes,
Minnesota,
Michigan
2
and
Wisconsin.
And
let's
say
there
are
some
very
3
large
Tribes
and
some
small
ones.
Let's
say
a
4
large
Tribe
in
Wisconsin
did
an
availability
study,

5
all
right.
Could
the
other
Tribes
in
Wisconsin
6
take
their
rates?

7
MS.
PATRICK:
If
the
other
Tribes
in
Wisconsin
8
are
in
the
same
general
area
and
they
purchase
in
9
the
same
general
vicinity
in
terms
of
geographical
10
location,
if
they
chose
to,
they
most
certainly
11
could.

12
MR.
GARY
SCHUETTPELZ:
Gary
Shuettpelz,

13
Menominee.

14
Probably
more
of
a
question
to
Pat,

15
are
the
Brownfields,
the
Tribe
set
aside,

16
Brownfields
grant,
are
those
continuing?

17
MS.
POLSKI:
Are
they
PPG
eligible?

18
MS.
THOMPSON:
No.
19
MS.
PATRICK:
Brownfields
is
an
SRF
Brownfields
20
grant
only
if
your
loan
total
is
less
than
250K.

21
If
it's
over
250K,
then
they
are
not.
If
you're
22
talking
about
a
specific
scenario.

23
MS.
THOMPSON:
I
don't
think
any
of
them
were
24
more
than
250.

69
McCORKLE
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1
MS.
POLSKI:
I'm
not
talking
about
the
loan
2
program,
I'm
talking
about
the
Tribal
set­
asides
3
funds.

4
MS.
THOMPSON:
The
Brownfields
program
is
not
5
PPE
eligibility.

6
MS.
POLSKI:
Even
the
Tribal
set
aside
program.

7
MS.
THOMPSON:
It
is
not
PPG
eligible.

8
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
The
next
section
is
record
9
keeping
and
reporting.

10
A
recipient
of
a
continuing
11
environmental
program
grant
or
other
annual
grant
12
would
be
required
to
create
and
maintain
a
bidders'

13
list.
Such
a
list
must
be
kept
until
the
grant
14
project
period
has
expired
and
the
recipient
is
no
15
longer
receiving
funding
under
the
grant.

16
The
next
section
is
in
addition,
a
17
recipient
of
EPA
financial
assistance
agreement
to
18
capitalize
a
revolving
loan
fund,
better
known
as
19
Brownfields
SRF,
those
entities
receiving
20
identified
loans
to
create
and
maintain
a
bidders'

21
list
if
the
loan
is
subject
to,
or
chooses
to
22
follow
competitive
bidding
requirements.

23
The
purpose
of
the
bidders'
list
is
24
to
provide
the
recipient
and
entities
receiving
the
70
McCORKLE
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CHICAGO,
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1
identified
loans
who
conduct
competitive
bidding
2
with
as
accurate
of
a
database
as
possible
about
3
the
universe
of
MBE/
WBE
and
non­
MBE/
WBE
prime
and
4
subcontractors.

5
We
have
had
many
comments
about
6
bidders'
list
in
our
language
in
the
rule.
We
are
7
not
very
specific
about
what
information
we
want
to
8
capture.
We
have
gotten
that
comment
and
we
have
9
heard
it
and
we
are
taking
it
to
heart.
So
one
of
10
the
things
we
are
doing
is
we
are
developing
what
11
it
is
we
want
to
see
on
a
bidders'
list.
Or
12
defining
a
bidders'
list
more
specifically.
So
if
13
you
have
any
comments
or
suggestions
beside
that,

14
we
would
appreciate
it.

15
The
next
thing
is
waivers.
We
built
16
our
Rules
the
ability
or
the
OSDBU
director,
too,
17
to
grant
waivers
from
any
requirements
of
Part
33
18
that
are
not
based
on
a
statute
or
Executive
19
Order.

20
To
give
you
an
idea
of
what
the
OSDBU
21
director
cannot
grant
a
waiver
for,
he
or
she
22
cannot
grant
a
waiver
of
the
six
affirmative
steps,

23
and
they
can't
grant
a
waiver
for
the
reporting
24
requirements.
Those
will
not
change.

71
McCORKLE
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1
But
many
of
the
other
provisions
that
2
are
not
based
on
the
statute
or
Executive
Order,

3
the
OSDBU
can
indeed
grant
a
waiver
from
those
4
provisions.

5
Any
questions
before
I
go
to
the
next
6
steps?

7
Okay,
the
next
steps
from
the
8
process,
right
now
this
is
a
proposed
rule
and
we
9
are
very
heavily
soliciting
comments
from
10
everyone.
Right
now
the
comment
period
closes
on
11
January
20,
which
is
next
week.

12
However,
we
were
kind
of
recently
13
invited
to
Alaska
to
do
another
hearing,
and
that
14
hearing
does
not
take
place
until
February.
So
we
15
are
going
to
officially
extend
the
comment
period
16
to
February
28th
to
make
sure
that
everyone
has
17
time
to
get
their
comments
in
and
also
to
give
18
people
in
Alaska
time
to
do
their
comments
and
19
submit
them.

20
Once
the
comment
period
closes,
it
21
will
be
our
responsibility
to
go
back
and
look
at
22
all
the
comments
we
receive
and
we
have
to
develop
23
what
our
disposition
was
on
those
comments.
At
24
that
point
it
goes
back
to
EPA's
internal
processes
72
McCORKLE
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1
and
back
to
occurrence
and
non­
occurrence,
back
and
2
forth
and
what
have
you.
The
next
product
you
will
3
probably
see
is
a
final
rule.

4
In
my
very,
very,
very
positive
5
estimation,
I'm
hoping
this
process
will
be
done
at
6
the
end
of
the
year.
That
is
very
positive
on
my
7
part
because
it's
taking
us
so
long
to
get
to
this
8
point.
But
that's
my
hope.
I
think
positive,
I'm
9
going
to
do
whatever
I
can
to
hopefully
make
that
10
happen.
But
that's
pretty
much
what
we're
looking
11
at.

12
If
you
open
up
your
actual
copy
and
13
the
open
up
the
documents
and
look
on
the
second
14
page,
it
says
how
and
to
whom
to
submit
comments.
15
That
entire
section
gives
you
the
very
detailed
16
steps
you
need
to
take
in
submitting
your
comments,

17
if
you
have
them.
You
can
mail
them,
you
can
fax
18
them,
you
can
e­
mail
them
or
you
can
submit
them
19
via
the
website
that
we
have
in
our
docket,
and
it
20
gives
you
the
instructions
and
step­
by­
step
on
how
21
to
do
that
and
what
our
addresses
are
and
phone
22
numbers
for
submissions
of
comments.
So
definitely
23
refer
to
that
if
later
on
you're
reading
this
and
24
you
read
something
that
you
just
have
to
let
us
73
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
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(
312)
263­
0052
1
know.
Right
here.
This
is
it
right
here.
We
are
2
talking
about
this
document.

3
MR.
SCHUETTPELZ:
I
have
just
a
comment.
If
4
you're
saying
your
best
estimate
is
a
year
before
5
we
see
a
final
rule,
then
we
are
not
talking
about
6
FC
2005,
we
are
talking
FC
2006.

7
MS.
PATRICK:
Exactly.

8
MS.
BROWN:
And
again,
these
changes
don't
come
9
into
effect
until
then,
okay.

10
MS.
PATRICK:
So
for
right
now
we
are
11
continuing
to
operate
as
we
always
have
been.
The
12
Tribes
still
have
to
move
forward,
the
good
faith
13
efforts
are
still
in
place,
you
just
don't
have
to
14
negotiate
right
now.
The
negotiation
part
doesn't
15
kick
in
until
the
rule
kicks
in.
And
also
for
the
16
certification
requirements,
they
don't
kick
in
17
until
the
rule
becomes
final,
okay.

18
Any
other
comments?

19
MS.
WARD:
Alicia
Ward,
grant
management
20
section,
and
if
we
can
just
step
back
just
a
little
21
bit
with
regards
to
reporting
requirements
time
22
frame.

23
Historically
the
reporting
24
requirements
were
quarterly,
whether
there
was
74
McCORKLE
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CHICAGO,
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263­
0052
1
activity
or
not,
whether
there
was
a
negative
2
report
or
positive
report.
The
States
have
3
mentioned
yesterday
they
would
prefer
an
annual
4
reporting
time
frame
period.

5
Can
we
address
in
the
rule
6
specifically
what
the
reporting
time
frame
7
requirement
will
be?

8
MS.
BROWN:
That
is
something
that
we're
taking
9
under
advisement.
We
will
address
when
reporting
10
will
be
under
the
new
rules
in
the
rule.
And
11
yesterday
the
States
said
annually.
There
are
some
12
concerns,
on
the
other
hand,
if
you
wait
that
long,
13
it's
too
late.
So
those
are
the
kinds
of
things
14
that
we're
taking
under
advisement.
Thank
you.

15
One
of
the
other
things
that
we
are
16
looking
at
as
it
relates
to
the
Tribes,

17
availability
studies
were
new
to
us
and
we
have
18
been
doing
them
now
for
how
many
years,
five
19
almost,
and
we
had
to
get
indoctrinated
to
this
20
process.
So
we
recognize
that
this
is
going
to
be
21
something
that
where
the
Tribes
are
going
to
need
22
some
help,
we
had
had
a
couple
of
years
to
kind
of
23
play
around
with
this
and
learn.

24
One
of
the
things
as
the
OSDBU
75
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
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312)
263­
0052
1
director
I
have
been
contemplating
is
whether
or
2
not
we
can
provide
some
kind
of
assistance
to
the
3
Tribes
in
how
you
get
this
done.
That's
with
a
big
4
question
mark,
but
if
you
have
some
thoughts
on
5
that
I
would
be
glad
to
hear
those
so
we
can
take
6
that
under
advisement.

7
MR.
SHUETTPELZ:
Gary
Shuettpelz
from
8
Menomonee.

9
I
think
that
would
be
a
very
good
10
idea
to
provide,
whether
on
a
regional
basis,
at
11
least
some
­­
when
the
rule
goes
into
effect,
at
12
least
some
training
or
a
meeting
with
the
Tribes
13
that
needed
these
things
so
they
have
at
least
some
14
idea
what
is
required
I
think
would
be
very
helpful
15
and
I
would
strongly
recommend
that.

16
MS.
PATRICK:
If
you
turn
in
the
full
rule,
if
17
you
turn
to,
so
you
know,
it's
the
second
to
the
18
last
page,
page
43851,
look
under
section
33.602,

19
and
what
we
are
currently
suggesting
is
that
the
20
reporting
is
basically
going
to
be
the
same
as
it
21
was
before.
It's
going
to
be
annual
for
those
22
receiving
continuing
environmental
program
grants,

23
institutions
of
higher
education
and
other
24
non­
profits,
if
they
are
receiving
under
financial
76
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
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263­
0052
1
under
40FCR
part
three,
they
will
report
on
an
2
annual
basis.
Everyone
else
shall
report
3
quarterly.
That
is
the
way
it's
in
here
now.
If
4
people
have
suggestions
for
something
else,
then
5
let
us
know.

6
Any
questions?
Okay.
There
being
no
7
further
issues,
we
are
done
unless
you
have
some
8
other
things
you
want
to
ask
us
or
talk
to
us
9
about.

10
MS.
BROWN:
One
the
things
I
said
I
would
do
11
just
as
we
did
yesterday
for
the
businesses
center
12
here,
if
anybody
who
is
interested
in
doing
EPA
and
13
direct
procurement,
I
can
talk
to
you
about
what
14
the
process
is.

15
Primarily,
there
are
two
ways
to
do
16
business
with
EPA,
directly
and
directly.
What
we
17
have
done
today
is
the
indirect
portion.
Many
18
people
didn't
know
or
recognize
we
had
that
19
capacity
or
this
ability.
In
the
Agency
we
have
20
spent
$
1.2
billion
annually
in
direct
procurement,

21
and
2.4
­­
I
mean
$
4.2
billion
annually
in
grants.

22
Money
is
green,
and
as
a
small
business
owner
you
23
just
need
to
know
where
to
go
to
find
it
and
how
24
the
process
is.

77
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1
So
it
was
important
that
we
at
least
2
include
you
and
provide
this
information
to
you
so
3
that
you
know
there
are
other
opportunities
4
indirectly,
but
we
can
talk
to
you
about
the
direct
5
procurement
part.
If
that's
the
case
and
if
we
6
don't
have
any
more
questions
on
the
rule,
any
7
other
comments
or
questions?
Now
is
the
time.

8
And
please,
by
all
means
take
this
9
back,
read
it,
share
it
with
your
Tribe
members
and
10
community,
get
their
input
and
get
your
comments
in
11
to
us,
because
those
comments
are
what
we
will
take
12
into
consideration
as
we
finalize
the
rule.

13
We
started
this
process
six
years
14
ago,
we've
had
a
number
of
meetings
around
the
15
country,
and
I
can
assure
you
from
those
meetings
16
that's
how
we
came
up
with
suggestions
that
were
17
made
from
the
participants
in
those
meetings,
how
18
we
came
up
with
this
document.
And
we
still
see
19
there
is
some
tweaking
that
needs
to
be
done.
But
20
we
really
do
need
to
hear
from
you
so
I
invite
you
21
to
get
your
comments
in.

22
Yes,
sir,
your
name?

23
MR.
BELL:
My
name
is
Bryan
Bell
from
24
Innovation
Technical
Solutions,
and
this
is
in
78
McCORKLE
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1
regard
to
doing
the
indirect
business
with
the
2
EPA.

3
Is
there
a
location
that
we
can
go
to
4
to
locate
who
receives
the
grants
and
what
they
may
5
be
using
them
for?
We
are
an
8(
a)
Native
6
American­
owned
business,
we
are
not
currently
not
a
7
recipient
of
the
EPA
grant.

8
MS.
BROWN:
Yes.
You
can
get
that
information
9
off
the
website
www.
EPA.
gov/
GAD/
GAD.
No,
it's
10
forward
slash
OGD,
then
once
you
get
to
the
OGD
11
site,
there
is
a
section
over
there
to
check
for
12
GAD,
which
is
the
grants
administration
division.

13
Once
you
get
there,
that
will
allow
you
to
search
14
different
grants
and
stuff.

15
MS.
BROWN:
Now,
it
will
tell
you
who
the
grant
16
recipients
are
and
the
amount.
It
may
not
go
into
17
a
lot
of
detail
as
to
exactly
what
the
grant
is
18
for,
but
then
you
can
do
your
research
from
there.

19
MEMBER
OF
THE
AUDIENCE:
Yes,
ma'am.
I
just
20
want
to
say
to
the
EPA
thank
you
very
much
for
21
allowing
the
Tribes
to
be
a
part
of
the
process
and
22
giving
the
opportunities
to
give
you
input,

23
particularly
on
things
that
certainly
effect
us
and
24
the
reservations.

79
McCORKLE
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1
MS.
BROWN:
Thank
you.
You're
welcome.

2
Any
other
comments?

3
Again,
you
all
know
Sharon
Green,

4
this
lady
in
the
back.
You
need
to
know
her,
she's
5
your
MBE/
WBE
coordinator
for
the
businesses,
in
6
particular
that
is
your
point
of
contact
in
doing
7
business
with
the
EPA.
We
are
as
well,
and
we
will
8
talk
about
this
a
little
bit
later
with
the
9
capability
statements
and
your
information
on
what
10
is
it
that
you
do
and
how
you
do
business.

11
I'm
very
interested
in
the
two
firms
12
that
identified
you
do
certification.
I
need
to
13
talk
to
you
to
find
out
exactly
what
that
process
14
is
and
what
it
is
that
you
do,
because
we
may
need
15
some
additional
assistance
and
we
want
to
let
the
16
Tribal
community
help
us
in
some
of
those
17
instances.

18
One
of
the
things
that
I'm
really
19
looking
at
is
probably
doing
two
contracts,
maybe
20
three,
parceling
off
the
country.
Having
21
organizations
to
help
us
as
we
go
out
and
train
and
22
also
identify
the
needs
of
the
Tribes
in
trying
to
23
get
a
better
handle
on
exactly
what
the
needs
are.

24
But
I
need
to
make
sure
you
all
are
80
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
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0052
1
communicating
to
us.
We
can't
help
you
and
I
can't
2
know
what
it
is
that
I
need
to
consider
if
I
don't
3
know.
So
I
need
you
all
to
holler.
Okay.
So
to
4
speak
up,
to
let
me
know
where
you
see
a
need
as
it
5
relates
to
the
rule
and
how
it
may
impact
your
6
community,
okay.
If
you
all
would
do
that,
that
7
would
help
us
a
lot.
Anything
else?
Okay.

8
This
will
end
this
portion.

9
(
Whereupon,
the
recorded
portion
10
of
the
meeting
was
adjourned.)

11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
81
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
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312)
263­
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1
STATE
OF
ILLINOIS
)

2
)
SS:

3
COUNTY
OF
C
O
O
K
)

4
5
April
T.
Hansen,
being
first
duly
sworn,
6
on
oath
says
that
she
is
a
court
reporter
doing
7
business
in
the
City
of
Chicago;
and
that
she
8
reported
in
shorthand
the
proceedings
of
said
9
hearing,
and
that
the
foregoing
is
a
true
and
10
correct
transcript
of
her
shorthand
notes
so
taken
11
as
aforesaid,
and
contains
the
excerpt
of
12
proceedings
given
at
said
hearing.

13
14
______________________________

15
Certified
Shorthand
Reporter
16
17
SUBSCRIBED
AND
SWORN
TO
18
before
me
this______
day
19
of________________
2004.

20
21
22
_______________________

23
Notary
Public
24
82
McCORKLE
COURT
REPORTERS,
INC.
CHICAGO,
ILLINOIS
­
(
312)
263­
0052
