0001
1
THE
AMERICAN
INDIAN/
ALASKA
NATIVE
2
PUBLIC
HEARING,
COUNSELING
SESSION
3
&
BUSINESS
FAIR
4
NATIONAL
CENTER
FOR
AMERICAN
INDIAN
5
ENTERPRISE
DEVELOPMENT
6
7
TRANSCRIPT
OF
PROCEEDINGS
8
January
8,
2004
9
10
The
above­
entitled
conference
was
held
11
at
the
Northern
Hotel,
Billings,
Montana,
on
12
January
7
and
8,
2004.
13
14
15
APPEARANCES:
16
Jeanette
L.
Brown,
Director
U.
S.
Environmental
Protection
Agency
17
Office
of
Small
and
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization
18
1200
Pennsylvania
Avenue,
N.
W.
Washington,
D.
C.
20460
19
Kimberly
Patrick
20
Attorney
Advisor
U.
S.
Environmental
Protection
Agency
21
Office
of
Small
and
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization
22
1200
Pennsylvania
Avenue,
N.
W.
Washington,
D.
C.
20460
23
24
25
0002
1
P
R
O
C
E
E
D
I
N
G
S
2
9:
15
a.
m.
3
MS.
BROWN:
Good
morning.
Well,
it's
4
time
for
day
two,
and
I'm
hoping
that
­­
as
I
5
left
last
night,
a
lot
of
you
all
were
still
6
networking,
and
that's
a
good
thing.
And
I'm
7
hoping
for
today
you
all
will
get
a
chance
to
8
continue
to
do
that
and
build
on
the
information
9
that
was
provided
yesterday.
10
Today
we're
going
to
take
for
our
11
portion
a
different
turn
here.
Yesterday,
I
12
gave
you
a
lot
of
information,
and
we
brought
in
13
speakers
from
various
other
agencies
and
14
different
companies
to
talk
to
you
about
direct
15
procurement.
16
Yesterday
I
told
you
there
were
two
17
ways
primarily
to
do
business
with
EPA,
18
directly,
and
we
talked
about
that
yesterday,
19
and
now
I'm
going
to
talk
about
the
indirect
20
piece
and
the
proposed
rule,
because
this
is
21
part
of
our
public
policy­
making
process.
22
There
is
a
proposed
rule
in
the
Federal
23
Register.
It
was
issued
July
24th
on
this
24
program,
and
we
have
three
more
hearings
to
do
25
next
week,
the
week
after
that,
and
then
Alaska
0003
1
in
February,
and
we
will
be
done.
2
We
want
to
talk
to
you
about
what
the
3
changes
are,
in
particular
as
it
relates
to
4
tribes,
because
this
is
going
to
be
different.
5
These
are
tribal
entities
that
are
getting
6
monies
from
EPA.
And
then
also,
there's
the
7
minority,
woman­
owned
businesses.
Remember,
I
8
said
yesterday
money
is
green.
You
just
need
to
9
know
where
to
get
it.
10
If
EPA
has
a
budget
of
$
1.2
billion
11
going
out
in
contracts
and
four
times
that
in
12
grants,
you
need
to
follow
the
money.
So,
13
under
our
grants,
there
may
be
procurement
14
opportunities,
and
we
will
share
with
you
15
information
about
that,
because
each
state,
the
16
tribes,
non­
profits,
colleges
and
universities,
17
local
municipalities,
all
get
monies
from
EPA
to
18
do
a
number
of
things,
with
water
treatment
19
centers,
all
kinds
of
stuff.
20
So
with
that,
if
the
grantee
chooses
­­
21
mind
you,
they
have
to
choose
to
do
it.
They're
22
not
obligated
to
contract,
but
if
they
go
out
23
and
contract
in
any
one
of
four
categories
­
24
equipment,
construction,
services
or
supplies
­
25
then
our
program
kicks
in,
and
we
encourage
them
0004
1
to
use
minority
and
woman­
owned
businesses.
2
So
what
were
those­­
this
is
a
quiz,
3
what
were
those
four
categories?
4
AUDIENCE:
Equipment.
5
MS.
BROWN:
Equipment,
construction,
6
services,
supplies.
7
MS.
PATRICK:
Wait
a
minute,
there's
a
8
prize
that
goes
along
with
questions.
We're
9
running
out
of
ducks
because
the
ducks
have
10
become
quite
a
commodity,
and
so
the
ducks
are
11
now
prizes.
12
The
first
person
to
speak
on
that
13
answer
was
this
gentleman
here.
Do
you
already
14
have
a
duck?
15
AUDIENCE:
I
do.
16
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay,
then
you're
17
disqualified.
18
(
General
laughter.)
19
MS.
PATRICK:
And
then
the
next
person
20
that
answered,
do
you
have
a
duck?
21
AUDIENCE:
No.
22
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay,
sir,
you
are
the
23
proud
owner
of
the
cowboy
duck.
He's
all
yours.
24
MS.
BROWN:
There's
a
story
behind
the
25
ducks,
and
quite
frankly,
it
came
from
Maurice
0005
1
Valasquez,
who
is
the
MBE/
WBE
Coordinator
for
2
this
region.
3
We
go
around
the
country
a
lot,
and
we
4
were
looking
for,
trying
to
find
something
that
5
would
draw
attention
to
our
table
when
we
go
6
around
the
country.
And
us
being
EPA,
we
have
7
some
restrictions
on
how
we
can
print,
and
some
8
of
the
other
agencies
had
full­
blown
color,
all
9
kinds
of
stuff,
it
was
glossy,
but
we
had
some
10
restrictions,
and
ours
are
basically
black
and
11
white.
12
So
when
we
sit
there,
we
do
have
our
13
doing
business
book,
that's
about
as
flashy
as
14
we
get.
So
it
wasn't
drawing
attention
to
our
15
table.
So
Maurice
said,
why
don't
you
get
some
16
ducks?
We
said,
ducks?
He
said,
yeah.
I
said
17
I
don't
know,
Maurice,
what
are
you
talking
18
about?
He
said
let
me
find
them
and
I'll
get
19
them
to
you
and
tell
me
if
you
like
them.
20
So
there's
a
series
of
these
ducks.
We
21
get
­­
oh,
we
don't
have
that
many
left.
22
There's
about
eight
of
them.
Some
are
red,
23
white
and
blue
with
flags
and
girl
ducks
and
boy
24
ducks,
construction
hat
ducks,
baseball
ducks,
25
and
we
use
these
as
our
little
mascot,
I
guess
0006
1
for
the
EPA.
We
have
one
here,
Small
Business
2
Making
a
Difference,
and
we
have
to
put
our
3
website
on
it
and
it's
been
approved
by
OGC,
so
4
this
is
what
we
give
out.
And
we
get
so
many
5
hits
on
our
website
for
ducks.
6
I
use
this
internally
as
well
as
7
externally.
When
I
meet
with
the
program
8
offices,
the
project
managers,
they
get
a
duck
9
when
they
are
strong
supporters
of
the
program.
10
We've
also
since
then
incorporated
into
11
our
award
ceremony,
our
annual
award
ceremony
12
with
the
administrators,
there
is
a
crystal
duck
13
that's
awarded
to
the
Program
Office
and/
or
the
14
region
with
the
highest
number
or
percentage
in
15
their
goals
in
terms
of
accomplishment.
16
So
this
has
been
a
tremendous
seller
17
for
us,
so
that's
a
prized
commodity,
and
18
especially
because
I'm
limited,
my
staff
limits
19
me
on
how
many
I
can
bring
out
because
we
don't
20
have
enough
to
go
around.
So
that's
the
story
21
behind
the
ducks.
22
Anyway,
yesterday
I
talked
to
you
about
23
doing
business
directly
or
indirectly
and
today
24
we're
going
to
talk
about
the
rule.
But
before
25
I
do
that,
there's
one
thing
that
I
did
not
0007
1
think
I
mentioned
and
I
think
I
need
to
say
to
2
you,
because
many
of
you
have
since
come
to
me
3
and
talked
about
being
subcontractors
and
some
4
of
the
problems
that
you
have
encountered
5
working
with
some
of
the
prime
contractors
and
6
the
treatment
that
you're
getting.
7
The
thing
that
I
would
caution
you
on,
8
and
would
strongly
suggest
you
do
is
to
make
9
sure
you
know
what
you're
getting
when
you
sign
10
up
for
subcontracts.
Read
the
fine
print
in
11
those
agreements
that
you
are
making
with
those
12
prime
contractors.
Make
sure,
because
one
13
thing
we
have
come
to
see,
what
they
talk
about
14
at
the
table
and
what
you
might
shake
your
hand
15
on,
might
be
something
different
when
the
16
contract
is
awarded.
17
You
really
need
to
make
sure
you're
18
talking
to
your
attorneys,
not
just
lip
service
19
in
terms
of
if
I
get
a
contract
you
will
get
so
20
many
hours.
You
need
to
know
how
much
work
and
21
in
what
area
you
will
be
working,
and
you
need
22
something
in
writing
to
that
effect.
23
A
handshake
in
some
people's,
some
24
arenas
may
not
mean
a
lot.
It
means
a
lot
to
25
me,
but
in
a
lot
of
other
places,
it
may
not
be
0008
1
worth
anything.
So
you
really
need
to
know,
2
because
what
we
see
is
a
lot
of
the
contractors,
3
minority
and
small
woman­
owned
businesses,
come
4
into
us
and
say
they
promised
me
this
and
they
5
used
me
to
win
the
award,
but
once
the
award
was
6
made,
I
haven't
gotten
anything.
And
when
they
7
read
the
fine
print,
oh,
oh,
it's
not
in
there.
8
So
after
the
excitement
wears
off,
and
9
hopefully
that
will
be
very
soon
after
you
talk
10
with
them,
make
sure
you
really
know
and
11
understand
what
it
is
you
have
agreed
to,
and
12
make
sure
it's
in
writing.
If
you
have
a
good
13
attorney,
make
sure
they
look
at
that
and
make
14
sure
they
understand
what
your
obligation
is
to
15
them
and
what
their
obligation
is
to
you.
16
Because
all
too
often
what
you
heard
17
yesterday,
for
prime
contractors
any
contract
18
award
over
$
500,000,
they
have
to
have
a
19
subcontracting
plan,
and
in
that
plan
they
have
20
to
identify
the
type
of
work
that
they're
going
21
to
do
with
minority,
woman­
owned,
small
22
disadvantaged,
HUBZone,
service
disabled.
They
23
report
back
to
us,
and
that's
throughout
the
24
entire
Federal
Government,
that's
not
just
EPA.
25
But
you
need
to
make
sure
you
understand
what
0009
1
you're
signing
up
to.
2
Any
questions?
Comments?
3
(
No
response.)
4
All
right.
Now
we're
ready
for
the
5
proposed
rule
hearing
portion
today,
and
we
want
6
to
talk
to
you
about
the
proposed
changes
that
7
we're
making
to
our
program,
hopefully
to
make
8
it
stronger.
It
may
not
be
as
strong
as
some
9
people
would
like
it
to
be,
but
we're
thinking
10
it's
going
to
be
a
lot
better
than
what
it
is
11
now.
12
EPA,
as
a
result
of
the
Adarand
13
decision,
that
was
a
decision
that
came
out
of
14
the
Supreme
Court
back
in
1995
when
there
was
a
15
challenge
to
the
state
of
Colorado
state
program
16
on
government
contracting.
There
was
a
17
challenge
to
how
that
process
was
done.
A
18
non­
minority
challenged
some
price
preferences
19
that
were
given
to
a
minority
bid,
and
therefore
20
they
won.
It
was
challenged,
and
as
a
result
we
21
have
the
Supreme
Court
decision
which
now
22
requires,
or
did
require
some
changes
to
how
we
23
carry
out
our
government
contracting.
24
Now
we
cannot
just
forcefully
impose
25
goals.
It's
got
to
be
based
on
the
availability
0010
1
of
minorities
and
women
in
a
geographic
2
location.
It's
got
to
be
tied
to
something.
3
So
we
recognize
and
understand
throughout
the
4
country
those
goals
are
going
to
be
very
5
widespread
because
it
depends
on
where
6
minorities
and
women
are
located
and
the
types
7
of
businesses
that
they
are
in.
8
For
example,
in
Chicago,
which
is
where
9
we
are
next
week,
their
goal
may
be
30%
based
on
10
the
number
of
minorities
and
women
in
that
11
geographic
location.
But
in
North
Dakota,
it
12
could
be
2%
based
on
the
number
of
minorities
13
and
women
in
that
geographic
location.
14
So
we
use
things
like
the
disparity
15
studies,
availability
analysis,
so
this
is
16
completely
different
from
how
we
did
business
in
17
the
past.
We
just
basically
said,
and
we
would
18
negotiate
goals
with
the
states,
the
grant
19
recipients,
we
didn't
negotiate
with
tribes,
and
20
we'll
talk
about
some
of
the
changes
that
are
21
coming,
or
the
trust
territories.
22
Basically
our
negotiations
went,
you
23
had
10%
last
year,
do
you
think
you
can
do
that
24
this
year?
They
said
yes
or
no.
They
said
no,
25
we
can
we
do
8,
we
said
okay
and
that's
what
we
0011
1
stuck
into
the
grant.
2
People
need
to
understand
as
grant
3
recipients,
when
you
receive
this
money,
there
4
is
an
obligation
on
our
part
and
yours
as
the
5
grant
recipient,
and
there
could
be
challenge
6
because
these
kinds
of
programs,
although
we
7
don't
consider
it
an
affirmative
action
program,
8
many
people
do.
And
you
see
in
particular
out
9
on
the
west
coast,
in
places
like
Seattle
and
in
10
California,
programs
that
make
reference
to
11
minorities
are
going
away.
Like
they
used
to
12
have
minority
development
agencies,
they
no
13
longer
have
many
of
those
in
some
of
those
14
states.
The
states
have
decided
that
race
is
15
not
a
factor.
16
We
don't
consider
this
to
be
a
minority
17
program,
we
consider
it
to
be
an
outreach
18
program.
We're
saying
that
minorities
and
women
19
should
be
included
in
the
process
and
should
be
20
afforded
an
opportunity
to
participate,
but
you
21
can't
do
that
as
minority
women
and
minority
22
business
owners
if
you
don't
know
what
the
23
process
is.
The
good
old
boy
network
system
is
24
alive
and
well
in
many
portions
of
the
country
25
and
we
recognize
that.
0012
1
We're
saying
when
you
get
federal
2
money,
you
need
to
open
up
the
process
and
be
3
inclusive
so
that
minorities
and
women
are
4
included.
That's
not
to
say
that
minorities
and
5
women
are
bringing
inferior
products
or
services
6
to
the
table.
We're
saying
that
as
minority
7
business
owners
you
have
to
come
fully
equipped,
8
ready
and
able
to
do
the
job.
9
We
recognize
and
understand
that
you're
10
out
there,
so
we're
tired
of
excuses
saying
they
11
can't
find
us,
they
can't
find
you,
because
look
12
at
what's
in
this
room
today,
you
do
exist.
And
13
so
any
grant
recipient
from
EPA's
funding
is
14
encouraged
to
follow
six
affirmative
steps
or
15
good
faith
efforts
to
ensure
that
minorities
and
16
women
are
included
in
the
process.
17
As
a
result
of
the
Adarand
decision,
18
the
Federal
Government
did
review
the
prior
19
administration,
I
think
you
heard
mend
it,
not
20
end
it,
part
of
that
process
they
went
out
and
21
did
a
review
of
all
of
the
programs
to
see
if
we
22
met
the
federal
standard,
and
we
did
not.
We
23
had
some
changes
that
we
had
to
make,
and
as
a
24
result
of
that,
you
have
the
proposed
rule.
25
So
this
is
what
we're
proposing
to
do
0013
1
and
today
we'll
talk
to
you
about
these
changes
2
and
how
it
may
impact
you
all
as
minority
3
contractors
and
as
grant
recipients
in
the
case
4
of
tribes
and
the
trust
territories.
5
By
all
means
we
want
questions,
and
I
6
really
do
mean
that.
And
if
you're
not
sure
or
7
don't
understand,
ask.
We
started
this
process
8
probably
about
three
years
ago,
four
years
ago,
9
public
policy
in
the
making.
10
We've
had
proposed
hearings.
We've
had
11
a
draft
proposed
rule.
We've
had
several
12
meetings
in
Albuquerque
and
other
parts
of
the
13
country.
As
a
result
of
those
very
early
14
meetings,
we
changed
the
way
that
we
were
going
15
to
proceed,
and
so
it
was
comments
from
everyday
16
people
like
you
all
that
caused
us
to
shake
and
17
come
up
with
this
final
product.
And
so
now,
18
this
is
not
final,
this
is
the
proposed
rule
19
now,
but
I
need
more
comments
from
you,
and
so
20
that's
why
we're
here
today.
21
So
right
now,
Kimberly,
I'm
not
going
22
to
talk
as
much,
Kimberly
will
get
a
chance
to
23
talk
so
she's
going
to
go
over
the
major
changes
24
to
the
rule.
This
is
the
complete
proposed
rule
25
here.
We
have
also
given
you
a
draft
summary
of
0014
1
the
major
elements
of
the
proposed
rule,
and
2
this
is
what
we're
going
to
go
through.
3
I
won't
go
through
this
document
here,
4
but
we'll
go
through
this
one.
This
is
5
available
for
you
and
you
can
also
get
it
from
6
our
website.
The
comment
period
closes
January
7
20th,
but
we're
looking
to
extend
it
to
include
8
the
hearing
in
Alaska
that
we
were
just
invited
9
to.
So
we
will
be
working
on
that
when
we
get
10
back
to
include
probably
through
the
end
of
11
February,
February
28th
at
least.
February
28th
12
is
when
the
comment
period
will
close.
13
Again,
if
you
have
questions
or
14
comments,
I
would
strongly
encourage
you
to
get
15
those
into
us.
We
will
be
taking
notes.
We
16
have
a
court
reporter
here
today,
and
she
will
17
be
recording
these
proceedings
so
that
we
can
18
take
it
back
and
digest
what
was
given
to
us,
19
because
I
can't
remember
everything
now.
It
20
gets
kind
of
cloudy
for
me
being
on
the
road
as
21
much
as
we
are.
But
to
make
sure
that
we
22
incorporate
and
really
listen
to
the
comments
23
that
are
being
made.
24
So
if
you
have
a
comment
or
question,
25
we're
going
to
ask
that
you
use
the
mike,
that
0015
1
you
tell
us
your
name
and
the
company
and/
or
the
2
tribe
that
you
represent.
And
every
time
you
3
speak,
I
need
you
to
say
that
so
she
can
get
4
that
so
we
will
know
where
the
comment
is
coming
5
from,
and
then
so
we
can
be
responsive.
Okay?
6
Any
questions?
7
MS.
PATRICK:
Let's
first
do
a
couple
8
of
legal
disclaimer
kind
of
thing
here.
9
It
needs
to
be
made
very,
very
clear
as
10
we've
gone
across
the
country,
particularly
with
11
the
hearings
we've
had
with
tribes,
we've
had
to
12
be
very,
very
clear
in
stating
that
we
do
not
13
consider
these
hearings
consultation.
So
I
have
14
to
say
that,
put
it
out
and
make
it
clear.
15
We
understand
that
we
are
not
talking
16
to
tribal
leaders.
We
are
not
talking
to
people
17
who
can
make
decisions
for
the
tribe,
but
we
18
want
to
still
get
to
the
tribal
community
and
19
find
out
what
your
comments
are.
This
is
what
20
this
is,
an
opportunity
to
get
feedback
and
to
21
hear
what's
going
on.
So
we
want
to
respect
22
the
fact
that
we
are
dealing
with
sovereign
23
nations
and
the
fact
that
we
have
consultation
24
policies
that
are
floating
out
and
what
the
25
requirements
are,
so
we
want
to
point
out
that
0016
1
this
is
not
a
consultation
opportunity.
2
That
being
said,
all
the
fun
legal
3
stuff
out
of
the
way,
the
first
major
change
4
that
we're
proposing
is
a
name
change.
5
Currently
many
of
you
may
know
of
our
program
as
6
the
MBE/
WBE
program.
We're
changing
that
to
be
7
the
disadvantaged
business
enterprise
program.
8
We're
doing
that
to
be
consistent
with
the
9
Department
of
Transportation
because
their
10
program
and
our
program
are
very
similar,
and
11
because
their
program
is
bigger
and
more
well
12
known
than
ours
is,
we
figured
it
would
be
good
13
to
start
to
get
some
consistency
in
the
14
government
because
a
lot
of
times
you
see
15
something
in
different
agencies
and
everybody
is
16
all
over
the
place,
so
we
want
to
get
some
17
consistency
with
the
name.
So
that's
why
we
18
changed
it,
and
that's
the
name
that's
inclusive
19
of
everyone,
women,
minorities,
all
of
that
is
20
under
one
name.
21
The
next
major
change
which
will
really
22
affect
a
lot
of
business
owners
is
the
fact
that
23
for
the
very
first
time,
EPA
will
be
requiring
24
certification
for
the
businesses
under
this
25
program.
In
the
past
we
would
accept
0017
1
self­
certifications.
That
basically
meant
you
2
were
whatever
you
said
you
were.
If
you
said
3
you
were
a
minority,
we
took
that
on
face
value,
4
believed
it
and
moved
on.
5
Because
of
the
Adarand
decision,
we
6
need
a
whole
lot
more
to
back
up
decisions
that
7
we
make.
We
need
to
be
able
to
show
some
type
8
of
proof
that
the
people
that
we're
dealing
with
9
indeed
are
minority,
disadvantaged,
woman­
owned,
10
that
type
of
thing,
so
we
have
to
go
behind
a
11
general
self­
certification.
12
To
that
end,
EPA,
because
we
are
small
13
and
our
program
is
small,
we
really
don't
want
14
to
get
heavy
into
the
certification
business.
15
That's
just
a
lot
to
do.
So
what
we've
decided
16
to
do
is
try
to
make
it
as
easy
as
possible,
not
17
only
for
us,
but
also
for
business
owners
who
18
may
currently
hold
certifications
from
different
19
sources.
20
With
our
program,
we're
going
to
accept
21
SBA
certifications.
We're
going
to
accept
22
Department
of
Transportation
certifications
as
23
long
as
the
U.
S.
citizenship
requirement
is
met.
24
We're
going
to
accept
certifications
from
state
25
government,
municipalities,
localities,
and
also
0018
1
from
tribes,
because
we
do
know
that
there
are
2
some
tribes
that
do
certify
the
tribally­
owned
3
businesses
that
are
in
their
community,
provided
4
that
those
certifications
meet
our
standards,
5
meet
the
standards
that
are
laid
out
in
our
rule
6
for
eligibility
and
everything
like
that.
7
So
did
everyone
get
that?
That's
very,
8
very
important,
because
to
you,
that
means
if
9
you
already
are
8(
a)
certified,
you
don't
have
10
to
go
through
EPA's
whole
process.
You
show
us
11
the
evidence
of
your
8(
a)
certification,
we
look
12
at
that,
we
accept
it,
we
give
you
an
EPA
13
certification,
process
over.
14
If
you
have
a
DOT
certification,
you
15
show
us
that
plus
proof
of
U.
S.
citizenship,
16
you're
done.
You
have
an
EPA
certification.
17
Now,
we
do
know
that
because
our
18
program
does
have
some
areas
where
it's
unique
19
and
different
from
DOT
and
SBA's
program,
we
20
know
right
off
the
bat
that
there
are
five
basic
21
areas
where
we'll
have
to
certify
the
matter
of
22
first
impression
because
we're
the
only
ones
23
that
certify
those
entities.
24
First
and
foremost,
we
know
DOT
does
25
certify
woman­
owned
businesses,
so
if
a
0019
1
woman­
owned
business
has
a
DOT
certification,
2
that's
great,
you
don't
have
to
go
through
any
3
other
process
as
long
as
you're
a
U.
S.
citizen.
4
However,
EPA
will
be
certifying
woman­
owned
5
businesses
and
minority
owned
businesses
that
do
6
not
meet
the
SBA,
DOT
size
standards.
That's
7
another
important
thing;
EPA
does
not
have
a
8
size
standard.
This
is
only
for
procurement
9
under
EPA
grants.
This
does
not
in
any
way
apply
10
to
direct
procurement.
That's
a
huge
11
distinction.
A
lot
of
people
get
confused
with
12
that.
This
is
only
under
procurements
under
EPA
13
grant.
14
We
will
be
certifying
disabled
American
15
owned
businesses.
Private
and
voluntary
16
organizations
controlled
by
individuals
who
are
17
socially
and
economically
disadvantaged
under
18
our
10%
statute
will
be
certified
entities
which
19
are
certified
under
criteria
which
are
20
inconsistent
with
EPA's
DBE
program
criteria,
8%
21
and
10%
statutes.
I'm
going
to
explain
that
22
because
I
know
it's
a
little
confusing.
23
Finally,
any
entity
claiming
that
it's
24
owned
or
controlled
by
socially
and
economically
25
disadvantaged
individuals
under
EPA's
8%
0020
1
statute.
2
I
wish
I
was
around
when
some
of
these
3
statutes
were
written.
We
have
an
inconsistency
4
in
this
particular
part
of
our
program.
Under
5
our
8%
statute,
a
business
has
to
be
owned
or
6
controlled
by
a
minority
or
woman.
7
Under
our
10%
statute,
the
business
has
8
to
be
owned
and
controlled
which
is
consistent
9
with
SBA
and
DOT
and
everybody
else.
Well,
10
because
we
can't
go
back
and
rewrite
the
11
statute,
because
statutes
control
us
and
it
12
works
its
way
down
from
there,
we
have
to
have
a
13
program
that
encompasses
both.
So
that's
why
14
our
statutes
are
written
to
know
that
we
are
the
15
only
ones
that
will
certify
an
entity
that
is
16
owned
or
controlled
by
a
minority
or
woman.
So
17
that's
why
that's
a
separate
category,
and
that
18
sort
of
applies
to
the
d.
and
e.
part
that's
19
under
that
particular
section.
It's
worded
a
20
little
tricky,
but
that's
the
explanation
for
21
it.
22
Questions?
None.
23
Okay,
who
can
name
for
me
at
least
two
24
entities
that
EPA
will
be
certifying
as
a
matter
25
of
first
impression.
0021
1
(
Audience
answer
inaudible.)
2
MS.
BROWN:
She
said
it
first.
3
MS.
PATRICK:
She
said
it
first.
Well,
4
that
really
wasn't
the
right
answer.
Let
me
5
restate
the
question.
The
question
was
name
two
6
entities
that
EPA
will
be
certifying
as
a
matter
7
of
first
impression,
two
entities
that
only
EPA
8
will
be
certifying.
9
(
Audience
answer
inaudible.)
10
MS.
PATRICK:
No,
you
got
one
half.
11
AUDIENCE:
Disabled
American
owned
12
businesses.
13
MS.
PATRICK:
And
give
me
one
more.
14
AUDIENCE:
Woman­
owned
businesses.
15
MS.
PATRICK:
There
you
go.
Do
you
16
already
have
a
duck?
17
AUDIENCE:
No,
I
don't.
18
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
19
Okay,
another
part
of
the
certification
20
requirement
is
that
we're
going
with
a
$
750,000
21
net
worth
standard,
which
means
if
your
net
22
worth
is
less
than
$
750,000,
excluding
your
23
personal
residence
and
your
personal
interest
in
24
the
business,
then
you
are
eligible
to
be
25
certified
under
our
program.
0022
1
AUDIENCE:
Didn't
it
used
to
be
250?
2
MS.
PATRICK:
Actually,
250
is
the
8(
a)
3
Program
which
is
the
initial
eligibility
for
4
them
and
so
we
dropped
out
the
lower
ceiling
and
5
we're
going
with
just
the
higher
ceiling
that
6
they
use
for
8(
a).
It's
also
consistent
with
7
DOT's
program
as
well.
8
Okay,
the
next
thing
is
the
good
faith
9
efforts,
which
Jeanette
has
already
talked
about
10
to
some
degree.
11
The
good
faith
efforts
are
a
part
of
12
the
terms
and
conditions
of
every
single
grant
13
that
goes
out
from
EPA.
If
you
are
a
grant
14
recipient,
this
portion
is
extremely
important
15
to
you.
If
you
are
a
business
owner
it's
16
important
to
you
as
well
because
you
can
also
17
push
back
from
the
other
end
and
say
well,
hey,
18
you
know,
I
know
you
have
these
requirements,
19
have
you
met
them?
Have
you
gone
out
and
done
20
what
you're
supposed
to
do
to
look
for
me?
If
21
you
find
out
something
is
happening
with
a
22
contract,
with
a
grant,
you
can
ask
those
kind
23
of
questions
when
you
are
empowered
and
you
know
24
what
the
responsibilities
are.
25
But
if
you're
a
grant
recipient,
it's
0023
1
very
important
to
know
that
because
our
program
2
is
outreach,
we
don't
have
quotas.
We
can't
3
make
people
do
things,
but
we
can
make
you
at
4
least
look.
We
can't
say
you
have
to
go
with
a
5
certain
number
of
minority,
woman­
owned
6
businesses,
but
we
can
say
you
need
to
make
the
7
effort
to
see
if
they're
out
there,
include
them
8
in
the
process.
9
The
six
affirmative
steps,
the
six
good
10
faith
efforts
is
another
area
where
EPA
is
11
trying
to
be
consistent.
In
one
statute
we
were
12
calling
it
the
six
affirmative
steps,
in
another
13
statute
we
were
calling
it
good
faith
efforts
14
but
they
were
the
same
thing.
So
we
combined
15
them
and
we
gave
them
one
lovely
name,
which
16
will
be
the
good
faith
efforts.
17
There
are
basically
six
different
18
things
that
a
grant
recipient
has
to
do
if
they
19
decide
to
go
out
and
contract
in
one
of
those
20
four
areas
that
Jeanette
mentioned.
21
They
have
to
do
things
such
as
make
22
sure
that
the
procurement
opportunities
are
well
23
solicited;
make
sure
that
minority
and
women
are
24
actually
included
in
that
part
of
the
process,
25
that
they
at
least
try
to
find
what's
out
there
0024
1
and
available
to
them
and
make
sure
that
it's
2
really
well
publicized.
3
I'm
not
going
to
go
through
all
six
of
4
them
because
I
don't
know
them,
but
they're
5
there,
and
each
of
them
are
geared
toward
making
6
sure
that
minorities
and
women
are
included
in
7
the
procurement
process
under
EPA
grants.
8
DAWN
BENTLEY:
Dawn
Bentley
from
9
Thomas,
Dean
&
Hoskins
in
Great
Falls.
When
you
10
do
see
a
violation,
you
know,
there
are
certain
11
regulations
when
someone
is
going
out
for
12
certification
after
they've
gotten
the
grant,
13
who
do
you
turn
to?
Where
do
you
report
this
14
to,
especially
here
in
Montana
and
you
see
a
15
gross
violation
of
grant
regulations?
16
MS.
PATRICK:
If
you
see
a
gross
17
violation
of
EPA's
grant
regulations,
and
you
18
know
you're
dealing
with
an
EPA
grant,
you
need
19
to
report
that
to
the
Grants
Administration
20
Division
of
EPA.
In
your
regions,
you
need
to
21
figure
out
who
your
regional
people
are
in
terms
22
of
dealing
with
the
grant
program
there,
and
you
23
can
report
it
there.
24
MS.
BROWN:
You
can
also
forward
it
to
25
Maurice
Valasquez,
and
if
need
be,
send
it
to
us
0025
1
in
Washington,
D.
C.
2
MS.
PATRICK:
But
that's
only
if
it's
3
dealing
with
MBE/
WBE
If
it's
another
type
of
4
grant
violation,
it
needs
to
go
to
GAD
because
5
we
wouldn't
get
into
that,
but
if
it's
dealing
6
with
our
program
and
the
terms
and
conditions
7
regarding
MBE/
WBE
or
soon
to
be
DBE,
then
8
definitely
write
Maurice
and
I.
9
Any
other
questions
before
I
move
on?
10
VERNON
JONES:
I'm
Vernon
Jones
with
11
the
Red
Lake
Builders,
Red
Lake
Band
of
Chippewa
12
Indians.
The
good
faith
efforts
have
always
13
been
through
MINN­
DOT
or
any
Department
of
14
Transportation
a
bit
ambiguous
and
subject
to
15
interpretation.
Now,
if
there
are
six
rules
for
16
good
faith
efforts,
shouldn't
everybody
know
17
them?
Shouldn't
they
be
posted?
18
MS.
PATRICK:
They
are
posted.
Those
19
good
faith
efforts
in
every
grant
agreement
that
20
a
recipient
gets,
they're
in
there,
one
through
21
six.
They
are
consistent,
they
have
not
22
changed.
And
so
every
grant
recipient
is
made
23
very
much
aware
of
what
those
six
good
faith
24
efforts
are.
25
Now,
the
way
that
happens,
because
we
0026
1
know
that
there's
not
a
lot
we
can
do
in
terms
2
of
forcing
many
things,
the
grant
recipient
is
3
required
to
document
those
six
good
faith
4
efforts,
and
so
if
we
do
a
review
of
their
file
5
and
we
look
to
see
that
they
have
not
done
what
6
they're
supposed
to
do
in
terms
of
good
faith
7
efforts,
then
EPA
does
have
recourse,
because
8
they're
supposed
to
do
that.
They
are
terms
and
9
conditions
just
like
any
other
terms
and
10
conditions
of
a
grant
and
they
are
in
there.
11
If
you
turn
to
page,
if
you
have
the
12
actual
full
text
of
the
­­
you
don't
have
it?
13
MS.
BROWN:
I'll
get
you
one.
14
MS.
PATRICK:
If
you'll
turn
to
Page
15
43848,
where
it
says
subpart
C
­­
Good
Faith
16
Efforts,
they're
listed
there.
17
And
these
good
faith
efforts
are
not
18
unique
to
EPA,
DOT
also
has
the
same
six
good
19
faith
efforts
that
they
have
to
follow.
20
Any
other
questions,
comments?
21
(
No
response.)
22
Okay,
the
next
part
that
constitutes
a
23
pretty
good
change
we
think
with
the
rule
are
24
the
contract
administration
provisions.
These
25
are
provisions
that
were
drawn
up
in
direct
0027
1
response
to
flyers
we
put
out
from
MBE/
WBE
2
subcontractors,
and
things
like
not
being
paid
3
or
being
dropped
as
soon
as
the
contract
was
4
given.
And
so
these
things
are
instituted
in
an
5
effort
to
cut
down
on
that.
6
The
first
one
is
that
a
recipient
must
7
be
notified
in
writing
by
its
prime
contractor
8
prior
to
any
termination
of
a
DBE
subcontractor.
9
The
second
one
is
that
when
a
DBE
10
subcontractor
fails
to
complete
its
work
under
11
the
subcontract
for
any
reason,
the
recipient
12
must
require
the
prime
contractor
to
make
good
13
faith
efforts
in
hiring
another
subcontractor.
14
The
third
one,
a
recipient
must
require
15
its
prime
contractor
to
make
good
faith
efforts
16
even
if
the
fair
share
objectives
are
met.
17
That's
actually
skipping
ahead
a
bit,
because
I
18
haven't
gotten
to
the
fair
share
objectives.
19
When
Jeanette
first
started
talking,
20
she
mentioned
something
about
negotiating
goals.
21
Each
grant
agreement
has
goals
in
it.
The
22
goals
are
either
taken
from
a
goal
that's
been
23
negotiated
between
us
and
the
state
or
the
24
municipality,
or
the
recipient
has
the
option
of
25
negotiating
its
own
goal
directly
with
us
if
0028
1
they
don't
want
to
use
the
state
goal.
2
Those
goals
are
based
on
availability
3
analysis
or
to
disparity
studies,
which
Jeanette
4
talked
about.
5
This
particular
provision
says
that
­­
6
well,
a
lot
of
times
we'll
have
recipients
say,
7
well,
I've
met
my
goal
so
I
can
stop
all
my
DBE
8
efforts,
I've
already
met
my
little,
you
know,
9
25%,
if
that's
what
it
is,
I
don't
have
to
keep
10
doing
this.
I
can
just
go
ahead
and
use
the
11
rest
of
my
grant
money
and
spend
it
as
I
please
12
and
go
with
the
big
contractors
and
that's
it.
13
This
provision
makes
it
very
clear,
even
if
your
14
goals
are
met,
those
six
efforts
don't
go
away.
15
Any
time
you
go
out
and
procure
in
those
four
16
areas,
these
efforts
kick
in
regardless
of
17
whether
you
met
your
goal
or
not.
So
this
makes
18
that
part
very,
very
clear.
19
Next,
a
recipient
must
require
its
20
prime
contractor
to
pay
its
subcontractor
for
21
satisfactory
performance
within
a
specific
22
number
of
days
from
the
prime
contractor's
23
receipt
of
payment
from
the
recipient.
24
One
of
the
comments
we've
gotten
since
25
we
started
this
process
was
that
maybe
they
0029
1
wanted
us
to
put
in
a
specific
number
of
days
2
into
that
particular
part
of
the
regulation,
and
3
that's
something
that
we're
considering.
4
But
we
definitely
want
to
have
5
something
that
says
that
a
number
of
days
must
6
be
identified
in
the
actual
agreement,
the
7
subcontract
agreement
as
to
payment
because
we
8
want
to
avoid
all
those
problems
of
9
subcontractors
not
being
paid.
10
Next,
a
recipient
must
require
the
11
completion
of
a
few
new
forms
to
prevent
bait
12
and
switch
tactics
at
the
subcontract
level
by
13
prime
contractors
which
could
circumvent
the
14
spirit
of
the
DBE
program.
15
We're
all
very
much
familiar
with
the
16
bait
and
switch
and
how
that
happens.
The
forms
17
are
currently
under
review
by
OMB,
and
they
will
18
be
out
and
available
for
people
to
view
once
OMB
19
has
finished
whatever
its
lovely
process
is,
20
which
usually
takes
about
forever.
And
those
21
forms
are
basically
documentation
of
the
process
22
that
the
prime
contractor
used
to
get
the
23
subcontractor,
different
specifics
about
the
24
subcontract
and
those
types
of
things
so
that
25
the
recipient
is
very
much
aware
of
the
types
of
0030
1
agreements
that
the
prime
with
the
sub.
So
it's
2
not
a
little
secret
kind
of
thing
and
then
they
3
drop
you
after
the
process.
4
DARRELL
OLSON:
This
is
Darrell
Olson
5
with
Timberline
Resources.
I
took
part
in
part
6
of
the
early
planning
of
this
and
that
was
one
7
of
the
issues
that
we've
seen
in
the
past.
8
What
teeth
is
there
in
this
that's
going
to
say,
9
yeah,
we
fill
out
this
form,
but
if
there's
no
10
repercussions
then
there's
no
teeth
in
this.
Is
11
that
prime
contractor
subject
to
lose
his
12
contract,
or
is
it
just
another
thing
written
on
13
paper
that
isn't
going
to
mean
anything,
that
14
they're
going
to
be
able
to
get
away
with?
15
MS.
PATRICK:
The
actual
teeth
in
it
is
16
a
very
good
question
because
a
lot
of
what
we
do
17
have
in
this
program
because
of
all
of
our
18
restrictions,
has
left
us
practically
toothless
19
in
many
ways.
But
to
the
extent
that
these
20
forms
allow
us
to
be
aware
of
what's
going
on,
21
it's
a
little
bit
different
when
EPA
comes
and
22
ask
a
question
than
it
is
when
the
grant
23
recipient
asks
a
question
of
a
prime
contractor.
24
There's
just
a
little
bit
more
weight
to
it,
25
and
so
we
know
what's
going
on
at
that
level
and
0031
1
we
can
go
out
and
say,
hey,
we've
become
aware
2
of
the
fact
that
you
have
this
agreement
with
3
this
person
and
you're
dropping
them
or
you're
4
not
fulfilling
that
agreement,
it
has
a
little
5
bit
more
weight
to
it
with
the
prime
contractor
6
than
it
would
from
any
other
source.
7
So
to
that
extent
for
the
first
time,
8
we
would
be
made
directly
aware
of
it.
It's
9
important
to
us,
because
before
these
things
10
were
happening
and
there
was
no
documentation.
11
We
had
no
idea
what
the
subcontract
agreements
12
were.
We
knew
nothing,
so
we
were
powerless
to
13
help
even
if
we
did
hear
about
it,
because
by
14
the
time
we
heard
about
it,
it
was
well
after
15
the
fact.
So
it's
not
quite,
you
know,
the
16
locked
jaws
of
a
Rottweiler
but
it's
a
little
17
bit
more
of
a
bite
than
we
had
before.
18
Any
other
questions?
19
(
No
response.)
20
The
next
part
is
submission
of
fair
21
share
goals.
With
this
part,
the
rule
would
22
require
a
recipient
to
submit
its
proposed
fair
23
share
objectives
and
supporting
documentation
to
24
the
agency
no
later
than
90
days
after
its
25
acceptance
of
the
assistance
award.
0032
1
This
particular
provision
is
new.
The
2
teeth
that's
behind
that
is
that
a
recipient
3
would
not
be
able
to
spend
any
of
its
grant
or
4
financial
assistance
award
for
procurement
until
5
the
fair
share
objective
negotiation
process
has
6
been
completed.
7
That's
something
that's
very
different
8
for
us,
particularly
between
EPA
and
a
9
recipient.
Heretofore,
recipients
would
drag
10
their
feet
about
negotiating
the
goals
for
using
11
MBEs
and
WBEs.
Now,
it's
very
different.
Once
12
that
grant
award
is
made,
they
have
90
days
to
13
negotiate
a
goal
with
us.
If
they
don't
do
it,
14
they
can't
spend
anything
in
those
four
areas,
15
construction,
equipment,
services
and
supplies.
16
When
you
look
at
those
four
areas,
you
can't
buy
17
anything.
That
covers
everything.
You
can
18
still
use
it
to
pay
salaries,
which
is
fine
19
anyway,
but
anything
outside
of
that,
it's
cut
20
off
until
you
have
a
goal
with
us.
21
PAUL
ARNETTE:
That
creates
another
22
question.
I'm
Paul
Arnette
from
Native
American
23
Consulting.
If
you
do
have
a
company,
a
prime
24
contractor
who
has
been
identified
as
one
that's
25
using
bait
and
switch
tactics,
how
quickly
does
0033
1
the
agency
respond
back
and
is
there
a
process
2
whereby
if
that
individual
is
identified
as
3
using
that,
are
they
blacklisted
by
future
4
projects?
5
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay,
that
particular
6
portion
of
it
in
terms
of
documenting
of
prime
7
contractor
who
has
a
habit
of
bait
and
8
switching,
we
have
to
be
­­
this
is
the
legal
9
part
of
me
getting
switched
on
­­
we
have
to
be
10
very,
very
careful
with
that.
11
I
used
to
work
in
debarment,
and
one
of
12
the
questions
that
would
always
come
up
was
13
well,
if
we
sort
of
had
wind
that
this
company
14
has
done
some
bad
stuff,
but
we
hadn't
taken
15
full
debarment
action,
can
we
just
still
stop
16
them
because,
you
know,
from
the
Better
Business
17
Bureau
we
know
they're
a
bad
company.
18
The
problem
is
this
little
thing
called
19
due
process
and
that
little
thing
everybody
is
20
entitled
to.
We
can't
stop
a
company
from
being
21
involved
in
the
process
when
there's
been
no
22
hard
core
proof,
they
haven't
had
the
23
opportunity
to
defend
themselves
as
such.
24
So
we
can't
say,
well,
you
can't
25
participate
anymore
because
we
heard
you
were
a
0034
1
bad
company.
Granted,
there's
some
room
there
2
because
it
is
a
business
decision,
but
with
this
3
particular
program
that's
a
business
decision
at
4
the
recipient
level.
Who
the
recipient
chooses
5
to
contract
with
is
something
EPA
cannot
6
dictate.
7
So
if
the
bait
and
switch
type
of
thing
8
occurs,
your
first
recourse
is
to
follow
9
whatever
the
processes
are
at
the
recipient
10
level,
whether
it
be
the
state,
or
whoever
it
is
11
that
handles
it,
follow
their
procedures
first,
12
but
it's
really
not
a
Federal
Government
13
contract.
14
What
you
do
is
you
follow
those
15
procedures
and
you
let
us
know
along
the
way.
16
Because
while
we
can't
really
be
involved
in
the
17
process,
we're
perfectly
entitled
to
ask
18
questions
because
it's
still
our
monies.
19
Do
you
understand
what
I'm
saying?
So
20
it's
a
very
delicate
little
balance
there.
21
DARRELL
OLSON:
Darrell
Olson
with
22
Timberline.
I
guess
since
this
is
a
hearing
on
23
something
that
I'd
like
to
see,
is
when
I
asked
24
you
the
first
time
you
said
that
EPA
coming
25
down,
putting
a
little
bit
of
pressure
on
them
0035
1
is
going
to
change
this.
2
The
way
I
see
it
with
the
blacklist
3
idea,
I
think
there
needs
to
be
a
list,
and
I
4
would
really
like
to
see
if
EPA,
it
comes
to
5
your
attention,
you
actually
talk
to
that
6
contractor,
that's
the
process
of
due
process.
7
If
you
fill
out
these
forms
and
you're
8
never,
ever
going
to
have
an
appeal
process
or
9
there's
never
going
to
be­­
what
I'm
saying
is,
10
if
you
go
through
a
process
and
say
somebody
11
reports
them,
you
come
down,
you
talk
to
them,
12
and
you
check
up
on
them
and
all
of
a
sudden
you
13
find
that
yeah,
they
are
in
violation,
then
at
14
that
point
they
had
their
chance
to
do
their
due
15
process
and
those
contractors
should
be
listed
16
with
all
the
grant
recipients
as
a
17
non­
compliant.
18
If
you're
not
willing
to,
if
your
19
office
is
not
willing
to
actually
follow
up
on
a
20
complaint,
then
the
whole
program
is
moot
21
anyway.
I
mean
you
need
to
have
some
sort
of,
22
at
least
a
list,
you
know,
put
together
and
make
23
the
due
process
the
complaint
process.
24
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
the
problem
with
25
that
is
this,
we're
requiring
that
the
recipient
0036
1
have
their
prime
contractor
fill
out
the
forms.
2
The
forms
regarding
their
subcontracting
3
activity,
and
so
forth,
is
the
responsibility
of
4
the
recipient.
Let's
say
in
this
scenario
it's
5
the
state,
state
of
Montana.
They're
going
to
6
require
their
contractor
know
what
the
7
subcontract
activities
are.
EPA,
in
turn,
as
a
8
part
of
what's
in
the
entire
grant
file,
which
9
is
what
this
will
become
a
part
of,
has
the
10
opportunity
to
look
and
see
what's
going
on.
11
Now,
let's
say
there's
some
bait
and
12
switch
going
on,
okay.
The
recipient
through
13
these
forms
becomes
aware
of
it.
The
recipient
14
does
nothing.
Let's
say
the
next
year
the
15
recipient
gets
more
money
from
EPA.
The
16
recipient
chooses
to
go
with
the
same
contractor
17
who
did
the
bait
and
switch.
18
Let's
say
year
three,
EPA
does
a
random
19
review.
We
happen
to
pick
the
state
of
Montana,
20
here
we
come.
We
look
at
this,
we
look
at
the
21
forms.
We
see
the
state
of
Montana
has
22
continued
to
use
this
contractor
who
is
23
continually
done
interesting
things
with
its
24
sub.
Our
direct
recourse
is
going
to
be
with
25
the
state
of
Montana
in
this
scenario,
with
the
0037
1
recipient,
because
it's
the
recipient's
2
responsibility
to
sort
of
monitor
what's
going
3
on
at
that
level.
4
EPA
cannot
create
and
maintain
lists
of
5
bad
actors
when
it's
not
our
direct
contract.
6
In
our
direct
side
of
the
house
where
EPA
is
the
7
one
who
is
directly
involved
in
the
contracting,
8
we
can
look
at
things
like
past
performance
9
because
it's
a
direct
EPA
contract.
10
On
the
other
hand,
the
whole
nature
of
11
doing
a
grant
is
that
it's
money
that
the
agency
12
gives
out
for
the
recipient
to
do
projects
that
13
are
for
the
recipient's
benefit.
They're
not
14
benefitting
EPA.
So
it's
like
we
give
the
15
money,
we
want
to
know
what
you're
doing
with
16
the
money
and
make
sure
you're
doing
what
you
17
said
you
would
do,
but
we
can't
dictate
how,
in
18
many
ways
we
can't
dictate
how
that
happened.
19
On
the
direct
contracting
side,
that's
20
our
money.
We're
not
funneling
it
through
21
anybody.
It's
going
to
be
directly
affecting
22
the
agency,
and
so
if
we
want
to
look
at
things
23
like
past
performance.
We
can
do
that
and
keep
24
a
record
of
it
and
that
type
of
thing,
but
we
25
have
to
be
very,
very,
very
careful
that
we
0038
1
don't
end
up
debarring
someone
without
due
2
process.
3
Due
process
means
the
bad
actor,
the
4
accused
bad
actor
has
the
opportunity
to
come
5
in,
state
its
case,
this
is
what
I've
done
in
6
response
to
what
you're
saying
I
did.
There's
7
usually
somebody
like
a
hearing
officer
8
involved,
administrative
law
judge,
that
type
of
9
thing.
It's
a
whole
different
kind
of
ball
game
10
when
we
talk
about
that
sort
of
due
process.
So
11
in
large
part,
that
portion
of
it
is
going
to
be
12
the
responsibility
of
the
recipient.
13
MS.
BROWN:
Can
I
say
something?
14
She's
a
former
debarment
attorney,
so
it's
good
15
to
have
her
on
my
side
in
the
program.
But
the
16
other
thing
I
think
we've
done
with
the
forms,
17
don't
we
have
a
form
that
the
subcontractor
can
18
send
in
to
us?
Did
we
identify
one
of
those?
19
MS.
PATRICK:
Most
of
those
forms
­­
20
MS.
BROWN:
There's
one,
if
I
recall
21
correctly,
that
I
felt
we
had
identified
where
22
the
subcontractor
can
send
information
in
to
say
23
what
the
contract
was
actually
for.
24
MS.
PATRICK:
You're
right,
there
is
25
one.
0039
1
MS.
BROWN:
So
there
is
a
mechanism.
2
Because
before
we
didn't
have
that,
but
now
you
3
as
a
subcontractor
have
the
opportunity
to
say
4
this
is
the
amount
that
I
entered
into
the
5
contract
for
and
this
is
what
I
got
or
didn't
6
get,
and
we
get
that
as
well.
And
so
they
are
7
supposed
to
give
those
to
both
the
prime
and
you
8
as
a
subcontractor
and
then
you
fill
that
in
and
9
send
it
back
to
us
so
we
will
know
and
begin
to
10
see
what's
going
on
and
that's
more
than
what
we
11
have
now.
And
we
see
that
as
a
mechanism
to
go
12
back
to
the
grant
recipient
to
say,
hey,
these
13
are
the
kinds
of
things
you
need
to
watch
and
14
what's
going
on,
and
maybe
some
other
things
too
15
later
on.
16
MS.
PATRICK:
Question?
17
ORIANNE
BAKER:
My
name
is
Orianne
18
Baker.
I'm
the
business
manager
for
the
19
Chippewa­
Cree
Tribe
in
Rocky
Boy,
Montana.
20
One
of
the
things
that
just
occurred
to
21
me,
an
idea
while
we
was
talking
about
this
22
issue.
Although
EPA
isn't
able
to
like
23
establish
a
list
or
some
type
of
directory
of
24
prime
contractors
that
do
this
type
of
practice,
25
there
is
nothing
to
say,
is
it
correct
in
my
0040
1
thinking,
there
is
nothing
to
say
that
as
tribes
2
and
tribal
business
owners
on
our
part
to
3
establish
that
directory?
Therefore,
we're
not
4
getting
sucked
in
to
deals
by
the
same
5
contractor.
Because
what
occurs
to
me,
I'm
sure
6
they
use
up
one
tribe,
then
while
they
get
their
7
next
contract,
then
move
to
the
next
one.
8
MS.
PATRICK:
You
are
perfectly
welcome
9
to
do
that
because
on
that
particular
level
10
you're
not
held
to
all
the
legal
standards
we
11
are.
What
you
do,
it's
considered
more
of
a
12
good
business
decision,
because
it
doesn't
make
13
good
business
sense
to
continue
to
do
business
14
with
a
bad
contractor.
We
all
know
that.
But
15
at
your
level
you
can
do
that,
and
if
you
want
16
to
even
share
that
with
other
tribes,
say,
hey,
17
these
are
our
bad
actors,
spread
it
around,
what
18
you
do
internally,
that's
just
a
good
share
of
19
information.
That's
perfectly
fine.
But
if
the
20
government
does
it,
then
we're
in
trouble
21
because
that's
sort
of
like,
you
know,
it
arises
22
to
a
debarment
when
we
do
that.
We
can't
do
it.
23
ORIANNE
BAKER:
And
I
believe
here
in
24
Montana
they
have
an
organization
called
Montana
25
Tribal
Business
Development
and
see
there
would
0041
1
be
a
vehicle
in
that
organization
where
we
could
2
list
those
companies.
Because,
you
know,
with
3
tribal
business
their
revenues
and
what
they
4
identify
as
revenues
and
market
are
very
­­
you
5
really
count
on
it.
You
see
it
as
a
way,
well,
6
here's
some
for
sure
money
we
could
kind
of
bank
7
on
this
on
the
growth
of
our
company.
But
when
8
that
doesn't
turn
out,
I
mean,
I
see
that
as
9
really
leading
to
business
failure.
And
that's
10
really
too
bad
because
actually
we
can't,
you
11
know,
it
would
be
good
not
to
be
involved
with
12
those
types
of
companies.
13
MS.
BROWN:
It
is
our
hope
that
as
we
14
are
having
these
meetings,
we're
asking
that
the
15
small
business
community,
the
minority,
16
woman­
owned
and
even
the
tribal
business
17
community
will
band
together,
come
together,
and
18
as
you
are
seeing
certain
practices,
certain
19
things
happen,
you
can
share
that
amongst
20
yourselves.
21
We're
even
hopeful
that
some
of
the
22
larger
tribes
will
work
and
share
information
23
with
some
of
the
smaller
tribes.
That's
my
hope
24
in
all
of
this,
so
that
information
will
be
25
passed
along
so
that
they
don't
get
burnt
and
0042
1
spend
unnecessary
money
and
not
maybe
get
what
2
they
thought
that
they
were
paying
for.
3
We
hear
that
a
lot,
across
the
board
in
4
the
minority
business
community
sector,
and
so
5
we're
hoping
that
there
will
be
this
gathering
6
of
information
and
sharing
it
across
the
board.
7
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay,
any
other
questions
8
or
comments?
9
(
No
response.)
10
Once
the
fair
share
goal
is
negotiated,
11
it's
good
for
three
fiscal
years.
Now,
the
12
other
way
that
will
be
different
is
that
if
13
there's
significant
changes
that
occur
during
14
that
time
period,
rendering
whatever
data
the
15
goal
was
based
on
obsolete
or
irrelevant,
the
16
recipient
will
have
to
renegotiate
goals
with
17
EPA.
But
basically
the
goals
are
in
place
for
a
18
three­
year
period.
19
We're
going
to
talk
about
the
fact
that
20
the
goals
are
based
upon
availability
analysis,
21
given
geographic
areas.
22
One
thing
that's
important
to
point
out
23
is
that
for
the
very
first
time
in
this
rule,
24
we're
going
to
be
requiring
tribes
to
negotiate
25
goals
with
EPA.
We
know
this
has
not
been
done
0043
1
in
the
past,
but
one
of
the
things
that
came
out
2
in
our
review
was
that
normally
EPA's
account,
3
all
the
great
money
given
to
tribes
was
100%
4
MBE/
WBEs.
Well,
when
the
OJ
did
its
review
of
5
our
program,
one
of
the
things
that
was
revealed
6
was
that
a
lot
of
times
tribes
would
get
grants
7
but
that
money
wasn't
going
to
MBE/
WBE,
they
8
were
spending
it
with
large
majority
9
contractors.
10
So
when
we
reported
back
to
Congress,
11
which
is
one
of
the
things
we
had
to
do
on
our
12
program,
we
would
say
oh,
100%
of
this
was
13
MBE/
WBE,
but
we
found
out
that
wasn't
true.
It
14
wasn't
happening.
So
we
decided
one
of
the
15
things
we
would
have
to
do
is
require
the
tribes
16
to
negotiate­­
17
MS.
BROWN:
And
that
wasn't
the
intent.
18
We
didn't
know
that
was
happening
at
all.
19
MS.
PATRICK:
And
so
one
thing
we
20
decided
to
do
was
have
the
tribes
negotiate
21
goals
with
us
just
like
the
states
do.
The
22
tribes
have
options.
We
want
to
make
that
very
23
clear,
there
are
options,
you
don't
have
to
do
24
this.
25
Because
we
know
the
cost
of
doing
an
0044
1
availability
analysis
can
be
steep
and
the
cost
2
for
doing
the
disparity
study
even
steeper,
the
3
tribe
has
the
option,
only
an
option,
not
a
4
requirement,
of
adopting
the
state
goal.
5
If
the
state
goal
works
for
you,
and
6
you
and
the
state
purchase
from
the
same
basic
7
geographic
areas,
or
they
can
adopt
the
goal
8
that
a
municipality
uses
if
it's
in
the
same
9
geographic
area
and
the
buying
sources
are
about
10
similar,
they
can
adopt
those
goals,
or
they
can
11
adopt
the
goal
of
another
tribe
that's
in
the
12
same
geographic
area.
These
are
all
options
13
just
to
make
it
a
little
bit
easier.
14
One
of
the
things
that's
also
possible,
15
not
a
definite,
but
it's
possible
that
the
cost
16
of
the
availability
analysis
may
be
something
17
that
could
be
covered
under
the
grant,
possible.
18
But
you'd
have
to
check
with
your
individual
19
grant
agreement,
check
with
your
grants
people
20
to
see
if
a
part
of
that
cost,
if
not
all
of
it,
21
can
be
assumed
under
the
grant.
22
DARRELL
OLSON:
I
don't
mean
to
hog
23
your
mike.
Darrell
Olson
with
Timberline
24
Resources.
Dave
Sutton
helped
us
here
recently,
25
or
a
couple
of
years
ago.
We
were
working
with
0045
1
a
tribe
that
had
an
EPA
grant
for
a
Brownsfield,
2
and
at
that
time
the
company
I
was
working
with
3
was
an
8(
a)
company
and
we
wanted
to
contract
4
under
the
8(
a)
Program
and
your
program
people
5
said
no,
we
can't.
There's
no
follow­
through
in
6
the
grant
process
to
use
government
mechanisms.
7
Does
this
new
grant
procedure
allow
for
8
8(
a)
and
other
minority
or
disadvantaged
9
business
contracting
procedures
follow­
through
10
with
this,
or
those
contracting
procedures
are
11
no
longer
when
you
issue
the
grant
to
a
tribe?
12
MS.
BROWN:
8(
a)
is
with
direct
13
procurement
on
that
side
of
the
house.
That
14
goes
under
the
FAR
and
13
CFR
and
it's
for
the
15
Federal
Government's
direct
procurement
16
process.
When
you're
talking
about
grant
and
17
subcontracting,
the
only
thing
we
are
concerned
18
with
is
whether
or
not
it's
a
minority
19
business.
What
that
definition
is
as
we've
20
gotten
it
from
SBA,
a
woman­
owned
business
and
21
the
prime
contractor
being
able
to
get
credit
22
for
or
recognizing
that
they
are
doing
business
23
with
minority,
women
businesses
to
meet
their
24
requirement
under
the
grant.
So
we
don't
look
25
at
8(
a)
under
the
grant.
We
don't
look
at
8(
a),
0046
1
your
minority
business,
it's
all
inclusive.
2
Did
I
answer
your
question?
3
DARRELL
OLSON:
Yeah,
you
did.
4
MS.
BROWN:
One
of
the
things
as
we've
5
gone
through
this
process
and
it's
been
about
6
four
years,
when
we
looked
at
the
fact
that
we
7
need
to
include
tribes
in
the
negotiations,
what
8
the
tribes
need
to
understand
is
this
money
9
doesn't
come
free.
And
that's
not
just
the
10
tribes,
that's
anybody
that
gets
it.
There
are
11
regulations
that
go
with
it
and
you
can't
just
12
say
just
give
me
the
money
and
walk
away.
13
If
there
is
a
challenge
to
how
you
14
procure
it,
you
then,
and
that's
anybody
being
a
15
grant
recipient
would
have
to
defend
what
you
16
did.
We
can't
defend
that.
What
was
your
17
process?
How
did
you
document
your
files?
Do
18
you
have
any
kind
of
standards
that
you
follow?
19
If
there's
a
challenge
and
we
could
foresee
20
another
minority
group
or
majority
group
21
challenging
some
of
the
things
that
were
being
22
done
under
the
program
the
way
we
were
carrying
23
it
out
before.
Because
it
was
almost
like
24
anything
went
and
we
weren't
in
there
in
the
mix
25
and
we
just
didn't
see
it
or
didn't
do
anything
0047
1
about
it.
That's
got
to
change.
2
So
what
we
did
was,
we
did
a
run
in
the
3
agency
to
see
how
many
grants
we
had
with
4
tribes.
We
had
a
very
high
concentration,
a
5
large
number
of
grants
on
the
west
coast,
6
particularly
in
Region
10,
but
when
and
Kimberly
7
would
talk
about
some
of
the
exemptions
that
we
8
have
identified,
and
by
the
time
­­
how
many
9
tribes
did
we
identify?
We
know
there
were
10
about
600
plus.
When
we
did
the
numbers
with
11
the
exceptions,
we
are
probably
looking
at
a
12
total
of
about
25
to
30
at
the
most
of
the
13
larger
tribes
that
will
have
to
negotiate.
14
That's
all.
The
smaller
tribes
with
the
15
exemptions
or
the
types
of
grants
that
they
have
16
from
us,
won't
have
to
negotiate.
17
The
only
thing
that
we
are
exempting,
18
depending
on
the
exemptions
as
we've
identified,
19
EPA
is
proposing
to
exempt
recipients
of
an
EPA
20
financial
assistance
agreement
in
the
amount
of
21
$
250,000
or
less
or
any
single
assistance
22
agreement
with
a
combined
total
of
$
250,000
or
23
less
in
any
one
fiscal
year.
The
total
is
24
$
250,000,
total,
either
one,
or
over
the
course
25
of
one
fiscal
year,
no
more
than
250,000.
0048
1
So
if
you
get
less
than
250,000,
you
2
are
exempt
from
negotiations.
You're
not
exempt
3
from
the
good
faith
efforts,
nobody
is
exempt
4
from
the
good
faith
efforts.
It's
only
the
5
negotiations.
6
Under
the
clean
water
and
the
drinking
7
water,
the
SRF
Brownfields
Cleanup
program,
the
8
revolving
loan
fund,
we
have
exemptions
there
9
too.
We
are
proposing
that
a
recipient
not
be
10
required
to
apply
the
fair
share
objective
11
requirements
to
an
entity
receiving
an
12
identified
loan
in
the
amount
of
$
250,000
or
13
less
or
to
an
entity
receiving
more
than
14
$
250,000
or
less
in
any
one
fiscal
year.
15
Recipients
of
identified
loan
projects
could
use
16
state
negotiated
MBE/
WBE
fair
share
goals
if
17
they
used
a
substantially
similar
relevant
or
18
similar
geographic
market.
19
The
key
to
all
of
this
when
using
or
20
opting
to
use
somebody
else's
goal
is
that
you
21
have
to
have
a
similar
condition.
The
22
geographic
market
has
to
be
similar,
and
that
23
has
to
be
identified
to
the
MBE/
WBE
coordinator
24
who
would
be
the
person
negotiating,
so
that's
25
Maurice
for
all
of
you
for
right
now.
He
will
0049
1
be
the
one
that
will
be
negotiating
the
goals
as
2
he
does
now
with
all
of
the
grant
recipients.
3
Did
I
hear
a
question?
Yes,
sir?
4
DAVE
NELSON:
My
name
is
Dave
Nelson,
5
environmental
director
for
the
Cheyenne
River
6
Sioux
Tribe.
I'm
a
little
bit
confused
on
this
7
now.
If
a
tribe
wishes
to
conduct
all
the
8
contractual
or
construction
activities,
let's
9
say
under
Brownfields,
for
example,
we're
going
10
to
do
all
the
cleanup,
we
have
the
capabilities
11
to
do
the
assessment,
how
do
we
have
to
come
12
back
in
because
we've
already
signed
the
424
and
13
MBE
and
WBE?
That's
kind
of
confusing
to
me
14
because
we're
already
a
tribal
government,
I
15
mean
basically
a
government­
to­
government
­­
16
MS.
BROWN:
What
it
is,
before
you
get
17
your
money,
within
90
days
of
the
award
or
the
18
financial
assistance
agreement,
negotiations
19
have
to
be
completed.
So
we
do
that
up
front
20
within
90
days
of
the
financial
assistance
21
agreement
being
awarded.
And
we
negotiate
that
22
based
on
the
availability
of
minorities
and
23
women
in
that
geographic
location
and
that's
the
24
amount
that's
set
and
goes
into
your
grant.
25
This
covers
not
just
construction,
but
0050
1
it
covers
if
you
go
out
and
buy
a
pen,
if
you
go
2
out
and
buy
paper,
or
if
you
go
out
and
buy
3
supplies,
equipment,
construction,
services
or
4
supplies,
then
you
may
not
be
able
to
provide
as
5
the
tribal
government
­­
and
I
don't
know,
you
6
may
­­
but
you
may
not
be
able
to
provide
7
everything
you
might
need
under
that
grant.
8
While
the
core
services
for
construction
you
9
very
well
may
be
able
to
provide,
those
other
10
three
categories
you
may
get
from
someplace
11
else.
12
We
would
negotiate
a
goal
with
you
as
a
13
tribal
government,
possibly,
provided
you
didn't
14
fall
into
the
category
with
the
exemptions
and
15
you
were
one
of
those
25
to
30
tribes
that
we
16
have
to
negotiate
with,
we
would
negotiate
with
17
you
and
that
goal
will
be
in
your
grant
in
terms
18
of
what
your
commitment
should
be
in
terms
of
19
trying
to
include
minorities
and
women
in
your
20
procurement
process.
21
Again,
remember
I
said,
you
don't
have
22
to
contract
out
at
all,
that's
your
choice
as
a
23
grant
recipient.
If
you
have
within
your
own
24
abilities
to
do
the
work
on
your
own,
use
the
25
grant
money
to
pay
salaries
for
your
staff,
you
0051
1
have
that
option.
But
once
you
go
out
and
buy
2
something
and
enter
into
a
contract
with
3
somebody
else
for
services,
goods,
construction
4
or
equipment
under
this
grant,
those
goals
that
5
we
negotiated
early
on
will
kick
in,
our
DBE
6
program
kicks
in.
7
DAVID
NELSON:
Now,
you
mentioned
the
8
250,000,
is
that
per
line
item?
9
MS.
BROWN:
No.
10
DAVE
NELSON:
For
the
overall
grant.
11
MS.
BROWN:
For
the
overall
grant,
or
a
12
total
of
$
250,000
for
a
fiscal
year
for
more
13
than
one
grant.
14
DAVE
NELSON:
So
if
we
have
a
grant
15
that's
400,000
and
maybe
50,000
of
that
is
for
16
construction,
supplies,
equipment,
whatever
­­
17
MS.
BROWN:
We're
not
going
into
the
18
details
of
the
grant
because
that's
too
much.
19
If
your
grant
amount
if
$
450,000,
you
have
to
20
negotiate
if
you
don't
fit
the
exemptions.
21
We're
going
by
the
grant
amount
not
the
22
procurement
dollars
within
the
grant.
It's
too
23
complicated.
24
DAVE
NELSON:
Yeah,
because
I'm
25
thinking
back
on
what
they
were
talking
about
0052
1
under
CFR
13,
I
mean
it
spells
out
in
there,
you
2
know,
tribes
have
this,
you
know
­­
3
MS.
BROWN:
But
that's
a
different,
4
that's
in
direct
procurement.
5
MS.
PATRICK:
Put
13
CFR
out
of
your
6
head,
none
of
that
applies.
7
MS.
BROWN:
That
doesn't
apply
here
8
now.
We've
got
to
be
clear.
Yesterday
was
9
direct
procurement
and
you
had
those
exemptions
10
or
you
don't
have
any
dollar
limitations
under
11
contracts
directly
under
the
FAR.
12
The
grant
process
doesn't
cover
the
13
FAR,
it's
a
whole
different
set
of
rules
14
separate
and
distinct.
15
Any
other
questions
or
comments?
16
DARRELL
OLSON:
Darrell
Olson
again.
17
How
did
you
come
up
with
the
250,000?
And
the
18
reason
I
ask
that
is
a
small
business,
19
especially
in
our
region,
contracts
under
20
250,000
are
life
blood
of
small
business.
And
21
by
you
putting
a
cap
of
250,000,
that
excludes
22
probably
the
majority
of
the
people
in
this
room
23
as
businesses
don't
usually
do
a
lot
of
24
contracts
over
250,000.
25
So
I
guess
what
I'm
asking,
and
not
0053
1
necessarily
speaking
on
the
tribal,
like
the
2
City
of
Billings,
I
know
applied
for
a
grant.
I
3
would
like
to
see,
and
I
know
it
may
be
too
late
4
in
the
process,
that
that
lot
number
be
lowered
5
to
grants
under,
you
know,
somewhere
around
6
50,000
because
that's
our
life
blood.
7
This
whole
program
is
about
monies
8
under
that,
and
I
very
seldom
every
see
a
9
Brownfields,
at
least
in
our
region,
that's
over
10
200,000.
I
think
the
initial
assessment
grants
11
are
$
200,000
so
this
minority
program
will
never
12
kick
in
on
the
grants
for
the
majority
of
the
13
small
businesses.
14
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
the
program
does
15
kick
in.
The
exemption
only
applies
in
16
negotiation
of
a
goal.
So
that
means
that
the
17
entity
would
not
operate
with
who
was
under
that
18
amount,
it
wouldn't
operate
with
their
25%
goal;
19
however,
they
still
have
to
go
through
those
20
steps
regardless,
goal,
no
goal.
You
still
have
21
to
go
through
the
six
affirmative
steps
to
show
22
that
you
went
out
and
sought
minority
23
businesses,
they
were
included
in
your
24
procurement
process,
they
bid,
they
did
X,
Y
and
25
Z,
all
of
that
has
to
be
proven.
They
still
0054
1
have
to
report
back
to
us
in
all
those
forms.
2
None
of
that
goes
away,
only
the
goals.
3
MS.
BROWN:
It's
only
negotiating
with
4
EPA
goals.
5
MS.
PATRICK:
So
that
part
that
applies
6
to
making
sure
that
you
all
are
in
the
process,
7
that
never
goes
away.
It's
just
the
goal
part,
8
which
reduces
the
administrative
burden
on
us
as
9
well,
because
if
we
had
to
negotiate
every
10
single
grant,
if
we
had
a
cap
of
$
50,000,
we
11
don't
have
the
people.
We
just
don't
have
the
12
people
to
go
out
and
negotiate
that
heavily.
We
13
have
one
regional
coordinator
in
each
region,
14
one
person.
And
so
for
that
one
person
having
15
to
negotiate
goals
on
every
single,
solitary,
it
16
would
be
impossible.
17
What
happens,
if
you
talk
about
the
18
smaller
grants
or
the
smaller
loan
programs
or
19
whatever
that
come
out,
usually
there
are
20
multiple
awards
during
the
year.
That
total
21
adds
up,
and
trust
me,
about
halfway,
mid
the
22
year,
they've
usually
hit
that
$
250,000
mark
or
23
above.
24
So
it
may
seem
like
little,
small
25
projects
coming
out,
and
one
thing
you
may
not
0055
1
know,
if
the
state
of
Montana
puts
out
a
bid
for
2
a
project,
$
50,000
for
a
project
for
a
water
3
treatment
thing,
that
$
50,000
is
not
all
the
4
money
Montana
got.
Montana
may
be
given
a
grant
5
for
$
500,000
but
that
procurement
is
only
50.
6
So
you
have
to
really
look
at
the
big
picture
7
and
find
out
what
the
total
award
was,
not
just
8
what's
being
procured
and
put
out
there
because
9
sometimes
they
put
it
out
in
pieces
in
terms
of
10
procurement.
That's
very
important.
11
MS.
BROWN:
Any
questions
or
comment?
12
That's
our
friend
from
DOT.
13
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
our
DOT
person.
14
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
I'm
Rebecca
Johnson,
15
and
I'm
with
Montana
Department
of
16
Transportation,
DBE
support
services.
17
When
you
say
the
state
of
Montana,
are
18
you
talking
about
the
grant
recipient
state
of
19
Montana
and
their
goal?
20
MS.
BROWN:
Yes.
21
MS.
PATRICK:
That
was
just
me
giving
22
an
example
and
I
was
talking
about
as
a
23
recipient.
24
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Okay.
Well,
you
were
25
referring
to
that
you
could
take
on
their
goal,
0056
1
and
you're
talking
more
DEQ
under
the
state
of
2
Montana
as
the
grant
recipient.
3
MS.
PATRICK:
Exactly.
4
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
How,
when
they
have
5
that
goal
that
they
have
negotiated
with
you
and
6
determined,
how
are
they
required
to
advertise
7
that
goal
so
that
we
could
see,
you
know,
what
8
the
goal
is
that
they
are
trying
to
achieve
and
9
how
well
they
have
done
in
achieving
that
goal?
10
I
mean,
that's
good
information
for
us
to
know.
11
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
actually
something
12
that's
a
good
idea.
We
don't
currently
as
an
13
agency
require
them
to
advertise
what
their
goal
14
is
as
such,
however,
that
information
is
public
15
knowledge.
16
There
is
a
grants
website,
a
grants
17
database
where
you
can
go
to
and
you
can
18
actually
search
and
say
you
want
to
know
all
the
19
grants
that
were
given
in
Montana.
They'll
20
pull
them
up
for
you.
And
also,
we
keep
the
21
goals
on
our
website
which
is
also
available
to
22
find
out
what
the
goal
is
for
the
state
of
23
Montana
or
whatever.
The
goals
are
made
public,
24
but
we
don't
require
the
recipient
at
this
point
25
to
advertise
its
goals.
0057
1
MS.
BROWN:
Did
DOT
require
the
2
recipient
to
identify
that
goal
and
publicize
3
it?
4
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Well,
we're
actually
5
the
recipient
from
the
Federal
Government
and
we
6
set
a
yearly
goal
which
we
widely
publicize.
7
And
we
also
show
how
we're
achieving
that
goal
8
throughout
the
year.
9
MS.
BROWN:
Is
that
something
you
chose
10
to
do
yourself,
or
does
the
Federal
Government
11
make
you
do
that?
12
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
No,
that's
our
13
interpretation
of
the
federal
regulations,
which
14
is
another
question
I
have.
With
your
grant
15
recipients,
then,
their
interpretation
of
good
16
faith
efforts.
So
I
don't
know
how
formal
they
17
are
in
what
their,
you
know,
interpretation
is
18
and
what
their
standards
are
for
good
faith
19
effort,
because,
I
mean,
that's
a
big
part
of
my
20
job
is
promoting
DBE
companies
in
the
state.
21
You
know,
I
need
to
know
where
they
are
going
22
looking
for
DBE
companies
and
what
they're
23
requiring
their
contractors
in
showing
good
24
faith
effort.
25
MS.
BROWN:
One
of
the
things
that
we
0058
1
try
to
do
in
this
process
is
to
make
more
2
information
available,
and
one
of
the
things
3
that
I'm
asking
each
of
the
coordinators
to
do
4
within
each
one
of
their
regions,
is
to
help
us
5
to
expand
information
like
that.
On
our
website
6
we've
asked
the
state
and
other
grantees
to
send
7
us
information
in
terms
of
listings
or
how
we
8
can
connect
and
do
links
to
various
websites
9
that
would
give
information
to
the
public
in
10
terms
of
what
it
is
that
they're
doing
or
where
11
to
go
within
the
state,
or
to
a
tribe,
et
12
cetera,
if
they
have
anything
available.
13
That
has
been
slow
in
coming,
but
I'm
14
hoping
that
as
we
get
through
this
process
and
15
finalize
it,
one
of
the
other
things
I
would
16
like
to
do
is
to
give
more
substantial
17
information,
have
that
readily
available
to
go
18
out
with
the
grant
when
its
awarded
at
EPA
to
19
the
grant
recipient.
20
We're
also
working
with
the
grants
21
office
with
the
grant
recipient
and
doing
some
22
internal
training
with
the
program
people
to
23
make
sure
that
they
don't
forget,
as
they
are
24
more
concerned
about
the
technical
stuff,
that
25
they
don't
forget
the
administrative
pieces
as
0059
1
well
and
that
they
go
through
this
to
make
sure
2
that
a
grant
recipient
understands
early
on
in
3
the
process
what
this
means.
4
One
of
the
areas
where
we're
seeing
a
5
lot
of
problems
with
this
is
when
we
have
6
earmarks,
because
a
lot
of
times
when
they're
7
earmarked
by
the
time
the
grant
recipient,
the
8
states
know
this
money
is
coming
because
it's
9
been
promised
by
their
representative,
by
the
10
time
we
get
it
the
money
might
be
spent.
11
So
one
of
the
things
we
are
discussing
12
internally
now
is
how
we
can
send
out
maybe
some
13
communique
to
the
Hill
to
make
sure
they
14
understand.
We
don't
have
a
problem
with
the
15
earmarks,
but
your
grant
recipients
need
to
know
16
that
there
are
stipulations
that
come
and
17
there's
a
fiduciary
responsibility
on
our
part
18
to
ensure
that
all
of
these
things
are
adhered
19
to.
20
So
we're
looking
at
a
number
of
things
21
and
trying
to
consider
a
number
of
things
of
22
getting
more
information
out
there
very
early
on
23
in
the
process.
24
But
if
you
have
a
website,
if
we
can
25
link
so
that
when
­­
we
have
a
map
on
our
0060
1
website
with
all
of
our
regions
and
its
number.
2
It's
colored,
you
can
go
on
and
click,
and
say
3
for
the
state
of
Montana,
it
would
be
good
if
4
they
could
just
click
and
find
out
where
to
go
5
with
the
tribal,
minority
business,
all
of
that
6
information.
That
is
my
hope.
We're
not
there
7
yet,
but
as
technology
advances
and
more
and
8
more
of
this
information
is
available,
we
become
9
aware,
I'm
hoping
that
we
can
build
that
so
that
10
information
is
there.
11
Does
that
make
sense?
Does
it
help?
12
But
it's
a
process,
we're
not
there
13
yet,
but
that's
the
vision.
14
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
One
final
question
I
15
have
is,
then
you
say
like
a
grant
recipient
in
16
the
state
of
Montana
sets
a
goal
with
you,
what
17
is
the
ramifications
to
the
state
if
they
do
not
18
meet
the
goal?
19
MS.
BROWN:
There
are
a
number
of
20
things
that
we
can
do.
We
will
question
and
21
find
out
and
look
at
the
documentation
and
see
22
why.
We
will
look
at
how
that
goal
was
23
established
and
see
if
it
needs
to
be
24
renegotiated
and/
or
changed.
If
we
constantly
25
see
that
somebody
has
negotiated
a
goal
at
10%
0061
1
and
they
come
in
at
2%
over
and
over
and
over
2
again
or
less
than
that,
or
whatever,
we
can
3
take
race
neutral
and
race
conscious
efforts.
4
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
You
cannot
do
race
5
conscious
goals,
those
are
project
specific
6
goals
and
that's
what
we
do
in
our
program.
7
MS.
BROWN:
Race
and
gender
conscious
8
efforts.
9
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Right,
and
that's
10
where
you're
setting
project
specific
goals.
11
MS.
BROWN:
Right.
And
so
that's
12
something
else
that
we'll
begin
to
take
a
look
13
at.
14
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
So
you're
just
using
15
race
neutral?
16
MS.
BROWN:
Yes,
right
now.
17
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Okay.
18
MS.
BROWN:
But
we
recognize
that
we
do
19
have
that
as
a
possibility
too
if
we
see
a
20
constant
pattern.
We
can
call
them
into
21
question
and
say
what's
going
on?
We
will
be
22
looking
at
this
a
lot,
lot
more.
Before
it
was
23
8%
in
all
the
grants
that
we
put
out,
just
8%
24
across
the
board.
But
after
Adarand
we
know
we
25
can't
do
that,
and
some
are
as
high
as
30%
0062
1
depending
on
what
portions
of
the
country
we're
2
in.
Some
are
as
low
as
2%.
3
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
So
you
can
get
the
4
information
also
of
how
well
the
state
has
done
5
in
meeting
their
goal
in
the
past,
that
6
information
is
available?
7
MS.
BROWN:
We
do
a
report
to
Congress
8
but
because
of
how
our
grant
program
is
run
and
9
when,
we
may
be
under
on
some
of
these
grants,
10
depending
on
the
project,
it
may
not
be
in
the
11
same
fiscal
year
and
so
they
overlap,
and
so
12
it's
kind
of
difficult.
While
we
report,
and
13
we're
reporting
to
Congress
what
we
thought
was
14
the
accomplishment
when
you
really
looked
into
15
it,
it
may
have
been
some
grant
money
that
came
16
two
or
three
years
ago,
but
we
counted
it
in
17
that
fiscal
year.
Do
you
see
what
I'm
saying?
18
So
to
a
certain
extent,
it's
difficult
to
19
identify.
20
Say
if
they
have
a
major
wastewater
21
treatment
plant
and
the
contracts
don't
come
for
22
two
years
down
the
road
but
it
was
awarded
in
23
this
fiscal
year,
and
they
didn't
do
anything
24
this
fiscal
year
in
terms
of
contracting
because
25
of
the
planning,
is
it
fair
to
assess
or
say
0063
1
that
they
didn't
meet
that
goal
because
they
2
didn't
have
any
contracts
that
they
were
going
3
to
award.
And
so
we
count
it
in
the
year
that
4
it
is
actually
being
done,
I
guess,
in
my
report
5
to
Congress,
and
we
need
to
take
a
look
at
that.
6
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
But
at
least
it
gives
7
you
a
snapshot
idea
of
what's
going
on
in
our
8
state.
9
MS.
BROWN:
It
does.
It
gives
us
an
10
idea
of
what's
going,
and
the
reports
that
we
11
get
annually,
or
quarterly,
depending
on
the
12
requirement
in
the
grant,
it
gives
us
a
picture
13
of
what's
going
on
and
you
can
go
back
and
flag
14
some
things
and
we
haven't
been
able
to
do
that.
15
So
from
that
perspective,
yes,
but
I
need
to
16
be
careful
when
we
say
for
this
fiscal
year
this
17
was
it,
because
that
may
have
been
old
money
and
18
we
may
not
have
seen
any
contracting
19
opportunities
for
two
or
three
years
down
the
20
road.
21
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Okay,
thank
you.
22
MS.
BROWN:
Any
other
comments
or
23
questions?
24
(
No
reponse.)
25
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay,
moving
right
along.
0064
1
The
final
exception
is
one
that
only
2
applies
to
tribes.
That
exemption
is
that
3
grants
that
are
eligible
to
be
included
in
a
PPG
4
or
grants
that
are
TAG
grants
are
exempted
from
5
negotiation
requirements
for
tribes
only.
6
Now,
one
of
the
things
we
looked
at
7
when
we
exempted
PPG
eligible
grants
was
that
8
that
will
effectively
exempt
grants
in
17
9
different
grant
categories.
There
are
17
types
10
of
grants
that
are
eligible
to
be
rolled
into
11
PPGs.
Each
one
of
those
would
be
exempt.
12
So
when
we
said
we
ran
our
numbers
and
13
we
used
Region
10
as
a
test
case
because
they
14
have
a
large
number
of
tribes,
close
to
272,
15
something
like
that,
once
we
backed
out
the
16
$
250,00
requirement
and
then
backed
out
the
ones
17
with
PPG
eligible
and
TAG
grants,
we
were
left
18
with
25
that
have
to
negotiate.
That's
an
19
effective
exemption
from
our
standpoint,
going
20
from
272
negotiations
to
25.
That's
huge.
21
Like
I
said
before,
our
main
focus
is
22
to
make
sure
that
those
six
affirmative
efforts
23
in
things
like
reporting,
that's
the
hard
core
24
facts
that
we
really
want
to
make
sure
never
25
goes
away.
Negotiations
we
can
give
a
little
0065
1
on,
that's
why
we
have
the
exemptions
in
there.
2
From
an
administrative
standpoint,
it
just
made
3
sense
for
us
to
do
it.
4
Let's
see,
because
we
know
that
the
5
negotiations
for
tribes
in
insular
areas
and
the
6
trust
territories
is
something
that
is
brand
7
new,
and
we
know
that
it
takes
time
to
develop
8
availability
analyses
and
disparity
studies,
we
9
have
instituted
a
three­
year
phase­
in
period
for
10
the
tribes
and
trust
territories
in
insular
11
areas.
12
This
does
not
mean
that
we
want
the
13
tribes
to
wait
until
the
last
day
of
year
three
14
to
come
forth
and
do
the
negotiations.
It
is
15
our
hope
that
doing
the
three­
year
phase­
in
16
period
a
number
of
things
will
occur.
17
First
and
foremost,
tribes
that
have
18
systems
in
place
and
the
capabilities
to
go
19
ahead
and
go
forth
and
negotiate,
we
want
you
to
20
go
ahead
and
do
it
so
that
you
can
be
sort
of
21
leaders
in
that
particular
area
and
be
an
22
example
of
how
this
process
can
be
good,
and
how
23
it
can
go
smoothly.
24
The
second
thing
we
want
to
use
that
25
time
to
educate,
educate
and
educate.
We
want
0066
1
to
go
out
and
do
some
more
training
specifically
2
for
the
tribes,
the
grant
recipients
that
are
3
tribal
grant
recipients
to
make
sure
they
4
understand
the
new
things
that
are
in
place.
5
During
that
period,
that's
going
to
be
our
6
charge,
to
make
sure
that
the
training
is
done,
7
that
you
understand
what
the
processes
are
going
8
to
be.
And
so
that's
the
reason
why
we
have
a
9
three­
year
phase­
in
period.
10
Any
questions
about
that?
11
(
No
response.)
12
MS.
BROWN:
Now,
there
may
be
some
13
opportunities
available
with
the
young
lady
from
14
yesterday.
We're
working
with
the
National
15
Center.
If
there
are
other
organizations
that
16
have
some
ideas
in
terms
of
how
we
can
best
do
17
this
to
get
the
training
to
the
tribes,
we
will
18
be
open
to
hear
from
you,
to
take
a
look
at
how
19
we
can
get
this
out
there
to
the
tribal
20
communities.
21
We
don't
have
a
set
plan
all
together
22
yet,
we're
working
on
that,
so
now
is
the
time
23
to
come
forward,
to
identify
yourselves,
to
say
24
what
your
capabilities
are
so
that
we
can
see
25
who
is
out
there
and
come
up
with
how
we
want
to
0067
1
go
about
this.
2
We
have
been
very
pleased
with
the
3
support
and
the
effort
that
we've
gotten
from
4
the
National
Center,
but
we're
also
looking
at
5
the
possibility
of
splitting
the
country
in
half
6
and
having
one
contract
that
happens
on
this
7
side
and
one
contract
on
the
other
side.
8
Those
are
just
some
of
the
things
that
9
I'm
considering
as
the
manager
of
the
process,
10
to
kind
of
spread
the
wealth
around
and
also
to
11
get
more
information
in
the
hands
of
some
other
12
organizations
as
well.
13
So
if
you
know
of
some
other
14
organizations,
and
we
haven't
even
begun
15
discussions
with
the
National
Center
about
this,
16
but
that's
where
I'm
going.
And
I
recognize
17
that
there
is
a
need,
we
want
to
put
more
18
training
out
there,
and
so
I'd
just
offer
that
19
up.
If
you
all
know
of
organizations
that
we
20
can
work
with,
please
by
all
means
have
them
21
contact
us
and
we
can
take
a
look
at
what's
22
available.
23
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay,
we're
heading
24
toward
the
home
stretch
now.
25
Last
major
section
is
on
record
keeping
0068
1
and
reporting.
For
the
first
time
EPA
is
going
2
to
require
that
a
recipient
on
a
continuing
3
environmental
program
grant
or
other
annual
4
grant
be
required
to
create
and
maintain
a
5
bidder's
list.
Such
a
list
must
be
only
be
kept
6
until
the
grant
project
period
has
expired
and
7
the
recipient
is
no
longer
receiving
funding
8
under
the
grant.
9
In
addition,
a
recipient
of
EPA
10
financial
assistance
agreement
to
capitalize
a
11
revolving
loan
fund,
better
known
as
Brownfields
12
SRF
Loan
Program,
must
also
require
entities
13
receiving
identified
loans
to
create
and
14
maintain
a
bidder's
list
if
the
loan
recipient
15
is
subject
to,
or
chooses
to
following
16
competitive
bidding
requirements.
17
Finally,
the
purpose
of
the
bidder's
18
list
is
to
provide
the
recipient
and
entities
19
receiving
identified
loans
who
conduct
20
competitive
bidding
with
as
accurate
of
database
21
as
possible
about
the
universe
of
MBE/
WBE
and
22
non­
MBE/
WBE
prime
and
subcontractors.
23
Okay,
this
basically
is
a
provision
24
that
at
the
recipient
level
helps
them
to
25
create,
like
I
say,
a
universe
of
what's
0069
1
available
so
that
they
can't
keep
coming
back
2
and
saying
we
don't
know
where
they
are.
We
3
don't
know
where
they
are.
Well,
they
bid
on
4
your
project
the
last
time.
If
you
maintain
a
5
bidder's
list,
you'd
know
where
they
were.
You
6
wouldn't
have
to
keep
going
back
and
searching
7
sometimes
because
you
already
this
list
that
8
you've
maintained
of
who
has
bid
on
your
9
contracts
and
who's
available
to
do
the
work
on
10
the
second
and
third.
And
so
that's
really
a
11
mechanism
that's
good
for
the
recipient
to
have
12
as
a
resource
that
we
hope
will
become
a
13
database
they
can
draw
on,
they
can
continually
14
add
to.
15
Such
a
list
must
only
be
kept
until
the
16
project
period
for
the
identified
loan
has
17
ended.
Recipients
are
required
to
comply
with
18
these
record
keeping
requirements
even
if
they
19
are
exempt
from
applying
the
fair
share
20
negotiations,
fair
share
objectives
or
goals.
21
That's
very
important.
That's
another
22
one
of
those
provisions
that
does
not
go
away
23
when
we
have
exemption
for
the
goals.
When
we
24
say
those
exemptions
only
apply
to
the
goals,
I
25
can't
say
this
enough.
We
mean
it's
only
the
0070
1
goals.
Everything
else
about
this
program
is
in
2
place.
You
just
won't
be
operating
with
a
3
certain
percentage
of
a
goal.
4
The
next
section
is
waivers,
the
OSDBU
5
director
has
the
ability
to
grant
waivers
to
any
6
requirements
of
Part
33,
which
is
where
this
7
rule
will
reside,
that
are
not
based
on
a
8
statute
or
Executive
Order.
That's
just
extra
9
language
in
there
that
gives
our
director
the
10
opportunity
to
make
waivers,
it's
not
something
11
that's
required
by
the
statute.
There's
no
such
12
rule
in
there
for
her.
13
Any
questions
on
the
rule
thing
before
14
I
say
what
I
was
going
to
say
next?
15
CLIFFORD
COILER:
(
Phonetic)
Okay,
I'm
16
Clifford
Coiler
and
I'm
here
from
Tacoma.
I
17
have
a
question
with
this
bidder's
list,
if
a
18
prime
contractor
develops
their
list
and
that's
19
the
only
list
they
use,
how
do
they
generate
20
some
new
people
on
the
list?
21
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
you
add
people
to
22
your
list
because
you
continue
your
six
good
23
faith
efforts.
Just
because
you
have
a
list,
24
that
doesn't
mean
that
you
stop
there.
The
six
25
efforts
are
six
different
efforts
to
use
to
go
0071
1
out
and
find
MBE/
WBE
contractors,
and
so
as
you
2
continue
to
go
through
those
six
steps,
every
3
single,
solitary
time
you
do
a
procurement,
that
4
will
help
your
list
to
grow
with
new
people.
5
You
still
have
to
go
out
and
continue
to
look
6
and
do
these
things.
7
MS.
BROWN:
When
we
were
in
either
8
Albuquerque
or
Atlanta,
I'm
trying
to
remember
9
which
one,
a
lot
of
questions
came
up
on
what
we
10
consider
a
bidder's
mailing
list
and
how
that
11
should
be
interpreted.
Is
it
the
people
that
12
have
bid
before,
or
is
it
the
people
that
are
in
13
the
area
but
they
didn't
bid,
but
I
know
they
14
exist
from
other
listings,
or
is
it
only
the
15
people
that
came
in?
I
mean
we
had
questions
16
all
over
the
place.
17
We
will
be
taking
this
back
and
looking
18
at
that
to
expand
it
a
little
bit
further
in
19
terms
of
what
it
is
that
we're
thinking,
at
20
least
define
what
we
mean
by
bidder's
mailing
21
list.
And
if
you
all
have
any
comments
or
22
questions,
or
things
that
you
would
like
for
us
23
to
consider,
by
all
means
I
need
you
to
bring
up
24
those
as
it
relates
to
that.
25
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Rebecca
Johnson,
0072
1
Montana
Department
of
Transportation.
2
Are
you
aware
of,
and
I
don't
know
how
3
much
you
are
going
to
be
looking
at
tapping
into
4
the
current
system,
like
with
DBE
supportive
5
services,
Indian
preference
TERO
offices,
you
6
know,
that
they
create,
we
have
our
own
7
directories
and
it
just
seems
like
a
very
viable
8
starting
point
for
your
contractors
requiring
to
9
utilize
these
systems
that
are
in
place.
10
MS.
PATRICK:
When
we
have
recipients
11
come
in
and
ask,
okay,
well,
I'm
doing
my
six
12
steps,
where
do
I
go
to
look?
Some
of
the
13
places
you
just
mentioned
are
places
we
direct
14
them
to.
So
we're
saying
if
you
want
to
go
15
look,
here's
a
good
place
to
start,
check
with
16
your
TERO,
check
with
your
state
DBE
offices
or
17
check
with
different
SBA
websites.
Check
18
everywhere.
There's
a
whole
list
of
things
we
19
tell
them
are
sources
they
can
go
to
to
find
20
minority
owned
businesses
and
that's
included
in
21
part
of
that.
22
This
bidder's
list
requirement,
as
I'm
23
envisioning
it,
and
it's
going
to
get
a
little
24
bit
clearer
as
we
go
back
through
the
process
25
and
read
all
the
comments
on
it,
as
I'm
seeing
0073
1
it,
it's
a
list
of
people
who
actually
bid
on
2
the
contract.
And
there's
a
reason
for
that.
3
Well,
this
is
my
vision,
only
my
vision,
because
4
if
we
go
to
a
list
broader
than
that,
it's
not
5
really
a
bidder's
list
because
you're
not
6
including
the
people
who
bid.
7
If
we
want
to
call
it
a
list
of
8
resources,
that's
one
thing,
we
need
to
change
9
the
name
of
it.
But
if
we
call
it
a
bidder's
10
list,
we
need
to
see
people
who
actually
bid
on
11
that
project.
12
MS.
BROWN:
And
from
a
procurement
13
prospective
I
know
a
bidder's
list
is
not
just
14
the
people
that
bid
on
it,
but
we
have
a
15
bidder's
list
that
consisted
of
the
people
who
16
could
possibly
bid
based
on
who
we
mailed
it
out
17
to.
That's
from
my
contracting
background
over
18
on
the
other
side.
I'm
thinking
it
probably
19
needs
to
include
the
potential
from
possible
20
vendors
that
are
out
there
that
are
capable
or
21
able
to
bid.
I
think
that
way
we
will
include
22
more
minority
or
woman­
owned
businesses
not
just
23
the
ones
who
bid
because
then
you
need
to
go
24
into
more
in
terms
of
what
they
did
in
actuality
25
to
get
these
people
to
bid
into
the
good
old
boy
0074
1
network
and
nobody
else
knows
about
it.
2
So
those
are
some
of
the
things
that
3
are
under
discussion
that
we
have
to
work
out
4
with
the
finalization
of
the
rule.
But
that's
5
where
I'm
thinking
and
that's
where
she's
6
thinking,
and
we
will
probably
end
up
I'll
say
7
somewhere
in
the
middle.
8
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Well,
I'll
just
give
9
you
an
example
because
I'm
trying
to
promote
the
10
companies
and
so
I'm
always
looking
for
the
11
opportunities
and
making
them
aware
and
so
I'm
12
out
there
trying
to
encourage
contractors
to
13
contact
me
and
use
my
office.
14
The
Federal
Highway
Administration,
15
Western
Federal
Lands
Administration
just
put
in
16
their
bid
documents.
I
have
an
online
request
17
form
that
contractors
can
use
to
get
the
18
information
to
my
office
which
I
then
send
out
19
to
the
TERO,
TBIC
offices
as
well
as
all
the
DBE
20
companies
of
this
contract
opportunity,
because
21
you
need
that
and
you
need
it
in
a
very
quick
22
response
time
because
some
of
these
project
when
23
they're
advertised,
they're
given
a
week
to
get
24
their
subcontract
quote
to
the
primes.
25
MS.
BROWN:
Just
not
enough
time
to
0075
1
turn
around
and
quote.
2
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Right.
And
so
you
3
need
to
get
more
of
that
where
the
contractors
4
are
coming
to
these
offices
and
resources
and
5
utilizing
them
to
get
that
information
out
as
6
well.
7
MS.
BROWN:
Right.
And
that's
why
we
8
are
looking
at
putting
some
of
those
systems
in
9
place,
and
even
if
we
know
that
there's
a
10
potential
of
contracting,
I'm
not
saying
that
11
they
have
to
do
it,
but
when
we
see
from
these
12
larger
grants
and
maybe
guesstimate
where
they
13
may
be
doing
some
of
the
contracting,
give
them
14
this
information
with
the
grant
package
early
15
on.
16
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Yeah,
and
I've
found
17
it's
more
effective
like
when
it
comes
from
that
18
grant
recipient
and
they're
putting
it
in
their
19
bid
documents,
you
know,
use
this
online
request
20
form
to
get
the
request
out
to
the
companies,
21
contractors
are
more
likely
to
utilize
those
22
systems.
23
MS.
PATRICK:
I
think
I'm
going
to
get
24
a
little
excited,
if
I'm
correct
some
students
25
are
here.
I
feel
the
presence
of
students,
I
0076
1
can
feel
it.
I'm
feeling
like
there's
students
2
in
this
area.
That's
what
I'm
feeling.
I
feel
3
like
whatever
student
wants
to
get
up
and
say
4
what
school
they're
from,
they
have
a
little
5
surprise
in
that
box.
Do
I
have
any
takers
from
6
a
student
who
would
like
to
say
what
school
7
they're
from?
8
NOEL
TWO
LEGGINS:
Good
morning.
My
9
name
is
Noel
Two
Leggins,
I'm
student
vice
10
president
from
Little
Big
Horn
College,
and
I'm
11
here
with
my
fellow
classmates,
and
we're
here
12
to
learn
some
new
things
and
spend
a
little
bit
13
of
time
here.
Thank
you.
14
(
Applause.)
15
MS.
BROWN:
When
we
were
here
last
16
year,
we
had
students
visit
us
and
we
thought
it
17
would
be
good
to
invite
them
again
so
that
they
18
could
see
public
policy
­­
are
you
all
business
19
majors?
That's
even
more
important.
I
was
a
20
business
major
a
long
time
ago.
But
so
that
21
they
could
see
public
policy
in
the
making.
22
Also
one
of
the
things
that
we
23
suggested
the
last
time,
as
many
of
you
are
24
minority
contractors
and
real
busy
and
you're
25
limited
on
your
resources,
well,
students,
I
0077
1
hate
to
say
it,
but
they
can
be
cheap
in
cost
in
2
terms
of
working,
but
they
could
be
very
3
beneficial
to
you
in
searching
the
web,
finding
4
information
on
the
Internet,
getting
in
contact
5
with
folk.
6
So
we're
hoping
that
as
the
minority
7
business
community
comes
together,
we're
8
inclusive
of
the
future
of
this
country
when
we
9
look
at
the
up
and
rising
stars
in
our
colleges
10
and
universities
in
particular,
the
students
11
from
Little
Big
Horn
College.
So
I
would
ask
12
that
all
of
you
think
about
that,
because
they
13
have
a
lot
of
energy.
14
I
have
a
son
that
is
about
to
enter
15
college,
hopefully
in
August.
We're
doing
16
college
applications
and
all
of
that
good
stuff
17
right
now,
and
as
soon
as
he
can
make
up
his
18
mind
where
he's
going
to
go,
but
they
have
a
lot
19
of
good
ideas
and
they
have
a
lot
of
energy,
and
20
that's
something
we
don't
always
possess
after
21
you've
worked
as
long
as
you
have
and
you
have
22
all
of
these
other
things
to
do.
23
So
we
are
thankful
that
you
would
come
24
and
we're
hoping
that
you
will
also
network
with
25
these
business
owners
to
find
out
more
about
the
0078
1
types
of
business
that
they
are
in
and
you
can
2
talk
to
us
about
the
public
policy
formation
3
that
we're
talking
about.
We'll
give
you
some
4
handouts.
5
And
again,
I'd
like
to
welcome
you
and
6
thank
you
for
coming.
7
DARRELL
OLSON:
I'll
make
this
my
last
8
comment
as
an
overall
and
encompassing.
I've
9
heard
a
lot
of
good
vision
out
of
you,
and
since
10
this
is
a
final
rule­
making
process
you're
going
11
through,
I've
heard
a
lot
of
chatter
back
and
12
forth
between
you
all,
we've
got
to
figure
this
13
out,
we've
got
to
figure
that
out,
we've
got
to
14
add
this,
we've
got
to
add
that.
15
By
those
comments,
it
makes
me
fearful
16
that
a
lot
of
your
ideas
aren't
written
down
and
17
your
vision
for
the
program
when
it
hits
the
18
Contracting
Officer
or
the
grant
recipient,
your
19
vision
may
not
really
be
there.
Is
there
going
20
to
be
modifications
to
this
prior
to
it
becoming
21
final,
and
is
there
going
to
be
a
public
review
22
process,
because
it
sounds
like
you've
still
got
23
some
holes
that
need
to
be
finalized
before
it
24
actually
is
ready
to
go
final.
25
MS.
PATRICK:
I'll
take
a
stab
at
that
0079
1
one.
This
is
a
proposed
rule,
okay?
Proposed
2
meaning
we're
putting
this
out
there
to
the
3
public
officially
for
the
first
time
to
get
4
comments.
This
is
the
time
where
not
only
are
5
we
looking
­­
a
lot
of
things
that
we're
going
6
back
and
forth
about
are
things
we
didn't
think
7
of
when
we
first
wrote
this.
These
are
things
8
that
are
coming
out
of
our,
at
this
point,
five
9
months,
four
or
five­
month
process
of
being
on
10
the
road
hearing
new
things
and
new
ideas
and
11
things
we
hadn't
thought
about.
That's
why
12
we're
out
here
now.
This
is
the
time
when
we
13
get
the
comments
back.
14
We
are
required,
and
I
mean
required,
15
to
go
through
every
comment
we
receive.
We
are
16
required
to
consider
those
comments
and
we
also
17
have
to
write
back
to
OMB
our
disposition
on
18
them.
This
is
the
comment,
this
is
our
response
19
to
it,
this
is
the
outcome.
20
So
this
is
not,
this
is
really,
really
21
close
to
being
a
final
document,
but
it's
not
22
concrete
yet.
Now
what
you
see
in
here
are
23
concepts
that
we
will
have
in
the
final
product
24
of
the
rule.
Some
of
the
things
we're
going
25
back
and
forth
about
are
exactly
logistics,
how
0080
1
are
we
going
to
do
it,
but
what's
going
to
be
2
done
is
here.
So
it's
the
little
things
we're
3
going
back
and
forth
on,
like
we're
never
going
4
have
a
bidder's
list.
We
just
need
to
know
what
5
information
we're
going
to
require
on
it,
those
6
types
of
things.
7
DARRELL
OLSON:
But
that
needs
to
be
8
written
down.
9
MS.
PATRICK:
It
will
be.
When
this
10
thing
hits,
comes
out
again
as
a
final
rule,
11
trust
me,
it
will
be
written
down.
It
will
be
12
clear.
Now,
it's
the
contracting
people,
our
13
grant
people,
whoever
this
rule
applies
to,
our
14
job
is
to
make
sure
through
this
process
when
15
someone
gets
this
rule,
it's
a
clear
16
understanding
of
what
it
is
we
want.
17
MS.
BROWN:
For
example,
on
the
18
bidder's
mailing
list,
I
thought
if
you
said
19
bidder's
mailing
list
everybody
understood
what
20
we
meant.
And
that's
coming
from
my
1102
21
contracts
background,
but
when
we
had
meetings
22
around
the
country,
we
got
all
these
questions
23
about
well,
what
exactly
do
you
mean?
Is
it
24
before
or
after
or
does
it
include?
So
that's
25
why
we're
having
these
discussions.
0081
1
Then
I
thought,
oh,
yeah,
I
understand
2
where
people
were
coming
from,
so
that
we
just
3
need
to
go
back
and
define
or
refine
that
a
4
little
bit
more.
5
But
we
will
have
language
about
the
6
bidder's
mailing
list
as
it's
presented
but
we
7
might
go
into
some
refinement
to
explain
in
more
8
detail
what
we
mean
by
that
so
we're
clear
so
9
that
when
you
read
it,
you'll
know
what
I'm
10
talking
about.
11
The
other
one
is
the
provision
on
the
12
number
of
days.
Right
now
we
say
a
specific
13
number
of
days,
but
we
don't
say
how
many
days
a
14
prime
can
go
without
paying
you.
And
a
lot
of
15
people
are
saying
you
need
to
stick
a
number
in
16
there,
45,
30,
something
like
that.
17
We've
been
on
the
road
since
October
18
and
we're
winding
down,
but
these
are
the
kinds
19
of
things
that
we're
getting
and
the
things
that
20
we
know
that
we
need
to
consider
when
we
go
to
21
make
this
final.
22
That's
why
it's
important
that
we
hear
23
from
you.
Don't
think
that
it's
just
going
to
24
go
into
the
pie
in
the
sky
and
nobody
is
going
25
to
respond
or
listen
to
you.
I
can
assure
you,
0082
1
some
of
you
have
been
around
very
early
on
in
2
the
process,
changes
have
come
about
because
of
3
comments
that
we
received
from
audiences
like
4
you.
And
so
I
really
do
need
your
comments.
I
5
really
do
need
you
to
take
this
and
look
at
it
6
and
give
us
comments
so
that
we
can
consider
7
them.
8
KATHY
SMITH:
Hi,
I'm
Kathy
Smith
from
9
Northern
Analytical
Laboratories
here
in
10
Billings.
11
Specifically
about
the
prime
contractor
12
paying
the
subcontractor
and
the
number
of
days
13
in
which
they
need
to
do
that
once
they
are
14
paid,
it's
very
important
to
a
small
business
15
like
ours
to
be
paid
promptly.
And
prompt,
in
16
my
view,
is
15
days,
maximum
30
days.
17
Because
in
this
economic
climate,
while
18
we
have
low
interest
rates,
we're
working
19
probably
on
borrowed
money,
low
interest
rates
20
are
going
to
have
minimal
impact
on
our
21
operations,
whereas,
if
economic
conditions
22
change
and
we're
looking
at
higher
prime
rates
23
and
most
loans
are
tagged
to
the
prime
rate,
as
24
that
goes
up,
the
cost
to
us
of
carrying
the
25
bigger
contractor
becomes
very
important.
And
0083
1
then
our
cash
flow
changes
quickly
and
cash
is
2
it
for
us.
3
So
I
would
encourage
you
to
use
a
4
15­
day
or
a
30­
day
maximum
for
when
the
prime
5
gets
paid
to
when
the
sub
gets
paid.
6
MS.
PATRICK:
And
that's
the
kind
of
7
thing
we
need
a
lot
of,
direct
suggestions.
8
That's
something
when
I
get
the
transcripts
9
back,
I
can
look
at
that,
I
can
say
okay,
10
Jeanette
let's
sit
down
and
talk
about
this
day
11
thing,
we
have
a
suggestion
of
15
days
or
an
12
ultimate
of
30.
13
We're
going
to
read
the
comments.
14
That's
the
type
of
thing
we
need,
so
that
when
15
this
thing
goes
final,
it
will
have
a
number
in
16
there.
Because
that's
one
of
the
things
we've
17
heard
repeatedly.
So
believe
me,
I
think
we're
18
pretty
much
sure,
there's
going
to
a
number
in
19
here
when
it
comes
out.
We
can't
tell
you
what
20
the
number
is
going
to
be,
but
thank
you
very
21
much.
22
ORIANNE
BAKER:
My
name
is
Orianne
23
Baker,
I'm
the
business
manager
for
the
24
Chippewa­
Cree
Tribe.
25
One
of
the
things
that
I
was
thinking
0084
1
about
was
a
comment
yesterday,
was
the
2
marketing,
having
somebody
on
the
computer
3
looking
at
what's
out
there
for
procurement
or
4
marketing
opportunities.
Then
I
was
just
5
thinking
about
when
the
college
students
came
6
in,
it
occurred
to
me
that
it
would
be
great
as
7
far
as
you
mentioned
training,
it
would
be
great
8
if
we
could
utilize
tribal
colleges
for
you
to
9
come
in
and
give
that
training
so
that
we
have
10
students
there
or
some
training
that
goes
on,
on
11
how
to
get
on
the
computer
and
look
at
what's
12
available.
13
Because
I'm
sitting
back
there
14
thinking,
I
have
two
businesses
that
I'm
going
15
to
try
to
modify
and
take
to
8(
a),
and
that
16
comment
yesterday,
and
I
was
thinking
now,
how
17
am
I
going
to
sit
there
and
squeeze
out
time
18
looking
on
the
computer
for
opportunities.
So
19
if
you
could
provide
that
training
it
frees
up
20
my
time
so
I'm
not
sitting
in
front
of
a
21
computer
doing
that,
I
could
move
on
to
other
22
things.
23
MS.
PATRICK:
And
one
thing,
that's
24
exactly
the
kind
of
thinking
we
want
you
all
to
25
do.
Think
outside
the
box.
Your
small
0085
1
businesses,
think
about
resources
you
can
use
2
where
the
cost
isn't
astronomical
but
you
get
3
huge
benefit
from
it.
4
Younger
people,
they
live
computers,
5
it's
what
they
do.
They
know
exactly
where
to
6
go
to
find
stuff
in
seconds.
You
or
I
may
sit
7
there
forever
wandering
around
one
site
thinking
8
okay,
what
is
a
link,
what
is
this,
what
is
9
that?
They
know.
And
so
not
only
does
it
save
10
money,
it
saves
time
and
you
still
get
what
you
11
need
and
they're
also
getting
a
learning
12
experience.
13
ORIANNE
BAKER:
Experience
that
they
14
could
put
on
a
resume
and
plus,
you
know,
I
15
always
said
when
I
was
in
college
that
we
live
16
on
subhuman
standards,
it's
a
little
bit
of
17
money.
18
I
just
wanted
to
put
an
idea
out
there
19
for
something
that
we're
thinking
about
doing
at
20
Rocky
Boy,
but
just
put
it
out
there
maybe
as
a
21
suggestion
or
an
idea
for
other
individuals
here
22
from
other
tribes,
is
that
we're
looking
at
a
23
temp
service,
for
a
profit
temp
service
24
connected
with
our
tribal
colleges
just
for
that
25
reason,
to
provide
experience
plus
a
way
for
0086
1
students
to
make
some
extra
money
while
going
to
2
school.
3
And
that
would
be
a
good
opportunity,
4
maybe
you
could
think
about
that
in
your
5
community
if
you
have
a
tribal
college,
a
temp
6
service
you
could
say
well,
as
a
program
7
director
or
you
could
come
in
and
say
or
as
a
8
small
tribally­
owned
business,
hey,
could
you
9
come,
look
and
see
if
there's
this
kind
of
10
contract.
You're
only
paying
them
for
that
11
short
period
of
time,
but
they
get
experience
12
plus
they
get
a
little
bit
of
money
so
they
13
don't
have
to
live
on
subhuman
standards.
14
MS.
BROWN:
Orianne,
we
need
to
talk
15
after
this,
okay?
16
ORIANNE
BAKER:
Okay.
17
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Just
a
question,
18
comment,
Rebecca
Johnson,
MDT.
19
I
wanted
to
let
you
know
that
MDT
did
20
adopt
under
state
law
on
construction
projects,
21
they
have
a
prompt
payment
law
that
requires­­
22
our
problem
that
we
tried
to
address
was
the
23
prime
contractors
paying
the
subs,
and
it's
24
seven
days.
Seven
days,
once
they
are
paid
they
25
are
required
to
pay
their
subs
in
seven
days
and
0087
1
that's
part
of
our
policies
and
procedures.
2
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you,
thank
you,
3
that's
great.
4
MS.
BROWN:
Can
we
find
that?
5
MS.
PATRICK:
Can
you
give
us
the
cite
6
to
that
or
what
the
wording
of
the
regulation
7
is?
8
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Sure,
I
can
get
that
9
to
you.
10
MS.
PATRICK:
There's
no
reason
why
11
they
shouldn't.
Once
they've
been
paid,
there's
12
no
reason.
So
that's
good
to
know.
13
The
rule
stuff,
how
to
do
the
comments
14
and
everything,
if
you
look
at
the
full
text
of
15
the
rule
that
I
gave
you,
the
one
that's
in
the
16
nice
little
booklet,
the
thick
one,
it
has
on
17
there
all
the
different
ways
you
can
submit
your
18
comments
to
us.
19
If
you
did
not
make
a
comment
here
20
today
verbally,
you
could
send
it
in
writing,
we
21
accept
them
by
fax,
by
e­
mail,
any
type
of
way
22
you
want
to
get
them
to
us,
we
will
receive
the
23
comment.
So
make
sure
you
take
a
look.
It
24
should
be
on
the
first
page
detailing
the
25
different
places
you
go
to
to
send
in
your
0088
1
comments
including
the
website
that
you
can
use
2
to
do
that.
So
make
sure
you
take
advantage
of
3
it
­­
second
page,
sorry.
4
Also,
we
had
a
good
question
yesterday,
5
Jim
had
asked
us
when
we
talked
about
as
a
6
business
owner,
how
do
you
find
out
about
7
activities
or
procurements
that
occur
under
a
8
grant.
On
the
direct
side,
it's
really
easy,
9
the
solicitations
come
directly
from
EPA,
you
go
10
to
fedbizopps.
But
how
do
you
find
that
$
4.2
11
billion
that's
possibly
available
under
a
grant?
12
You
need
to
write
this
down,
www.
epa.
gov/
ogd.
13
That
is
the
site
that
will
take
you
to
the
EPA's
14
Office
of
Grants
and
Debarment.
15
Once
you
are
there,
follow
the
links
to
16
the
grants
side
of
the
web
page.
You
will
see
a
17
link
on
that
page
that
allows
you
to
get
into
18
something
called
GICS,
which
is
the
grants
19
information
computer
system
or
something
like
20
that,
I
forget
what
it
stands
for,
but
it's
21
called
GICS
is
what
you'll
see,
G­
I­
C­
S.
22
Once
you
go
there,
that
database
will
23
allow
you
to
search
for
grant
opportunities.
24
Once
you
find
out
who
has
the
money,
your
next
25
step
is
to
go
to
that
entity
directory.
Find
0089
1
out
what
their
procurement
practices
or
their
2
procurement
may
be
under
that
grant.
So
for
3
example,
you
go
into
GICS,
you
find
out
the
4
Montana
water
authority
just
a
grant
for
a
new
5
treatment
system.
6
Your
job
as
a
business
owner
would
be
7
contact
the
water
board,
water
treatment
8
authority,
whatever,
find
out
what
their
plan
is
9
for
using
that
grant.
Find
out
if
they
plan
on
10
doing
any
procurements
under
that
grant.
Align
11
yourself,
make
yourself
ready
to
be
on
the
12
project.
That's
how
from
your
perspective
you
13
find
out
what's
going
on.
14
On
the
other
end,
the
recipient
is
15
supposed
to
solicit
and
all
that
other
good
16
stuff
to
come
with
the
six
good
faith
efforts
17
for
procurements
under
the
grant,
but
for
your
18
side,
sometimes
it
works
better
if
you
work
from
19
both
angles
to
find
out
where
the
money
is.
20
There's
no
harm
in
asking
the
question
if
you
21
know
they
got
the
money.
22
MS.
BROWN:
The
other
part
to
that
too
23
is
to
contact
MBE/
WBE
coordinator
in
your
region
24
because
they
have
a
representative
from
that
25
organization
that
they're
in
contact
with,
the
0090
1
one
that
they
negotiate
with,
et
cetera,
to
make
2
sure,
because
sometimes
we
get
calls
from
other
3
entities
saying
I'm
looking
for
a
minority
4
business,
like
the
lady
from
the
state
DOT
does.
5
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
But
the
problem
with
6
your
projects,
they
are
advertised
only
locally.
7
They
don't
go
through
a
central
office
like
DEQ
8
and
then
can,
you
know,
broadcast
it.
It's
just
9
given
to
that
city.
10
In
Belgrade,
they
just
had
a
big
11
project
that
they
just
advertised
in
their
local
12
paper.
So,
you
know,
it's
a
difficult
process
13
of
learning
of
all
the
opportunities
in
the
14
state
unless
you
happen
to
get
that
local
paper.
15
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
what
I
was
saying,
16
sometimes
you
have
to
go
the
other
way,
you
17
know,
if
you
take
it
on
yourself
as
a
business
18
owner
to
say
well,
I'm
going
to
find
out,
you
19
know,
the
government
got
the
grant,
then
you
20
could
pick
up
the
phone
and
say
look
here,
I
21
know
you
have
this
project
going
on,
send
me
a
22
copy
of
the
solicitation.
I
don't
get
the
23
Belgrade
local
gazette,
I
don't
get
that,
so
I
24
want
to
know
what
the
specifics
are
or
send
me
a
25
copy
of
it
because
we
know
that
sometimes
0091
1
recipients
do
not
advertise
very
broadly,
but
we
2
just
want
to
make
sure
that
you
all
know
where
3
to
go
and
find
the
money
in
the
case
that
they
4
don't.
5
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Rebecca
Johnson,
6
Montana
Department
of
Transportation.
7
If
you
start
pushing
harder
from
the
8
top
down
to
your
grant
recipients
and
then
they
9
go
to
their
city
administrators,
requiring
them
10
to
start
utilizing
some
more
of
these
resources
11
to
get
that
information
out,
because
Belgrade
is
12
not
located
anywhere
near
where
the
majority
of
13
your
minority
and
women­
owned
businesses
are
so
14
they're
not
aware
of
this
opportunity.
If
they
15
start
going
through
my
office
and
going
to
the
16
TBIC
and
TERO
offices
and
different
17
organizations
like
that,
you're
going
to
get
a
18
much
broader
scope
of
who
is
now
aware
of
these
19
opportunities.
20
MS.
BROWN:
Question
for
you,
Belgrade,
21
when
they
got
the
grant,
was
that
to
them
22
directly
or
was
it
given
to
the
state
and
the
23
state
parceled
it
out?
24
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
It
was
given
to
the
25
state,
and
then
the
state,
I
believe
0092
1
administered
it,
but
Belgrade
was
the
one
that
2
built
the
water
treatment
facility.
3
MS.
BROWN:
Would
there
have
been
a
sub
4
grant
recipient?
5
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Right.
But
they
are
6
given
the
responsibility
to
advertise
and,
you
7
know,
do
the
work
involved
in
­­
8
MS.
BROWN:
So
you
as
the
state
grant
9
recipient
could
have
required
them
to
expand
10
their
outreach.
11
REBECCA
JOHNSON:
Right,
exactly.
Yes.
12
Where
I
think
if
you're
pushing
on
them
to
13
achieve
that
goal
and
really
saying
you're
down,
14
we
need
to
see
you
bring
these
numbers
up,
15
they're
going
to
get
tougher
and
make
sure
that
16
then
the
people
that
are
there
providing
that
17
money
are
also
working
harder
to
get
that
goal
18
achieved.
19
MS.
BROWN:
Right,
okay,
we
understand
20
each
other.
21
Any
other
comments
or
questions,
22
thoughts?
23
Does
it
make
sense?
Yes?
Okay,
that's
24
good
to
know.
25
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
we're
done
and
so
0093
1
we're
done
early,
which
means
we're
going
to
2
have
a
lovely
long
lunch.
3
MS.
JEPSON:
No.
4
MS.
BROWN:
We
do
give
them
a
break
5
right,
because
we
haven't
had
a
break?
6
MS.
JEPSON:
One
moment,
first
things
7
first.
8
Kimberly
and
Jeanette,
on
behalf
of
the
9
National
Center
and
the
Indian
community,
I'd
10
like
to
offer
these
gifts
to
you.
We
really
11
appreciate
your
support.
It's
not
always
common
12
that
people
come
down
from
D.
C.
and
talk
at
this
13
level
to
the
people,
and
it's
really
14
appreciated.
15
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.
16
MS.
BROWN:
Thank
you.
17
(
Whereupon,
the
meeting
was
concluded
18
at
11:
05
a.
m.)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0094
1
REPORTER'S
CERTIFICATE
2
3
TITLE:
National
Center
for
American
Enterprise
Development
4
HEARING
DATE:
January
8,
2004
5
LOCATION:
Northern
Hotel,
Billings,
Montana
6
7
8
I
hereby
certify
that
the
proceedings
9
herein
are
contained
fully
and
accurately
on
the
10
tapes
recorded
by
me
at
the
conference
before
11
the
National
Center
for
American
Indian
12
Enterprise
Development,
and
that
this
is
a
true
13
and
correct
transcript
of
the
same.
14
15
DATE:
January
26,
2004
16
17
Marilyn
S.
Niezwaag
18
Big
Sky
Reporting
P.
O.
Box
20941
19
Billings,
Montana
59104
20
21
22
23
24
25
