0001
1
THE
AMERICAN
INDIAN/
ALASKA
NATIVE
2
PUBLIC
HEARING,
COUNSELING
SESSION
3
&
BUSINESS
FAIR
4
NATIONAL
CENTER
FOR
AMERICAN
INDIAN
5
ENTERPRISE
DEVELOPMENT
6
7
TRANSCRIPT
OF
PROCEEDINGS
8
January
7,
2004
9
10
The
above­
entitled
conference
was
held
11
at
the
Northern
Hotel,
Billings,
Montana,
on
12
January
7
and
8,
2004.
13
14
15
APPEARANCES:
16
Jeanette
L.
Brown,
Director
U.
S.
Environmental
Protection
Agency
17
Office
of
Small
and
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization
18
1200
Pennsylvania
Avenue,
N.
W.
Washington,
D.
C.
20460
19
Kimberly
Patrick
20
Attorney
Advisor
U.
S.
Environmental
Protection
Agency
21
Office
of
Small
and
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization
22
1200
Pennsylvania
Avenue,
N.
W.
Washington,
D.
C.
20460
23
24
25
0002
1
P
R
O
C
E
E
D
I
N
G
S
2
9:
05
a.
m.
3
MS.
JEPSON:
Well,
we're
going
to
get
4
started
now.
I
want
to
welcome
everybody.
I'm
5
glad
you
made
it.
It's
pretty
chilly
outside,
6
but
this
is
Montana.
7
My
name
is
Mary
Conway
Jepson.
I'm
8
with
the
National
Center
for
American
Indian
9
Enterprise
Development,
and
we've
been
assisting
10
Jeanette
Brown
and
Kimberly
and
the
EPA
in
11
putting
on
these
conferences
and
the
hearings
12
over
the
last
two
months.
We've
been
all
over
13
the
United
States
on
Indian
reservations
and
14
many
other
places.
15
I
want
to
welcome
you
today,
and
I
hope
16
to
make
this
a
really
great
marketing
experience
17
for
you;
that
you
learn
a
lot
from
Jeanette,
and
18
also
that
you
are
able
to
speak
with
some
of
the
19
other
people
that
are
going
to
be
here
today
20
that
we
planned,
today
and
tomorrow.
21
First
of
all,
I'd
like
to
go
over
a
22
little
bit
some
housekeeping
things.
Everybody
23
should
have
a
packet,
and
in
that
packet
is
the
24
Agenda,
of
course,
and
also
some
surveys.
25
And
we
really
do
appreciate
your
0003
1
comments.
If
you
could,
at
the
end
of
the
day
2
make
sure
that
you
complete
this
and
either
3
leave
it
on
the
table
or
make
sure
that
someone
4
from
our
staff
is
able
to
get
them.
5
Also,
I
don't
know
if
you
realize
it,
6
but
the
Great
Northern
is
a
very
historical
7
hotel.
They
have
set
up
some
luncheon
specials,
8
and
we've
put
a
copy
of
the
menu
in
here,
and
if
9
you'd
like
to
circle
them
and
hand
them
in,
that
10
would
help
them
a
lot.
I
encourage
you
to
take
11
advantage
of
the
restaurant
so
you
won't
have
to
12
go
outside
and
freeze.
13
They
also
have
a
really
great
gift
shop
14
here,
and
you
might
take
a
few
minutes
to
look
15
at
some
of
the
local
Montana
merchandise
that
16
they've
got.
17
Now,
I'd
like
to
first
of
all
introduce
18
our
premier
speaker,
who
is
Jeanette
Brown.
19
Jeanette
Brown
has
been
very
supportive
of
20
Native
Americans
and
small
businesses
all
over
21
the
United
States,
and
she
is
the
head
of
the
22
Small
Business
Office
for
the
EPA
in
Washington,
23
D.
C.
So
she's
a
really
nice
person
to
know
in
a
24
lot
of
different
ways.
25
So
I
encourage
you,
they
do
have
a
0004
1
table
also
over
here,
and
if
you're
interested
2
in
doing
some
business
with
them,
that
might
be
3
a
real
good
thing
for
you
to
do.
4
Also,
we're
going
to
have
some
other
5
tables
over
here,
and
I
encourage
you
to
take
6
the
time
to
look
and
to
speak
with
the
person
so
7
that
you
can
figure
out
how
to
do
some
business
8
with
that
particular
agency.
9
So
far,
some
people
are
coming
in
a
10
little
bit
later
on
today,
but
some
of
the
ones
11
I've
seen
so
far
have
been
the
GSA,
the
General
12
Services
Administration,
they're
here.
They
13
take
care
of
all
the
buildings
that
the
Federal
14
Government
uses.
15
There's
a
lot
of
construction
things,
a
16
lot
of
things
that
go
into
that.
They
will
be
17
speaking
tomorrow.
But
the
representatives
are
18
here
today,
so
take
your
time
and
have
some
19
one­
on­
one
meetings
with
them.
20
Also,
SBA
is
going
to
be
here.
Some
21
people
were
asking
me
about
grants
and
loans
and
22
some
of
those
other
things.
You
should
take
23
some
time
to
spend
with
Robert
Much.
He's
going
24
to
be
the
representative,
and
he's
actually
very
25
helpful,
especially
with
Native
American
0005
1
businesses,
the
8(
a)
Program.
He's
2
knowledgeable
about
all
of
the
SBA
programs.
3
Also,
the
Department
of
Transportation
4
will
be
here.
They've
been
helpful.
There's
a
5
lot
of
Department
of
Transportation
work.
On
6
the
federal
side,
the
Department
of
7
Transportation
have
goals
to
meet,
so
they're
8
interested
in
meeting
you
also.
9
Another
one
would
be
the
USDA
Rural
10
Development,
Bob
Parsley
is
here.
He
knows
a
11
lot
about
block
grants
and
some
of
the
other
12
programs
in
the
Rural
Development
and
on
the
13
reservations.
He
would
be
also
very
helpful.
14
He's
in
the
back.
I
see
him
back
there
now.
15
So
with
that,
and
if
you
have
any
16
questions,
please
feel
free
to
ask.
We
want
to
17
make
this
as
congenial
as
possible.
And
you'll
18
find
Jeanette
to
be
a
very
nice
person
and
easy
19
to
talk
to.
20
We
encourage
you
to
communicate
with
21
not
only
the
government
people,
but
also
other
22
people
who
may
be
in
this
audience
who
may
have
23
work
or
have
some
ideas
about
what's
going
on
24
out
in
the
contracting
arenas.
25
So
with
that,
I
want
to
say
a
few
0006
1
things
about
Jeanette.
Jeanette
Brown
is
a
2
member
of
the
Senior
Executive
Service
with
an
3
exceptional
government
career
spanning
over
23
4
years.
She
has
served
as
the
Director
of
the
5
Small
Business
Administration
8(
a)
Program
and
6
as
the
Director
of
its
Office
of
Contracts
and
7
Grants
Management.
8
Mrs.
Brown
joined
EPA
in
1993
and
has
9
served
as
the
Deputy
Director
of
the
Office
of
10
Acquisition
Management.
She
currently
serves
as
11
the
Director
of
the
Office
of
Small
and
12
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization,
where
she
13
serves
as
an
advocate
for
the
small
and
socially
14
and
economically
disadvantaged
business
15
communities,
ensuring
that
these
communities
are
16
provided
an
equitable
opportunity
to
receive
a
17
fair
share
of
contracts
and
sub
agreements.
18
So,
I
would
strongly
encourage
you
to
19
listen
to
what
she
has
today
about
some
of
the
20
changes
in
her
programs,
and
also
doing
business
21
with
her.
22
So
with
that,
I'd
like
to
present
23
Jeanette
Brown.
24
MS.
BROWN:
Good
morning.
It's
getting
25
a
little
bit
warmer
in
here.
That's
a
good
0007
1
thing.
2
Again,
I'd
like
to
greet
you
and
3
welcome
you
to
this
outreach
session,
this
4
conference
to
bring
opportunities
from
the
5
federal
sector
to
you
here
in
this
part
of
the
6
country.
It
is
indeed
an
honor
for
me
to
be
7
here.
8
We
were
here
last
year,
and
the
9
response
was
so
tremendous.
This
is
the
first
10
time
that
we
had
done
this.
We
made
a
promise
11
then
that
we
would
be
back.
When
we
did
that,
I
12
guess
it
was
about
50o
when
we
came
in
November,
13
so
I
didn't
experience
the
cold.
It
was
right
14
before
you
had
a
major
snow,
and
by
the
time
we
15
got
here,
it
was
all
gone.
But
we
are
indeed
16
glad
to
be
here
with
you,
even
in
the
cold.
17
I'm
hoping
that
the
information
that
we
18
have
to
share
with
you
will
warm
your
hearts
and
19
also
inspire
you
to
look
into
ways
to
do
20
business
not
only
with
EPA,
but
the
Federal
21
Government.
22
Before
I
get
into
a
little
bit
about
23
who
we
are
and
what
it
is
that
we're
planning
to
24
do,
we
have
an
important
message
that
has
come
25
from
Washington,
D.
C.
about
this
event
and
to
0008
1
greet
you.
So
this
is
coming
from
Max
Baucus,
2
who
is
your
senator
here
from
Montana,
and
it
3
says
this.
It's
dated
January
the
7th,
2004.
4
"
Dear
Friends:
Greetings
5
from
Washington.
I
am
6
sorry
that
I
could
not
be
7
with
you
for
your
8
conference
today,
but
9
Senate
business
keeps
me
in
10
Washington.
I
want
to
11
thank
you
all
for
coming
to
12
Billings
for
this
event.
13
"
I
applaud
the
14
Environmental
Protection
15
Agency
and
the
National
16
Center
for
American
Indian
17
Enterprise
Development
for
18
sponsoring
this
American
19
business/
Alaskan
Native
20
small
business
development
21
event.
22
"
Procurement
of
federal
23
grants
and
contracts
are
24
crucial
to
the
development
25
of
Native
American
small
0009
1
business
both
on
and
off
2
the
reservations.
Tribes
3
suffer
from
economic
4
disparities
in
far
greater
5
numbers
than
any
other
6
group
in
the
nation.
7
That's
why
the
work
you
are
8
doing
in
this
conference
is
9
so
very
important.
10
"
Over
the
next
two
days,
11
you
will
be
covering
a
lot
12
of
issues
that
are
critical
13
to
the
economic
development
14
of
our
Native
American
and
15
minority­
owned
small
16
businesses
throughout
the
17
west.
18
"
I
encourage
you
to
reach
19
out
and
work
together
to
20
learn
and
understand
how
to
21
best
maximize
your
22
opportunities
as
small
23
businesses
or
small
24
business
owners.
In
doing
25
so,
my
part
in
Washington,
0010
1
my
top
priority
is
working
2
together
to
boost
your
3
state's
economy
and
to
4
create
more
good
paying
5
jobs
in
Montana.
6
"
I
invite
you
to
stop
by
7
my
office
if
you
are
ever
8
in
Washington,
D.
C."
9
You
need
to
take
him
up
on
that.
10
"
Hope
you
have
a
good
11
event.
Work
hard,
and
I
12
hope
to
see
you
soon.
13
"
With
best
personal
14
regards,
I
am
sincerely",
and
it's
15
signed
Max
Baucus.
16
We
do
have
representatives
from
his
17
office
here.
They're
going
to
be
here
18
throughout
the
day.
So
take
advantage
of
the
19
representatives
that
will
be
here
throughout
the
20
next
two
days
to
talk
to
them
about
who
you
are,
21
what
it
is
that
you're
doing,
and
what
it
is
22
that
you
need
out
here
in
this
part
of
the
23
country
in
terms
of
doing
business.
24
Now
that
we've
done
that
and
have
taken
25
care
of
the
formal,
what
you'll
find
out
from
me
0011
1
is
I'm
very
informal.
I
like
to
get
to
know
you
2
and
find
out
who
you
are
and
what
goods
and
3
services
you
bring.
4
One
of
the
things
that
we
do
when
I
go
5
around
the
country,
I
try
to
find
out
just
that,
6
who
you
are.
So
you're
going
to
have
shortly
a
7
two­
second
Hall
of
Fame.
You
get
to
tell
me
in
8
two
seconds
what
it
is
you
do
and
who
you
are,
9
and
I
want
to
know
what
kind
of
business
you
10
have,
if
it's
small,
8(
a),
woman­
owned,
because
11
those
are
hit
words
for
us
in
the
Federal
12
Government,
and
we'll
talk
about
that
a
lot
more
13
as
we
go
throughout
the
process.
14
I
work
better
this
way,
not
behind
a
15
desk,
so
I
can
get
to
know
you.
I'm
going
to
16
put
the
mike
down.
Everybody
gets
a
chance
to
17
share,
participate,
and
what
you
see
and
18
hopefully
get
over
the
next
two
days,
it
19
hopefully
will
be
an
opportunity
to
exchange
20
information.
21
Take
advantage
of
us.
We're
all
the
22
way
from
Washington.
I
don't
come
that
often.
23
We're
here.
We
have
representatives,
as
was
24
noted
earlier,
from
other
federal
agencies
you
25
need
to
take
advantage
of.
The
only
question
0012
1
that's
a
dumb
question
is
the
question
that
you
2
didn't
ask.
You
know
that
one
that
you
were
3
thinking
maybe
I
shouldn't?
You
should,
okay?
4
We're
here
to
find
out
what
your
needs
5
are;
to
find
out
more
about
what
it
is
that
you
6
do,
the
goods
and
services
that
you
bring,
and
7
hopefully
we've
brought
in
other
experts
who
can
8
help
you
channel
that
so
that
you
can
come
up
9
with
opportunities.
10
What
I
always
tell
businesses
is
money
11
is
green.
You
just
need
to
know
where
to
go
to
12
find
it.
So
we
come
today
and
tomorrow
to
tell
13
you
where
those
pockets
of
money
are
and
how
you
14
can
gain
access
to
them.
15
So
right
now,
everybody
don't
jump
up
16
all
at
one
time,
but
if
you
could
go
to
the
mike
17
and
tell
me
who
you
are,
the
type
of
business
18
that
you
have
and
then
we
will
come
back
after
19
we
do
that.
Everybody
gets
a
chance
to
speak.
20
Don't
give
me
a
long
dissertation,
just
21
two
seconds.
What
kind
of
business,
small,
22
woman­
owned,
8(
a),
what
do
you
do,
where
are
you
23
located,
and
then
we
can
network
some
more
after
24
we
get
that
done.
But
I'd
like
to
know
who
you
25
are.
So
would
you
please
help
me
in
finding
out
0013
1
more
about
you.
2
(
Introduction
of
audience
3
participants.)
4
MS.
BROWN:
Thank
you,
that
was
5
wonderful.
6
You
may
be
wondering,
why
did
she
do
7
that?
Well,
you
never
know
who
is
in
the
8
audience.
You
never
know
who
you're
sitting
9
next
to,
and
a
lot
of
times
I
do
that
as
an
ice
10
breaker.
Sometimes
it's
difficult
for
some
11
people
to
say
"
hi,
my
name
is
and
this
is
what
I
12
do",
but
you
have
a
chance
to
scan
the
room
to
13
find
out
who
is
here.
14
We
have
now
identified
a
lot
of
experts
15
in
the
field
from
various
government
agencies,
16
as
well
as
you
all
as
private
business
owners.
17
Now
the
next
thing
we
need
to
do
is
to
connect
18
even
more
to
find
out
how
we
can
possibly
work
19
together.
20
This
has
been
wonderful
for
me.
I
21
always
like
to
see
exactly
who
is
in
the
22
audience,
and
it
gives
me
a
feel
for
who
I'm
23
talking
to.
24
The
last
time
we
came,
we
did
not
have
25
as
many
people
certified
as
8(
a)
or
who
knew
0014
1
what
a
HUBZone
was,
and
so
I'm
seeing
that
we're
2
making
a
lot
of
progress
out
in
this
part
of
the
3
country.
At
least
you
all
are
finding
out
about
4
the
programs
and
taking
advantage
of
them.
And
5
with
the
people
here
from
GSA
and
the
Bureau
and
6
Energy
and
other
places,
it's
good
for
you
to
7
find
out
what
it
is
that
we
do.
8
Before
I
do
that,
let
me
introduce
the
9
other
person,
my
colleague
that
I'm
traveling
10
with.
As
was
mentioned
earlier,
we
have
been
on
11
the
road
now
since
October
doing
something
like
12
this
all
across
the
country.
We've
been
to
13
Temecula,
California;
we've
been
to
Syracuse,
14
New
York;
we've
been
down
to
Puerto
Rico;
we've
15
been
to
Albuquerque,
you
name
it.
16
We've
tried
to
do
extensive
outreach
to
17
people
outside
of
the
Beltway
in
Washington,
18
D.
C.,
to
find
about
what
it
is
that
we're
doing
19
at
EPA,
for
one,
and
to
talk
about
our
proposed
20
rules.
21
Tomorrow
afternoon
or
tomorrow
morning
22
we
will
talk
to
you
in
more
detail
about
doing
23
business
with
EPA
under
our
grants
program.
24
Most
people
don't
realize
or
understand
how
that
25
works,
and
so
we
bring
more
information.
0015
1
But
I
don't
travel
alone.
Kimberly
2
Patrick
is
my
staff
attorney,
and
she
has
helped
3
me,
and
she
is
the
point
of
contact
for
the
4
tribes
on
our
program,
so
you
need
to
find
out
5
who
she
is
and
get
in
contact
with
her,
and
6
particularly
with
travel
issues,
et
cetera.
7
She's
going
to
talk
and
be
with
me
the
8
next
two
days
to
talk
to
you
in
more
detail
9
about
our
proposed
rule,
and
I
will
be
talking
10
to
you
about
doing
business
directly
with
EPA
in
11
the
area
of
contracts.
12
With
that,
Kimberly,
is
there
anything
13
you
want
to
say?
14
MS.
PATRICK:
The
first
thing,
because
15
I'm
the
contact
person
with
the
tribes
dealing
16
with
our
new
rule
in
the
grant
programs
that
we
17
have
and
how
our
program
works
under
the
EPA
18
grant,
don't
be
put
off
because
I'm
an
attorney.
19
I
usually
don't
even
tell
people
what
I
do.
I'm
20
not
the
typical
attorney,
so
you
don't
have
to,
21
you
know,
be
at
arms
or
whatever.
22
I
actually
enjoy
the
part
of
my
job
23
when
I
am
able
to
give
information
and
actually
24
help.
That's
the
part
of
being
an
attorney
that
25
I
like,
so
please
make
sure
you
contact
me
once
0016
1
we're
done.
We
have
a
table
in
the
next
room
2
with
information
and
everything.
My
number
is
3
on
the
back
of
the
card
so
make
sure
you
look
4
back
there
and
please
stay
in
contact.
5
MS.
BROWN:
Thank
you.
6
Now
I
want
to
talk
to
you
a
little
bit
7
about
doing
business
with
EPA.
There
are
8
primarily
only
two
ways
to
do
business
with
EPA,
9
directly
or
indirectly.
Directly
is
through
10
contracts.
Our
contracts
budget
is
$
1.2
billion
11
annually.
Our
grant
budget
is
$
4.2
billion.
12
That
should
be
a
light
bulb
there,
13
because
more
and
more
of
our
dollars
have
14
shifted
from
contracts
to
grants.
And
a
lot
of
15
people
don't
understand
that
or
know.
16
How
many
of
you
all
may
be
grant
17
recipients
from
EPA?
Anybody
here?
I
see
one
18
hand.
Anybody
else?
Any
of
your
tribes
19
receiving
grant
money
from
EPA?
There's
ample
20
opportunity
there.
$
4.2
billion
annually
going
21
out
in
grants,
so
you
need
to
take
advantage
of
22
that.
23
We
don't
have
a
budget
yet,
but
I
can
24
talk
to
you
about
doing
business
with
EPA.
25
As
was
mentioned
earlier,
all
of
the
0017
1
agencies
are
required
to
have
a
forecast
of
2
procurement
opportunities.
I
can
tell
you
this,
3
not
just
with
EPA
but
with
any
other
federal
4
agency,
if
you're
not
hooked
up
to
the
worldwide
5
web,
if
you
don't
have
a
computer,
you
won't
be
6
able
to
do
business
with
us.
7
I
would
basically
say
you
can't
do
8
business
with
anybody
in
the
Federal
Government
9
if
you
don't
have
those
connections.
Everything
10
we
do
is
on
the
Internet.
Our
forecast,
I
don't
11
even
point
it
out
anymore,
is
on
the
website
and
12
is
updated
probably
every
two
to
three
weeks.
13
So
as
I
am
on
the
road,
if
I
want
to
14
point
it
out,
what
I
have
would
have
would
be
15
obsolete.
So
I
would
direct
you
to
our
website
16
at
www.
epa.
gov/
osdbu,
the
Office
of
Small
and
17
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization
and
from
18
there
you
get
a
change
to
click
into
our
19
forecast
of
procurement
opportunities.
20
You
also
go
to
\
oam,
the
Office
of
21
Acquisition
Management,
and
that
is
the
office
22
that
does
all
the
contracts
with
the
agency,
and
23
there
they
will
have
posted
the
forecast.
They
24
will
also
give
you
a
direct
link
to
fedbizopps,
25
which
is
where
everything
has
to
be
posted.
No
0018
1
more
commerce
business
daily.
2
Let
me
say
something
about
that
now,
3
because
one
of
the
things
that
we
are
4
experiencing
back
in
the
office
is
my
contracts
5
will
post
sources
sought
information
at
6
fedbizopps
telling
the
small
business
community,
7
contracting
community
what
it
is
that
we're
8
looking
for
and
requesting,
requiring
you
to
9
respond.
10
A
lot
of
you
have
marketing
11
information,
and
a
lot
of
people
send
that
in,
12
and
a
lot
of
times
my
programming
contract
13
people
are
telling
me,
Jeanette,
they
didn't
14
meet
the
test
because
your
marketing
information
15
didn't
go
into
specific
detail,
a
level
of
16
detail
that
we're
looking
for.
17
When
you
go
to
fedbizopps,
not
just
for
18
EPA
but
any
other
agency,
as
you
are
reading
19
that
information,
and
they
are
asking
for
20
information
on
what
your
capabilities
are,
you
21
need
to
take
the
time
and
give
us
that
22
information,
because
it's
difficult
for
me
as
23
the
advocate
in
the
agency
to
advocate
for
you
24
when
the
documentation
you
send
in
wasn't
25
substantial
enough.
0019
1
I
see
a
lot
of
hands
going
like
this
2
(
waving).
It's
hard
for
me
to
come
back
and,
3
say,
set
this
aside
for
small
business
when
all
4
they
can
show
me
is
what
you
send
in,
and
it
5
didn't
fit
the
bill.
You
didn't
respond
to
what
6
it
is
that
we
were
asking
for.
7
So
I
need
you
to
pay
attention
and
be
8
alert
to
what
it
is
that
we're
asking
for
as
9
it's
being
posted
and
then
respond
accordingly.
10
It
may
take
you
a
little
bit
more
time,
but
at
11
least
if
your
foot
is
in
the
door,
we
can
12
advocate
for
you
a
lot
stronger
rather
than
13
going
back
to
my
program
people
saying,
I
need
14
to
go
back
out
again
because
they
see
that
as
a
15
hindrance
to
the
process.
They
say
we've
16
already
gone
out,
and
they
want
response.
17
So,
for
one,
the
marketing
material
18
that
you
submit
to
the
agency,
that's
good,
19
provided
it's
done
­­
it's
professionally
done.
20
We're
seeing
an
increase
in
how
that
21
information
is
coming
in.
More
and
more
people
22
are
becoming
more
business
savvy,
and
that's
a
23
good
thing,
but
we
also
need
to
understand
24
that's
just
to
get
an
initial
response
from
the
25
federal
agencies
in
terms
of
inquiring
more
into
0020
1
what
it
is
your
capabilities
are.
That's
just
a
2
taste
of
who
you
are.
3
Again,
that's
your
first,
in
a
lot
of
4
instances,
presentation
into
the
agency.
That's
5
a
good
thing,
but
we
will
need
more
information,
6
so
you
need
to
be
mindful
of
that.
7
I'm
hearing
that
a
lot
of
you
are
8
already
8(
a)
certified,
and
that
process
may
9
have
taken
you
a
long
time
to
get
it.
In
some
10
instances,
we're
hearing
that
it's
a
lengthy
11
process;
others
it
may
not
be,
but
once
you
get
12
it,
you
have
to
market
yourself.
We
need
to
13
know
who
you
are.
You
need
to
knock
on
the
14
door.
You
need
to
tell
us
right
who
you
are.
15
There's
one
of
me
in
every
agency
in
16
the
Federal
Government,
and
our
goal
is
to
17
advocate
on
your
behalf
within
those
agencies
to
18
provide
opportunities
for
small
disadvantaged,
19
minority,
woman­
owned
businesses,
service
20
disabled.
21
I
heard
one
service
disabled
veteran
22
owned
business?
Just
veterans.
Any
service
23
disabled
veteran
owned
businesses?
24
You,
sir?
No,
okay.
25
Right
before
Christmas,
new
legislation
0021
1
was
passed
where
now
service
disabled
veterans
2
pretty
much
are
on
equal
standing
with
HUBZones,
3
brand
new.
So,
if
you
know
any
service
disabled
4
veterans,
the
key
is
not
veteran,
it's
got
to
be
5
service
disabled,
there
are
opportunities
there.
6
The
President
just
signed
off
on
it.
7
We're
waiting
for
that
to
be
codified
in
the
8
FAR.
That's
been
a
long
time
in
coming.
Now
we
9
can
get
to
them
a
lot
easier
if
you
enter
into
10
sole­
source
like
you
do
with
8(
a)
with
the
11
HUBZone
piece,
that
kind
of
thing.
Before,
we
12
couldn't
do
that,
so
that's
brand
new.
That
13
just
happened
right
before
Christmas.
14
And
so
if
you
are
familiar
with
or
know
15
of
anybody
that
has
that
status,
you
need
to
16
hook
up
with
them.
17
The
other
thing
you
need
to
realize
is
18
it's
up
to
you
to
see
yourself.
What
has
19
happened
with
us
in
the
Federal
Government,
I
20
get
a
chance
to
check
off
every
box
that
I
can.
21
If
you're
8(
a),
I
can
check
it
off;
if
you're
22
woman­
owned,
I
can
check
it
off.
If
you're
23
HUBZone,
I
check
that
box
too.
If
you're
24
service
disabled,
I
can
check
that
box
too.
25
So
the
more
of
those
pieces
that
you
0022
1
bring
to
us,
the
better
off
it
is
because
we
2
have
goals
that
we
have
to
meet.
We
enter
into
3
negotiations
with
SBA
every
two
years
now.
We
4
have
national
goals
that
we
have
to
meet,
every
5
agency.
6
A
score
card
comes
out
in
the
7
summertime,
around
May
or
June,
that
will
rate
8
all
of
the
federal
agencies
in
terms
of
how
we
9
stack
up
in
doing
business
with
the
private
10
sector
and
small
business.
11
I
can
assure
you
that
a
lot
of
12
attention
is
given
to
this
score
card,
and
many
13
of
us,
including
EPA,
are
not
meeting
their
14
goals
in
the
area
of
HUBZone,
service
disabled
15
veteran,
and
we
have
yet
to
meet
our
woman­
owned
16
business
goals.
We're
inching
closer
and
closer
17
to
it.
18
The
national
goal
for
woman­
owned
19
business
is
5%.
We're
at
3.5,
3.9%,
the
highest
20
we've
ever
been,
but
we
haven't
met
the
5%
goal.
21
Those
are
the
kinds
of
buzz
words
that
we
need
22
to
hear
in
the
agencies.
23
When
you're
marketing
to
these
federal
24
agencies,
make
sure
you
tell
them
what
your
25
status
is.
It's
nothing
to
hide.
I
need
to
0023
1
know,
because
that
shows
me
and
tells
me
what
I
2
can
do
in
order
to
contract
with
you.
3
If
you're
8(
a),
and
you're
not
tribally
4
owned,
I
can
contract
with
you
directly
up
to
5
three
million
without
competing
it.
There
is
no
6
dollar
limit
for
the
tribally­
owned
8(
a).
A
lot
7
of
people
don't
realize
that.
There's
no
dollar
8
limit.
9
When
I
say
"
I",
not
me
directly;
I'm
10
not
a
Contracting
Officer
anymore.
I
don't
do
11
that
anymore.
But
my
agency
and
other
federal
12
agencies
can
enter
into
a
contract
with
you
13
directly,
no
competition,
provided
you
have
the
14
goods
and
services
that
we
need,
and
the
money
15
is
there.
Those
are
the
kinds
of
things
you
16
need
to
be
mindful
of.
17
Again,
go
into
those
forecasts
of
18
procurement
opportunities.
All
amounts
are
on
19
the
website,
and
it
will
tell
you
an
estimate
20
about
how
much
we
think
it's
going
to
cost.
21
It
gives
you
a
short
synopsis
of
what
22
the
requirement
is.
It
will
tell
you
when
we
23
anticipate
making
an
award.
It
will
also
tell
24
you
which
way
we
are
anticipating
going,
whether
25
it's
going
to
be
full
and
open,
8(
a),
HUBZone,
0024
1
small
business
set­
aside.
2
When
you
see
a
requirement
that
says
3
full
and
open,
and
you
think
you
can
do
it,
4
don't
let
that
stop
you.
The
rule
of
two
still
5
applies
for
small
business.
If
we
can
get
two
6
small
businesses
that
can
do
that,
we
can
set
it
7
aside
totally
for
small
business.
8
So
sometimes
it
may
say,
who
is
your
9
competitor?
It's
good
for
you
to
know
that
10
because
that
may
be
the
other
small
business.
11
Then
I
can
set
it
aside
for
small
business,
and
12
that
limits
who
you
have
to
compete
with
if
we
13
set
it
aside
totally
for
small
business
rather
14
than
full
and
open,
and
then
everybody,
big
guys
15
and
midsize
guys,
as
well
as
the
small
guys,
are
16
all
going
out
for
that
same
piece
of
pie.
17
So
when
you
see
the
procurement
18
forecast,
and
it
identifies
the
anticipated
19
method
of
procurement,
which
way
we're
going
to
20
go,
don't
let
that
stop
you.
21
Again,
I
would
say
­­
and
I
know
as
22
small
business
owners
this
may
be
a
lot
for
you,
23
because
of
lot
of
you
all
are
small,
and
you're
24
out
doing
the
business,
but
you
also
have
to
do
25
this
piece.
0025
1
You
may
need
to
hire
people
to
stay
on
2
the
web
to
look
for
this
stuff
because
once
it
3
closes,
once
the
response
time
closes,
it's
4
difficult
for
us,
if
not
impossible,
to
get
you
5
into
the
line,
so
you've
got
to
play
close
6
attention
to
the
dates.
That
means
reading
this
7
information.
And
information
is
going
up
daily
8
all
over
the
place.
9
If
you
are
small
disadvantaged
10
business,
and
you
have
to
be
small
disadvantaged
11
business
through
the
Department
of
Commerce
out
12
of
MBDA,
through
that
Phoenix
database,
they
13
will
send
you
­­
after
you've
gone
in
and
14
registered
with
them,
doesn't
cost
you
anything,
15
you've
just
got
to
sign
up
with
them,
they
will
16
send
you
electronically
solicitations
that
match
17
your
capabilities
which
limits
the
amount
of
18
time
that
you
have
to
stay
on
the
Internet.
19
They
will
tell
you
what's
coming
up,
20
what
matches
your
current
capabilities
and
then
21
it's
up
to
you
to
respond.
22
Any
questions
before
I
go
any
further?
23
Nobody?
24
Yes,
sir?
25
AUDIENCE:
I
missed
that
on
Phoenix,
0026
1
what
was
that?
2
MS.
BROWN:
The
Phoenix
datebase?
3
It's
from
MBDA
out
of
the
Department
of
4
Commerce.
The
criteria
there
is
you
have
to
be
5
small
minority
business.
6
If
you're
small
minority
business,
you
7
can
register
online
with
them,
and
then
based
on
8
what
you
have
told
them
out
of
your
core
9
competencies
as
the
requirements
comes
through,
10
they
have
it
hooked
up
such
that
the
11
solicitations,
they'll
send
you
an
e­
mail,
12
whichever
way
you
prefer,
and
send
you
13
information
that
matches
your
core
capabilities.
14
AUDIENCE:
Do
you
have
the
address
for
15
that
website?
16
MS.
BROWN:
I'll
get
it
for
you.
I
17
don't
have
that
now.
I
think
it's
www.
mbda.
gov.
18
Everything
is
pretty
much
that
way,
but
we'll
19
get
that
for
you
before
the
next
two
days
are
20
out.
That's
free
information.
Doesn't
cost
you
21
anything.
22
How
many
of
you
are
signed
up
with
23
PRO­
Net
or
CCR?
24
(
Show
of
hands.)
25
MS.
BROWN:
That's
critical,
because
0027
1
all
of
us
have
to
go
to
CCR
now,
and
you
need
to
2
make
sure
­­
and
not
only
that,
but
make
sure
3
your
information
is
up
to
date.
4
If
you
haven't
gone
in
and
updated
your
5
information
over
the
last
6
to
18
months,
you're
6
doing
yourself
a
disservice.
And
18
months
is
7
stretching
it
because
if
you
take
on
more,
and
8
you
do
more,
you
need
to
go
in
and
update
that
9
information.
10
What
we
do
in
the
Federal
Government,
11
and
EPA
in
particular,
we
will
do
a
run
for
our
12
program
people
when
they
come,
and
that
13
information
is
what
we
use
to
pass
along
inside
14
the
agency
of
who
is
out
there.
So,
if
your
15
information
is
not
up
to
date,
you're
missing
16
out.
So
you
really
need
to
make
that
17
information
current.
18
AUDIENCE:
What
is
considered
small
19
business?
For
the
amount
of
money
you
can
make
20
each
year,
what's
small?
21
MS.
BROWN:
We
go
by
the
SBA
size
22
standards
in
terms
of
what
determines
a
business
23
small.
They
have
a
net
worth
value
for
SDB
of
24
$
750,000.
In
order
to
be
considered
a
small
25
business,
to
get
that
identification
as
small,
0028
1
first
you
have
to
have
a
net
worth
less
than
2
$
750,000.
That's
a
8(
a).
3
AUDIENCE:
I
think
it
determines
on
the
4
NAICS
codes.
5
MS.
BROWN:
Well,
right.
The
size
6
standards
are
­­
we
look
at
the
size
standards
7
to
determine
whether
or
not
you're
small,
and
8
that's
based
on
gross
revenue
or
number
of
9
employees,
and
it
varies
from
commodity
to
10
commodity.
So,
depending
on
what
code
you
have
11
identified
determines
whether
or
not
you're
12
small.
13
You
can
be
small
in
some
codes.
In
14
other
codes,
you
may
not
be
because
sometimes
15
you
outgrow
it.
And
that's
determined
solely
by
16
SBA,
and
that's
what
the
rest
of
us
go
by.
17
MS.
JEPSON:
Don't
worry
too
much
about
18
the
small
business.
The
comparison,
the
way
the
19
SBA
set
up
the
business
size
standards
were
20
compared
to
very
large
companies
like
Boeing
and
21
things
like
that.
So
if
you're
in
a
22
manufacturing
company,
and
you
have,
say,
500
23
employees,
then
maybe
you
might
be
large.
24
But
that's
what
we're
talking
about.
25
We're
talking
about
maybe,
average
gross
sales
0029
1
of
$
17
million
for
like
a
construction
company.
2
I'm
sure
that
Robert
Much,
who
is
going
3
to
be
the
SBA
representative,
will
go
through
4
some
of
that
for
you.
But
generally
don't
worry
5
about
that.
You
will
be
a
small
business.
6
MS.
BROWN:
Most
businesses.
We've
7
seen
some
of
the
Alaskan
companies
far
outgrow
8
those
capabilities.
9
MS.
JEPSON:
Yes,
but
they're
quite
10
large.
11
MS.
BROWN:
SBA
can
talk
more
about
12
that.
I
was
thinking
about
something
else,
sir,
13
so
please
disregard
my
initial
response.
14
Again,
we
go
back
to
the
size
standard
15
for
that
commodity,
and
that's
determined
by
16
SBA.
17
Any
other
questions
or
comments
yet?
18
(
No
response.)
19
At
EPA,
we
have
10
Regional
Offices,
20
and
this
is
in
the
material
stuff
we
have
over
21
at
the
table
so
you
can
get
that,
and
it's
also
22
on
the
website.
23
We
have
10
Regional
Offices
around
the
24
country,
and
I
have
MBE/
WBE
coordinators
who
are
25
available
to
work
with
you,
to
identify
0030
1
opportunities
within
the
agency
on
doing
2
business
with
EPA.
3
In
this
region,
we
are
in
Region
8,
and
4
the
representative
is
Maurice
Valasquez,
and
we
5
have
his
information
on
a
piece
of
paper
here
6
and
all
the
other
MBE/
WBE
coordinators
around
7
the
country.
You
can
be
in
contact
with
him
8
directly,
but
it's
also
good
that
you
send
your
9
stuff
into
headquarters
as
well.
10
We
have
a
database.
One
of
our
staff
11
members
just
retired
January
2nd.
Myrna
Mooney
12
retired,
so
she's
no
longer
with
us,
but
she
13
brought
to
us
when
she
came
from
BIA
a
database
14
of
all
of
the
tribally­
owned
businesses
that
she
15
had
identified.
16
We've
since
merged
that
information
17
with
information
that
we've
got
from
the
18
national
setup
and
other
places,
so
we
brought
19
it
up
to
expand
our
database
of
small
businesses
20
to
be
inclusive
of
tribally­
owned
companies
as
21
well.
22
If
you
have
not
sent
information
into
23
EPA,
you
need
to
do
that
so
that
we
have
that
as
24
well.
We
will
go
to
our
database
as
well
as
to
25
CCR
and
also
Phoenix
database.
0031
1
We
are
in
contact
with
MBDA
and
my
2
other
counterparts
as
we're
looking
for
3
opportunities
for
small
disadvantaged
4
businesses.
So,
it's
important
that
you
find
5
out
from
each
agency
where
they're
going
for
6
their
information
to
make
sure
your
information
7
is
current,
make
sure
they
have
that.
8
A
lot
of
times
people
will
come
in
and
9
need
something
immediately,
so
I
have
capability
10
statements
on
file
in
the
office,
and
we
can
11
pass
that
information
on
very
quickly,
or
we
go
12
directly
to
the
database
to
get
additional
13
information.
14
As
I
said,
we
have
10
regions
around
15
the
country
and
an
MBE/
WBE
coordinator
at
each
16
one
of
those
regions
to
work
with
you.
17
We
have
three
major
buying
facilities
18
in
EPA.
One
is
out
of
headquarters
in
19
Washington,
D.
C.,
which
is
where
I'm
located.
20
We
also
have
one
in
research,
Triangle
Park,
21
North
Carolina,
and
then
we
also
have
another
22
one
in
Cincinnati,
Ohio.
Those
are
primarily
23
the
places
where
we
write
contracts,
mega
24
contracts,
the
big
contracts.
25
I
will
say,
however,
each
of
the
10
0032
1
regions
have
a
procurement
shop,
and
they
have
a
2
limited
procurement
authority,
and
they
write
3
contracts
as
well.
4
How
many
of
you
all
accept
bank
cards,
5
purchase
cards?
Everybody's
hand
in
here
should
6
have
gone
up.
Within
EPA,
we
have
probably
7
about
18,000
employees,
and
I
would
say
close
to
8
9,000
of
them
have
bank
cards
where
they
can
go
9
out
and
buy
things
on
the
spot.
Just
like
that
10
is
the
scenario
in
EPA,
that's
the
scenario
in
a
11
lot
of
the
other
agencies.
12
I'm
not
sure
anymore
how
much
it
costs
13
to
buy
that
little
gray
box.
It
used
to
be
14
about
$
800.
But
that's
worth
the
investment
15
because
people
from
each
one
of
these
agencies
16
can
come
out
and
buy
things
on
the
spot.
That's
17
a
business
decision,
of
course,
that
you
have
to
18
make.
19
One
of
the
things
you
need
to
do,
and
20
as
you
do
that,
as
you
look
at
that,
one
of
the
21
things
that
we
ask
as
we're
going
through
the
22
process
to
find
out
what
your
capabilities
are,
23
is
if
you
have
had
previous
experience
with
the
24
government,
and
in
your
marketing
materials,
in
25
your
capability
statements,
you
know
how
to
show
0033
1
who
your
clientele
are.
2
Well,
if
you
used
a
bank
card
with
EPA,
3
I'm
now
your
customer.
You
can
now
identify
me
4
as
one
of
the
federal
agencies
that
you're
doing
5
business
with
and
put
that
on
your
capability
6
statement.
We
don't
say
how
much
have
you
7
spent;
we
say
who
are
your
clients,
who
are
you
8
doing
business
with?
So
that's
another
9
marketing
tool
that
you
can
use.
10
The
federal
procurement
process
for
11
small
purchases
is
anything
under
$
100,000.
12
That,
for
a
small
business,
can
be
a
lot,
and
it
13
adds
up
over
time.
14
I'm
not
saying
that
you
have
to
start
15
small.
Some
of
you
have
the
capability
and
16
experience
to
go
after
big
mega
dollar
17
contracts,
but
some
of
you
may
want
to
start
18
getting
one
or
two
purchase
orders.
19
Again,
all
of
that's
done
in
EPA
20
electronically.
You
may
not
ever
see
a
person
21
or
talk
to
them
over
the
phone.
We
hold
our
22
process
electronically.
Comments
come
in;
we
23
respond
back
to
you.
24
You
submit
your
proposal
­­
a
lot
of
25
times
now
they
do
video
proposals.
People
don't
0034
1
even
come
to
do
face­
to­
face
anymore.
We
take
a
2
look
at
those,
make
a
decision,
and
we
do
all
of
3
that
electronically,
and
then
you
get
paid
4
electronically.
5
So,
the
process
of
automation
is
here
6
to
stay,
and
you
need
to
have
that
capability
in
7
order
to
do
business
with
the
Federal
8
Government.
9
Simplified
acquisitions
is
a
good
place
10
to
start,
especially
if
you're
first
starting
11
out
doing
business
with
the
Federal
Government.
12
Build
on
that
because
one
of
the
other
things
we
13
look
at
is
past
performance.
14
One
of
the
other
things
that
the
15
agencies
internally
will
ask
was
what
was
your
16
performance.
You
need
to
keep
that
in
mind
17
regardless
of
the
size
of
your
contract,
because
18
that
will
determine,
or
may
be
a
factor
in
what
19
other
contracts
you
are
able
to
get
as
a
result
20
of
your
performance
on
that
first
requirement.
21
Many
of
us
feed
into
a
national
system
that
22
identifies
past
performance
for
our
contractors.
23
So
you
know
that
there
are
three
major
24
buying
facilities
at
EPA,
and
then
you
know
that
25
within
the
regions,
they
have
the
capability
to
0035
1
enter
into
contracts
on
a
limited
dollar
value.
2
Each
of
the
regions
have
their
own
3
website.
For
Region
8
they
have
a
website.
You
4
can
go
into
there
to
find
out
locally
what
5
they're
doing.
6
You
need
to
meet
Maurice
Valasquez
as
7
he
is
the
coordinator
for
Region
8
so
that
he
8
knows
who
you
are
and
what
opportunities
are
9
coming
up
in
his
area.
10
AUDIENCE:
What
region
is
Idaho
in?
11
MS.
BROWN:
Idaho
is
in
Region
8
­­
12
I'm
sorry,
Region
10.
Region
10.
Colorado
is
13
Region
8.
14
MS.
PATRICK:
Region
10
is
going
to
be
15
Alaska,
Idaho,
Washington
State,
Oregon.
16
Region
9
is
going
to
be
California,
17
Arizona,
Nevada
and
the
territories
in
the
South
18
Pacific,
Hawaii
and
Guam
and
all
that
area.
19
Region
8
is
Denver,
Wyoming,
North
20
Dakota,
South
Dakota,
and
Montana.
21
MS.
BROWN:
And
somebody's
here
from
22
Kansas
City.
23
MS.
PATRICK:
Oh,
okay,
Region
7.
24
MS.
BROWN:
And
Region
7
is?
25
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay,
now,
you're
pushing
0036
1
me.
2
(
General
laughter.)
3
MS.
PATRICK:
Region
7
is
Missouri,
4
Minnesota,
Iowa,
Kansas,
and
I
think
that's
it.
5
MS.
BROWN:
Nebraska.
6
MS.
PATRICK:
And
Nebraska.
7
MS.
BROWN:
We
have
a
sheet
over
there,
8
and
I
need
to
cheat
and
see
the
sheet
because
I
9
can't
remember
all
of
them.
But
we
do
have
10
coordinators
in
all
of
the
regions
and
they
are
11
there
to
assist
you.
12
For
Region
8,
they
are
also
doing
the
13
procurements
for
Region
10.
Their
contracts
are
14
being
done
out
of
Region
8.
And
Seattle,
15
they're
no
longer
doing
the
contracts,
so
the
16
contracts
are
coming
down
to
Region
7.
17
Can
I
go
back
to
your
capability
18
statements
for
a
minute?
A
lot
of
times
that's
19
your
first
look
into
the
agency,
and
that's
our
20
first
look
at
you,
so
you
need
to
make
sure
that
21
information
is
current
and
up
to
date
and
22
professionally
done,
no
typos,
those
kinds
of
23
things.
You'd
be
surprised
what
we
get.
24
Then
make
sure
that
it
adequately
25
represents
you
in
terms
of
what
you
wanted
to
0037
1
say.
And
you
may
have
to
do
more
than
one
2
package,
depending
on
who
you're
marketing
to,
3
because
what
we
buy
at
EPA
might
not
necessarily
4
be
what
they
buy
at
the
Bureau.
5
Energy,
a
lot
of
time
a
lot
of
what
we
6
do
may
be
similar,
but
you
need
to
do
your
7
homework
in
terms
of
who
you
are
marketing
to.
8
As
you're
looking
to
do
business
with
9
the
Federal
Government,
the
key
to
all
of
this
10
is
doing
your
homework,
know
as
many
of
us
don't
11
have
budgets
yet,
some
will.
You
need
to
know
12
where
the
monies
have
been
appropriated.
13
All
of
that
can
be
easily
gathered
14
through
the
Internet
and
other
processes.
15
Because
a
lot
of
times
people
come
to
market
us
16
in
areas
that
we
don't
have
any
means
of
buying
17
anything
in,
and
that's
a
waste
of
your
time
and
18
ours.
19
But
if
you
do
your
homework,
you'll
20
know
where
the
monies
have
been
appropriated,
21
where
we
can
spend,
and
then
go
through
that
22
forecast
to
take
a
look
at
where.
23
A
lot
of
times
people
come
in
to
me
and
24
say,
I
want
a
contract,
and
I
look
at
them
and
25
say
I
can't
help
you.
I
don't
write
contracts.
0038
1
I
need
you
to
know
what
my
mission
is.
2
I
need
you
to
tell
me
what
it
is
that
3
you
have
and
how
you
can
help
me
accomplish
my
4
mission.
That
means
doing
your
homework
to
know
5
that
we
go
around
and
clean
up
Superfund
sites
6
all
over
the
country,
so
we
do
things
in
soil
7
remediation,
testing,
those
kinds
of
things.
8
But
you
need
to
do
your
homework
to
know
that.
9
A
lot
of
people
are
knocking
at
our
10
doors,
and
so
the
people
that
we're
going
to
be
11
interested
in
are
the
ones
that
have
best
done
12
that
homework
and
know
what
it
is
that
we
do.
13
When
they
walk
in,
they're
not
saying
14
give
me
a
contract.
They're
saying
this
is
a
15
service
that
I
provide.
This
is
what
I
do,
and
16
here
is
how
I
can
help
you,
EPA,
do
your
job
and
17
meet
your
mission.
I've
cleaned
up
sites
18
locally
in
my
state,
or
I've
done
this,
or
I've
19
done
that,
and
this
is
how
I
can
help
you
get
20
your
job
done.
21
Back
in
the
day
­­
and
I
think
my
22
resume
said
I've
been
doing
this
now
for
23
23
years.
It's
now
almost
26
years.
24
When
I
was
a
Contracting
Officer,
25
people
would
come
in
and
say,
I
want
a
contract,
0039
1
and
I
tried
to
work
with
them
to
do
that
as
best
2
I
can,
but
we
need
a
little
more
business
savvy
3
now,
and
you
need
to
do
your
homework.
4
I
don't
think
that
I'm
just
saying
this
5
is
unique
to
EPA.
I'm
seeing
some
of
the
other
6
government
representatives
going,
yeah.
Make
7
sure
you
know
where
we're
going
to
spend
our
8
money,
and
then
you
come
in
and
tell
us
how
you
9
can
help
us
to
get
our
mission
accomplished,
10
because
that's
sorting
out,
and
I
hate
to
say
11
that,
but
the
men
from
the
boys.
12
While
we
have
other
programs
that
may
13
be
in
place,
a
lot
of
this
stuff
we
do
is
14
sophisticated
work.
So
I
need
somebody
coming
15
in
the
door
confident
of
what
it
is
that
they're
16
doing
and
showing
us
how
you
can
help
me
meet
17
our
mission.
That's
what
I
have
to
sell
to
the
18
Contracting
Officer,
and
that's
what
I
have
to
19
sell
to
the
program
office.
20
And
I
can
tell
you,
past
performance,
21
and
I've
talked
about
this
before,
let
one
of
my
22
small
businesses
have
a
problem
and
we
have
to
23
terminate,
and
I
will
hear
that
for
the
next
20
24
years.
I
don't
care
if
we've
awarded
major
25
contracts
to
a
lot
of
other
small
businesses,
0040
1
and
they
have
done
well,
what
I
will
constantly
2
hear
is
the
one
that
screwed
up.
3
So,
as
you're
walking
in
that
door,
4
you've
got
a
lot
of
other
businesses
walking
on
5
your
shoulders,
and
you
really
need
to
realize
6
that
and
help
us
to
help
you.
7
One
of
the
things
you'll
find
in
EPA,
8
and
I
know
it's
not
just
unique
to
us,
but
once
9
you
get
in,
you
usually
do
pretty
good
because
10
that
information
is
spread
and
passed
along
to
11
other
people
in
the
agency,
I've
got
a
good
12
business
over
here,
and
this
is
what
they
did
13
for
us.
14
Another
Program
Office
wants
to
know
15
who
did
you
use,
and
then
they
build
on
that,
16
and
that's
how
you
start
your
track
record.
17
So
there's
a
lot
riding
on
that
initial
18
contract,
the
performance
of
that
contract
and
19
what
it
is
that
you
do.
And
again,
the
key
to
20
all
of
this
is
doing
your
homework,
being
21
confident
in
what
it
is
that
you
can
do.
22
The
other
thing
that
I
would
say
is,
23
and
these
are
good
business
decisions
that
you
24
as
business
people
have
to
make,
but
watch
how
25
you're
growing.
Be
careful
about
what
it
is
0041
1
that
you're
taking
on
because
all
too
often
we
2
see
a
lot
of
businesses
just
going
after
the
3
contracts,
and
they're
good,
and
they
get
them,
4
but
after
a
while,
it's
hard
to
juggle,
and
5
sometimes
they're
robbing
Peter
to
pay
Paul.
6
We
had
this
happen
two
years
ago.
This
7
contractor
was
a
good
8(
a)
firm,
had
an
8
excellent
reputation,
but
they
took
on
too
9
much.
And
it
impacted
Navy;
it
impacted
Army;
10
it
impacted
EPA,
and
they
went
under,
and
then
11
we
had
to
scramble,
work
with
SBA
and
some
other
12
folks
to
try
to
get
somebody
else
in.
13
My
program
people
were
very
reluctant
14
to
go
with
another
8(
a)
contractor
after
that
15
because
they
had
put
all
of
their
faith
in
the
16
competence
of
this
firm,
and
they
were
growing
17
and
doing
well,
but
they
just
took
on
a
little
18
bit
too
much.
19
So
especially
for
those
that
are
in
the
20
8(
a)
Program,
and
you
have
your
competitive
21
business
mix,
right?
You
all
need
to
really
pay
22
attention
to
how
you're
growing.
I'm
all
for
23
growth,
but
you
need
to
take
a
look
at
how
you
24
spread
that
across
these
contracts,
and
what
25
you're
able
to
do
and
not
to
do.
0042
1
Sometimes
I
think
it's
okay
to
say
I
2
can't
go
after
this
one
this
time
because
I've
3
just
got
too
much
on
my
plate,
and
that's,
to
4
me,
good
business
sense.
5
After
you
get
into
EPA,
and
you
see
6
that
we
have
10
regions
around
the
country,
7
three
major
buying
facilities,
and
then
also
8
within
the
regions
they
have
contracting
9
opportunities,
you
will
find
that
our
program
10
people
play
an
important
part
of
what
we
do.
11
And
the
key
to
all
of
this
for
us
is
12
selling
you
to
them.
A
lot
of
times
they
will
13
talk
to
you
directly
about
what
your
14
capabilities
are.
I
would
advise
you
that
if
15
you're
in
the
agency,
and
I
would
dare
to
say
if
16
you're
in
any
agency,
and
you're
talking
to
17
program
people,
and
you're
talking
to
contract
18
specialists,
please
give
your
small
business
19
office
a
heads­
up
that
you're
in,
and
you're
20
talking
to
them
so
that
we
know
what
it
is
21
that's
going
on.
22
A
lot
of
times
in
these
agencies,
and
23
EPA
in
particular,
a
lot
of
people
talk
24
procurement,
but
they
don't
really
understand
25
it.
Some
of
these
businesses,
you
go
down
this
0043
1
road,
and
you
think
you
have
a
contract,
only
to
2
find
out
after
all
of
these
discussions
and
3
presentations,
it
didn't
happen.
4
A
lot
of
times
the
Small
Business
5
Office,
someone
over
here
doesn't
have
a
clue
of
6
who's
in,
who's
talking
to
you.
We
try
to
sit
7
in
on
these
sessions
to
make
sure
we
understand
8
what's
being
discussed,
what's
on
the
table,
9
that
we're
being
consistent
in
what
we're
saying
10
to
other
contractors,
et
cetera,
so
that
we
11
know,
so
we
can
work
with
you.
12
So
we
are
your
advocate,
and
like
I
13
said,
there's
one
of
me
in
every
agency.
You
14
need
to
make
sure
we
know
who
you
are.
15
A
lot
of
times
firms
don't
come
into
me
16
until
they
are
about
to
lose
a
contract.
It's
17
not
too
late,
but
it
would
have
been
good
to
18
know
early
on
so
that
we
could
advocate
for
you
19
earlier
and
also
to
make
sure
that
our
20
colleagues
within
the
agency
understand
clearly
21
what
the
process
is,
what
they
can
and
can't
do.
22
Under
the
8(
a)
Program,
they're
not
23
supposed
to
be
evaluating
you
technically
with
a
24
score
card
when
you
go
in
and
give
those
25
presentations,
especially
for
this
work
under
0044
1
$
3
million.
A
lot
of
times
they
do
that.
Oh,
2
we
didn't
know.
3
Part
of
that
is
a
disconnect
between
4
the
FAR
and
13
CFR,
which
are
the
regulations
5
for
SBA
under
the
Federal
Code
of
Regulations.
6
You
need
to
know
what
they
say
because
there's
a
7
big
disconnect.
8
I
didn't
realize
that
when
I
was
a
9
Contracting
Officer
until
I
went
to
work
for
10
SBA,
and
there's
a
lot
more
leeway
and
a
lot
11
more
meat
in
the
13
CFR
that's
not
in
the
12
Federal
Acquisition
Regulations.
13
So,
if
you
don't
have
that
information,
14
you
need
to
go
online
and
read
that
so
you
know
15
what
your
rights
are
so
you
know
what
the
16
Contracting
Officer
and
the
Program
Office
can
17
and
can't
do.
18
I
was
in
that
life
as
a
Contracting
19
Officer
before,
and
I
went
by
the
FAR.
I
didn't
20
know
what
13
CFR
said.
My
attorneys
used
that.
21
I
just
saw
those
big
books.
I
didn't
use
them
22
that
much.
And
so
when
I
went
over
to
the
other
23
side
to
work
for
SBA,
I
was
like,
wow.
A
lot
of
24
people
don't
have
that.
25
But
you
need
to
know
that,
and
you
need
0045
1
to
be
armed
with
that
information
so
that
you
2
know
what
they
can
and
can't
do.
I
think
they
3
mean
well,
but
there's
a
big
difference.
4
As
the
policies
are
changing
the
route,
5
you
need
to
stay
abreast
of
what
those
changes
6
are.
You
need
to
be
armed
with
enough
7
information,
as
much
information
as
possible,
so
8
that
you
will
be
equipped
going
into
the
door
to
9
know
what
you
can
and
can't
do.
10
And
there's
a
nice
way
to
say
no,
I
11
think
you
might
need
to
go
to
13
CFR,
it
says
12
this.
That
will
be
a
wake­
up
call
for
them,
and
13
then
they'll
go
and
check
it.
But
a
lot
of
them
14
may
not
know
that.
And
I
can
tell
you
when
I
15
was
a
Contracting
Officer,
I
didn't
know.
16
Do
you
all
use
13
CFR?
17
(
Audience
commenting.)
18
MS.
BROWN:
See,
it
hasn't
changed
that
19
much.
20
And
we
are
beginning
to
come
together.
21
It's
my
hope,
and
I've
said
this
to
SBA
more
22
than
once,
they
need
to
do
a
little
bit
more
to
23
bring
a
merge,
a
lot
more
of
what's
in
13
CFR
24
into
the
FAR,
and
that
will
make
all
of
our
25
lives
a
lot
easier.
0046
1
But
until
that's
done,
you
really
need
2
to
be
armed
and
equipped
with
enough
information
3
so
that
you
know
where
to
go
and
what
you
can
4
and
can't
do.
5
AUDIENCE:
Where
do
you
find
that
CFR?
6
MS.
BROWN:
Where
do
you
find
the
13
7
CFR?
I
think
it's
online.
It's
the
Code
of
8
Federal
Regulations.
It's
around
100,
124,
all
9
up
in
there,
it
tells
you
how
to
terminate.
10
One
of
the
other
things,
once
a
11
requirement
is
in
the
8(
a)
Program,
and
SBA
is
12
going
to
probably
talk
about
this
a
lot
more,
13
but
once
a
requirement
is
in
the
8(
a)
Program,
14
it
should
be
difficult
to
get
that
out.
You
15
cannot
automatically
pull
that
out
of
the
16
program.
17
So
just
because
a
contractor
graduates,
18
and
I'm
talking
about
EPA
now,
I'm
not
talking
19
about
any
other
agency,
we
like
to
follow
that
20
contractor
because
they
had
a
good
track
record
21
so
they
graduated
out
of
the
program.
22
They
may
now
have
a
GSA
schedule,
and
I
23
might
want
to
follow
them
as
a
Program
Office
24
off
that
GSA
schedule.
On
GSA
schedule,
they
25
may
not
have
been
an
8(
a)
contractor.
They
may
0047
1
have
done
that
under
their
competitive
business
2
mix,
and
they
wanted
to
do
that
on
the
open
3
market.
4
So,
as
the
Program
Office,
I
want
to
5
follow
them
because
I
know
what
their
track
6
record
is.
But
if
I
go
use
that
GSA
schedule,
7
I'm
just
taking
them
out
of
the
8(
a)
Program,
8
SBA
would
have
a
fit.
You
can't
do
that,
but
we
9
do.
10
I'm
just
telling
you
how
it
works
in
11
EPA.
I'm
not
talking
about
any
other
agency.
12
The
Program
Offices
don't
always
realize
that,
13
or
they
want
to
follow
their
success
story.
14
My
job
as
the
advocate
for
small
15
business
is
to
ensure
that
stays
in
that
16
portfolio
so
that
other
emerging
businesses,
17
such
as
many
of
you,
will
have
that
opportunity
18
for
that
effort.
19
Can
we
take
a
short
break?
It's
about
20
break
time
anyway.
Let's
break
until
quarter
to
21
11.
22
(
Whereupon,
a
short
recess
was
taken.)
23
MS.
BROWN:
Welcome
back.
24
How
many
of
you
all
got
three
cards?
25
(
Show
of
hands.)
0048
1
MS.
BROWN:
Everybody's
hands
should
2
have
gone
up.
I've
got
more
than
three,
and
I'm
3
going
to
get
some
more
I'm
sure.
4
But
whenever
you
leave
the
office,
make
5
sure
you
are
packed
with
your
cards.
I
went
6
back
up
to
my
room
and
got
some
more
because
you
7
never
know
when
that
opportunity
is
going
to
8
come.
9
A
couple
of
things
that
I
didn't
talk
10
about,
EPA
has
a
mentor­
protege
program.
It's
a
11
little
bit
different
from
DOD.
We
don't
have
12
money
associated
with
ours.
We
were
hoping,
as
13
with
all
of
the
other
non­
DOD
agencies,
that
14
some
kind
of
legislation
would
have
been
15
approved
so
that
they
would
give
money
towards
16
all
of
the
programs,
not
just
DOD.
17
But
what
we
do
is
we
work
and
encourage
18
our
large
businesses
to
team
up
with
small
19
disadvantaged
businesses,
woman­
owned,
HUBZones,
20
8(
a),
you
don't
know
necessarily
all
the
time
21
what
their
needs
are,
but
you
can
team
up
with
22
them,
find
out
who
they
are.
23
On
my
website
you
can
get
into
a
list
24
of
prime
contractors
and
get
a
listing
of
all
of
25
our
prime
contractors
and
find
out
what
it
is
0049
1
that
they
do.
2
Do
your
homework.
There
may
be
3
opportunities
where
you
can
team,
and
they
may
4
not
always
give
you
money,
or
you
may
not
always
5
get
money,
but
you
might
get
some
in­
kind
6
services,
such
as
marketing
strategies,
7
something
to
help
you
with
your
accounting
8
system,
your
financial
systems,
those
kinds
of
9
things,
and
sometimes
it
is
good
to
be
aligned
10
with
a
well­
known
large
business.
11
From
my
conversations
with
some
of
the
12
people
here
today,
I
know
that
there
are
some
13
large
businesses
and
some
mid­
sized
businesses
14
here
that
are
looking
to
team
up
with
small,
15
minority,
woman­
owned
businesses,
8(
a),
16
HUBZones,
et
cetera,
so
you
need
to
take
17
advantage
of
that
and
take
a
look
at
our
18
mentor­
protege
program.
19
The
other
thing
that
I
didn't
mention
20
­­
what
was
the
other
thing
I
needed
to
21
mention?
22
Mentor­
protege.
We
allow
the
prime
23
contractor
to
enter
into
sole­
source
contracts
24
up
to
a
million
dollars
with
their
protegee
25
firm.
So,
there's
some
benefits
there,
and
0050
1
we're
looking
to
revise
that.
2
EPA
was
the
first
civilian
agency
to
3
have
a
mentor­
protege
program.
SBA
took
a
look
4
at
it,
came
to
talk
to
us
before
they
put
theirs
5
in
place.
NASA
looked
at
ours
and
a
couple
6
others.
7
Other
agencies
also
had,
outside
of
8
DOD,
mentor­
protege
programs
that
you
need
to
9
take
a
look
at
and
get
involved
in.
10
Mentor­
protege
was
one
­­
what
was
the
11
other
thing?
12
MS.
JEPSON:
GSA
Schedule.
13
MS.
BROWN:
How
many
of
you
all
have
14
GSA
schedules?
15
(
Show
of
hands.)
16
MS.
BROWN:
Whoa.
You
don't
have
GSA
17
schedules?
18
AUDIENCE:
In
the
process.
19
MS.
BROWN:
We
have
representatives
20
here
from
GSA.
Go
to
their
table,
find
out.
21
That
process
can
be
tedious,
but
one
of
the
22
first
things
my
program
people
will
ask
you
is,
23
do
you
have
a
GSA
schedule?
Because
if
you
do,
24
the
contract
has
already
been
negotiated.
All
25
the
terms
and
conditions
have
been
identified,
0051
1
and
we
can
place
an
order
against
that;
don't
2
have
to
compete.
3
Now,
one
of
the
things
that
has
kicked
4
in
recently
that
was
passed
was
the
Contract
5
Bundling
Rule,
anything
over
2
billion
for
EPA.
6
Some
of
the
other
agencies
with
larger
budgets,
7
have
another
dollar
threshold,
but
anything
over
8
2
billion
we
need
to
take
a
look
at
to
make
sure
9
that
small
businesses
are
not
losing
10
opportunities.
11
If
you
don't
have
a
GSA
schedule,
I
12
would
encourage
all
of
you
to
go
through
the
13
maze.
Take
the
time,
it's
well
worth
it,
not
14
just
for
EPA,
but
all
the
other
federal
15
agencies.
They
use
them
extensively.
16
I'm
not
always
one
to
support
GSA
17
Schedules
because
sometimes
I
think
it
hurts
18
small
business,
but
if
you're
a
small
business,
19
and
you
can
get
on
it,
it's
to
your
advantage.
20
Now,
the
thing
that
you
need
to
be
21
mindful
of
as
these
GSA
Schedule
contacts
are
22
negotiated,
for
8(
a)
funds
in
particular,
they
23
will
ask
you
how
do
you
want
this
to
count;
is
24
it
towards
your
8(
a)
goal,
or
is
it
towards
your
25
competitive
business
mix?
0052
1
For
the
contract
specialist,
the
prime
2
contractor,
when
you're
using
these
contractors
3
with
these
GSA
Schedules,
you
need
to
know
how
4
it
was
initially
negotiated
with
GSA,
because
it
5
may
not
necessarily
count
towards
their
8(
a)
6
goal.
It
could
count
towards
their
competitive
7
business
mix
that
they
have
to
maintain
with
8
SBA.
So,
that
needs
to
be
clear,
and
a
lot
of
9
people
don't
understand
that.
10
These
GSA
Schedules
can
go
on
for
15,
11
20
years,
a
long
time.
So
it's
to
your
12
advantage
to
go
through
the
paperwork
and
get
13
that
so
that
you
have
that.
14
Right
now
we
have
been
re­
engineered,
15
down­
sized,
streamlined,
you
name
it,
and
we're
16
doing
a
lot
more
with
less,
a
whole
lot
less.
17
So
if
the
GSA
Schedule
is
there
and
in
place,
18
all
a
Contracting
Officer
has
to
do
is
write
an
19
order
against
it,
and
that's
gone.
20
Yes,
sir?
21
AUDIENCE:
Did
you
say
that
the
project
22
officer
or
somebody
in
the
program
at
EPA
uses
23
your
company
through
a
GSA
Schedule
rather
than
24
go
through
the
8(
a)
process?
25
MS.
BROWN:
I'm
not
saying
that's
a
0053
1
no­
no.
2
What
I
was
trying
to
give
you
was
a
3
scenario
where
requirement
was
initially
in
the
4
8(
a)
Program,
and
the
contractor
graduated
from
5
8(
a),
but
they
had
a
GSA
schedule.
6
My
program
people
want
to
follow
that
7
firm
because
of
their
relationship,
and
they
8
know
what
kind
of
track
record
they
have.
I'm
9
saying
we
need
to
be
cautious
there
because
we
10
don't
know
how
that
contract
was
necessarily
11
negotiated.
It
may
or
may
not
count
against
his
12
8(
a)
status.
13
So
once
a
requirement
is
in
the
8(
a)
14
Program,
our
goal
is
to
keep
it
in
the
8(
a)
15
Program
so
that
other
firms
that
are
coming
16
through
with
that
portfolio
are
afforded
an
17
opportunity
for
that
requirement.
If
we
take
it
18
out,
then
there
goes
the
requirement,
and
you
19
don't
have
that
opportunity
under
the
8(
a)
20
Program.
21
The
other
thing,
though,
is
8(
a)
firms,
22
you
need
to
realize
how
you're
negotiating
with
23
the
GSA
for
these
GSA
Schedules
when
you
go
to
24
the
table.
Is
it
going
to
count
towards
your
25
competitive
business
mix,
or
is
it
counting
0054
1
towards
your
8(
a)
status?
It
makes
a
big
2
difference.
3
And
you
know
what,
a
lot
of
people
come
4
into
the
agencies
won't
come
up
and
tell
you,
5
and
I
have
to
get
on
my
program
people
because
6
they're
thinking,
well,
this
counts
towards
my
7
8(
a)
goal.
No,
it
doesn't.
8
A
lot
of
times
when
we
work
these
9
contracts,
this
is
something
internal
within
the
10
Federal
Government.
We
don't
get
credit
for
it
11
towards
my
small
business
goals;
GSA
gets
all
12
the
credit.
13
So
one
of
the
things
we
did
most
14
recently
under
our
IT
requirement,
under
IT's
15
EPA,
I'm
having
them
manually
count
and
give
me
16
credit
because
it
was
one
of
the
largest
IT.
17
I
think
it
was
like
$
16
million
over
a
five­
year
18
period
coming
out
of
EPA.
And
I
said
I
can't
19
afford
for
all
of
those
dollars
to
go,
and
we
20
don't
get
any
credit
for.
21
So
we're
doing
a
manual
tracking
of
how
22
much
is
going
to
small,
minority,
woman­
owned
23
businesses
under
the
subcontract
compliance,
and
24
we're
working
to
see
how
we
can
get
some
credit
25
for
that.
0055
1
That's
something
that
all
the
Federal
2
Government
is
looking
at
and
trying
to
work
out.
3
My
time
is
up.
I'm
going
to
be
here
4
for
the
next
two
days.
And
again,
like
I
said,
5
we
were
here
last
year
and
saw
our
need
to
come
6
back,
and
that
was
the
promise
we
made,
and
we
7
wanted
to
keep
so
we're
here.
Take
advantage
of
8
it.
9
Make
sure
you
leave
here
with
contacts
10
with
the
Federal
Government,
with
other
private
11
sector,
small
and
large
businesses
and
other
12
agencies
in
terms
of
what
it
is
that
they
do
and
13
how
you
can
network.
Hopefully,
by
the
time
14
this
is
over
tomorrow,
you
will
have
made
some
15
contacts
and
hopefully
even
some
deals
so
that
16
there
are
contracting
opportunities
that
will
17
come
about
as
a
result
of
these
days.
18
So
again,
I
thank
you
for
coming,
even
19
in
the
cold,
in
spite
of.
I
guess
many
of
you
20
all
are
used
to
it.
It's
cold
here.
21
But
I
thank
you
for
coming.
We're
here
22
and
take
advantage
of
it,
okay?
Thank
you.
23
(
Applause.)
24
(
Whereupon,
meeting
was
concluded
at
25
11:
00
a.
m.)
0056
1
REPORTER'S
CERTIFICATE
2
3
TITLE:
National
Center
for
American
Indian
Enterprise
Development
4
MEETING
DATE:
January
7,
2004
5
LOCATION:
Northern
Hotel,
Billings,
Montana
6
7
I
hereby
certify
that
the
proceedings
8
herein
are
contained
fully
and
accurately
on
the
9
tapes
recorded
by
me
at
the
conference
before
10
the
National
Center
for
American
Indian
11
Enterprise
Development,
and
that
this
is
a
true
12
and
correct
transcript
of
the
same.
13
14
DATE:
January
26,
2004
15
16
Marilyn
S.
Niezwaag
17
Big
Sky
Reporting
P.
O.
Box
20941
18
Billings,
Montana
59104
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
