0001
1
ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION
AGENCY
2
3
OFFICE
OF
SMALL
AND
DISADVANTAGED
BUSINESS
UTILIZATION
4
THE
EPA
REGION
X
TRIBAL
HEARING
ON
ITS
PROPOSED
DISADVANTAGED
5
BUSINESS
ENTERPRISE
RULE
6
7
8
PUBLIC
HEARING
9
TAKEN
ON
BEHALF
OF
THE
ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION
AGENCY
10
COEUR
D'ALENE
CASINO
RESORT
HOTEL
11
AT
WORLEY,
IDAHO
12
OCTOBER
8,
2003,
AT
10:
30
A.
M.
13
14
15
16
17
18
REPORTED
BY:
19
DAVID
E.
HIX,
C.
S.
R.
20
Notary
Public
21
22
23
24
25
0002
1
A
P
P
E
A
R
A
N
C
E
S
2
3
4
JEANETTE
BROWN
5
KIMBERLY
PATRICK
6
MARIE
McPEAK
7
MICHAEL
ADLER
8
KATHY
DAVIDSON
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0003
1
P
R
O
C
E
E
D
I
N
G
S
2
MS.
BROWN:
Good
morning.
My
name
is
3
Jeanette
Brown,
and
I'm
the
Director
of
the
Office
of
4
Small
and
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization
for
the
5
Environmental
Protection
Agency,
and
we're
here
to
talk
6
to
you
and
really
bring
to
you
the
MBE/
WBE
proposed
7
rule
changes
that
are
already
in
the
Federal
Register.
8
And
so
what
we're
doing
is
using
this,
as
we
9
are
all
around
the
country.
We've
identified
16
10
hearings
that
we
are
going
to
have
to
make
sure
that
11
the
public
is
aware,
grant
constituents,
are
aware
of
12
the
proposed
changes
and
allow
you
enough
time
to
get
13
your
comments
in
so
that
we
can
factor
in
the
14
recommendations
that
you
make.
15
As
such,
we
have
a
court
reporter
here
who
16
will
be
taking
the
proceeds
of
this
meeting,
taping
17
them
or
recording
them
so
that
we
can
go
back
to
make
18
sure
that
we
capture
the
concerns
that
you
all
raise.
19
We
may
not
­­
probably
won't
be
able
to
answer
all
of
20
your
questions.
What
we
want
to
do
is
to
hear
from
you
21
today
in
terms
of
­­
and
hopefully
you
had
a
chance
to
22
read
the
rules.
If
you
haven't,
we'll
go
over
­­
and
23
we'll
go
over
some
of
the
major
changes
that
we
have
24
identified
and
talk
about
the
impact
that
it
may
have
25
on
you
as
a
grant
recipient.
0004
1
We
have
determined
in
the
agency
that
we
2
don't
foresee
major
changes
with
a
lot
of
the
changes
3
that
we've
already
factored
in,
given
the
fact
that
4
we've
been
working
on
this
for
about
four
years.
We've
5
had
similar
meetings
up
until
this
point
in
open
forums
6
and
sessions,
and
so
we've
factored
in
a
lot
of
the
7
comments
that
have
already
come
in.
And
what
you
see
8
in
front
of
you,
or
what
we
will
discuss,
are
those
9
changes
that
we
have
so
identified.
10
Before
I
do
that,
though,
I
think
it's
11
important
that
I
would
introduce
some
of
the
people
12
just
in
case
you
aren't
familiar
with
who
we
are.
13
Kimberly
Patrick
here
is
my
staff
attorney
working
on
14
the
rule,
and
she's
out
of
Washington
D.
C.,
as
well.
15
And
so
if
you
have
any
questions
regarding
16
the
rule,
you
can
call
her
directly;
although,
we
are
17
on
the
road
quite
a
bit
between
now
and
January
20th.
18
I
think
you're
having
your
phone
calls
to
you
cell
19
phone?
Her
number
(
202)
564­
5386.
20
We
also
have
with
us
our
new
MBE/
WBE
21
coordinator,
who
is
not
new
to
the
program
and
that
is
22
Marie
McPeak
out
of
Region
X.
Are
you
all
familiar
23
with
Marie?
This
is
a
good
lady
to
know.
We're
very
24
glad
to
have
her
back
to
the
program
with
us
working,
25
and
she's
­­
like
I
say,
even
though
she's
back,
she's
0005
1
been
around
and
she
knows
the
program
very
well.
And
2
so
she's
also
most
definitely
a
good
source
of
contact
3
for
you.
4
We
have
other
people
from
within
the
region
5
here
as
well.
Grant
specialist
­­
6
MS.
PATRICK:
Michael
Adler.
7
MS.
BROWN:
­­
Michael
Adler,
and
then
we
also
8
have
with
us
Kathy
Davidson
as
well.
And
so
with
that
9
there
are
a
couple
of
things
that
I'd
like
to
start
off
10
with
as
we
start
discussing
and
going
over
the
changes
11
that
we
are
proposing
to
the
rule.
12
Before
I
do
that,
though,
as
you
have
13
questions
I
need
to
ask
that
you
use
the
mic,
tell
us
14
your
name
and
where
you're
from,
and
speak
into
the
mic
15
os
that
he
can
capture
it,
so
that
we
can
take
it
back
16
and
make
sure
we
consider
and
look
at
the
comments
that
17
you
all
are
making
to
us,
okay?
Is
that
all
right?
18
Good.
19
Before
I
go
into
the
rule
itself
let
me
give
20
you
an
update.
Like
I
said,
we've
been
doing
this
now,
21
Marie,
for
about
four
years.
We
had
a
draft
proposed
22
rule
out
were
we
went
out
initially
on
what
we
thought
23
the
changes
were
that
needed
to
be
made
to
the
program.
24
If
you
are
a
grant
recipient
from
EPA,
all
of
25
your
grants
should
contain
an
MBE/
WBE
Fair
Share
0006
1
Clause.
In
the
past
what
we
have
done
is
negotiated
2
rates
or
goals
to
go
into
those
grants
for
the
various
3
recipients.
There
was
a
Supreme
Court
case
that
came
4
out
in
1995
­­
that's
how
far
this
goes
back
­­
and
it
5
came
out
of
the
state
of
Colorado.
And
it
drastically
6
changed
how
the
Federal
Government
should
do
business.
7
As
a
result
of
that
there
was
a
review
of
all
8
of
the
Federal
grant
programs
or
programs
like
ours,
9
DOT
and
EPA,
and
it
was
recommended
that
we
make
some
10
changes.
We've
been
working
with
the
Department
of
11
Justice
on
those
changes.
It
was
recommended
that
the
12
Department
of
Transportation
go
first
and
then
we
would
13
follow.
14
DOT
has
made
major
changes,
and
they
are
now
15
in
place
for
about
a
year
and
a
half
with
their
16
program.
We
are
last
ones
to
fall
in
line.
So
that's
17
how
we
got
here.
We
had
a
draft
proposed
rule
that
was
18
up
on
our
website
and
has
been
there.
We
have
made
19
drastic
changes,
and
now
we've
gotten
to
this
where
our
20
proposed
rule
­­
and
this
is
the
official
proposed
rule
21
­­
was
issued
in
the
Federal
Register
in
July
of
this
22
year.
23
We
have
180
days
to
have
hearings
around
the
24
country
to
talk
about
and
make
sure
that
the
public
is
25
aware
of
the
proposed
changes
and
solicit
your
comments
0007
1
back
to
us.
Please,
by
all
means,
read
it
if
you
have
2
questions
and
you're
not
sure.
We've
tried
to
put
in
3
the
layman's
terms
as
best
we
can
so
that
you
will
know
4
exactly
how
it
will
affect
you
as
a
grant
recipient
5
from
the
EPA
funding.
6
Send
us
your
questions
and
your
comments.
We
7
need
and
we
want
to
hear
from
you
so
that
we
can
factor
8
that
in
as
this
rule
becomes
final.
So
with
that
I
9
think
it
will
be
good
­­
anything
else
you
think
I
need
10
to
add,
Marie?
11
MS.
McPEAK:
No.
12
MS.
BROWN:
Okay.
With
that
I
think
it
would
13
be
if
­­
and
I'm
going
to
sit
down,
if
you
don't
mind.
14
Instead
of
standing
I'm
going
to
sit
right
here
and
go
15
over
what
the
changes,
proposed
changes
are.
Did
16
everybody
see
a
copy
of
the
summary?
I'm
going
to
go
17
right
down
here
and
go
over
these.
It's
the
summary
of
18
major
elements
of
the
proposed
EPA
DBE
rule
and
19
preamble.
20
MS.
McPEAK:
It
looks
like
this
one.
21
UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
Where
do
we
get
it?
22
MS.
McPEAK:
Right
out
at
the
main
table.
23
It's
in
very
large
print.
24
MS.
BROWN:
It's
in
large
print.
I
will
tell
25
you
that
the
rule
was
issued
Thursday,
July
24,
2003.
0008
1
It
is
found
in
Part
3
of
the
Federal
Register
under
2
Part
40,
CFR
Part
30.
It's
called
Environmental
3
Protection
Agency
and
there
you
will
find
the
proposed
4
rule.
5
MS.
McPEAK:
We
also
have
copies
of
the
6
complete
rule
out
there
too,
and
this
is
what
the
7
Federal
Register
Notice
looks
like.
8
MS.
BROWN:
Do
we
have
enough?
9
MS.
PATRICK:
I
think
we're
out
of
those
at
10
this
point
in
time.
Marie
has
also
put
out
there
on
11
the
table
a
sheet
that
has
a
cover
letter
on
it,
that
12
is
on
EPA
letterhead,
and
within
that
package
is
a
copy
13
of
the
question
and
answer
sheet
that
we
have,
which
14
gives
you
specific
instruction
on
how
to
send
your
15
comments
in.
16
They
can
be
sent
electronically,
by
fax,
by
17
mail,
by
carrier
pigeon
practically.
Any
way
you
want
18
to
get
them
there,
we
will
take
the
comments.
And
so
19
it
gives
you
some
more
specifics
on
where
to
find
the
20
rule
electronically
and
also
how
to
contact
us
if
you
21
need
one
by
mail.
If
you
don't,
you
know,
do
the
whole
22
electronic
thing.
We
make
it
available
that
way
as
23
well.
24
MS.
BROWN:
You
can
also
access
the
Federal
25
Register
document
electronically
through
our
website
0009
1
at:
www.
epa.
gov/
fedrgstr,
and
that
will
pull
up
the
2
entire
rule
electronically
there.
3
The
summary
of
the
major
elements
of
the
4
proposed
rule
are
follows:
The
first
one
we're
looking
5
to
change
the
name
from
MBE/
WBE
to
DBE.
One
reason
6
we're
trying
or
looking
at
doing
this
is
for
7
consistency
across
to
the
Federal
Government
for
8
programs
or
with
programs
like
this.
9
A
DBE
is
defined
as
an
entity
owned
and/
or
10
controlled
by
an
individual
who
was
socially
and
11
economically
disadvantaged
under
either
the
EPA's
8
12
percent
or
10
percent
statute,
as
well
as
the
Labor
13
Surplus
Area
Small
Business
Program
under
the
­­
out
of
14
the
SBA.
15
The
second
requirement
or
change
that
we're
16
looking
at
is
certification.
Under
the
proposal
there
17
will
be
three
changes
to
the
current
certification
18
requirements
in
order
to
satisfy
the
Supreme
Court
19
ruling
under
the
Adarand
decision
as
it
relates
to
20
strict
scrutiny.
21
The
first
one
is
we
will
no
longer
accept
22
self­
certifications
from
an
MBE/
WBE.
If
there
is
a
23
minority
business
today
­­
right
now
as
the
program
24
exists,
if
you
say
you're
a
minority
business,
we
25
accept
that
point
blank
and
you
don't
have
to
do
0010
1
anything
else
to
show
us
or
document
or
have
any
other
2
kinds
of
certifications.
3
Once
this
proposal
or
this
rule
becomes
4
final,
we
will
no
longer
­­
we
anticipate
we
would
no
5
longer
accept
MBE/
WBE
self­
certification.
There's
a
6
process
that
we'll
have
to
follow.
We
recognize
7
MBE/
WBE
certification
and,
again,
that's
entities
owned
8
and
controlled
by
a
socially
or
economically
9
disadvantaged
individual
under
either
our
8
percent
or
10
10
percent
statute
by
state
or
local
government
or
11
tribal
governments
and
private
certifiers
so
long
as
12
their
programs
or
criteria
matches
those
that
are
under
13
Section
8
(
a)(
5)
and
(
6)
of
the
Small
Business
Act
from
14
the
Small
Business
Administration's
program.
15
And
basically
what
we're
saying
is
this:
16
Because
we
will
no
longer
accept
self­
certifications,
17
if
a
state,
a
local
government
or
tribal
government
has
18
a
certifying
program
for
minority
contractors,
we
will
19
accept
it
provided
it
meets
the
same
criteria
that
we
20
have
under
Section
8
(
a)
and
(
5)
and
(
6)
of
the
Small
21
Business
Act.
22
We
also
want
to
clarify
that
EPA
will
accept
23
DOT/
DBE
certifications
as
valid
certifications
under
24
our
program
if
EPA
citizenship
requirements
are
met.
25
That
means
right
now
under
the
DOT
program
you
don't
0011
1
have
to
be
a
citizen
to
get
certified
under
their
2
program.
EPA
is
saying
you
do
have
to
be
a
citizen.
3
The
second
major
change
is
this:
We
will
4
require
that
an
entity
first
try
to
become
certified
as
5
an
MBE
or
WBE
by
SBA
or
DOT.
We
recommend
that
they
6
try
to
gain
that
certification
first.
Then
if
all
else
7
fails
or
they
cannot
get
it
for
whatever
reason,
you
8
come
to
how
us
and
then
we
will
certify.
9
Currently
under
the
program,
and
until
this
10
rule
becomes
final
­­
let
me
be
clear
­­
this
is
not
in
11
effect
now.
It
doesn't
affect
your
grants
now,
and
we
12
anticipate
that
this
rule
probably
won't
be
in
effect
13
for
another
year,
year
and
a
half.
So
this,
the
14
requirements
that
I'm
talking
about,
the
changes
that
15
I'm
talking
about,
are
to
come.
They're
not
here
now.
16
Yes,
sir.
Tell
me
who
you
are
and
what
your
question
17
is.
18
MR.
DOWNY:
Tom
Downy,
CTSI.
The
question
19
is:
If
we've
been
doing
quarter
reports
then
do
we
20
continue
to
do
these
quarter
reports
under
this
or
do
21
we
just
quit
and
then
take
it
up
when
the
new
program
22
is
implemented?
23
MS.
PATRICK:
Let
me
­­
let
me
sort
of
24
respond
to
that.
Perhaps
let
me
ask
a
very
quick
25
question.
How
many
people
in
here
are
business
0012
1
owners?
2
UNIDENTIFIED:
(
Show
of
Hands).
3
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
If
a
lot
of
the
4
certification
stuff
we
can
sort
of
skip
over
unless
you
5
have
specific
questions
about
it.
We
can
get
to
the
6
meat
of
how
it
actually
affects
you
as
grant
7
recipients.
Is
that
okay
with
everybody
in
the
room?
8
Because
the
certification
will
bore
you
to
tears
if
9
you're
not
a
business
owner,
because
it
doesn't
really
10
have
that
much
of
an
impact
on
you,
so
we
can
sort
of
11
­­
well,
we're
going
to
answer
your
question
sir,
most
12
definitely.
But
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
we're
­­
13
we
haven't
forgotten
about
your
question.
I
just
want
14
to
make
sure
that
we're
sort
of
catering
to
what
the
15
audience
needs.
16
But
to
answer
his
question
real
quick,
about
17
the
quarterly
reporting,
right
now
reporting
is
18
required
even
for
tribal
recipients,
and
that
will
19
continue
to
be
the
case
even
once
the
new
rule
is
in
20
effect.
21
MS.
BROWN:
Say
that
again,
I
couldn't
hear
22
you.
23
MS.
KRUEGER:
He
asked
you
if
you
were
24
changing
the
names
but
not
the
requirements.
25
MS.
BROWN:
We're
changing
some
of
the
0013
1
requirements.
We
are
proposing
to
change
the
name
as
2
well.
3
MR.
DOWNY:
Okay.
That's
what
I'm
trying
to
4
get
at.
As
a
recipient
of
the
Federal
grant
one
of
the
5
things
we're
trying
to
get
across
is
the
fact
that
6
we're
already
doing
these
things.
7
MS.
BROWN:
Right.
8
MR.
DOWNY:
And
if
you're
going
to
change
the
9
name,
or
you're
changing
the
requirements
­­
I
haven't
10
had
a
chance
to
read
this
all
the
way
through.
I
guess
11
I
might
as
well
wait
until
you
get
all
through.
12
MS.
BROWN:
Okay.
13
MS.
KRUEGER:
I'm
Katie
Krueger
with
the
14
Quileute
Tribe,
and
for
the
court
reporter
that's
15
Q­
u­
i­
l­
e­
u­
t­
e
in
Western
Washington.
I
would
­­
this
16
wasn't
my
question
initially
but
I
would
like
to
answer
17
the
attorney's
question.
I
would
like
you
to
describe
18
what's
necessary
for
business
applicants
because
it
19
looks
like
tribes
are
now
an
entity
that
has
to
certify
20
them,
and
I
would
like
to
be
able
to
give
correct
21
advice
to
the
contracts
and
grants
officer
at
our
22
tribe.
I
hope
I'm
not
in
the
minority
in
that
regard.
23
MS.
McPEAK:
No,
it
won't
­­
it
won't
take
me
24
that
long.
25
MS.
KRUEGER:
And
my
question
was:
Can
you
0014
1
give
me
the
citation
for
section
8
(
5)
and
(
6)
of
the
2
Small
Business
Act?
What
USC
is
that?
Also,
what
CFR
3
for
the
business
development
regulations
so
that
I
can
4
find
them.
Thank
you.
5
MS.
BROWN:
We're
going
to
get
back
to
that.
6
She's
looking
for
the
citation
on
her
question
so
that
7
we
can
get
­­
8
MS.
PATRICK:
I
can
answer
her
question
about
9
the
certification
program
that
we
have.
10
MS.
BROWN:
Marie.
11
MS.
McPEAK:
Well,
can
I
address
Tom's
12
question
real
quick?
I
know
that
Tom
is
going
to
have
13
how
leave
probably
to
go
to
another
session,
and
I'd
14
just
like
to
address
his
question
right
now.
When
the
15
Minority
and
Women
Business
requirements
where
into
the
16
regulations,
the
reporting
requirement
was
not
put
into
17
the
regulations.
But
the
reporting
requirement
was
put
18
on
all
recipients
of
Federal
grants.
19
Because
of
the
way
that
tribes
were
allowed
20
to
report
we
never
required
reporting
in
our
region
for
21
the
tribes.
That
was
an
oversight
probably
on
our
part
22
as
a
region
to
not
require
the
reporting.
But
when
it
23
came
down
that
we
had
to
be
reporting
in
a
different
24
manner
than
what
we
had
always
been
required
to
report,
25
then
we
had
to
reinstitute
the
reporting
requirements
0015
1
for
all
grantees,
and
that's
when
you
started
seeing
2
the
condition
in
your
grants
saying
that
you
had
to
3
report.
4
And
so
even
though
across
the
country
tribes
5
were
reporting,
in
our
region
we
never
required
them
to
6
report.
So
the
requirement
is
for
tribes
to
report.
7
It
will
be
continued
to
be
for
tribes
to
report
on
8
utilization
actually
achieved.
9
MS.
BROWN:
Thank
you,
Marie.
One
of
the
10
things
when
I
talked
about
there
was
a
review
done
of
11
the
programs
overall,
one
of
the
things
that
we
saw
was
12
inconsistency
on
how
this
program
in
particular,
how
13
it's
being
carried
out
throughout
EPA.
So
one
of
the
14
things,
with
all
of
the
changes
that
we're
looking
at,
15
is
looking
at
being
consistent
throughout
EPA
on
how
we
16
manage
and
oversee
the
program.
17
Yes,
Marie
is
right.
In
this
region
you
were
18
not
required
to
report,
and
that
was
a
decision
that
19
was
made
a
long
time
ago.
However,
that
reporting
20
requirement
from
the
agency
perspective
was
still
21
there.
Some
of
the
other
regions
required
their
tribes
22
to
report.
When
we
saw
this
inconsistency
we
tried
to
23
change
that,
and
we
will
because
that
is
a
requirement
24
that
exists.
You
will
have
to
report,
and
that's
25
across
to
the
board.
All
the
tribes
will
have
to
0016
1
report.
2
Now,
how
we
get
­­
and
the
tribal
reporting
3
is
not
going
to
go
away.
It's
always
been
there.
We
4
just
didn't
enforce
it,
okay.
And
it's
not
just
on
the
5
tribes.
It's
everybody
that
is
a
recipient
of
the
6
Federal
funding:
The
states,
the
nonprofits,
anybody
7
getting
money
from
us
has
to
report
back.
So
it's
not
8
something
that
we're
just
singling
out
one
group
over
9
another.
It's
consistent.
10
We
haven't
been
consistent
in
carrying
out
11
the
program.
So
we're
tying
to
do
a
lot
of
things
with
12
this
proposed
rule
to
make
the
program
uniform
13
throughout
the
agency
and
then,
also,
come
in
14
compliance
with
across
the
board.
We've
done
some
15
administrative
changes
so
that
we
can
be
in
compliance
16
with
the
new
law
of
the
land,
the
Adarand
decision,
but
17
we
have
to
go
through
this
process
with
the
rule,
okay.
18
Did
we
address
your
question,
sir?
Go
ahead
19
that's
what
we're
here
for.
20
MR.
DOWNY:
I
think
my
questions
will
be
21
answered
once
I
hear
what
you
have
to
say.
22
MS.
BROWN:
Okay.
Thank
you,
sir.
Kimberly.
23
MS.
PATRICK:
So
that
everyone
else
is
also
24
privileged
to
the
information
I
just
gave
her,
the
25
citation
for
the
requirements
of
the
Small
Business
Act
0017
1
can
be
found
at
13
CFR
124.105,
also,
in
Section
2
124.106,
124.103
­­
and
why
they're
listed
out
of
order
3
I
don't
know
­­
and
124.104.
And
if
you
actually
have
4
one
of
the
copies
of
the
actual
Federal
Register
Notice
5
that's
found
on
page
43.828.
6
MS.
McPEAK:
Kimberly.
7
MS.
McPEAK:
Yes.
8
MS.
McPEAK:
These
are
SBA's
regulations
9
right?
10
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes.
Those
citations
are
the
11
SBA
regulations
that
she
requested.
12
MS.
McPEAK:
That's
the
Small
Business
13
Administration?
14
MS.
BROWN:
That's
the
Small
Business
15
Administration,
SBA
is
the
Small
Business
16
Administration.
And
they
set
the
rules
and
the
policy
17
and
the
regulations
on
how
small
businesses
will
18
operate,
how
we
will
operate
with
them.
So
we
have
to
19
follow
their
regulations
because
this
is
not
ours.
20
They
set
that
for
all
of
the
Federal
agencies
and
then
21
we
have
to
comply.
22
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
I've
finished
up
the
23
rest
of
the
little
part
on
the
certifications,
so
we
24
can
move
onto
the
meat
of
what
you
probably
need
to
25
know.
0018
1
There
are
certain
classes
of
potential
2
business
that
will
need
to
be
certified.
The
EPA
will
3
have
to
certify
as
a
matter
of
first
impression,
which
4
means
these
entities
currently
cannot
go
anywhere
else
5
to
receive
certifications,
because
those
programs
are
6
not
set
up
yet
to
certify
those
entities.
Those
7
entities
will
be
women
owned
businesses
because
8
currently
SBA
does
not
certify
women
and
neither
does
9
DOT.
EPA
would
be
the
agency
they
would
have
to
come
10
to
as
a
matter
of
first
impression
to
get
that
type
of
11
certification.
12
Also
disabled
American
owned
businesses,
13
another
category
that's
not
currently
certified
by
14
SBA.
EPA
has
special
provisions
in
our
regulations
for
15
that
category,
so
we
have
to
take
on
the
responsibility
16
of
certifying
those
entities.
17
Private
or
voluntary
organizations
controlled
18
by
individuals
who
are
socially
and
economically
19
disadvantaged:
EPA
will
certify
those
people
as
well
20
as
entities
which
are
certified
under
criteria
which
21
are
inconsistent
with
EPA's
DBE
program
criteria,
which
22
is
the
distinction
that's
­­
we're
in,
I
think
in
the
8
23
percent
statute
at
EPA.
24
You
have
to
be
owned
and
controlled
by
a
25
socially
disadvantaged
individual.
But
in
the
10
0019
1
percent
statute
it
says
it
has
to
be
owned
or
control,
2
which
is
a
huge
difference,
really,
because
the
rest
of
3
the
Federal
Government
the
standard
is
owned
and
4
controlled.
So
for
the
part
under
the
10
percent
5
statute,
people
who
want
to
be
certified,
we
have
to
6
allow
them
to
be
either
owned
or
controlled,
that's
7
what
that
distinction
is
about
there.
8
And
finally,
in
fact,
that's
the
last
9
category
of
the
ones
that
we
specifically
have
to
10
certify.
Let's
see,
the
next
part
under
certification,
11
really
quickly,
is
that
the
requirements
in
terms
of
12
initial
eligibility
would
be
the
personal
net
worth
13
amount
which
would
be
$
750,000
for
the
individual.
14
Let's
see,
the
main
parts
that
we
need
to
15
really
get
to
are
the
issues
under
­­
the
issues
you
16
need
to
know
for
­­
yes,
ma'am.
17
MS.
KRUEGER:
I'm
sorry.
Katie
Krueger
with
18
Quileute
Tribe
again.
I'm
finding
the
wording
on
page
19
2
and
3
very
confusing.
Can
you
tell
me
if
Group
A­
E
20
can
be
certified
by
tribes
and
states?
Because
what
21
you
have
at
the
bottom
of
page
2
is
that
they
wouldn't
22
qualify
for
certification
from
SBA
or
DOT.
23
Under
the
new
rule
would
these
five
24
categories
qualify
for
certification
by
a
state
or
25
tribe?
0020
1
MS.
BROWN:
We
will
accept
under
this
state
2
or
tribal
certifications
provided
they
meet
the
EPA.
3
MS.
PATRICK:
We
will
accept
the
4
certifications
from
those
entities
­­
if
the
state
or
5
the
tribal
government
certifies
women,
that's
great,
6
then
you
have
that
certification
and
their
program
7
meets
our
requirement,
meaning
the
criteria
is
the
8
same.
We'll
gladly
accept
that
certification
as
well,
9
that's
not
a
problem.
10
We
just
know
that
SBA
and
DOT
don't
certify
11
the
people
in
these
five
categories,
and
so
we
have
to
12
be
the
ones
to
certify
them
because
they
don't.
Now,
13
if
the
state
or
tribal
government
does
that
14
certification
and
it
meets
our
standards,
we
have
no
15
problem
accepting
that
certification.
16
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
The
tribe
­­
the
tribe
or
17
the
tribal
government
can
­­
18
MS.
BROWN:
Yes.
19
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
Does
­­
20
MS.
BROWN:
Can
you
say
your
name
and
the
21
tribe
that
you
represent
and
then
state
your
question?
22
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
Marina
Turningrobe
from
the
23
Spokane
Tribe.
The
tribe
has,
as
the
government,
has
24
the
power
to
certify,
correct?
25
MS.
PATRICK:
Most
definitely.
0021
1
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
So
this
will
­­
that
is
a
2
sufficient
certification
pending
all
the
­­
we
meet
all
3
of
the
requirements
that
are
stated
here.
4
MS.
PATRICK:
Exactly.
5
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
So
if
I
or
someone
in
the
6
tribe
meets
all
these
qualifications,
that
individual
7
can
go
to
their
tribal
government
and
be
certified
from
8
them
if
the
tribe
does
that?
9
MS.
PATRICK:
Right.
If
the
tribe
does
that,
10
that's
perfectly
fine.
11
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
And
the
tribe
­­
tribal
12
government
in
their
own
right
has
the
ability
and
the
13
power
to
do
that?
14
MS.
PATRICK:
If
the
tribal
government
has
15
set
up
a
certification
program
for
these
entities
and
16
that's
what
they've
chosen
to
do
in
their
government,
17
and
those
certification
requirements
match
ours,
we
18
will
accept
that
certification.
All
you
have
to
do
is
19
come
to
us
and
say,
hey,
I
have
this,
and
we
will
look
20
at
that.
We
will
look
at
what
their
requirements
and
21
their
criteria
are.
If
they
match,
then
you'll
get
EPA
22
certification
based
on
the
certification
you
currently
23
have,
okay.
24
MS.
BROWN:
The
key
is
matching,
because
we
25
do
know
some
states
and
local
jurisdictions
don't
use
0022
1
that
same
criteria
that
we
do
at
the
Federal
level.
2
What
we
have
to
do
is
give
it
to
our
attorneys,
and
3
they
look
at
that
to
see
if
the
criteria
are
the
same.
4
If
they're
equal,
it's
not
a
problem.
And
that's
5
regardless
of
where
the
certification
is
coming
from.
6
We
have
to
look
at
what
they
use
to
certify,
the
7
criteria
they
use
to
certify,
to
make
sure
that
it
8
meets
the
Federal
Government
or
our
standards.
9
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
Marina
Turningrobe,
Spokane
10
Tribe.
If
the
tribal
government
chose
to
start
11
certification,
all
that
government
should
do
is
review,
12
again,
the
requirements
just
to
make
sure
their
program
13
is
set
up
to
match?
And
who
would,
for
example,
14
someone
in
a
tribal
government
contact?
15
MS.
BROWN:
The
region
here.
16
MS.
PATRICK:
If
the
tribal
government
was
17
interested
and
they
wanted
to
set
up
­­
I
think
that's
18
your
question
­­
they
wanted
to
set
up
a
certification
19
program
and
they
wanted,
you
know,
to
know
how
do
we
do
20
this?
What
would
the
criteria
be?
My
first
suggestion
21
would
be
to
set
up
according
to
what
SBA
has,
because
22
SBA
told
us
how
to
set
ours
up.
And
that
type
of
23
information
can
be
gotten
quite
easily
from
SBA.
They
24
would
love
to
share
that
I'm
sure.
25
And
if
the
SBA
is
nonresponsive,
which
I
0023
1
doubt
they
would
be,
we
can
most
certainly
share
with
2
you
what
our
criteria
are,
and
so
we
can't
dictate
what
3
a
tribal
government
plans
to
do,
so
if
they
want
to
4
make
their
­­
it's
totally
up
to
them
what
their
5
requirements
are.
6
But
it
would
be
prudent
to
have
it
match
such
7
that
they're
certified
and
their
independent
tribal
8
businesses
won't
have
to
go
through
several
different
9
certifications.
Because
if
it's
something
that's
10
standard
and
along
with
the
rest
of
the
government
and
11
then,
of
course,
that
makes
it
easier
for
the
business
12
owner,
but
that's
a
decision
that
the
tribal
government
13
has
to
make
on
its
own.
14
MS.
ADLER:
Michael
Adler.
I'm
with
the
15
EPA.
I
just
wonder
if
it's
true
as
general
grant
16
procedures
go,
that
whatever
processes
is
set
up,
that
17
it
be
the
standard
process?
So
that
in
this
same
way
18
that
one
has
to
have
personnel,
standard
personnel
19
practices
or
standard
travel
practices,
you'd
have
to
20
have
a
standard
certification
practice
that
you
use
for
21
all
of
the
people
applying.
I
just
wanted
to
clarify
22
that.
23
MS.
BROWN:
And
that's
right.
It
would
have
24
to
be
across
the
board
and
to
use
this
with
anybody
who
25
wants
to
be
certified.
You
can't
make
it
up
as
you
go.
0024
1
MS.
ADLER:
You
can't
make
it
up
according
to
2
each
individual
as
they
come
up.
3
MS.
BROWN:
Right.
4
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
Here
we
go,
the
fun
5
part,
the
things
that
are
specifically
going
to
apply
6
to
grant
recipients.
We've
already
discussed
the
fact
7
that
the
reporting
requirement
is
not
something
new.
8
Jeanette
just
spoke
about
how
it's
just
something
we're
9
going
to
now
actually
enforce,
so
that
part
is
not
10
brand
new
at
all.
11
The
part
that
is
probably
­­
will
have
the
12
most
affect
on
the
tribal
community
is
the
fact
that
at
13
this
point
­­
not
at
this
point
­­
once
this
rule
goes
14
final,
if
it
goes
final
as
it
is,
is
that
we
will
15
require
tribes
to
negotiate
goals
with
us
for
MBE/
WBE
16
participation
or
DBE
as
it
would
be.
And
that
is
17
something
that
is
a
brand
new
requirement.
18
I
want
to
start
off
by
saying
we've
received
19
a
lot
of
comments
on
that,
particularly
­­
ultimately
20
seeking
that
we
completely
exempt
tribes
all
together
21
from
having
to
do
negotiations.
What
we
have
done,
as
22
a
result
of
the
comments
that
we
have
received,
we
have
23
two
categories
of
exemptions:
24
First
is
that
for
grant
amounts
that
are
25
$
250,000
and
above
­­
and
that
would
be
an
aggregate
0025
1
amount
for
a
particular
year
­­
then
that
will
be
2
entity
will
be
subject
to
negotiating
goals
with
us.
3
Anything
under
the
$
250,000
would
not
have
to
negotiate
4
goals
with
us.
That's
very
important,
because
that
5
eliminates
a
large
number
of
recipients
who
would
have
6
to
negotiate
goals.
7
The
second
exemption
that
we
have
is
that
PPG
8
eligible
grants
to
tribal
recipients
are
exempt
from
9
negotiations
in
this
proposed
rule.
In
effect,
what
10
that
does
there
are
17
categories
of
grants
which
are
11
eligible
to
be
rolled
into
a
PPG.
If
you
are
a
12
recipient
receiving
grants
in
any
of
those
17
13
categories,
you
would
be
exempt
from
negotiating
goals
14
with
us.
That
is
a
huge
exemption,
huge
exemption.
15
I
think
we
ran
the
numbers
at
one
point
16
paticularly
for
Region
X,
because
this
is
the
region
17
with
the
largest
number
of
tribal
grant
recipients.
18
That
dwindled
down
the
number
of
recipients
who
would
19
have
to
negotiate
to
well
under
20,
and
we're
talking
20
about
under
20
for
a
region
with
close
to
200
or
more
21
tribes
­­
more
than
that,
sorry.
22
And
so
to
go
from
that
large
number
down
to
23
20
is
a
huge
exemption.
And
so
I
just
wanted
to
put
24
that
out
there
first.
And
those
two
changes
and
those
25
two
levels
of
exemptions
were
as
a
direct
result
of
the
0026
1
comments
that
we've
received
along
the
way
from
you
2
about
the
particular
provision.
3
Let
me
point
out
that
exemption
is
only
from
4
negotiating
goals.
It
is
not
an
exemption
from
5
reporting.
Reporting
is
here.
Reporting
will
be
6
here.
Reporting
will
never,
ever
go
away.
We're
7
always
going
to
need
to
know
exactly
what
recipients
8
across
the
board
are
doing
with
the
money
that
we
give
9
out
to
them,
and
I
think
that's
pretty
reasonable.
I
10
don't
think
anybody
would
just
give
money
away
and
say,
11
okay,
do
whatever
you
want
with
it.
12
And
so
it's
important
for
us
now
to
know
how
13
how
the
dollars
are
being
spent.
But
the
negotiations
14
part
is
what
those
exemptions
would
apply
to.
I
just
15
wanted
to
make
that
really,
really
clear.
16
Another
thing
is
that
tribes
will
also
be
17
expected,
just
like
any
other
grant
recipients,
to
go
18
forward
with
the
six
good
faith
efforts,
which
is
19
something
any
other
grant
recipients
has
to
do
as
20
well.
Those
six
good
faith
efforts
are
efforts
that
we
21
expect
our
grantees
to
make,
to
at
least
seek
out
22
possible
DBEs
to
do
contracting
with
under
their
23
grants.
24
And
those
six
efforts
are
really
geared
at
25
making
sure
that
the
recipients
at
least
look
and
see
0027
1
what's
available
in
your
area
to
do
the
jobs
that
you
2
need
to
do.
How
that
work
is,
if
under
your
grant
you
3
go
out
and
contract
for
things
in
four
categories:
4
Construction,
equipment,
services
or
supplies,
any
one
5
of
those
four
categories,
if
you
do
any
contracting
6
this
program
would
kick.
7
And
the
expectation
is
you
would
go
through
8
those
six
good
faith
efforts
to
at
least
seek
out
and
9
see
if
any
DBEs
are
available
to
do
the
work
that
you
10
need
done
or
provide
the
services
you
need
or
to
give
11
you
the
equipment
that
you
require.
12
We
are
not
asking
that
you
completely
go
out
13
of
your
way
and
do
things
that
don't
make
sense,
good
14
business
sense
to
you
or
your
tribe.
What
we're
asking
15
is
you
look
to
see
what's
in
your
area.
For
example,
16
if
you
know
you
need
copy
paper
and
you
have
a
Staples
17
over
here
and
you
have
a
small
mom­
and­
pop
business
18
right
next
door
that's
a
DBE.
19
If
it's
reasonable
for
you
to
go
there,
and
20
it's
not
going
to
hurt
you
in
terms
of
costs
­­
let's
21
say
it
could
be
cost
beneficial
for
you
to
go
to
the
22
small
disadvantaged
business
­­
we're
asking
that
you
23
seek
it
out
and
that
you
do
that.
24
Now,
we're
not
asking
you
to
got
to
the
mom
25
and
pop
if
you're
going
to
pay
three
times
the
amount
0028
1
for
the
paper,
that
just
doesn't
make
sense.
And
we're
2
asking
you
to
document
as
you
go
along
what
your
3
processes
were.
What
did
you
do
to
seek
out
these
4
small
and
disadvantaged
businesses?
5
And
when
you
really
look
at
the
program
as
a
6
whole,
it's
not
just
helping
us.
It's
also
helping
7
your
tribal
community,
because
we're
hoping
a
lot
of
8
those
dollars
will
get
recycled
back
through
your
9
community
for
the
things
that
you
need,
and
so
that
10
you're
not
going
to
spend
this
money
with
the
large
11
businesses
who
really
are
not
feeding
monies
back
into
12
your
community.
So
that's
one
of
the
things
that
we're
13
hoping
really,
really
will
sort
of
catch
fire
and
grow
14
in
a
lot
of
small
areas,
not
just
with
the
tribal
15
communities
but
with
disadvantaged
businesses
and
16
disadvantaged
communities
across
the
country
period,
17
and
recycling
dollars
is
real.
Marie.
18
MS.
McPEAK:
The
one
thing
I
want
to
point
19
out
here
is
a
lot
of
the
tribes
do
have
tribal
20
preference
in
their
procurements.
This
is
to
help
that
21
also,
because
the
tribal
businesses
are
considered
to
22
be
minority
businesses.
And
so
we
do
stress
that
if
23
you
do
have
tribal
preference
in
your
procurements,
use
24
it.
25
This
is
­­
this
is
food
for
tribal
0029
1
businesses,
because
this
will
promote
also
them
using
2
tribal
businesses
as
they
should
rather
than
going
to
a
3
big
firm
who
is
­­
like
a
big
engineering
firm
or
so
4
forth
­­
if
you
contract
with
tribal
businesses,
you
5
are
contracting
with
minority
businesses,
so
we
do
6
encourage
that
too.
7
MS.
KRUEGER:
Katie
Krueger,
Quileute
Tribe.
8
I
just
heard
something
that
kind
of
gives
me
pause
and
9
that's
with
major
construction.
You
really
want
a
firm
10
that
is
going
to
be
solvent
because
mistakes
are
made
11
even
by
the
best
of
contractors
by
their
subcontractors
12
and
by
them,
and
they
show
up
sometimes
two
or
three
13
years
later.
14
And
frankly,
it
kind
of
scares
me
that
we
15
would
have
to
go
with
a
company
just
because
of
its
bid
16
or
because
of
its
racial
or
other
minority
category
17
origine
when
we
feel
more
comfortable
­­
I'm
making
18
this
up
okay,
because
I
don't
have
a
case
in
hand.
I
19
just
know
about
contractors.
I've
been
around
long
20
enough
to
know
about
them.
21
You
know,
I
know
that
our
tribe
just
recently
22
used
a
major
firm
in
Seattle
to
do
the
construction
of
23
their
new
gym
and
community
center,
and
this
is
a
firm
24
that
is
going
to
be
around
for
a
while.
And
I'm
very
25
concerned
about
what
can
happen
if
you
use
a
firm
that
0030
1
may,
because
if
its
size,
not
be
around
for
a
while
to
2
honor
problems
in
construction.
3
How
can
you
­­
in
other
words,
is
that
4
concern
in
and
of
itself
a
justification.
And
I
have
a
5
second
question,
because
I
wasn't
anticipating
this
6
question
until
I
heard
Marie
and
it
sort
of
jogged
my
7
mind.
8
MS.
PATRICK:
Can
we
answer
your
first
9
question
first?
10
MS.
KRUEGER:
Okay.
11
MS.
BROWN:
Yeah,
because
we're
getting
them
12
mixed.
13
MS.
KRUEGER:
So
to
narrow
it
down
my
14
question
is:
Can
we
say
reputability
and
reliability
15
of
firm
is
something
we
consider?
16
MS.
BROWN:
You
can
come
up
with
whatever
17
criteria
you
think
you
need
in
order
to
identify
a
18
contractor.
We're
just
hoping
it
will
be
fair
across
19
the
board
and
that
and
we
will
do
everything
that
we
20
can
to
allow
small
and
minority
businesses
to
21
participate
in
the
process,
that
basically
is
what
it
22
is.
23
Whatever
business
you
go
to
should
come
well
24
equipped,
ready
and
able
to
do
a
job,
and
also
­­
I
25
mean,
if
those
are
things
that
you
have
to
factor
in
­­
0031
1
MS.
KRUEGER:
That
they'll
be
there
tomorrow.
2
MS.
BROWN:
­­
and
if
that's
one
of
your
3
criteria,
yeah,
they
need
to
be
here
tomorrow
­­
but
in
4
this
day
and
time,
we
don't
know
what
businesses
­­
I
5
mean,
I
know
what
you're
saying.
6
MS.
KRUEGER:
Yeah,
you
know
what
I'm
saying.
7
MS.
BROWN:
But
the
probability
is
that
maybe
8
a
small
business
may
go
out
of
business
a
lot
sooner
9
than
some
of
the
larger.
We
don't
know.
But
you
need
10
to
identify
and
really
adequately
address
how
you
came
11
to
this
conclusion.
12
MS.
PATRICK:
We're
not
at
all
saying
­­
we
13
don't
want
anyone
to
make
bad
business
decisions.
14
That's
just
not
smart
period
for
anybody.
15
MS.
KRUEGER:
We
can't
afford
it.
16
MS.
PATRICK:
No
one
can
afford
to
actually
17
to
go
around
throwing
money
away
on
businesses
that
you
18
don't
really
believe
can
do
the
work.
But
we
also
have
19
to
realize
that
we're
not
powerless
either.
If
you
20
can't
go
with
a
small
firm
to
do
this
huge
construction
21
job
you
have,
you
do
have
the
powers
in
your
own
22
contract
provisions,
or
however
you
all
go
about
your
23
contracting,
to
say,
hey,
big
business,
we
want
you
to
24
hire
some
subcontractors.
We
want
you
to
use
some
of
25
this
money
on
a
small
business
or
disadvantaged
0032
1
business
or
a
tribally
owned
business
for
your
2
subcontracting
parts.
3
We
know
you're
going
to
be
contracting.
4
You've
got
to
get
wood
from
somewhere
or
you
need
your
5
supplies
or
your
nails.
Please
go
to
this
tribal
6
business
to
get
your
nails,
that
money
is
reported
back
7
to
us.
That's
the
type
of
things
you
can
put
in
your
8
reporting
to
us
to
show
that
those
dollars
were
spent
9
in
that
way.
10
And
so
while
you
want
to
make
a
good
business
11
decision,
you
also
want
to
be
thinking
about
how
can
I
12
also
include
a
small
disadvantaged
business?
How
can
I
13
include
a
tribally
owned
business?
Those
are
the
types
14
of
things
­­
15
MS.
BROWN:
When
you're
going
through
your
16
process
­­
I
don't
know
from
state
to
state
or
tribe
to
17
tribe,
it
could
vary
­­
but
if
you
know
what
is
­­
and
18
you
will
know
what
it
is
that
you're
contracting
out
­­
19
if
you
know
of
businesses
that
are
in
the
area
that
20
specialize
in
certain
things
that
may
come
up,
and
as
a
21
result
of
you're
going
out
to
a
larger
firm
you
can
22
give
them
that
information
when
you
give
them
the
23
contract,
and
say,
hey,
look
­­
24
And
we
can't
direct
­­
the
Federal
Government
25
can't
direct
subcontracting.
But
we
can
identify
firms
0033
1
with
certain
capabilities
that
are
available
and
out
2
there,
but
to
a
contractor
or
to
you
as
a
grantee
and
3
then
encourage
you
to
use
that
list.
But
I
can't
tell
4
you
who
on
that
list
to
go
to.
5
MS.
ADLER:
I
want
to
elaborate
on
that
6
Michael
Adler,
grant
specialist.
In
fact,
grantees
­­
7
all
of
the
conditions
and
terms
and
regulations
that
8
apply
to
grantees
apply
to
subcontractors.
There's
9
really
a
flow
down,
so
it
not
only
is
a
good
idea
to
do
10
that,
as
Jeanette
was
saying,
but
it's
actually
part
of
11
the
whole
system.
12
MS.
McPEAK:
Not
exactly
true.
This
13
particular
requirement
is
a
flow­
down
requirement,
but
14
not
all
of
the
conditions
that
are
in
your
grant
flow
15
down
to
subrecipients
or
contractors.
This
particular
16
one
does.
17
MS.
KRUEGER:
Did
you
mean
the
six
rules
of
18
fairness,
Marie,
or
what
did
you
mean?
19
MS.
PATRICK:
What
she
means
is
there
are
a
20
lot
of
conditions
that
come
with
a
grant,
a
lot
of
21
terms
and
conditions,
not
all
of
them
flow
down
but
22
this
particular
one
does.
23
MS.
KRUEGER:
And
this
one,
which
one
are
you
24
speaking
of
now?
25
MS.
PATRICK:
MBE/
WBE
requirements.
0034
1
MS.
KRUEGER:
In
general?
I
thought
you
2
meant
a
specific
­­
3
MS.
BROWN:
The
six
required
steps
flow
down.
4
MS.
KRUEGER:
Okay,
the
six
affirmative
5
steps.
6
MS.
BROWN:
Which
is
what
they
call
the
good
7
faith,
and
that's
always
been
there
­­
8
MS.
KRUEGER:
Now
­­
9
MS.
BROWN:
­­
this
isn't
new.
10
MS.
KRUEGER:
My
other
question
was
because
I
11
work
for
the
Natural
Resources
Department
and
we
do
12
science
projects
and
we
get
scientific
supplies
very,
13
very
particular
to
extremely
intricate
processes
that
14
are
not
developed
by
us,
that
we
get
from
other
15
agencies,
and
if
you
switch
what
we
do,
we
wouldn't
16
necessarily
be
following
the
agency's
protocol.
17
I'm
concerned
about
getting
supplies
under
18
this
and
how
can
I
justify
using
for
example
the
same
19
supplies
that
NOAH
uses
so
that
we
get
the
same
20
scientific
results.
21
MS.
BROWN:
The
key
to
all
of
this
is
22
documentation.
If
you
have
a
standard
that
you
have
to
23
meet
and
you
have
to
use
these
supplies
and
this
is
the
24
only
source,
or
one
of
a
few
and
all
of
them
are
large,
25
document
that
in
your
file
to
say
this
is
the
only
0035
1
source
that
is
available
so
that
we
can
get
the
same
2
standard
or
quality
of
testing
that's
needed
by
the
3
other
agencies,
that's
fine.
4
MS.
KRUEGER:
Okay.
You're
making
it
very
5
black
and
white
because
you're
saying
it
must
be
used.
6
What
just
happened
in
our
case
was
that
there's
7
probably
some
competitors
out
there,
but
we
wanted
­­
8
we're
very
inexperienced
and
we
wanted
to
make
certain
9
we
could
exactly
duplicate
the
NOAH
results,
and
so
we
10
opted
to
match
exactly
what
they
were
using
so
we
11
couldn't
attribute
a
variance
to
what
we
were
using.
12
Although
there
may
be
some
competitors
out
13
there,
we
felt
that
because
we're
such
novices
we
had
14
to
eliminate
what
could
mess
things
up.
So
it
wasn't
15
that
they
said
you
absolutely
must
use
this,
but
we
16
didn't
want
to
switch
gears
and
use
another
brand.
17
MS.
PATRICK:
I
just
want
to
make
it
really,
18
really
clear
that
this
part
of
the
program
is
not
19
requiring
you
to
or
making
you
go
with
a
small,
20
disadvantaged
business.
We're
asking
you
to
look
and
21
see
who's
available,
who
can
potentially
do
the
work.
22
And
if
within
your
particular
contract
requirements
and
23
within
you
guidelines
you
look
at
this
firm
and
they
24
say,
okay,
wait.
They
say
they
can
meet
these
specs.
25
They
say
they
can
do
this.
0036
1
My
thing
is
you
wouldn't
know
if
they
were
2
there
if
you
didn't
ask
or
if
you
didn't
go
out
and
3
look.
A
lot
of
times
it
is
very
easy
to
stay
with
who
4
you're
comfortable
with,
or
who
the
big
guy
is,
a
known
5
name.
But
sometimes,
every
so
often
you
will
find
a
6
small,
disadvantage
business
who
can
do
that
work.
And
7
we're
saying
­­
what
this
program
is
requiring
you
to
8
do
is
to
make
the
look,
make
the
effort
to
see
who
is
9
there.
10
Now,
if
you
go
out
and
look
and
if
you
say
we
11
can't
find
anybody,
or
you
say
these
people
they
do
12
some
of
the
work
but
they
can't
meet
these
requirements
13
that
we
need
to
match
NOAH,
that's
fine.
All
we're
14
saying
is,
document
your
process.
Write
down
ans
say
15
we
looked
at
these
five
firms.
This
firm
couldn't
do
16
it,
this
one
couldn't
do
it.
The
price
was
too
much.
17
This
is
who
we
decided
on.
We
just
need
to
now
that
18
the
you
looked.
19
MS.
KRUEGER:
Ancillary
to
that,
we
don't
20
have
the
resources
to
have
a
person
dedicated
to
21
looking
up
every
business
that
exists.
Does
EPA
have
a
22
list?
23
MS.
PATRICK:
First
of
all,
we're
not
asking
24
for
every
business
that
exists,
just
the
ones
that
are
25
in
your
area.
We're
not
saying
across
the
country.
I
0037
1
just
want
to
point
that
out.
We
don't
want
anybody
2
going
across
the
entire
United
States
looking
for
3
someone.
4
In
your
area,
your
geographic
area
who's
5
available
to
do
it.
6
MS.
KRUEGER:
Do
you
have
a
list?
7
MS.
PATRICK:
We
do
have
lists
of
small,
8
disadvantaged
businesses
who
do
particular
work
in
9
different
areas.
You
can
also
go
to
Pronet,
which
is
10
on
the
Internet
which
is
an
SBA
site.
I
think
it's
11
www.
pronet.
gov.
12
MS.
BROWN:
Or
just
got
to
www.
sba.
gov.
13
MR.
PATRICK:
There's
a
link
there
to
14
Pronet
­­
15
MS.
BROWN:
There's
a
link
to
Pronet.
16
MS.
PATRICK:
­­
which
is
a
data
link
to
17
businesses.
Also,
see
your
handy
dandy
MBE/
WBE
18
coordinator.
Marie
knows
everything.
She
can
tell
you
19
all
kinds
of
stuff.
20
MS.
McPEAK:
Also
the
Washington
State
21
Department
of
Small
and
Disadvantaged
Businesses
has
a
22
directory
of
businesses
in
the
area
that
have
been
23
certified.
The
Oregon
Department
of
Environmental
24
Quality,
they
utilize
­­
there's
the
Oregon
Department
25
of
Small
and
Disadvantaged
Businesses.
They
also
0038
1
publish
a
directory
of
certified
businesses
that
can
be
2
used.
3
So
Washington
and
Oregon
do
have
resources
4
available
for
certified
businesses,
and
they
do
have
­­
5
their
directors
are
both
on
a
website,
and
they
are
in
6
hard
copy
that
you
can
get.
So
if
you
need
to
know
7
like
a
supplier
for
maybe
paper
or
something
like
that
8
you
can
­­
you
can
look
at
this
directory
and
identify
9
that
particular
business
in
the
areas
that
have
the
10
supplies
that
you
need,
so
there
are
lists
in
at
least
11
to
Washington
and
Oregon.
12
MS.
BROWN:
Some
of
the
Chambers
of
Commerce
13
from
the
various
areas
also
have
listings.
It
varies
14
from
state
to
state,
area
to
area,
but
there
are
a
15
number
of
ways
to
identify
or
define
minority
and
woman
16
owned
businesses.
Some
states
even
have
their
own
17
certified
program.
I
know
that's
not
out
here
anymore.
18
MS.
McPEAK:
Just
Washington
and
Oregon.
19
MS.
BROWN:
Washington
and
Oregon
does,
but
20
other
states
do
that
as
well
so
that's
a
possibility.
21
MS.
SIMEON:
Monica
Simeon,
Spokane
Tribe.
I
22
would
just
like
to
add
also
in
your
area,
especially
23
larger
metropolitan
areas,
there's
a
lot
of
minority
­­
24
well,
you
know,
not
even
large
metropolitan
areas
­­
25
like
in
Spokane
there's
a
AAHANA
Business
Association.
0039
1
There
are
a
lot
of
minority
business
associations
that
2
are
popping
up
around
the
country
that
do
have
3
directories.
4
You
know,
I
guess
my
point
is
there
are
­­
5
it's
going
to
take
a
little
bit
of
digging
but
there
6
are
plenty
of
resources
out
there
once
you
get
7
connected
to
SBA
or
your
local
chamber.
They
can
point
8
you
in
a
lot
of
right
directions.
9
MS.
BROWN:
Thank
you.
Now
we're
going
to
10
talk
about
the
contract
administration
provisions.
11
These
are
the
proposed
changes.
There's
a
question.
12
Hold
on,
and
let
me
get
your
name.
Can
you
tell
me
13
your
name,
where
you're
from
and
then
give
us
your
14
question
15
MS.
WARREN:
Hi,
my
name
is
Pat
Warren
I'm
16
from
the
Chilcott
Indian
Village
and
it's
in
Southeast
17
Alaska.
And
my
question
is
does
the
small
18
disadvantaged
business
have
to
have
­­
like
do
you
have
19
to
document
certification
of
that
business?
Like
if
20
you
put
down
yes
we
went
to
this
or
we
used
this
21
business,
do
you
have
to
prove
by
a
documentation
22
number
that
they
are
a
disadvantaged
business?
23
MS.
BROWN:
You
came
in
and
I
think
we
had
24
gone
over
the
certification
requirements,
and
this
is
25
with
the
proposed
rule.
This
is
not
in
effect
now,
but
0040
1
once
the
rules
becomes
final
and
what
we
have
on
the
2
table
is,
businesses
­­
we're
requiring
or
saying
that
3
they
should
be
certified
hopefully,
preferably,
by
4
another
entity.
5
We
are
saying,
also,
that
whatever
entity
6
they
use,
their
criteria
has
to
match
ours.
So
we
7
would
need
to
know
what
that
criteria
was
that
they
8
were
certified
by.
Right
now
we
self­
certify.
You
9
just
check
the
box,
no
questions
asked.
Once
this
rule
10
goes
into
effect
there's
more
to
it
than
that.
And
so
11
we
would
need
to
take
a
look
at
the
criteria
that
was
12
used
by
this
certifying
entity.
13
MS.
PATRICK:
From
a
recipient's
perspective
14
in
order
for
­­
I'm
talking
loud
enough.
Can
you
hear
15
me
Mr.
Taper?
From
a
recipient's
perspective
when
you
16
go
out
and
you
do
your
six
good
faith
efforts
and
you
17
decide
on
the
firm
you
want
to
go
with
­­
let's
say
you
18
decide
on
a
disadvantaged
business
­­
once
this
rule
19
goes
into
effect
that
business
will
have
to
be
20
certified
in
order
to
count,
not
that
you
can't
use
21
them
if
they're
not
certified.
If
you
choose
to
use
22
them
and
they're
not
certified,
that's
fine.
But
in
23
terms
of
reporting
back
to
us
the
ones
that
will
count
24
will
be
the
ones
that
are
certified.
So
I
need
to
make
25
that
very,
very
clear
in
terms
of
numbers,
okay.
0041
1
MS.
KRUEGER:
Is
this
going
to
apply
to
2
travel
or
is
our
tribe
free
to
pick
the
airline
or
bus
3
whatever
that
gives
the
best
service
in
terms
of
our
4
costs.
5
MR.
BROWN:
Travel
for
whom?
6
MS.
KRUEGER:
The
recipient
of
the
money.
7
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
To
the
extent
that
­­
8
okay.
Let
me
­­
let's
say
you
want
to
hire
a
bus
9
company.
10
MS.
KRUEGER:
No.
No.
11
MS.
PATRICK:
Are
you
talking
about
travel
12
for
someone
who
is
doing
a
service
for
you?
13
MS.
KRUEGER:
Yes.
No.
I'm
talking
about
a
14
grant
recipient.
I'm
a
grant
recipient,
and
I
have
to
15
travel
as
part
of
my
grant.
Does
this
apply
to
me
as
16
to
what
services
I
use
to
get
me
from
point
A
to
point
17
B?
Do
I
have
to
use
a
disadvantaged
business
airline?
18
Do
I
have
to
use
a
disadvantaged
business
bus
service?
19
I'm
not
sure
what
you're
requiring.
20
MS.
BROWN:
You
don't
have
to
use
anybody.
I
21
mean,
the
rule
is,
you
don't
have
­­
look,
we're
not
22
saying
that
you
can't
go
buy
from
anybody
else,
if
23
you're
not
minority
or
a
small
woman
owned.
We're
not
24
saying
that.
25
We
are
saying
that
we
would
hope
that
you
0042
1
would
search
to
see
if
they
exist,
and
if
they
do
and
2
you
can
use
them,
you
use
them,
so
that
we
can
insure
3
that
everybody
is
able
to
participate
in
this
process
4
that
is
open
to
minorities
as
well
nonminorities.
5
MS.
PATRICK:
When
you
travel,
because
travel
6
­­
providing
travel
or
whatever
is
a
service.
And
you
7
travel
under
your
grant
as
a
direct
recipient?
8
Technically,
the
good
faith
efforts
do
apply.
However,
9
we
would
not
be
surprised
if
you
came
back
to
us
and
10
said,
okay,
I'm
trying
to
go
from
here
to
Washington
DC
11
I
doubt
you're
going
to
find
a
minority
or
small
12
business
is
going
to
take
you,
you
know,
by
air
from
13
here
to
Washington
DC.
14
And
like
you
mentioned
before,
I'm
not
sure
15
that
­­
to
that
extent
we're
trying
not
to
be
16
outrageous
or
ridiculous
with
this.
If
you
look
­­
if
17
you
go
through
the
process
or
whatever.
Technically,
18
it
does
apply.
But
it's
not
something
that
­­
19
particularly
travel
of
that
magnitude
­­
it's
just
not
20
realistic
that
you're
going
to
find
an
MBE/
WBE
who's
21
going
to
do
cross
country
flights.
22
MS.
McPEAK:
One
caveat
to
that
is
in
Alaska
23
they
do
use
a
lot
of
charter
aircraft,
and
so
the
24
charter
aircraft
in
a
lot
of
cases
are
small
minority
25
businesses.
And
so
that
is
a
help
when
you're
looking
0043
1
for
minority
businesses
in
Alaska,
because
a
lot
of
the
2
charter
services
that
you
already
use
are
small,
3
minority
businesses.
And
so
that
would
be
counted
for
4
participation
in
this
program.
5
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
Marina
Turningrobe,
Spokane
6
Tribe.
Forgive
me
if
I'm
not
following
properly.
I
7
know
no
question
is
a
dumb
question.
When
you
use
the
8
word
"
count",
it
doesn't
count,
do
you
have
to
have
so
9
many
that
do
count?
Are
we
counting
points?
10
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
­­
that's
something
we
11
didn't
go
in
depth
into.
When
we
say
counting
we're
12
referring
to
reporting,
and
when
you
report
back
how
13
you
spent
your
dollars
and
how
much
­­
how
many
of
14
those
dollars
went
to
MBE,
WBEs
or
in
the
future
DBEs,
15
we
need
to
know.
And
so
when
we
say
the
word
"
count"
16
that's
what
we're
referring
to,
the
reporting
part.
17
And
also
since
you
guys
­­
if
the
rule
goes
18
through
as
is,
when
you
negotiate
goals
­­
and
let
me
19
point
out,
it
is
a
goal.
It
is
an
objective.
It
is
20
not
a
requirement.
It
is
a
goal,
so
let's
say
your
21
goal
for
equipment
under
a
particular
grant
that
you
22
receive
is
8
percent,
okay,
or
10
or
15
percent.
23
So
what
you're
saying
is
15
percent
of
the
24
dollars,
or
whatever,
under
that
particular
grant
for
25
services
we're
going
to
try
to
give
15
percent
of
that
0044
1
money
to
a
small,
disadvantaged
business.
When
you
go
2
out
and
you
procure
the
services
and
say
you
use
a
DBE
3
or
a
particular
service,
then
when
you
report
back,
4
that
counts
towards
your
goal,
towards
you're
meeting
5
that
percentage
of
your
goal.
6
Please
understand
it
is
a
goal.
It
is
not
a
7
requirement.
If
you
do
not
meet
your
goal,
we're
not
8
going
to
come
after
you.
And
so
if
you
­­
we
want
you
9
to
try
to
meet
your
goal,
which
is
why
we
have
the
six
10
good
faith
efforts
or
six
affirmative
steps
so
that
you
11
can
go
out
and
seek
the
businesses.
12
And
if
you
document
what
you
did
to
find
13
these
DBEs,
then
if
you
don't
meet
your
goal,
we
can
14
look
at
that
documentation
and
say,
okay,
they
tried.
15
This
is
what
the
result
was
of
that,
so
that
document
16
also
helps
you
as
well
as
us.
17
MS.
BROWN:
However,
as
Kimberly
said,
we
18
don't
come
after
you.
We
do
look
at
the
goals
and
your
19
accomplishments
towards
those
goals.
If
we
see
over
a
20
period
of
time
­­
if
your
goal
in
a
category
is
8
or
15
21
percent
and
you
consistently
come
in
well
under
that,
22
we
will
question
what's
going
on,
and
we
may
have
to
23
say
maybe
we
need
to
go
back
and
look
at
how
you
came
24
up
with
your
availability
analysis
in
establishing
that
25
initial
goal.
0045
1
So
it's
not
like
we
don't
look
at
it
at
all.
2
We
do.
We
will
­­
and
we
may
have
to
come
back
3
depending
on
what
we
see
in
terms
of
what
you're
4
actually
able
to
accomplish.
But
with
the
5
documentation
that
you
provide
to
support
the
decisions
6
that
you
make
on
why
you
could
or
could
not
­­
because
7
they
could
be
there,
but
they
may
not
­­
they
may
not
8
be
able
to
do
it.
9
So
there
are
a
lot
of
factors
that
go
into
10
this
on
why
maybe
you
weren't
able
to
reach
your
goal.
11
The
key
in
all
of
this
is
documenting
your
file,
in
12
terms
of
what
you're
doing
with
the
money.
13
MS.
ADLER:
Michael
Adler,
EPA.
Is
it
not
14
true
that,
in
fact,
the
purpose
of
the
executive
order
15
behind
this
is
to
aid
and
assist
disadvantaged
16
businesses?
17
MS.
BROWN:
Right.
18
MS.
ADLER:
And
across
the
nation
to
all
19
government
grantees
as
a
policy
matter
it's
a
good
20
social
idea
that
the
Federal
Government
is
putting
21
forth.
This
is
not
a
requirement
of
your
grant
in
the
22
sense
that
you're
required
to
file
reports,
performance
23
reports
or
a
financial
status
reports?
It's
not
a
24
requirement
like
that.
It's
a
requirement
to
consider
25
these
issues
to
do
the
best
you
can
and
Federal
­­
the
0046
1
reason
for
the
reporting
is
these
ladies
and
plenty
of
2
people
in
Washington
and
across
the
nation
want
to
know
3
how
we're
doing.
4
And
the
people
they
can
reach
are
the
Federal
5
grantees
because
they
can
­­
we
can
ask
our
grantees
to
6
do
it.
But
it
isn't
­­
nothing
will
happen
to
your
7
grant
if
you
end
up,
no,
you
didn't
meet
any
of
your
8
goals.
Is
that
clear?
9
I
don't
know
what
the
new
step
is
going
to
10
be.
In
fact,
it
will
be
a
way
to
advance
the
goals
and
11
everyone
is
required
to
look
at
it
and
document
what
12
they're
doing.
But
in
fact,
if
you
can't
do
it
or
it
13
doesn't
make
good
business
sense
or
whatever
­­
14
MS.
BROWN:
As
long
as
it's
documented
­­
the
15
key,
again,
is
documentation.
Now,
this
wasn't
one
of
16
the
regions
where
we
got
started.
About
two
years
go
17
we
had
not
negotiated
the
fair
share
goals,
and
we
were
18
­­
some
regions
were
a
lot
slower
than
others.
19
We
did
take
a
look
at
holding
procurement
20
dollars
under
the
grant.
You
got
all
of
your
other
21
money
but
if
you
had
identified
procurement
dollars
­­
22
which
covers
those
four
categories:
Equipment,
23
construction,
services
or
supplies
­­
we
did
take
a
24
position
in
another
region
that
we
would
hold
the
25
procurement
dollars
until
they
got
on
board
with
the
0047
1
negotiations.
2
So
that's
a
possibility.
You
have
to
3
recognize
that
we
can
do
that.
We
didn't
­­
it
doesn't
4
take
them
long
to
get
onboard
once
we
told
hold
them
­­
5
we
would
hold
back
the
procurement
dollars,
and
that
6
would
be
something
that
we
would
work
out
from
7
headquarters
with
the
regions
in
terms
of
what
we
would
8
do.
But
that
is
definitely
a
scenario
that
could
9
possibly
happen.
10
MS.
McPEAK:
And
it
did
happen.
11
MS.
BROWN:
It
did
happen
in
Region
X.
12
MS.
PATRICK:
We
do
have
some
remedies
at
our
13
disposal
that
we
can
use,
but
we
understand
that's
a
14
huge
hammer
to
pull
out,
and
we
don't
pull
it
out
15
willy­
nilly
just
because
it's
something
we
want
to
do.
16
It's
usually
an
extreme
case
or
case
where
we
really
17
feel
that
it's
necessary.
It's
not
something
we
just
18
do
all
the
time,
so
please
understand
that.
We're
not
19
in
the
business
of
just
cutting
people
off
just
because
20
we
like
to
cut
folk
off,
there's
a
real
reason
if
we
21
take
an
action
that
particularly
extreme.
22
One
thing
that
is
really
important
as
a
23
requirement
is
reporting.
I
keep
coming
back
to
that.
24
Reporting
is
a
requirement
under
your
grant,
just
like
25
any
other
term
and
condition.
If
you
do
not
turn
in
0048
1
your
report,
we've
got
a
huge
problem
with
that.
2
Because
we
really,
really
find
just
like
any
other,
any
3
­­
people
are
very
careful.
Recipients
are
careful
4
about
making
sure
other
reports
are
turned
in.
5
But
somehow
when
it
comes
down
to
turning
in
6
that
MBE/
WBE
report
they're
like
(
indicating).
We
7
really,
really
need
those
reports
back.
Because
the
8
Federal
Government
comes
looking
and
says,
okay,
EPA,
9
how
are
you
handling
your
programs?
We
need
to
be
able
10
to
justify
a
lot
of
things.
Those
reports
come
into
11
play
in
helping
with
that.
12
And
also
in
terms
of
making
sure
that
we
are
13
meeting
guidelines
imposed
by
Adarand,
we
need
to
be
14
able
to
backup
the
reason,
you
know,
how
people
are
15
spending
this
money
and
who
you're
going
to
in
terms
of
16
a
small
­­
in
terms
of
a
disadvantaged
business.
17
MS.
BROWN:
Or
a
socially,
economically
18
disadvantaged
business.
What
you
need
to
understand
as
19
a
grant
recipient
is,
if
a
contractor
decides
to
20
challenge
a
decision
that
you
made,
as
you
decided
not
21
to
use
them
or
that
they
were
out,
you
have
to
defend
22
what
you
did.
We
will
come
and
ask:
What
did
you
do?
23
Because
not
only
will
you
be
hauled
into
court,
we
24
probably
will
be
too.
And
we
won't
know
what
you
did
25
if
you
don't
tell
us
and
we
don't
have
the
reports.
0049
1
And
while
we
have
not
had
any
major
2
challenges
to
the
program
from
that
perspective,
that's
3
basically
what
happened
out
of
the
state
of
Colorado.
4
It
was
a
state
program
and
that's
how
we
got
the
5
Adarand
decision.
There
was
a
challenge
to
what
they
6
did
at
the
state
level
that
changed
the
fabric
of
the
7
country
in
terms
of
how
we
would
use
Federal
monies.
8
And
so
once
you
sign
up
to
get
money
from
EPA
9
or
any
other
agency,
you
need
to
document
how
you
spend
10
it.
You
can't
sign
up
for
the
money,
take
it
and
go
11
away.
There's
some
guidelines,
some
policies,
12
procedures
that
come
and
strings
that
are
attached
to
13
this
money.
We
can't
just
turn
our
backs
and
go
away.
14
So
just
as
you're
making
those
kinds
of
decisions,
they
15
need
to
be
documented.
Because
should
there
be
a
16
challenge,
you
have
to
defend
what
you
did.
17
A
lot
of
cases
like
this,
especially
in
this
18
area,
are
now
being
taken
to
court.
And
so
we
really
19
need
­­
and
that's
where
we
were
lax
in
years
past.
We
20
didn't
look
at
the
documentation,
and
that's
not
just
21
with
the
tribes,
the
states,
the
grantees.
We
just
22
kind
of
­­
we
were
lax.
We
can't
afford
to
do
that
any
23
more.
Nor
can
you,
because
these
kind
of
cases
are
24
very
expensive,
and
we
don't
cover
that
if
you
get
25
hauled
into
court.
0050
1
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
Marina
Turningrobe,
Spokane
2
Tribe.
From
the
entrepreneur's
perspective
­­
let's
3
assume
I'm
an
entrepreneur.
Does
the
entrepreneur
know
4
that
­­
let's
say
I'm
a
contractor,
and
I
went
to
the
5
Spokane
Tribe
to
bid
on
a
big
project
that's
taking
6
place,
was
not
­­
my
bid
was
not
accepted.
7
How
does
the
entrepreneur
­­
I'm
not
talking
8
about
the
government
­­
me
as
an
entrepeneur
know
how
9
­­
is
there
a
resource
that
I
can
go
to,
or
is
there
10
some
way
that
an
entrepreneur
can
say,
you
know,
for
11
some
reason
I
think
I
should
have
got
that
bid?
Where
12
do
they
get
guidance
from?
Would
they
have
to
go
to
13
SBA
or
where
would
they
get
their
information
to
know,
14
I'm
going
to
challenge
this?
15
MS.
PATRICK:
At
the
state
level
you
would
16
have
to
go
to
whoever
your
state
procurement
offices
17
is,
whoever
handles
procurements
for
that
particular
18
state.
On
the
tribal
level,
for
your
­­
you
have
to
go
19
to
whomever
handles
the
procurement
for
the
tribe.
20
If
they
have
a
system
set
up
whereby
someone
21
has
bid
or
a
contractor
can
challenge
a
particular
22
decision,
then
it
goes
through
whatever
your
23
administrative
processes
is.
24
Now,
in
terms
of
on
the
Federal
level
I
can
25
explain
how
it
happened
in
Adarand,
it's
quite
simple.
0051
1
The
way
the
Federal
Government
used
to
work,
or
DOT's
2
program
used
to
work,
it
was
very
open,
the
fact
that
3
there
were
extra
considerations
given
for
small,
and
4
disadvantages
businesses.
It
was
down
to
a
preference
5
type
of
system
just
because
they
were
a
small
6
disadvantage
business,
just
because
of
the
status.
7
And
so
the
contractor
knew
on
its
face
the
8
reason
why
he
didn't
get
the
bid.
Even
thought
he
was
9
the
lower
bidder,
because
that
preference
was
attached
10
for
using
the
small
business,
that's
who
the
state
went
11
with.
That's
why
they
sued
in
the
Adarand
decision,
12
because
it
was
open
knowledge
that
the
only
reason
why
13
this
happened
was
because
this
person
was
14
disadvantaged.
15
Mr.
Adarand
said
that's
not
fair
to
me
16
because
I
submitted
the
low
bid.
So
why
is
it
that
17
only
because
of
this
person's
disadvantage
status
that
18
they
got
the
bid.
So
that's
how
that
came
about.
In
19
other
areas
as
a
contractor,
any
time
you
smell
20
something
that
isn't
quite
right
in
a
contracting
21
practice,
there
is
some
type
of
administrative
22
procedure
somewhere,
whether
it's
at
the
tribal
level,
23
state
level
or
Federal
level
where
you
can
elevate
the
24
challenge,
what
happened
with
the
contract.
And
those
25
processes
are
different
on
each
level,
so
I
really
0052
1
can't
say
exactly
where
you
need
to
go
to.
It
depends
2
on
the
type
of
contract
it
was
and
who
you
were
working
3
with.
4
MS.
BROWN:
The
other
thing
that
I'll
add
5
though
is
if
you
as
a
contractor
felt
like
something
6
was
wrong
and
you
knew
and
you
went
to
that
entity
and
7
they
didn't
tell
you,
if
you
knew
that
they
­­
part
of
8
that
money
came
from
a
Federal
agency,
people
have
come
9
to
us
and
complained
and
then
we
have
to
take
a
look
at
10
it.
It
doesn't
necessarily
relieve
you
as
that
11
grantee,
that
entity,
because
we
could
come
back
and
12
say
what
did
you
do.
13
MS.
McPEAK:
The
one
thing
that
you
need
to
14
know
is
that
in
every
bid
contract,
whether
the
bid
15
documents
that
go
out
­­
the
entity
that
is
putting
out
16
those
bids
have
to
have
a
bid
protest
procedure
that
is
17
within
those
documents.
You
have
to
go
through
the
bid
18
protest
procedures
that
are
outlined
there.
Usually
it
19
will
go
to
whoever
had
the
bids
out.
They
will
give
a
20
ruling.
21
If
they
do
not
successfully
identify
or
22
you're
not
happy
with
that
decision,
then
you
can
23
elevate
the
protest
to
like
the
entity
that
gives
them
24
the
money
to
do
this
work.
But
you
can't
automatically
25
protest
to
the
higher
agency
at
first.
You
do
have
to
0053
1
follow
the
bid
procedures
that,
for
bid
protests
that
2
are
in
the
bid
documents,
and
every
bid
document
has
to
3
contain
those
bid
protests
procedures.
4
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
With
all
of
these
goals
put
5
in
place
you
just
want
to
make
sure
that
the
6
entrepeneur
is
getting
­­
I
mean
so
amny
actions
are
7
being
put
into
place
you
want
to
make
sure
that
the
8
small
business
owner
is
benefiting
also
and
not
just
­­
9
also
knowing
that
they
do
­­
and
again,
looking
at
it
10
as
an
entrepeneur,
knowing
that
they
do
have
a
chance
11
at
those
bids
and
knowing
if
they
don't
receive
those
12
bids
they
do
have
recourse,
it's
not
just
­­
it's
the
13
tribal
government
and
I
can't
do
anything
about
it.
14
MS.
PATRICK:
There's
always
a
recourse.
15
MS.
BROWN:
Okay.
So
we'll
go
back
to
the
16
contract,
back
to
the
contract
administration
17
provisions.
That
a
recipient
must
be
notified
in
18
writing
by
its
prime
contractor
prior
to
any
­­
and
19
this
is
key.
This
is
new
­­
prior
to
any
termination
20
of
a
DBE
subcontractor.
21
If
you
go
out
and
you
get
a
contractor
to
do
22
the
work
and
he
has
a
DBE
doing
some
of
the
work
as
a
23
subcontractor.
He
decides
he
doesn't
want
to
use
him
24
anymore,
he
has
to
give
them
written
notification
that
25
he's
terminating
that
contract.
0054
1
MS.
PATRICK:
The
recipient?
2
MS.
BROWN:
The
recipient
has
to
give
­­
the
3
contractor
has
to
give
you,
as
the
recipient,
4
notification.
5
MS.
PATRICK:
And
that
provision
exists
6
because
we
have
problems
a
lot
of
times
with
prime
7
contractors
saying
oh,
yeah,
we
have
this
list
of
DBEs
8
we're
going
to
use
to
do
a
lot
of
subcontracting.
Once
9
the
get
the
award,
they
don't
use
any
of
them.
They
10
terminate
all
of
them
and
continue
to
go
with
larger
11
business
and
where
they
wanted
to
begin
with.
So
we're
12
trying
to
prevent
the
bait
and
switch
that
sometimes
13
occurs
after
the
contract
is
actually
awarded.
14
So
what
we're
requiring
if
that
prime,
after
15
the
contract
is
awarded,
terminates
a
DBE
they
have
to
16
notify
the
recipient.
And
what
that
does
that
puts
you
17
on
notice
to
perhaps
ask:
Why
are
you
terminating
18
these
people?
What
has
happened?
And
so
it
sort
of
19
puts
you
on
alert
to
sort
of
look
and
say
this
is
a
20
bait
and
switch
type
of
situation
or
this
is
a
21
legitimate
type
of
termination,
because
those
also
22
occur
too.
That's
why
that's
in
the
rule.
That's
a
23
new
provision.
24
No.
2
under
contract
administration
provision
25
says
when
a
DBE
subcontractor
fails
to
complete
its
0055
1
work
under
the
subcontract
for
any
reason,
the
2
recipient
must
require
the
prime
contractor
to
make
3
good
faith
efforts
in
hiring
another
subcontractor.
4
What
that's
saying
is,
if
you've
gone
out
and
5
gotten
company
X,
who
is
your
prime,
and
that
prime
has
6
identified
subcontractors
they're
going
to
use
as
a
7
DBE.
Now
let's
say
the
DBE
subcontractor
for
some
8
reason
fails.
They
can't
get
the
job
done,
and
the
9
prime
is
like,
okay,
well,
I
have
to
go
back
out
and
10
find
another
sub.
11
We're
saying
when
that
prime
goes
back
out
to
12
find
another
subcontractor,
that
that
prime
contractor
13
go
back
through
the
back
six
affirmative
steps
yet
14
again
to
see
if
there's
another
DBE
that
can
do
the
15
job.
So
it's
just
sort
of
a
reawakening
of
the
six
16
affirmative
steps
yet
again
if
they
have
to
go
out
and
17
hire
another
sub.
18
MS.
BROWN:
The
next
one
is
that
a
recipient
19
must
require
its
prime
contractor
to
make
good
faith
20
efforts
even
if
the
fair
share
objectives
are
met.
21
What
we
see
a
lot
of
times
is
once
they've
made
the
­­
22
met
the
objectives,
they
stop
the
six
good
faith
23
efforts.
24
And
we're
saying
it's
just
a
continuum.
You
25
don't
stop.
You
just
keep
going.
0056
1
MS.
PATRICK:
And
let
me
­­
let
me
clarify
2
that
when
we
say
fair
share
objectives
it's
the
same
3
thing
as
fair
share
goals.
We
use
the
term
"
goal"
and
4
"
objective"
interchangeably.
So
I
want
to
make
that
5
really,
really
clear.
6
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
And
so
they've
made
their
7
15
percent
­­
8
MS.
PATRICK:
Right.
A
lot
of
people
they'll
9
say
we're
done,
right.
10
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
We
are
back
­­
11
MS.
PATRICK:
­­
to
what
we
were
doing
before
12
because
we've
made
our
15
percent,
Exactly.
So
we
want
13
to
make
sure
that
even
though
you've
met
your
15
14
percent
or
10
percent
or
whatever
it
ends
up
being,
15
whatever
your
goals
are,
that
you
don't
stop
there
and
16
that
you
continue
to
do
the
six
good
faith
efforts.
17
I
mean,
great,
it's
always
great
to
exceed
a
18
goal.
It's
always
great
to
do
better
than
you
thought
19
you
were
going
to
do.
And
so
that's
what
that
20
provision
is
about.
21
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
Can
I
ask
another
question?
22
MS.
PATRICK:
Sure.
23
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
Assume
that
I'm
in
a
24
position
in
my
tribal
government
­­
construction,
I'm
25
kind
of
following
construction,
and
I'm
working
with
0057
1
the
prime
contractor.
And
he's
­­
we
have
negotiated
2
goals
and
it's
at,
I
don't
know,
we
set
it
low
at
15
3
percent
or
5
percent.
How
­­
as
a
tribal
government
4
you
would
think
that
the
tribal
government
official
5
would
want
to
foster
this
program
and
make
sure
that
6
there
maybe
are
some
tribal
enterprises
that
can
supply
7
and
benefit.
8
So
how
does
a
tribal
government
official
­­
9
how
can
we
­­
wanting
to
do
its
best
for
the
people,
10
tribal
members
that
can
supply,
without
setting
it
too
11
high.
I
mean,
could
I
­­
could
I
say,
okay,
we're
12
going
to
try
and
meet
it
at
60
percent,
that
maybe
a
13
high
percentage.
Even
though
we
don't
come
in
as
a
14
tribal
official,
I
want
to
set
it
high.
The
prime
15
won't
go,
we
met
it
at
5
percent
and
that's
it,
and
16
won't
go
back
to
our
buddies?
17
Looking
at
it
in
the
perspective
of
a
tribal
18
official,
what
would
be
the
best
way
to
negotiate
goals
19
to
make
sure
that
I'm
being
able
to
have
some
tribal
20
entrepreneurs
that
can
meet
this,
not
just
set
it
at
a
21
low
amount
and
have
the
prime
go
with
somebody
else
22
after?
23
MS.
BROWN:
When
we
talk
about
negotiating
24
goals
that
will
be
between
EPA
and
the
tribal
25
government,
and
we
look
at
what
the
availability
is
and
0058
1
we
do
something
­­
if
you
don't
have
a
disparity
study
2
­­
some
of
the
states
and
local
jurisdictions
have
a
3
disparity
study
that
take
into
account
the
buying
4
practices
in
a
geographic
area.
5
Absence
of
that,
if
you
don't
have
one,
you
6
look
at
an
availability
analysis
to
see
what
the
market
7
area
will
bear
in
terms
of
what
we're
already
doing,
8
and
so
those
are
the
kinds
of
things
that
we
take
into
9
account
and
under
consideration
when
we
come
up
with
10
the
goal.
11
While
we
know
and
recognize
we
would
like
for
12
it
to
be
a
lot
higher,
you've
got
to
be
careful
in
13
setting
an
unrealistic
goal,
because
if
there's
a
14
challenge
to
it
that's
what's
dragged
into
the
court.
15
So
we
wanted
to
be
as
realistic
as
possible
based
on
16
what
the
current
marked
is,
what
­­
where
you
go.
Are
17
those
businesses
there?
Is
that
what
you
would
18
normally
do
in
terms
of
your
general
practices
is
going
19
to
these
businesses
anyway?
20
MS.
PATRICK:
Now
a
little
bit
more
along
21
thes
lines
is
that
understood
as
part
of
what
you're
22
saying?
Yes,
the
goals
that
we're
talking
about
is
23
between
EPA
and
the
direct
recipient.
Now,
if
on
the
24
other
side
of
that
the
tribal
government
has
said,
25
okay,
we
have
this
goal
with
EPA.
Let's
say
the
goal
0059
1
is
at
40
percent.
If
the
tribal
wants
to
say
to
its
2
prime
contractor
­­
3
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
Keep
them
in
check
to
make
4
sure
my
tribal
members
are
­­
5
MS.
PATRICK:
From
that
internal
perspective
6
what
you
choose
to
do
and
the
requirements
you
impose
7
on
the
prime
contractor
are
between
you
and
that
prime
8
contractor.
And
so
as
a
tribal
government
if
you
want
9
to
say
our
goal
with
EPA
is
40
percent
and
it's
based
10
on
its
availability
analysis,
that's
great,
that's
11
between
EPA
and
you.
12
Now,
on
the
other
side
of
that
veil
if
your
13
tribal
government
wants
to
say,
look,
our
practice
is,
14
within
this
tribal
government
that
we're
going
for
60
15
percent
in
terms
of
what
we
do
with
our
prime
16
contractors,
you're
well
within
your
rights
to
do
17
that.
That
doesn't
affect
your
EPA
goal
with
what
18
we're
doing.
19
Now,
if
on
the
other
side
of
that
you
want
to
20
be
proactive
about
making
sure
we
are
using
tribally
21
owned
businesses
or
really
maximizing
tribal
22
preference,
if
you
have
those
types
of
rules
set
up
in
23
your
contracting
thing,
that
is
totally
up
to
the
24
tribal
government
on
how
they
want
to
handle
that.
25
If
you
want
to
impose
perhaps
incentives
for
0060
1
your
primes
to
use
tribally
owned
businesses
as
2
subcontractors,
you
can
do
that,
that
is
your
internal
3
contracting
requirement,
which
you
can
do.
4
EPA
has
this
effect
on
that.
We
can't
tell
5
you
how
to
handle
your
contracting
or
procurement
6
process,
that's
not
our
purview.
In
terms
of
what
you
7
do
internally
if
you
guys
want
to
set
these
standards
8
to
really
make
this
thing
work
and
maximize
the
9
benefits
for
your
tribally
owned
businesses,
we
love
to
10
see
you
do
and
we
encourage
it.
11
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
So
again,
between
the
12
government
and
EPA
you
can
say
realistically
let's
­­
13
we're
going
to
shoot
for
40.
14
MS.
BROWN:
It's
based
on
the
availability
15
analysis
that
you
do.
Okay.
The
caution
I
would
give
16
you,
and
we
encourage
that,
is
that
to
make
sure
as
the
17
tribal
government
and
you
do
that,
that
is
standard
18
across
the
board
and
you
have
it
written
down
and
19
identified
and
that's
the
practice
that
you
use
for
20
everything
that
you
do.
21
You
need
to
be
consistent
with
it.
It
needs
22
to
be
standardized.
I
would
think
because
somebody
23
could
possibly
come
back
and
try
to
challenge
it,
and
24
you
could
have
to
try
to
defend
it.
But
you
can
come
25
up
with
whatever
you
want
on
the
internal
side.
But
0061
1
from
an
EPA
perspective
what
we
will
be
looking
at
is
2
what
we
negotiated
with
you
and
what
came
out
as
a
3
result
of
that
availability
analysis
that
was
done.
4
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
Okay.
Then
I
can
just
turn
5
around,
being
the
recipients,
I
can
tell
my
prime
we're
6
going
to
­­
7
MS.
BROWN:
If
EPA
says
40,
I
would
do
60.
8
MS.
PATRICK:
Do
you
have
a
question?
9
MS.
KRUEGER:
Katie
Krueger,
Quileute
Tribe.
10
Okay.
I'm
kind
of
concerned
about
our
single,
one
11
person
contracting
grants
office
and
what
they're
going
12
to
have
to
add
to
their
workload.
And
I'm
asking
these
13
questions
on
behalf
of
that.
14
Okay.
We're
already
using
some
small
15
businesses
now
and
some
contractors
now,
but
I
doubt
16
that
they
are
necessarily
certified
under
the
EPA
17
process.
Should
we
be
telling
all
those
people
to
be
18
contacting
EPA
now
because
this
rule
is
imminent?
And
19
as
a
compound
to
that
question,
what
is
the
situation
20
if
we're
using
a
person,
right,
whose
is
either
21
self­
certified
or
not
yet
like
certified,
even
if
22
they're
like
a
single
woman
contractor?
23
I
mean,
there's
a
one­
woman
contractor
person
24
that
we're
using
under
our
GAP
grant,
but
then
the
law
25
becomes
effective
and
this
person
hasn't
become
0062
1
certified
under
EPA
yet.
Do
you
have
to
­­
what
do
we
2
tell
that
person
if
we're
in
midflight,
so
to
speak,
in
3
a
contract
and
the
law
changes
and
they
have
to
get
EPA
4
certification?
That's
the
second
­­
5
The
first
part
was
do
we
have
to
run
out
and
6
tell
all
of
our
contractors
that
they
better
go
through
7
you
ASAP
because
this
law
is
coming
or
what
do
we
do?
8
MS.
BROWN:
Right
now,
as
it
currently
exists
9
with
the
program,
we
don't
certify.
We
still
take
10
self­
certification.
You're
talking
probably
­­
and
one
11
of
the
things
that
we
haven't
gotten
to
is
­­
we
12
recognize
that
this
is
new
for
the
tribes,
so
we're
13
looking
at
phasing
this
rule
and
the
changes
in
over
a
14
three­
year
period
after
it
comes
into
effect.
15
MS.
PATRICK:
And
that's
only
for
tribal
16
members.
17
MS.
BROWN:
That's
only
for
tribal
18
recipients.
We're
not
doing
that
with
any
other
grant
19
recipient:
The
states,
nonprofits,
local
government.
20
As
soon
as
the
rule
is
in
effect
all
of
this
will
kick
21
in.
For
the
tribes
we're
looking
at
a
three­
year
phase
22
in
period.
23
Given
the
scenario
that
you
gave,
and
it's
24
like
midstream
and
she's
already
working,
you
can
still
25
use
her.
It
won't
count
towards
your
goal
possibly,
0063
1
but
you
can
still
use
her.
In
the
mean
time,
if
you
2
know
that
you
have
somebody
and
they
are
not
certified
3
­­
again,
what
we
recommended
is
they
try
to
get
4
certified
first
by
SBA,
DOT
or
even
by
you
as
the
5
tribal
entity.
If
you
have
that
set
up.
Provided
that
6
you
meet
the
statute
that
we
­
are
the
criteria
that
7
we've
identified,
we'll
accept
it.
If
not,
then
they
8
come
to
us
and
we
will
certify.
9
MS.
PATRICK:
Before
you
go
on
let
me
explain
10
that.
Let's
say
this
rule
goes
into
effect
tomorrow,
11
okay,
and
you're
currently
using
someone.
We're
not
­­
12
that's
fine.
You
need
to
stay
with
that
person
because
13
we're
not
­­
we're
not
­­
we're
not
going
back
in
time
14
and
saying,
okay,
we
want
you
to
undo
all
you
just
did
15
or
nothing
you
just
did
counts.
That's
unfair,
and
we
16
recognize
that.
There's
no
way
we
could
ever
say
that.
17
Let's
say
you're
currently
using
this
person
18
and
this
person
can
easily
self­
certify.
She
doesn't
19
have
to
go
through
any
process.
All
she
has
to
do
is
20
say
this
is
what
I
am.
This
is
what
I
say
I
am.
We
21
accept
that
right
now.
22
So
if
you're
currently
using
someone
and
23
she's
saying
that
she's
not
certified
by
SBA
or
by
the
24
state.
All
she
has
to
do
is
say,
look,
I'm
a
woman
25
owned
business,
and
right
now
we'll
take
it.
0064
1
MS.
BROWN:
And
right
now
nobody
certifies
2
women.
SBA
­­
3
MS.
PATRICK:
Right.
But
she
can
say
she's
4
small
and
we'd
have
to
­­
or
she
could
say
that
she's
5
disadvantaged
and
we
would
have
to
take
that
because
we
6
have
no
certification
program
current
right
now.
7
MS.
BROWN:
Nobody
can
come
to
us
right
now
8
to
get
certified.
9
MS.
KRUEGER:
So
there's
no
advanced
process
10
they
can
do?
11
MS.
BROWN:
No.
12
MS.
KRUEGER:
How
lengthy
is
the
process?
13
MS.
BROWN:
Right
now
SBA'S
process
takes
a
14
while,
but
they're
working
on
streamlining
that.
15
MS.
KRUEGER:
What's
a
while?
16
MS.
BROWN:
A
while
is
anywhere
from
six
to
17
nine
months.
18
MS.
PATRICK:
Three,
six,
nine
months.
19
MS.
BROWN:
That's
with
SBA.
You
can
20
probably
get
it
a
lot
quicker
with
from
DOT.
21
MS.
PATRICK:
And
probably
quicker
than
that
22
from
the
state
for
from
a
local
entity,
from
your
23
tribal
government
if
they
have
something
set
up.
Also
24
for
our
particular
program
we
are
hoping
­­
and
I
can
25
only
say
hope
­­
we
are
hopping
that
our
process
will
0065
1
not
be
as
cumbersome
or
as
lengthy
as
SBA's.
We're
2
doing
all
that
we
can
to
make
it
a
quicker
type
of
3
process.
4
But
please
understand
we've
never
been
in
the
5
certification
business
before.
This
thing
is
just
as
6
new
to
us
as
it
is
to
you.
We
don't
know
how
long
7
things
are
going
to
take
until
we
get
going
and
start
8
doing
this
type
of
thing.
9
One
of
the
reasons
why
we
are
asking
people
10
to
get
­­
to
go
and
get
SBA
certified
or
DOT
certified
11
or
state
or
local,
or
whatever,
is
because
they
have
12
their
processes
set
up,
and
it's
already
running
and
13
it's
going,
and
so
it's
a
lot
easier
if
you
already
14
have
that
certification
to
come
to
us.
15
As
a
business
owner
an
SBA
certification
is
16
going
to
carry
you
a
lot
farther
than
an
EPA
17
certification
would.
SBA
is
known
across
the
country.
18
That's
their
­­
they're
in
the
certification
business,
19
that's
who
they
are,
that's
what
they
do.
So
currently
20
while
we
would
accept
an
SBA
certification,
guess
21
what?
SBA
is
not
going
to
accept
an
EPA
one.
We
don't
22
have
that
kind
of
reciprocity.
So
it
makes
sense
from
23
a
businesses
owners
perspective
to
get
an
SBA
24
certification
or
to
get
a
DOT
or
a
state
type
of
25
certification
because
EPA
certification
currently
is
0066
1
only
good
at
EPA.
And
even
SBA
and
DOT
have
a
2
memorandum
of
understanding
whereby
they
accept
each
3
other's
certifications,
so
SBA
would
accept
the
DOT
4
certification.
5
MS.
KRUEGER:
The
state
­­
6
MS.
PATRICK:
Federal
­­
SBA
will
accept
the
7
DOT
certification
but
not
the
state.
8
MS.
KRUEGER:
And
you
folks
will
accept
SBA
9
and
DOT?
10
MS.
PATRICK:
Provided
they
meet
our
11
standards.
12
MS.
BROWN:
Provided
you're
a
citizen.
Right
13
now
DOT
accepts
noncitizen,
and
we're
saying
you
must
14
be
a
citizen
of
the
United
States,
which
is
also
what
15
SBA
says.
16
MS.
PATRICK:
Exactly,
but
SBA
has
worked
out
17
something
with
EPA
whereby
they
have
reciprocity.
18
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
Will
EPA
accept
state?
19
MS.
PATRICK:
EPA
will
accept
state,
local,
20
tribal,
SBA
­­
DOT,
tribal
SBA,
DOT.
We
want
you
to
go
21
get
it
done
somewhere
else
is
what
we're
saying.
22
MS.
BROWN:
When
you
come
­­
when
you
come
to
23
us,
we're
your
last
resort.
You
couldn't
get
it
any
24
place
else
and
so
we
would
have
to
do
it.
We
don't
25
want
to
be
in
the
certification
business.
Like
she
0067
1
said,
this
is
new
for
us.
2
MS.
PATRICK:
Adarand
is
forcing
­­
3
MS.
BROWN:
The
law
of
the
land
now
says
if
4
you're
going
to
do
this,
you
have
to
do
it
and
put
a
5
process
in
place
for
those
entities
that
may
not
have
6
it
from
these
other
sources.
7
MS.
KRUEGER:
Are
you
familiar
with
how
much
8
this
costs?
Because
if
I
go
to
these
really
small
9
contractors
that
are
doing
services
for
us
that,
right,
10
are
probably
not
registered
or
certified
under
any
11
program
and
I
say,
we
really
want
you
to
get
this
12
certification,
so
it
benefits
our
tribe's
bookkeeping
13
with
an
agencies,
what
can
I
tell
this
person
it's
14
going
to
cost?
15
MS.
BROWN:
It's
really
free.
There
are
a
16
lot
of
companies
out
here
that
will
tell
you
if
you
pay
17
me
a
couple
of
thousand
dollars,
sometimes
$
20,000,
I
18
can
get
you
certified.
I
don't
suggest
you
do
that.
19
I've
worked
at
SBA.
It
may
be
lengthy,
but
you
can
do
20
it
as
the
individual
owner.
21
The
forms
are
on
line
and
everything
is
22
automated.
It's
online,
and
that
contractor
who
is
23
trying
to
get
some
business
has
to
go
through
the
same
24
­­
his
power
­­
his
application
­­
your
application,
25
that
goes
to
the
same
pile
that
it
would
with
me
doing
0068
1
it
myself.
2
So
it
doesn't
gain
anything,
and
I
would
3
guess
that
if
you
have
a
contractor
who
has
at
least
4
put
the
paperwork
in,
waiting
on
it
to
come
back,
and
5
you
tell
us
that,
we
can
work
with
them.
We
have
on
6
the
direct
procurement
side
made
calls
to
SBA
to
see
if
7
they
could
speed
up
the
process
from
one
government
8
agency
to
the
other.
9
But
I
would
not
recommended
that
they
pay
10
somebody
to
do
it,
and
that's
with
any
of
them,
GSA,
11
that's
money
waisted,
that's
my
opinion.
I
know
it's
12
my
time.
Do
you
want
to
go
on
or
can
we
take
a
break
13
and
then
come
back?
It's
lunchtime.
14
(
A
recess
was
taken.)
15
MS.
BROWN:
Again,
we're
asking
that
if
you
16
have
questions
that
you
state
your
name
and
who
you
17
represent
or
what
tribe
you're
from,
and
then
your
18
question
so
that
he
can
get
it.
19
We
talked
about
­­
we
were
still
under
the
20
contract
administration
provisions.
A
recipient
must
21
require
its
prime
contractor
to
pay
his
subcontractor
22
for
satisfactory
performance
within
a
specific
number
23
pf
days
from
the
prime
contractor's
receipt
of
payment
24
from
the
recipient.
25
This
is
to
ensure
that
the
small
businesses
0069
1
or
the
minority
businesses
are
getting
paid
for
the
2
work
they
do.
We've
seen
some
instances
where
they
may
3
do
work
and
not
get
paid
for
it
or
it
takes
a
long
4
time,
so
we're
trying
to
eliminate
or
alleviate
as
much
5
as
possible
that
practice
so
they
can
get
paid
in
the
6
timely
manner.
7
The
recipient
must
require
the
completion
of
8
a
few
new
forms
to
prevent
the
bait
and
switch
­­
which
9
is
what
we
talked
about
earlier
­­
at
the
subcontract
10
level
by
the
prime
contractor
which
could
circumvent
11
the
spirit
of
the
DBE
program.
That's
so
that
we
know
12
and
you
all
will
know
as
you
identify
your
prime
13
contractors.
Again,
if
they
have
a
subcontractor,
that
14
they
notify
you
if
they're
going
to
terminate,
that
15
they
go
back
out
and
try
to
find
another
minority
16
business,
et
cetera,
to
fill
in
that
slot.
17
The
forms
would
be
completed
either
by
the
18
prime
contractors
or
the
DBEs
depending
on
the
19
application
form,
and
those
forms
are
being
created
so
20
that
we'll
have
those
when
the
rule
is
final.
21
Submission
of
the
fair
share
goals:
The
rule
22
will
require
recipients
to
submit
its
proposed
fair
23
share
objectives
and
supporting
documentation
to
the
24
agency
no
longer
than
90
days
after
the
acceptance
of
25
the
assistance
award
and
this
is
new.
0070
1
Instead
of
relying
on
a
grant
condition
to
2
accomplish
a
similar
result,
the
recipient
would
not
be
3
able
to
spend
any
of
the
financial
assistance
award
for
4
procurement
­­
those
procurement
dollars
­­
until
the
5
fair
share
objective
negotiation
process
has
been
6
completed.
7
So
if
­­
8
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
Fair
share?
9
MS.
BROWN:
Fair
share
negotiations.
10
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
For
procurement?
11
MS.
BROWN:
Okay.
Remember
we
talked
about
12
spending
the
money
if
you
buy
anything
in
those
four
13
categories:
Equipment,
construction,
services
or
14
supplies?
And
remember
we
talked
about
the
exemption
15
that
we
would
have
for
negotiations?
Okay.
This
is
16
saying
if
you
don't
fall
into
that
category
with
the
17
exemptions,
you
have
90
days
after
you
accept
the
18
assistance
award
to
have
your
fair
share
negotiations
19
completed,
that's
where
the
goals
come
from,
and
we
use
20
that
to
plug
into
your
grant.
21
Costs
for
preparing
an
availability
anaylysis
22
or
disparity
study
may
be
grant
eligible
possibly,
23
depending
on
the
specific
fact
and
situation.
We
have
24
to
do
this
on
a
case­
by­
case
basis.
25
We
don't
intend
to
pay
for
disparity
studies,
0071
1
because
disparity
studies
cost
millions
of
dollars,
and
2
availability
analysis,
however,
could
be
tremendously
3
much
less,
in
terms
of
dollars,
and
it
varies.
And
so
4
we're
looking
at
most
likely
working
with
you
all
to
to
5
get
your
availability
analysis,
and
that's
doing
an
6
analysis
with
what
the
current
mark
conditions
are
in
7
terms
of
where
you
go
to
procure,
how
far
you
go,
where
8
you
contractors
come
in
from
to
do
the
work
on
the
9
reservation
or
whatever
you
might
need
to
see
what's
10
there
in
your
vicinity
and
then
do
an
analysis
of
who
11
is
available:
Women,
minorities,
et
cetera.
12
Right
now
the
fair
share
negotiations
have
13
been
in
place
on
a
three­
year
period.
They're
good
for
14
three
years.
What
we've
done,
based
on
new
data
­­
in
15
particular
when
the
new
census
as
was
done
­­
we
asked
16
each
of
the
MBE/
WBE
coordinators
to
go
back
to
their
17
grant
recipients
to
see
if
they
felt
like
there
was
a
18
change
in
the
data
that
they
used
for
their
initial
19
analysis
that
would
warrant
a
change
in
the
goals,
and
20
that's
an
assessment
that
they
have
to
do
that
you
all
21
would
have
to
do.
But
we
ask
­­
we're
looking
at
22
probably
staying
with
that,
but
for
right
now
I
know
23
it's
been
­­
the
goals
have
been
good
for
three
years,
24
and
they
would
go
back
out
to
see
if
there's
been
a
25
change,
and
if
we
need
to
renegotiate.
In
some
0072
1
instances
we
have,
and
others
we
have
not.
2
MS.
McPEAK:
Three
years?
3
MS.
BROWN:
The
goals
are
usually
in
place
4
for
three
years.
The
other
part
is
determining
fair
5
share
goals,
and
that's
a
calculation
and
can
be
quite
6
lengthy
on
how
you
do
that.
Do
we
want
­­
7
MS.
PATRICK:
The
basic
of
this
is,
the
goals
8
as
we
talked
about
before
the
break
­­
the
goals
are
9
based
on
the
availability
analysis
or
the
disparity
10
study.
The
tribes
have
a
number
of
options
in
terms
of
11
how
to
get
those
things
done.
12
If
the
tribe
so
chooses,
they
can
adopt
the
13
fair
share
goals
of
the
state,
or
they
can
adopt
the
14
fair
share
goals
that
have
already
been
negotiated
if
a
15
locality
or
municipality
has
negotiated
goals
with
us
16
and
they're
in
the
same
geographic
area.
They
can
17
adopt
those
goals
if
they
so
choose
they
can
negotiate.
18
(
Discussion
held
off
the
record.)
19
They
can
negotiate
goals
on
their
own
and
do
20
their
own
availability
analysis
or
disparity
study
21
which
ever
they
choose
to
do.
I
will
say
disparity
22
studies
are
a
lot
more
in
depth
and
can
be
a
lot
more
23
costly.
A
lot
of
entities
will
go
to
colleges
and
24
universities
and
that
type
of
thing
to
get
them
done.
25
It
is
a
less
expensive
way.
0073
1
But
those
are
the
options
that
the
tribes
2
have
in
terms
of
getting
the
information
for
the
3
availability
analysis
or
disparity
study
done
or
4
adoption
of
goals
from
the
state
or
from
another
5
municipality
or
locality.
6
MS.
BROWN:
Let
me
just
say,
you
don't
have
7
to
take
the
state
goal.
We're
telling
the
tribes
to
do
8
that
but
one
way
that
you
could
possibly
do
it,
that's
9
an
option
for
you.
10
MS.
PATRICK:
A
lot
of
times
the
states
have
11
already
done
these
studies
for
the
entire
state,
so
you
12
can
look
at
what
the
numbers
are
for
your
particular
13
area.
Instead
of
going
back
and
reinventing
the
wheel
14
you
can
say,
this
is
the
area
we're
in.
Based
on
this
15
state's
study
this
is
what
our
goals
should
be
or
this
16
is
how
we
want
to
start
the
negotiations
based
on
17
that.
That's
pretty
much
how
it's
done.
Marie.
18
MS.
McPEAK:
I
had
heard
a
rumor
that
maybe
19
EPA
was
going
to
do
availability
analyses
for
different
20
parts
of
the
country
that
then
the
tribes
could
use
21
those
availability
analyses
to
determine
their
goals
22
rather
than
to
use
the
goals
that
the
state
has
23
negotiated.
24
MS.
BROWN:
When
we
were
looking
at
the
large
25
number
of
tribes
before
we
did
the
exemptions
that
way,
0074
1
that
was
something
that
was
being
considered.
I'm
just
2
not
sure
that's
­­
if
we
will
do
that
now.
We
thought
3
that
by
doing
or
giving
the
exemptions
the
way
that
we
4
have,
eliminating
a
large
percentage
of
them,
that
it
5
would
be
that
much
­­
6
MS.
PATRICK:
We
had
thought
about
doing
that
7
before
we
added
in
the
exemption
for
PPG
eligible
8
grants.
Once
that
exemption
came
into
play,
it's
about
9
17
categories
of
grants,
it
wasn't
as
necessary
as
we
10
thought
it
was.
The
numbers
of
people
that
would
have
11
to
negotiate
would
be
so
much
smaller,
that
we
didn't
12
think
it
would
be
cost
effective
for
us
as
to
a
13
national
availability
study
when
only
about
20
or
so
14
need
it.
15
And
so
after
we
did
that
­­
I
mean,
it's
not
16
something
that's
taken
completely
off
the
table.
If
we
17
look
at
it
and
the
need
arises,
it's
something
we
can
18
revisit
perhaps.
But
at
this
point
that's
not
19
something
we
think
is
really
feasible.
20
MS.
BROWN:
And
if
you
think
that's
something
21
you
think
that
you
might
need,
that
may
be
a
good
thing
22
to
address
when
you
comment
back
on
the
rule.
One
of
23
the
other
things
that
we
also
were
looking
at
is
the
24
race
and
gender
conscious
efforts,
to
the
extent
that
25
the
good
faith
efforts
proved
to
be
inadequate
to
0075
1
achieve
the
fair
share
goals,
we
encourage
a
recipient
2
of
prime
contractor
to
take
a
reasonable
race
and
3
gender
conscious
action
to
the
extent
necessary
to
more
4
closely
achieve
the
fair
share
goals
including
things
5
like
price
incentives
and/
or
technical
evaluation
6
credits.
If
a
grant
recipient
decides
to
do
that,
they
7
would
need
to
notify
us
first
before
they
do
it.
8
We
talked
about
the
exemptions.
The
next
9
thing
is
the
exemptions
on
the
list.
We
are
proposing
10
to
exempt
recipients
from
financial
assistance
11
agreements
in
the
amount
$
250,000
or
less
for
any
12
single
assistant
agreement
or
for
more
than
one
13
financial
assistance
agreement
with
a
combined
total
of
14
$
250,000
or
less
in
any
one
fiscal
year
from
the
fair
15
share
negotiation
requirement.
That's
only
an
16
exemption
from
the
negotiations.
It
doesn't
exempt
you
17
from
the
good
faith
efforts.
It
doesn't
exempt
you
18
from
reporting,
that's
still
a
requirement
and
that
19
will
be
there.
20
MS.
PATRICK:
That
same
$
250,000
exemption
is
21
also
going
to
apply
to
revolving
loan
fund
programs,
22
Brown
Field
Program,
and
what's
the
other
one?
23
MS.
McPEAK:
I
just
wanted
to
find
out
to
get
24
some
clarity
on
what
this
actually
means
for
us
in
25
terms
of
$
250,000.
We
are
trying,
within
our
region,
0076
1
because
of
our
resources
being
so
short,
we
are
now
2
funding
like
multiple
years
of
one
grant.
3
For
instance,
we'll
fund
a
GAP
grant
for
two
4
years
rather
than
to
fund
it
for
one
year.
The
money
5
is
to
be
used
in
two
separate
fiscal
years,
but
we're
6
giving
them
a
combined
total
that
may
be
over
250
in
7
the
one
year,
but
it's
not
to
be
used
all
in
one
year.
8
It's
for
use
over
a
two­
year
period
of
time.
Is
that
9
being
taken
in
consideration?
10
MS.
PATRICK:
Honestly,
we
had
not
taken
that
11
into
consideration
at
the
time.
12
MS.
BROWN:
That
is
new.
13
MS.
PATRICK:
That
is
something
that
14
definitely
needs
to
be
­­
from
our
perspective,
in
15
terms
of
drafting
the
rule
at
the
time,
we
didn't
take
16
that
into
consideration.
So
that's
something
that
17
definitely
needs
to
be
commented
on.
I
had
no
idea
18
that
you
guys
were
funding
it
that
way.
19
MS.
McPEAK:
We're
trying
to
do
that
more
and
20
more
because
of
our
lack
of
­­
21
MS.
BROWN:
Have
you
been
doing
that
22
already?
23
MS.
McPEAK:
We
have
started
doing
it,
but
24
it's
only
within
the
last
few
years
that
we've
been
25
doing
it,
last
couple
of
years
that
we've
been
doing
0077
1
that.
And
so
we're
even
­­
we're
doing
like
our
106
2
grants
and
our
GAP
grants,
319
grants
with
3
multiple­
year
funding.
It's
not
all
to
be
used
in
one
4
year
but
it's
to
be
used
in
several
years,
and
so.
5
MS.
PATRICK:
Aren't
GAP
grants
PPG
6
eligible?
7
MS.
McPEAK:
Yes.
8
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
then
they
would
be
exempt
9
anyway.
10
MS.
McPEAK:
Not
from
reporting,
or
not
11
from
­­
12
MS.
PATRICK:
No
one
is
ever
exempt
from
13
reporting.
14
MS.
McPEAK:
No.
15
MS.
BROWN:
This
is
only
on
fair
share
16
negotiations,
that's
all.
17
MS.
McPEAK:
Well,
see,
we're
even
doing
that
18
like
in
the
AIR
103
program
which
is
not
PPG
eligible,
19
so
that,
you
know,
it
would,
if
you
had
a
group
of
our
20
grants.
21
MS.
BROWN:
We
need
­­
that's
another
22
question
you
need
to
raise.
23
MS.
McPEAK:
Uh­
uh.
24
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
Moving
on.
25
MR.
ANDREWS:
Just
a
clarification.
0078
1
MS.
BROWN:
Can
you
tell
us
your
name?
2
MR.
ANDREWS:
Scott
Andrews,
Swinombis
3
Tribe.
I
just
wanted
to
try
to
get
a
clarification
on
4
the
exemptions
to
make
sure
I
have
it
right.
Any
5
single
agreement
or
grant
for
$
250,000
or
less
­­
6
MS.
BROWN:
Or
less.
7
MR.
ANDREWS:
Is
exempt
from
the
fair
share
8
negotiations
as
well
as
any
PPG
eligible
programs.
9
Now,
does
that
mean
any
programs
that
falls
under
I
10
think
it's
13
programs
that
­­
11
MS.
BROWN:
17.
12
MR.
ANDREWS:
17
that
are
eligible
regardless
13
of
whether
you
have
combined
them
into
a
PPG?
14
MS.
PATRICK:
The
way
that
it's
written
right
15
now
PPG
eligible
grants
that
are
exempt
­­
so
even
if
16
it's
not
rolled
into
a
PPG,
it's
eligible
to
be
rolled
17
into
a
PPG
its
exempt.
18
MR.
ANDREWS:
Okay.
And
there's
a
three­
year
19
phase
in
for
tribes?
20
MS.
PATRICK:
Because
on
many
of
these
21
things,
especially
the
negotiations,
are
brand
new
for
22
the
tribes.
23
MS.
BROWN:
For
the
tribes.
24
MS.
PATRICK:
Only
for
the
tribes
is
there
a
25
three­
year
phase
in
period.
For
states
and
nonprofits,
0079
1
we
expect
them
to
hit
the
ground
running.
For
the
2
tribes,
we're
giving
a
three­
year
phase
in
period.
We
3
know
there's
a
lot
of
education
you
need
to
go
out
and
4
do
to
make
sure
people
understand
what
the
expectations
5
are
before
we
get
there.
6
MR.
ANDREWS:
And
the
clock
starts
ticking
on
7
that
three­
year
period
when
the
rule
is
final;
is
that
8
correct?
9
MS.
PATRICK:
When
the
rule
is
final.
10
MR.
ANDREWS:
Thanks.
11
MS.
PATRICK:
We're
down
to
record
keeping
12
and
reporting,
which
we've
talked
about.
13
MS.
BROWN:
The
other
things
on
record
14
keeping,
a
recipient
of
a
continuing
environmental
15
program
grant
or
other
annual
grant
would
be
required
16
to
create
and
maintain
a
bidder's
list.
Such
list
must
17
only
be
kept
until
the
grant
project
period
has
18
expired,
and
the
grant
recipient
is
no
longer
receiving
19
funding
under
a
grant.
20
In
addition,
a
recipient
of
an
EPA
financial
21
assistance
agreement
S.
R.
F.
Brown
Field,
the
resolving
22
loan
programs,
must
require
entities
receiving
loans
to
23
create
and
maintain
a
bidders'
mailing
list
if
the
loan
24
recipient
is
subject
to
or
chooses
to
follow
the
25
competitive
bidding
practices
or
requirements.
0080
1
The
purpose
of
a
bidders'
list
is
to
provide
2
the
recipient,
the
entities
receiving
identified
loans
3
who
conduct
competitive
bidding,
as
accurate
a
use
for
4
the
data
base
where
possible,
so
that
we
can
identify
5
the
universe
of
MBE/
WBE
out
there
for
prime
contracting
6
and
subcontracting
opportunities.
7
Such
a
list
must
only
be
kept
until
the
8
project
period
for
the
identified
loan
has
ended.
So
9
as
long
as
the
loan
is
ongoing
they
need
the
list.
10
Recipients
are
required
to
comply
with
these
record
11
keeping
requirements
even
if
they
are
exempt
from
12
applying
the
fair
share
objective
requirements.
13
Waivers,
we
will
be
granting
waivers
on
a
14
case­
by­
case
basis
from
Part
33,
and
they
need
to
come
15
into
my
office
for
consideration.
16
MS.
PATRICK:
We
cannot
grant
waivers
for
17
anything
that's
statutorily
required,
so
please
18
understand
that.
So
where
we
have
the
leeway
to
grant
19
a
waiver
we
can,
under
a
case­
by­
case
basis,
consider
20
that
and
grant
the
waiver.
But
if
it's
something
the
21
statute
or
executive
order
requires,
we
don't
have
the
22
authority
to
waive
that.
23
MS.
BROWN:
We
need
to
make
sure
that
we
24
stress
that
­­
what
was
that
we
talked
about
at
lunch
25
­­
reporting
is
required?
0081
1
MS.
PATRICK:
I
just
want
to
say
it
one
last
2
time.
Reporting
is
great.
Reporting
is
definitely
3
required,
so
we
just
want
to
make
that
really
clear.
4
Under
no
circumstances
is
anyone
exempt
from
5
reporting.
Now,
even
if
­­
let's
say
you
get
a
grant
6
and
you
go
out
and
you
spend
money
and
­­
well,
you
get
7
a
grant,
let's
say
you
spend
no
money
for
the
first
8
reporting
period.
Even
if
your
numbers
are
zero
­­
9
MS.
BROWN:
You
still
need
to
report.
10
MS.
PATRICK:
­­
put
zero
on
the
form
and
11
send
it
in.
In
fact,
there's
even
a
box
on
the
form
12
that
says,
"
I
have
had
no
procurement
during
this
13
reporting
period."
You
check
the
box
,
fill
out
the
14
top
and
send
it
back.
That's
all
I
have
to
do.
If
15
zero
is
what
you
had,
then
zero
is
what
you
report.
16
But
we
just
need
to
make
sure
that
we
know
that
you're
17
reporting
and
sending
the
forms
in.
18
MS.
BROWN:
The
other
thing
with
reporting
as
19
well
­­
I
mean,
not
just
with
reporting
but
with
the
20
program
­­
if
you
decide
to
choose
to
use
the
funding
21
from
the
grant
to
pay
salaries
for
tribal
members
or
22
people
that
work
for
you,
this
program
does
not
kick
in
23
for
salaries.
It's
only
when
you
go
out
and
buy
24
something
in
one
of
those
four
categories.
What
are
25
they?
Construction,
equipment,
services
or
supplies.
0082
1
If
you
use
it
strictly
fore
salaries,
this
program
2
doesn't
kick
in.
3
MS.
McPEAK:
I
wanted
to
just
find
out
if
4
everybody
knows
what
they're
referring
to
when
they
say
5
the
recipients
are
supposed
to
keep
a
bidders'
list?
6
Does
everyone
know
what
a
bidders'
list
is?
7
MS.
BROWN:
I
didn't
think
so.
8
MS.
PATRICK:
We
can
tell
you.
When
we
give
9
you
grant
money
and
you
go
out
and
you
procure
things,
10
if
you
­­
if
your
contract
­­
I'm
sorry.
If
your
11
practices
are
to
compete
for
the
contracts,
and
you
12
have
people
who
come
in
and
bid
on
those
contracts,
you
13
have
to
maintain
a
list
of
people
who
have
bid.
14
MS.
BROWN:
Who
they
are,
what
they
bid.
15
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
all
it
is,
just
a
list
16
of
bidders
and
what
they
bid,
you
know,
I
think
names
17
and
address
or
with
contact
information
that's
all
it
18
is.
It's
pretty
simple.
19
MS.
BROWN:
Again,
that's
part
of
the
20
documentation
for
the
file,
so
that
there's
a
record
in
21
terms
of
what
you
did
as
the
tribe,
as
the
state,
as
22
the
grantee
and
you
went
out
and
you
did
this
on
your
23
own.
24
MS.
MS.
TURNINGROBE:
So
if
somebody
is
going
25
to
challenge,
you
can
say
­­
0083
1
MS.
BROWN:
That's
what
you
go
to,
that's
a
2
paper
trail,
that's
right.
3
MS.
SHOWALTER:
Rachel
Showalter,
Gulkana
4
Village
Counsel.
My
question
is
once
this
bidders'
5
list
is
created
can
we
use
it
again
or
does
it
have
to
6
be
done
away
with
once
the
grant
year
is
over?
7
MS.
PATRICK:
If
you
­­
8
MS.
BROWN:
The
bidders'
list
is
the
9
by­
product
of
what
you've
done
in
terms
of
going
out
to
10
compete
and
who
comes
in.
It's
your
record
of
account
11
of
who
came
in
for
that
particular
procurement
and
what
12
they
proposed
in
terms
of
the
dollars,
so
that's
13
specific
to
that
procurement.
14
Now,
you
could
use
that
possibly
if
you
have
15
­­
and
when
I
say
that,
I
don't
mean
the
bidders'
list
16
per
se,
but
information
from
that
you
can
glean
to
go
17
out
again,
if
you
need
to,
for
another
requirement
or
18
to
identify
other
minority
businesses
in
your
area.
19
MS.
PATRICK:
It's
also
a
good
way
to
begin
20
to
develop
your
own
data
base
in
a
way,
a
list
of
21
people
who
­­
if
someone
has
bid
that
they're
obviously
22
available
and
they
thinking
that
they're
capable
of
23
doing
the
work.
And
so
maintaining
a
bidders'
list
is
24
not
only
good
documentation,
but
it
can
also
be
a
25
resource
for
you
as
that
list
grows,
so
you'll
have
a
0084
1
good
idea
of
who's
out
there,
especially
if
you
2
actively
solicit
small,
disadvantaged
businesses
to
3
come
in
and
compete
for
those
contracts.
4
MS.
BROWN:
As
Kimberly
said
that
I'm
5
thinking
a
lot
of
times
your
files
may
be
separate
and
6
stand
alone.
So
if
you
close
that
file
out
all
of
that
7
information
is
gone.
You
need
another
way
to
glean
8
from
that
and
make
that
some
kind
of
corporate
memory
9
somewhere
so
that
you'll
know
who's
out
there
so
you
10
can
draw
on
that
later
on
if
you
have
another
11
requirement
for
the
same
or
similar.
12
MS.
DAVIDSON:
A
good
way
to
get
some
13
information
about
firms
is
to
send
out
a
notice
about
14
sources
sought
and
people
will
send
you
all
of
their
15
technical
proposals.
16
MS.
BAYLESS:
Michelle
Bayless
from
the
17
Native
Village
of
Tazlina.
I
had
experience
working
18
with
a
procurement
policy
with
NAHSDA,
and
the
way
they
19
did
it
was
you
would
­­
for
each
business
that
you
20
wanted
to
bid
on
your
construction
project,
each
of
21
those
places
would
have
their
own
bid
form.
They
would
22
put
their
price
down,
and
we
would
save
that
in
the
23
file.
24
So
what
you're
saying
is
we
would
take
that
25
information
off
of
there
and
just
have
the
name
of
the
0085
1
business,
the
address
and
the
amount
that
they
bid?
2
MS.
BROWN:
Uh­
huh.
3
MS.
BAYLESS:
And
would
it
have
to
reflect
4
which
project
it
bid
on?
5
MS.
BROWN:
Uh­
huh.
6
MS.
BAYLESS:
So
you'd
basically
need
all
7
that
information
that
on
a
procurement
­­
on
a
list?
8
MS.
PATRICK:
Pretty
much.
9
MS.
BROWN:
Did
you
have
another
question,
10
and
that's
it.
Next
steps,
this
is
the
third
hearing
11
we
have.
We
have
13
more
to
go.
The
rule
comment
12
period
closes
January
the
20th,
and
so
we
need
and
13
encourage
you
to
get
your
comments
into
us.
Again,
14
earlier
we
gave
out
where
you
can
find
that.
You
can
15
get
a
copy
of
the
Federal
Register
electronically
16
through
EPA
Internet
listings
at
www.
epa.
gov/
fedrgstr.
17
MS.
PATRICK:
And
also,
I
think
there's
still
18
some
more
of
them
out
there.
If
you
pick
this
up,
it's
19
out
there
on
the
handout
sheet.
It's
the
only
document
20
out
there
that's
on
EPA
letterhead.
Inside
of
that
is
21
the
Q
&
A
sheet
that
tells
you
exactly
all
the
places
22
you
can
go
to
find
the
rule.
It
also
tells
you
like
23
the
five
or
six
ways
you
can
send
in
your
comments.
So
24
make
sure
you
take
a
look
at
that,
it's
very
25
important.
I
think
that's
it
for
­­
we
have
a
question
0086
1
here.
2
MS.
BAYLESS:
Michelle
Bayless
from
the
3
Native
Village
of
Tazlina.
My
question
was
are
the
4
grantees
or
the
people
that
receive
the
grant
money
5
obligated
to
hire
the
lowest
bid?
6
MS.
PATRICK:
That
speaks
to
your
internal
7
processes
or
whatever
your
competitive
processes
is
for
8
contracting,
and
so
if
you
all
have
set
up
a
standard
9
that
says
lowest
price
is
not
our
primary
goal
and
you
10
want
to
add
in
other
factors
like
technical
ability
or
11
past
performance,
whatever
it
is
you
use
for
your
12
procurement
practices,
that's
up
to
you
all.
We
don't
13
have
a
say
in
that.
14
MS.
BROWN:
Right.
We're
not
saying
you
have
15
to
go
to
them
just
because
they're
a
minority.
They
16
have
to
be
equipped,
ready
and
able
and
willing
to
do
17
the
job.
All
we're
saying
is
that
they
need
to
know
18
what
your
processes
is
and
that
these
opportunities
19
exists.
20
We're
hoping,
not
just
the
tribes
but
the
21
states
and
local
governments,
would
use
more
of
the
22
local
businesses
in
their
area
as
they
go
out
to
23
procure
things
with
Federal
money.
The
key
here
is
24
there's
stipulations
with
the
money
that
you
get
from
25
EPA,
and
when
you
sign
up
for
the
funding
this
is
part
0087
1
of
what
comes
with
it.
2
And
basically
we're
saying
that
minorities,
3
minority
contractors
and
woman,
those
that
we've
4
identified
that
fall
in
that
category,
should
have
a
5
fair
share
of
an
opportunity
to
participate
in
the
6
process.
But
they
can't
do
that
if
they
don't
know.
7
A
lot
of
times
what
we
hear
and
see
is
they
8
haven't
been
included
because
this
system
has
not
9
availed
itself
to
them.
The
good
ole
boy
network
is
10
still
alive
and
well.
And
even
amongst
some
of
the
11
tribes,
some
of
the
larger
tribes,
when
we
looked
at
12
some
of
the
reports,
a
couple
years
back
a
lot
of
the
13
tribes
were
not
going
to
minority
businesss.
And
maybe
14
they
couldn't
depending
on
what
it
was
that
they
were
15
doing.
16
But
we're
saying
that
there
are
a
lot
of
17
minority
businesses,
tribally
owned,
etc.,
that
are
out
18
there
that
exist,
that
can
do
the
work,
and
they
need
19
to
know
about
this,
and
they
need
to
be
included
into
20
the
fold.
We
see
that
as
good
­­
making
good
21
businesses
sense,
keeping
a
lot
of
the
money
in
the
22
local
community
instead
of
taking
it
some
place
else
to
23
help
build
those
communities
up.
24
This
is
not
an
affirmative
action
program.
25
We
don't
see
it
as
that.
It's
an
outreach
program.
0088
1
What
I
say
to
the
contractors
is
money
is
green.
They
2
don't
­­
as
long
as
it's
legal
­­
they
don't
care
where
3
it's
coming
from.
They
just
need
to
know
how
to
go
4
about
getting
it
and
what
the
process
is.
And
so
we're
5
saying
recipients
of
Federal
funding,
their
process
6
needs
to
be
open
and
fair
across
the
board.
7
Now,
if
minority
contractors
are
out
there
8
and
they
can't
do
it
or
their
prices
are
excessive,
9
then
you
don't
have
to
go
to
them.
Document
your
file
10
though
in
terms
of
what
it
is
you
did
and
why
and
move
11
on.
And
with
the
documentation
I
think
it
speaks
for
12
itself,
it
should.
13
MS.
BAYLESS:
Does
the
documentation
have
to
14
be
attached
to
the
form?
15
MS.
BROWN:
It
should
be
in
your
grant
file,
16
because
we
will
be
doing
reviews
to
check,
and
if
you
17
have
substantiated
or
more
information
that
the
MBE/
WBE
18
coordinator
needs,
then
by
all
means
you
need
to
send
19
it
to
them.
20
MS.
PATRICK:
Things
regarding
the
six
21
affirmative
steps
and
the
efforts
you've
made
to
go
out
22
and
find
businesses,
that
type
of
thing,
needs
to
be
23
documented
in
your
grant
file.
In
terms
of
what
goes
24
on
the
reporting
form,
we're
looking
at
your
25
procurement
dollars
and
what
you
actually
procured
and
0089
1
spent
and
in
what
areas
you
spent
them.
That's
what
2
that
form
is
intended
to
capture.
3
It
doesn't
really
capture
your
affirmative
4
efforts
to
go
out
and
find
them.
Those
things
need
to
5
be
in
the
file,
the
things
that
you
actually
spent
go
6
on
the
form.
7
MS.
McPEAK:
The
one
thing
about
the
8
reporting
and
about
the
documentation,
we
do
mention
9
the
reporting
right
now.
We
have
to
enter
the
reports
10
into
a
data
base,
and
we
do
keep
track
of
who
is
11
reporting
and
who
is
not
reporting.
12
As
for
a
review
of
your
files
of
the
13
procurement,
normally
when
those
will
be
done
is
14
through
a
postaward
monitoring
visit.
I
don't
know
if
15
you
heard
about
those
or
not
because
you
haven't
been
16
selected,
but
we
are
selecting
tribes
to
go
out
and
17
look
at
their
management
systems
that
they
have
in
18
place.
19
And
one
of
the
management
systems
that
we
20
will
be
looking
at
is
your
procurement
system,
whether
21
you
have
the
proper
procurement
procedures
in
place,
22
whether
they're
written
down,
whether
you're
following
23
those
procurement
procedures.
And
one
of
the
24
procurement
procedures
that's
also
going
to
be
looked
25
at
is
this
one
with
minority
and
woman
businesses.
0090
1
There's
a
condition
in
every
single
grant
2
that
goes
out
concerning
the
use
of
good
faith
methods
3
to
get
as
many
of
the
minorities
and
women
contractors
4
a
chance
to
get
a
piece
of
the
Federal
money.
And
so
5
we
will
be
looking
at
that
during
our
postaward
6
monitoring
visits.
7
Also,
maybe
the
MBE/
WBE
coordinator
will
come
8
out
just
to
do
a
review
of
your
procuments
and
see
how
9
you're
doing,
so
do
keep
the
documentation.
10
MS.
BROWN:
Marie,
does
everybody
know
that
11
Marie
now
is
your
MBE/
WBE
coordinator
for
Region
X?
12
No?
Marie,
give
them
your
phone
number.
13
MS.
McPEAK:
Right
now
I'm
located
in
the
14
Grants
Administration
Unit,
OMP­
145,
and
that's
1200
15
6th
Avenue,
Seattle,
98101.
My
phone
number
is
(
206)
16
553­
2894,
and
my
fax
number
is
(
206)
553­
0151.
And
if
17
you
have
any
questions
concerning
reporting
or
the
fair
18
share
goals
and
whether
they
apply
to
you,
any
19
information
that
you
need
on
how
to
comment
on
the
20
proposed
rule,
just
give
me
a
call
or
send
me
an
21
e­
mail.
22
My
e­
mail
address
is
mcpeak.
marie@
epa.
gov,
23
and
we'll
be
able
to
help
you
as
much
as
we
can.
If
I
24
don't
have
the
answers,
I
can
always
contact
25
headquarters
or
one
of
the
other
regional
coordinators
0091
1
also.
2
MR.
ANDREWS:
A
couple
other
questions
just
3
probably
because
I
wasn't
in
the
session
before.
As
I
4
understand
it
the
DBE,
that's
Disadvantaged
Business
5
Entity
­­
6
MS.
BROWN:
Enterprise.
7
MR.
ANDREWS:
­­
Enterprise.
Thank
you.
Just
8
trying
to
get
language
right
here.
That
incorporates
9
both
what
was
minority
and
woman
owned
or
controlled
10
entities;
is
that
correct?
11
MS.
PATRICK:
It
doesn't
incorporate
12
everybody,
veterans,
minority,
woman,
yes.
13
MS.
BROWN:
The
labor
surplus
­­
I
mean,
it's
14
everybody.
15
MR.
ANDREWS:
And
as
far
as
the
language
goes
16
it
says
controlled
­­
owned
or
controlled
by
an
17
individual.
Does
this
include
tribal
owned
instead
of
18
­­
not
owned
by
a
tribal
member,
but
if
a
company
is
19
owned
or
a
­­
20
MS.
PATRICK:
If
it's
owned
by
a
consortium?
21
MR.
ANDREWS:
Yeah,
consortium
or
if
the
I
22
tribe
itself
does
some
subcontracting
work
or
something
23
that
can
fall
under
this
as
well?
24
MS.
PATRICK:
It
does
apply.
It
also
applies
25
to
joint
ventures.
We
have
different
categories,
but
0092
1
it
does
apply
as
long
as
the
­­
like
for
­­
let's
say
2
the
­­
as
long
as
the
entity
is
owned
by
the
tribe,
is
3
51
percent
owned
or
controlled
by
the
tribe,
the
itself
4
would
be
the
disadvantaged
portion
of
it.
The
business
5
needs
to
be
51
percent
owned
and
control
or
owned
or
6
controlled
depending
on
which
statute
­­
we'll
get
into
7
that
later
­­
by
the
tribe
itself.
It
cannot
be
a
8
situation
where
the
tribe
owns
40
and
some
other
entity
9
that
is
not
socially
disadvantaged
or
not
a
minority
10
could
not
own
the
majority
percentage,
so
it
applies
to
11
that.
12
MR.
ANDREWS:
So
that
would
also
be
tribal,
a
13
consortia
controlled
by
­­
an
entity
controlled
by
more
14
than
one
tribe
would
be
eligible
as
well.
15
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes.
16
MR.
ANDREWS:
Okay.
Thank
you.
17
MS.
McPEAK:
One
thing,
too,
that
I
wanted
to
18
clarify.
Just
because
it's
a
tribally
owned
business
19
doesn't
necessarily
mean
that
it
qualifies
as
a
20
minority
or
woman
business.
It
has
to
qualify
as
a
21
small
business
first,
then
as
a
minority
or
woman
owned
22
or
tribally
owned
business.
So
it
does
have
to
qualify
23
as
a
small
business
first.
24
So
like
if
a
tribe
owns
a
casino,
it's
not
25
classified
as
a
small
business
if
it
has
income
over
a
0093
1
certain
amount.
2
MS.
PATRICK:
The
problem
is
this:
When
it
3
comes
down
­­
when
it
come
down
to
the
actual
4
certification
part,
okay,
let's
say
­­
let
me
say,
5
first
of
all,
EPA
does
not
have
or
does
not
recognize
6
or
have
a
small
size
­­
a
size
standard
for
small
7
business.
In
our
regulations
we
don't
have
that.
8
So
the
only
categories
that
we
do
recognize
9
would
be
the
disadvantages
status:
The
minority,
the
10
women,
service
disabled
veterans,
that
type
of
thing,
11
labor
surplus
as
well.
12
And
so
to
the
extent
that
the
way
we
work
13
with
an
individual
who
has
a
tribally
own
business,
14
they're
a
tribe
member.
I
own
my
own
­­
I
make
widgets
15
or
something
you
know
or
a
consulting
firm.
What
would
16
happen
is
the
net
worth
requirement
that's
in
the
rule,
17
the
$
750,000
net
worth
requirement,
would
apply
to
the
18
individual
who
owns
the
business?
19
Now,
in
terms
of
something
­­
we
were
talking
20
about
a
consortia,
this,
that
and
the
third
or
a
large
21
tribally
owned
business
­­
let
me
think
before
I
answer
22
that
question.
I
need
to
turn
to
the
right
provision
23
here
and
make
sure
I'm
right
before
I
say
it,
but
it's
24
applied
a
little
bit
differently
because
of
that,
and
25
so
that
part
has
been
taken
into
consideration.
0094
1
What
I'm
trying
to
say
is
that
the
2
disadvantage
status
would
still
exist
to
a
large
degree
3
because
of
the
fact
the
EPA
does
not
really
recognize
4
or
have
a
classification
for
a
small
­­
the
small
5
business
entity.
6
MS.
BROWN:
She's
going
to
look
for
that
7
citation
because
we
did
address
that
to
give
you
the
8
exact
reading
in
the
rule
in
terms
of
what
we
say
about
9
tribally
owned
businesses
or
joint
ventures.
10
MS.
McPEAK:
Because
what
I
was
thinking
of
11
is
like
the
Coeur
d'Alene
Tribe
owned
this
particular
12
casino,
okay.
They
may
not
own
it
totally
but
they
13
have
the
majority
of
the
­­
of
the
shares
in
the
14
particular
casino,
probably
51
percent
owned
and
15
operated
by
the
tribe.
16
Now,
they
had
to
get
space
in
this
building
17
which
the
tribe,
themselves,
like
they're
environmental
18
department,
may
have
had
to
pay
for
space
in
the
19
casino.
Could
they
count
the
amount
that
they
spent
20
for
the
rooms
in
this
casino
as
­­
can
they
put
that
on
21
their
report
as
going
to
the
minority
business?
22
MS.
BROWN:
She's
looking
that
up
in
the
23
rule.
I'm
not
going
to
try.
My
attorney
is
looking
it
24
up.
25
MS.
PATRICK:
What
was
your
question?
0095
1
MS.
McPEAK:
Like
the
Coeur
d'Alene
Tribe
2
probably
has
a
controlling
interest
in
this
particular
3
casino.
But
the
department
that
is
actually
putting
on
4
the
conference
might
have
had
to
put
up
money
for
these
5
particular
rooms.
So
since
it
is
a
tribally
owned
and
6
controlled
business,
when
they
sent
in
the
report
­­
7
because
we
gave
them
a
GAP
grant
to
do
this
particular
8
conference
­­
can
they
report
what
they
paid
for
the
9
casino
as
minority
participation
on
their
quarterly
10
reports?
11
MS.
PATRICK:
I'm
looking
that
up.
12
MS.
BROWN:
My
guess
is
yes
that
they
can.
13
MS.
PATRICK:
Currently,
right
now,
as
we
14
currently
operate
­­
because
this
rule
is
not
in
effect
15
yet
­­
most
definitely
they
could.
16
MS.
McPEAK:
Okay.
17
MR.
ANDREWS:
My
question
was
specifically
18
the
tribe
as
an
entity
which
is
not
a
business.
So
I
19
mean,
tribes
spin
off
businesses
in
some
other
arenas
20
off
of
casinos
like
a
separate
entity
that's
tribally
21
owned.
But
if
a
tribe
itself
wanted
to
do
consulting
22
to
another
tribe,
let's
stay,
would
that
be
considered
23
­­
and,
obviously,
then
you
wouldn't
want
the
750
K
to
24
apply
because
their
net
worth
­­
the
tribe
owns
25
reservation
property
­­
I
would
assume
most
tribes
are
0096
1
worth
a
lot
more
than
­­
2
MS.
BROWN:
It's
a
different
calculation,
I
3
believe.
She's
looking
for
the
citation.
I'm
going
to
4
start
over,
and
then
when
she
finds
it,
she's
going
to
5
stop
me
and
we're
going
to
answer
that.
So
I'm
going
6
to
go
back
to
where
we
were
and
how
we
started
this
7
morning
talking
about
the
rule,
because
there
are
new
8
people
here
now,
and
for
their
benefit,
they
came
in
as
9
we
were
concluding
so
they
can
get
what
we
went
through
10
this
morning.
11
MS.
DAVIDSON:
If
you
do
leave
would
mind
you
12
completing
that
survey
for
me?
If
you
do
leave
just
13
leave
it
on
the
table
and
I'll
pick
it
up.
I
14
appreciate
it.
I
really
need
those
completed.
15
MS.
BROWN:
And
we
also
need
to
make
sure
16
that
everybody
has
signed
in.
17
MS.
DAVIDSON:
Everybody
signed
in,
but
I
18
need
the
evaluation
sheet.
19
MS.
BROWN:
And
she
needs
the
evaluation
20
sheet.
Okay.
Let
me
say
this
as
I
start,
that
this
is
21
a
proposed
rule
on
our
MBE/
WBE
program.
If
you
are
a
22
grant
recipient
from
the
EPA
this
applies
to
you.
This
23
is
not
in
effect
yet,
and
it
is
being
proposed
that
24
when
­­
once
the
rule
becomes
final,
it
will
be
phased
25
in
over
a
three­
year
period
for
the
tribes
totally.
A
0097
1
lot
of
what
we'll
talk
about
are
things
that
are
2
already
in
place
and
should
be
already
in
process.
And
3
so
as
we
talk
about
it,
if
you're
not
doing
it,
it's
4
something
to
think
about.
5
One
of
the
things
­­
one
of
the
first
changes
6
that
we're
recommending
is
that
the
name
be
changed,
as
7
the
gentleman
just
stated,
from
MBE/
WBE
to
the
DBE
8
program,
and
a
DBE
is
defined
as
an
entity
owned
and/
or
9
controlled
by
an
individual
who
is
socially
and
10
economically
disadvantaged
under
either
the
EPA's
8
11
percent
or
10
percent
statutes,
as
well
as
small
12
business
enterprises,
labor
surplus
area,
firm
or
small
13
business
in
a
rural
area.
14
One
of
the
major
changes
is
certification,
15
and
these
are
the
changes
that
are
being
proposed:
16
Under
the
proposal
there
will
be
three
changes
to
the
17
current
certification
requirements
in
order
to
satisfy
18
the
Adarand
decision.
For
those
of
you
that
are
new,
19
we
talked
in
general
this
morning
about
the
Adarand
20
decision.
That's
a
decision
that
went
to
the
Supreme
21
Court
and
became
the
law
of
the
land
back
in
1995.
22
There
was
a
challenge
to
one
of
the
state
23
programs
out
in
the
state
of
Colorado
in
terms
24
procurement
practices
that
they
were
doing
at
the
local
25
level.
It
escalated
to
the
Supreme
Court,
thus
we
got
0098
1
the
Adarand
decision.
2
EPA
is
the
last
agency
to
go
through
this
3
process.
DOT
went
first.
We've
been
working
with
the
4
Department
of
Justice
on
the
rule.
Because
the
5
Department
of
Transportation
has
a
much
larger
program
6
it
was
recommended
that
they
would
go
first.
They
have
7
done
so,
and
I
think
their
rule
has
been
out
now
in
8
final
probably
for
about
a
year,
year
and
a
half,
and
9
EPA
was
the
last
one
to
come
on
board.
10
Basically,
there
are
three
agencies
that
have
11
a
similar
program
like
this.
Most
people
are
familiar
12
with
the
State
DOT
program.
EPA
has
one,
and
so
does
13
NASA.
And
NASA
does
not
do
their
grants
like
we,
so
14
I'm
not
sure
what
they're
doing.
So
basically
EPA
and
15
DOT
are
the
ones
that
have
gone
through
the
process
or
16
who
are
going
through
the
process.
17
Certification
we
will
no
longer
accept
an
MBE
18
self­
certification.
Right
now
if
I
were
to
go
in
and
19
say
I'm
a
minority
and
I
own
my
own
business,
I
check
a
20
box
and
that's
all
that
is
needed.
Once
this
rule
21
kicks
in,
we
need
more.
You
need
to
be
certified,
and
22
we'll
go
into
a
little
bit
more
detail.
23
We
recognize
­­
will
recognize
MBE
24
certifications
from
entities
owned
and
controlled
by
25
socially
or
economically
disadvantaged
individuals
0099
1
under
either
one
of
our
statutes:
The
8
percent
or
the
2
10
percent,
or
we
will
recognize
someone
who
is
3
certified
by
a
state,
a
local
government,
tribal
4
government
or
private
certifiers
provided
that
their
5
criteria
matches
ours.
6
There
are
a
lot
of
certifying
programs
out
7
there
but
they
may
not
be
at
the
same
statutory
level
8
or
meet
the
criteria
that
we
have
established.
For
9
example,
under
the
State
DOT
program,
they
do
not
10
require
you
to
be
a
citizen
of
the
United
States.
11
Under
ours,
we
do.
So
if
you
were
certified
by
DOT,
12
but
you're
not
a
citizen,
you
would
have
to
come
to
EPA
13
to
get
certified
for
our
program.
14
And
the
criteria
is
that
­­
that
we
use
­­
is
15
out
of
Section
8
(
a)(
5)
and
(
6)
of
the
Small
Business
16
Act
and
SBA's
8(
a)
Business
Development
Program
17
regulations,
that's
the
8(
a)
program.
We
currently
18
accept
state
certifications
without
there
having
to
19
adhere
to
these
criteria.
But
once
the
rule
becomes
20
final
that
will
change.
21
Again,
let
me
say
that
we
will
not
accept
22
under
the
proposed
rule
certifications
that
have
been
23
made
for
people
who
are
not
citizens.
We
are
requiring
24
that
you
first
­­
that
an
entity
first
try
to
become
25
certified
as
an
MBE
or
WBE
by
SBA
or
DOT
first
or
under
0100
1
a
tribal
government
or
from
a
tribal
government
or
2
state
or
local
government
first.
3
When
all
else
fails,
and
they
can't
get
it
4
that
way,
given
the
example
that
I
just
gave
you:
If
5
they
got
certified
by
DOT
but
they
were
not
citizens,
6
to
comply
with
our
program
they
would
have
to
come
to
7
us
for
certification.
8
We
don't
want
to
be
in
the
certification
9
business,
but
because
of
the
law
of
land
we
are,
so
10
we're
trying
to
utilize
those
programs
that
are
already
11
in
effect
first.
And
quit
frankly,
it
will
do
you
­­
12
you'll
get
a
lot
more
mileage
out
of
it,
the
businesses
13
the
entities
will,
if
they
get
it
from
an
SBA
or
DOT,
14
because
theirs
we
accept
and
other
people
accept
15
theirs.
Ours
only
applies
to
us
right
now
the
way
it
16
stands.
17
MS.
McPEAK:
Which
agencies
accept
18
certifications
of
noncitizens?
19
MS.
BROWN:
DOT.
20
MS.
McPEAK:
DOT
does?
21
MS.
BROWN:
DOT
does.
22
MS.
McPEAK:
You
don't
know?
23
MS.
BROWN:
SBA
does
not.
24
MS.
McPEAK:
Okay.
25
MS.
BROWN:
DOT
does,
and
we
are
following
0101
1
and
trying
to
come
close
in
line
with
the
entire
2
Federal
government.
SBA
is
the
policy
maker
there,
and
3
so
that's
why
we're
following
them.
4
We
currently
envision
that
there
are
about
5
five
categories
of
individuals
or
groups
who
will
not
6
qualify
for
MBE/
WBE
certification
programs
from
SBA
or
7
DOT
due
to
the
differences
in
those
agencies'
8
respective
programs.
These
categories
include:
Woman
9
owned
businesses
and
minority
owned
businesses
that
do
10
not
meet
the
SBA/
DOT
size
standard,
disabled
American
11
owned
businesses,
private
and
voluntary
organizations
12
controlled
by
individuals
who
are
socially
and
13
economically
disadvantaged.
This
goes
to
our
10
14
percent
statute.
15
Entities
which
are
certified
under
criteria
16
which
is
inconsistent
with
EPA's
DBE
program,
that's
17
under
both
the
8
percent
and
10
percent,
similar
to
18
what
I
just
said
about
the
State
DOT
program,
and
an
19
entity
claiming
that
it
is
owned
or
controlled
by
20
socially
and
economically
disadvantaged
individuals
21
under
the
EPA's
8
percent
statute.
22
MR.
ANDREWS:
Scott
Andrews,
Swinombis
23
Tribe.
There's
a
number
of
references
to
the
EPA's
8
24
percent
and
10
percent
statutes.
What
statutes
is
this
25
regulations
referring
back
to?
0102
1
MS.
PATRICK:
The
regulation
actually
is
2
going
to
apply
to
both
programs,
and
what
the
really
3
sticking
part
is,
which
will
really
be
on
our
end,
when
4
someone
comes
to
get
certified,
is
under
which
5
statute?
6
MR.
ANDREWS:
And
that's
my
question,
which
7
statutes
are
we
talking
about?
8
MS.
PATRICK:
EPA's
8
percent
is
under
the
9
Clean
Water
Act
and
the
10
percent
is
under
the
Clean
10
Air.
For
reasons,
whoever
the
rocket
scientist
was
who
11
wrote
the
two,
that
­­
there's
one
word
that
makes
the
12
distinction
huge.
13
Under
one
statute
the
requirement
is
owned
14
and
controlled.
Under
the
other
owned
or
controlled.
15
And
while
it's
one
word
there's
a
huge
difference
16
between
the
two
standards.
So
we
couldn't
go
back
and
17
change
the
statute,
so
we
had
to
sort
of
make
a
rule
18
that
would
encompass
both
ways.
So
it's
a
little
19
confusing
but
it's
not
­­
it's
not
­­
it's
more
20
internally
confusing
in
terms
of
how
we
go
about
21
running
the
certification
process
than
it
is
to
the
22
person
applying,
and
so
it's
weird.
That's
the
best
I
23
can
say
about
it.
24
MR.
ANDREWS:
I'm
not
familiar
with
the
25
sections
of
those
statutes.
I've
been
focused
more
on
0103
1
the
programmatic.
I'm
wondering
if
you
could
give
me
2
the
section
numbers
of
those
two
statutes
so
that
I
can
3
look
them
up?
4
MS.
PATRICK:
Sure,
it's
in
the
­­
well,
you
5
don't
have
a
copy
of
the
rule
book?
6
MR.
ANDREWS:
Or
you
can
look
that
up
and
7
give
that
to
me.
I
don't
have
to
have
you
say
it.
8
MS.
BROWN:
Okay.
She's
going
to
look
it
9
up.
The
other
thing
is
that
­­
10
MR.
ANDREWS:
Thank
you.
11
MS.
BROWN:
­­
woman
businesses
would
have
to
12
be
certified
as
well.
Right
now
they're
not
required
13
to.
There
is
a
pending
rule
or
policy
at
SBA,
and
it's
14
been
pending
now
for
a
couple
of
years,
three
years
15
maybe,
to
certify
woman.
But
that's
been
put
on
hold,
16
and
we
don't
know
where
that's
going,
but
we
know
it's
17
being
considered.
18
UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
Actually,
they
do
19
certify
women
occasionally
but
you
have
to
make
a
case.
20
MS.
BROWN:
To
be
certified?
21
UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
To
be
certified.
They
22
just
don't
accept
you
because
you're
a
woman.
23
MS.
BROWN:
It's
not
the
norm.
A
practical
24
effect
if
these
provisions
are
adopted
is
that,
again,
25
we
talk
about
the
$
750,000
net
worth
of
the
0104
1
individual.
Anybody
having
a
net
worth
more
than
2
750,000
will
be
precluded
from
initial
eligibility.
So
3
the
entity
that
owns
it
has
to
have
a
net
worth
less
4
than
750,000,
and
that's
the
standard
that's
5
established
by
SBA.
6
MS.
PATRICK:
I
have
your
cites:
For
the
8
7
percent
statute
it's
42
USC
4370(
d),
as
in
David.
8
MR.
ANDREWS:
437
(
d)?
9
MS.
PATRICK:
No
4370
(
d)
as
in
David.
10
MS.
BROWN:
Is
it
42
or
43?
11
MS.
PATRICK:
4370
(
d).
I'll
say
it
again.
12
The
citation
for
EPA's
8
statute
is
42
USC
4370
(
d)
as
13
in
David.
For
the
10
percent
statute
it's
42
USC
14
7601.
15
MS.
BAYLESS:
How
long
does
it
take
a
person
16
or
small
business
to
go
through
the
certification?
17
MS.
BROWN:
The
process
varies
depending
on
18
your
package,
depending
on
who
you
go
to
and
where.
19
For
SBA
it
could
take
anywhere
from
three
to
nine
20
months
or
maybe
even
a
year.
For
some
states,
local
21
entities,
it
could
be
a
lot
faster.
22
The
one
thing
that
we
are
saying
­­
that
I'm
23
saying
is,
I
don't
recommend
anybody
to
go
pay
to
get
24
certified,
because
you
still
have
to
go
through
­­
25
especially
if
you're
going
through
SBA,
your
package
0105
1
will
still
end
up
in
that
pile
the
way
that
it
is
when
2
it
came
in,
and
it
really
doesn't
garner
anything.
3
All
of
the
forms
are
there
on
the
Internet
at
4
the
SBA
website.
Electronically
you
can
get
those,
5
have
access
to
it
and
just
fill
it
out
and
work
with
6
the
people
in
terms
of
the
cause
that
they
may
have
or
7
you're
calling
them
to
find
out
how
long
is
it
going
to
8
take.
9
If
there's
situation
­­
and
we've
been
able
10
to
do
this
in
the
direct
procurement
side
here
at
EPA
11
­­
if
somebody
is
waiting
on,
or
a
certification
is
12
pending
and
an
award
is
tied
that,
or
they're
waiting
13
and
they
can't
get
their
award
or
it
would
hurt
them
if
14
they
didn't
have
it,
we've
been
able
to
call
SBA
to
see
15
if
they
could
speed
it
up
sometimes
they
do.
Sometimes
16
they
don't.
It
depends
on
the
form
and
if
everything
17
is
completed
and
so
it's
a
case­
by­
case
basis.
18
MS.
BAYLESS:
Another
question
I
had
was
for
19
the
net
worth
of
750,000
is
that
for
the
business
or
20
their
personal
net
worth?
21
MS.
BROWN:
The
personal
net
worth.
22
MS.
BAYLESS:
That
would
include
their
23
private
land,
their
house,
their
­­
24
MS.
BROWN:
Personal
net.
25
UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
Actually,
it's
not
the
0106
1
land.
It
gets
real
tricky.
You
have
to
read
the
2
regulations
about
how
net
worth
is
calculated,
and
it's
3
just
so
complicated
you
have
to
like
read
it,
4
especially,
for
a
tribally
owned
enterprise.
It
would
5
be
­­
you
need
to
have
the
regulations.
6
MS.
BROWN:
We
refer
you
to
go
back
to
that
7
part
of
the
statute
to
take
a
look
at
that.
8
MS.
BAYLESS:
What
part
of
the
statute
is
9
that?
10
MS.
PATRICK:
I
gave
it
to
a
lady
this
11
morning.
It's
page
43.
12
MS.
BROWN:
She's
got
to
find
that
statute.
13
MS.
PATRICK:
I
know
where
that
one
is.
The
14
part
of
the
regulations
under
the
Small
Business
Act
15
which
addresses
the
definitions
for
a
lot
of
the
16
things:
Ownership
control
and
a
lot
of
those
things
is
17
at
13
CFR
124.104
­­
I'm
sorry
­­
.103
through
106.
18
And
there
are
also
special
rules
that
are
applicable
to
19
Indian
tribes
found
at
13
CFR
124.109.
20
MS.
BROWN:
And
they're
all
on
the
Internet,
21
all
the
on
the
Internet.
22
MS.
PATRICK:
And
also,
I
have
an
answer,
or
23
partial
answer,
to
the
question
I
was
supposed
to
be
24
looking
up
before.
I
couldn't
get
a
dial
tone
out
so
I
25
couldn't
verify
it
to
pull
up
the
actual
statute.
But
0107
1
our
rule
currently
­­
the
proposed
rural
currently
2
states
that
under
joint
ventures,
it
says
a
joint
3
venture
may
be
considered
owned
and
controlled
by
4
socially,
economically
disadvantaged
individuals
not
5
withstanding
the
size
of
the
joint
venture.
6
So
while
that
applies
to
joint
ventures
my
7
thinking
is
because
the
size
is
not
taken
into
account
8
with
such
a
thing,
when
we're
talking
about
a
business
9
owned
by
the
tribe,
my
common
sense
thinking
is
that
10
the
net
worth
of
the
tribe
is
not
going
to
be
a
11
consideration.
12
Because
if
we
don't
consider
it
with
a
joint
13
venture,
I'm
sure
we
could
not
consider
it
with
a
14
tribally
owned
type
of
thing
or
consortia.
So
that's
15
my
thinking,
but
I'm
still
going
to
try
to
pull
up
­­
16
going
to
try
another
phone
jack
around
here
to
see
if
I
17
can
get
another
line
out
and
find
out
exactly
what
it
18
states.
But
that's
my
common
sense
answer
for
right
19
now,
because
it
would
make
sense
to
apply
it
on
one
20
half
and
not
on
the
other.
21
MS.
BROWN:
The
other
thing
is
the
good
faith
22
efforts,
that's
a
change.
The
six
affirmative
steps
23
and
40
CFR
Part
31
and
the
six
positive
efforts
in
40
24
CFR
Part
30
are
being
combined
to
now
be
known
as
the
25
good
faith
efforts
and
this
is
new.
Right
now
we
call
0108
1
them
the
six
affirmative
steps
basically.
We're
2
combining
those
two
parts
and
calling
them
good
faith
3
efforts.
4
And
that's
basically
going
through
the
5
process
of
identifying
what
you're
doing
to
be
6
inclusive
of
minority
and
woman
owned
businesses
in
7
your
process
as
you
go
out
to
procure
or
your
prime
8
contractor
does.
Documentation
is
the
key
to
your
9
files,
documenting
what
you
do,
what
your
findings
10
were.
11
Under
the
contract
administration
provisions
12
we
are
proposing
that
a
recipient
must
be
notified
in
13
writing
by
its
prime
contractor
to
any
kind
of
14
termination
or
any
termination
of
a
DBE
subcontractor,
15
and
this
is
to
prevent
the
bait
and
switch
or
the
16
switch
and
bait
that
they
do.
They
say
the
have
17
somebody.
We
see
a
name
and
then
once
the
contract
is
18
awarded,
they
never
get
the
work.
19
When
a
DBE
subcontractor
fails
to
complete
20
its
work
under
a
subcontract
for
any
reason,
the
21
recipients
must
require
the
prime
contractor,
the
22
recipient
being
you,
to
make
good
faith
efforts
in
23
hiring
another
subcontractor
undertaking
the
six
24
affirmative
steps
or
positive
efforts.
25
The
other
one
­­
and
this
is
a
big
one
­­
a
0109
1
recipient
must
require
his
prime
contractor
to
make
2
good
faith
efforts
even
if
the
fair
share
objectives
3
have
been
met.
On
some
of
these,
especially
in
our
4
drink
water
programs,
they
may
make
­­
meet
the
good
5
faith
efforts
and
still
have
a
lot
more
that
they
could
6
do.
7
We're
saying
that
you
don't
stop,
that
you
8
continue
as
the
program
is
going
on,
even
after
you've
9
exceeded
your
goal
or
met
it.
We're
stressing
that
10
they
a
recipient
must
require
its
prime
contractor
to
11
pay
its
subcontractor
for
satisfactory
performance
12
within
a
specific
number
of
days
from
the
prime
13
contractor's
receipt
of
payment
from
the
recipient.
14
This
means
that
a
prime
contractor
has
to
pay
15
its
subcontractor
in
a
timely
manner.
If
he
is
gets
16
paid,
then
you
should
require
that
he
pays
the
17
subcontractor
within
10
or
15
days
after
he
gets
paid.
18
I'm
not
saying
10
or
15
days
is
the
number.
We're
19
saying
in
a
timely
manner.
20
A
recipient
must
require
completion
of
some
21
new
forms
to
prevent
the
bait
and
switch.
22
MS.
PATRICK:
The
actual
program
forms.
23
MS.
BROWN:
The
new
forms,
we
don't
have
­­
24
practice
at
the
subcontract
level
where
a
prime
25
contractor
could
circumvent
the
spirit
of
the
program,
0110
1
the
forms
will
be
completed
by
either
the
prime
2
contractor
or
the
DBE
subcontractor
depending
on
the
3
applicable
forms,
and
those
forms
are
being
developed.
4
They
will
completed
by
the
end
of
the
rule.
5
Submission
of
fair
share
goals:
The
rule
6
will
require
that
the
recipient
submit
its
proposed
7
fair
share
goals
in
supporting
documentation
to
the
8
agency
­­
and
that's
really
to
your
MBE/
WBE
coordinator
9
­­
no
later
than
90
days
after
its
acceptance
of
the
10
assistance
award.
11
Let
me
say
that
again.
A
recipient
must
­­
12
is
required
to
submit
its
proposed
fair
share
13
objectives
and
supporting
documentation
to
the
agency
14
no
laying
later
than
90
days
after
its
acceptance
of
15
the
assistance
award,
and
this
is
new.
A
recipient
16
will
not
be
able
to
spend
any
of
its
financial
17
assistance
award
for
procument
dollars
­­
and
that
18
procument
category
covers:
Equipment,
construction,
19
services
or
supplies
­­
until
the
fair
share
objective
20
has
been
met
in
terms
of
the
negotiations.
21
So
within
90
days
of
your
receiving
the
22
grant,
you
need
to
get
in
your
proposed
negotiations
to
23
your
coordinator
for
your
fair
share
goals.
Otherwise,
24
we
can
hold
up
your
procurement
dollars.
25
MR.
ANDREWS:
Do
we
need
to
­­
would
an
0111
1
applicant
have
to
have
a
fair
share
negotiation
for
2
each
grant
or
can
you
just
do
one
that
is
then
good
for
3
some
period
of
time?
4
MS.
BROWN:
We
do
one.
5
MS.
McPEAK:
They
have
to
­­
well,
if
you're
6
buying
similar
goods
and
services
with
all
of
your
7
grants
then
you
can
have
one
fair
share
negotiation.
8
If
you're
buying
different
supplies,
like
for
an
air
9
program
you
would
buy
different
supplies
than
if
you
10
were
having
a
water
program,
then
you
would
have
to
11
negotiate
those
fair
share
objectives
for
each
program,
12
so
it
depends
and
what
kinds
of
things
you're
buying.
13
MS.
BROWN:
We
want
to
make
sure
we're
14
comparing
apples
with
apples.
Some
states
some
how
15
they've
done
it,
they've
been
able
to
come
up
with
one
16
set
of
goals
across
the
board.
17
MS.
McPEAK:
They
said
for
equipment
we'll
18
have
this
goal,
for
supplies
we'll
have
this
goal
and
19
so
forth.
But
it
is
for
different
classifications.
20
They
may
have
goals
for
different
grants
that
they
do.
21
It's
up
to
the
agencies
though.
22
MR.
ANDREWS:
Okay.
Thank
you.
23
MS.
PATRICK:
The
goals,
once
they're
24
negotiated,
are
usually
good
for
three
years.
25
MS.
BROWN:
Right
now
that's
the
current
0112
1
practice
that's
been
in
place
for
three
years
and
then
2
we
go
back
and
ask
you
to
reassess
them,
and
if
you've
3
seen
any
changes
like
when
we
just
had
the
latest
4
census,
that
new
data
­­
that's
not
new
anymore
­­
but
5
when
that
came
out
we
asked
people
to
go
back
a
check.
6
We
leave
that
­­
and
we
go
back
to
you.
In
7
some
instances
people
came
in
and
renegotiated.
Some
8
of
the
goals
went
down,
some
of
them
went
up.
Others
9
said
that
our
goals
have
not
changed.
As
a
result
we
10
left
that
up
to
you.
11
And
I
will
say
that
I
think
a
memo
went
out
12
from
me
to
the
coordinators
recently,
hopefully,
that
13
the
current
goals
that
are
in
place
are
good
through
14
'
04.
Okay.
15
Determining
the
fair
share
goals:
A
big
16
change
from
the
current
requirements
is
that
a
nonstate
17
agency
recipient
will
be
able
to
use
a
state
agency's
18
MBE/
WBE
fair
share
objectives
only
if
it
uses
the
same
19
or
substantially
similar,
relevant
geographic
market
20
for
its
procurement
for
construction,
equipment,
21
services
or
supplies.
22
One
of
the
other
things
that
we
have
said
is,
23
we
mentioned
this
earlier,
as
tribal
governments
you
24
have
the
option
to
use
a
state
our
local
jurisdiction
25
goal
or
you
can
negotiate
directly
with
EPA
for
your
0113
1
own
trial
goal,
but
that's
your
option.
You
don't
have
2
to,
but
that's
an
option
that's
made
available
to
you.
3
In
calculating
the
fair
share
goals,
it's
a
4
lengthy
process,
Kimberly,
and
we
spelled
that
out
in
5
the
rule.
6
MS.
PATRICK:
Yeah,
I
think
we
kind
of
7
already
talked
about
that
when
we
said
it's
based
on
8
the
availability
analysis
and
disparity
studies.
And
9
if
the
state
has
done
a
disparity
study,
you
can
look
10
at
the
numbers
from
that
and
negotiate
your
goals
using
11
that
and
this,
that
and
the
third.
12
The
actual
rule
has
a
little
calculation
13
there
for
how
you
come
up
with
the
numbers.
It's
14
really
quite,
quite
simple
once
you
have
to
numbers
15
from
the
study
or
the
analysis
done,
and
so
we
sort
of
16
have
gone
­­
we
talked
about
that
already.
I
think
17
we're
almost
looping
back
around.
We're
almost
there.
18
The
next
­­
any
other
questions
about
that
19
part,
goal
negotiations
or
defining
them?
We
talked
20
about
the
race,
gender
conscious
efforts.
We
talked
21
about
the
record
keeping.
22
Exemptions,
I
don't
know
if
all
of
you
were
23
here
when
we
talked
about
exemptions
before.
But
there
24
are
exemptions
built
into
the
proposed
rule
that
would
25
exempt
entities
from
the
negotiation
of
the
fair
share
0114
1
goal.
It
is
not
an
exemption
from
reporting.
Remember
2
when
I
started,
reporting
is
good?
We
love
it.
3
Reporting
will
never
go
away,
but
there
are
exemptions,
4
would
be
for
any
single
grant
that
is
under
$
250,000
or
5
an
aggregate
of
grants
that
are
­­
that
total
less
than
6
$
250,000
in
any
one
given
fiscal
year
would
be
exempt
7
from
negotiations.
8
We
have
also
exempted
TAG
grants
to
tribes
9
and
also
grants
to
tribes
that
can
be
­­
that
are
PPG
10
eligible
or
that
can
be
rolled
into
a
PPG,
that
exempts
11
17
categories
of
grants
from
negotiations,
which
I
12
think
we
briefly
mentioned
a
little
bit
at
the
13
beginning.
14
MS.
BROWN:
I
think
we're
done.
15
MS.
PATRICK:
At
this
point
we
have
looped
16
back
around
to
where
we
started
when
we
came
in
at
the
17
session.
So
does
anybody
have
any
burning
questions
18
comments?
We
love
comments.
19
MS.
BROWN:
Again,
the
comment
period
closes
20
January
20th,
so
we
would
solicit
you
all
to
go
back,
21
take
this
to
your
tribes,
to
your
tribal
governments
to
22
your
leaders,
to
those
people
that
are
in
your
23
procurement
offices
and
get
your
comments
in
to
us.
24
The
other
thing
is
that
this
does
not
kick
in
25
until
the
rule
is
final.
We
anticipate
that
being
0115
1
another
year,
year
and
a
half
off.
2
MS.
WARREN:
My
name
is
Pat
Warren
from
the
3
Chilcott
Indian
Village
of
Cluquan.
I
was
going
to
ask
4
you
about
this,
the
comment
period,
you
said
still
have
5
several
sessions
such
as
today?
6
MR.
BROWN:
Yes,
ma'am.
7
MS.
WARREN:
And
lots
of
people
throughout
8
the
Untied
States
get
to
comment
on
this?
So
is
there
9
going
to
be
a
chance
­­
is
there
like
a
draft
proposal
10
that
will
be
out
to
where
we
can
see
what
­
what
all
11
the
comments
are?
12
MS.
PATRICK:
A
part
of
the
process
for
this
13
is,
when
the
comment
period
closes
our
responsibility
14
is
to
go
back
through
each
and
every
comment
we
15
receive.
At
that
point
the
comments
are
categorized
16
into
different
categories
based
on
the
sections
in
the
17
rule.
And
so
we'll
put
­­
lump
together
all
the
18
comments
we
got
regarding
certification,
all
the
ones
19
we
got
regard
reporting,
all
the
ones
we
got
regarding
20
the
fair
share
objectives.
21
Me
and
one
other
you
person
have
the
awesome
22
task
of
going
through
those
comments,
sifting
through
23
them
and
responding
­­
not
to
each
individual
comment,
24
but
if
we
get
several
comments
on
the
same
topic
we
can
25
respond
to
them
as
a
group
and
say,
where
we
­­
that
0116
1
actually
goes
back
on
the
Federal
Register
when
we
come
2
back
with
the
final
draft
of
the
rule.
We
have
to
3
discussion
how
we
handle
the
comments
we've
received.
4
So
let's
say
we
get
a
million
comments
saying
5
reporting
is
bad.
We
hate
it.
We
have
to
come
back
6
and
address
those
comments
as
a
group
or
if
there's
7
something
unique
that
comes
up
that's
different,
we
8
have
to
address
it
and
say,
we
took
this
into
9
consideration.
This
is
what
was
said
to
us.
These
are
10
the
reasons
why
we
think
reporting
is
good.
We
have
to
11
sort
of
respond
to
it
in
that
way
when
it
comes
back
12
out
again.
13
So,
yes,
to
answer
your
question.
The
14
comments
don't
just
come
in
adn
go
into
an
abyss
and
no
15
one
ever
says
anything
about
them.
We're
required
to
16
show
what
our
responses
were
to
the
comments
that
come
17
in.
18
MS.
BROWN:
We
won't
be
having
meetings,
any
19
more
meetings
though
after
January
20th.
20
MS.
PATRICK:
We
literally
have
a
meeting
on
21
January
20th,
so
we're
doing
­­
we
are
doing
hearings
22
up
until
the
last
drop
dead
day.
So
yeah,
that's
the
23
close
of
the
commentary.
And
I
also
should
say
that
24
particularly
this
wouldn't
apply
to
you
guys
because
25
we're
having
this
hearing
now.
Before
the
hearing
that
0117
1
we're
having
on
that
last
day,
we're
internally
2
deciding
to
give
the
comments
coming
from
­­
that's
3
going
to
be
in
San
Francisco
­­
so
the
comments
coming
4
from
Region
VIII
we're
giving
them
a
little
bit
more
5
time
to
get
them
in,
because
it
is
on
the
absolute
last
6
day
of
the
comment
period.
It's
not
very
fair
to
7
expect
people
to
turn
right
around
and
give
their
comments.
8
And
so
if
a
couple
others
happen
to
sneak
in
9
there,
we'll
go
ahead
and
look
at
those
as
well
if
10
they're
a
little
bit
late.
But
we're
encouraging
11
people
to
start
now.
Because
if
we
start
getting
12
comments
now,
I
can
actually
start
my
process
of
13
categorizing
and
responding
now
instead
of
doing
it
all
14
at
the
end,
so
that
helps
us
out
a
lot.
15
MS.
BAYLESS:
Michelle
Bayless
from
the
16
Native
Village
of
Tazlina.
Earlier
you
had
mentioned
17
something
about
the
training
and
learning
curve
time
18
for
tribes
to
assume
this
responsibility
of
procuring.
19
When
does
that
go
in
to
effect,
after
the
ruling
or
do
20
you
want
people
to
start
doing
this
now
and
start
21
reporting
now?
22
MS.
BROWN:
Reporting
is
already
a
23
requirement.
This
is
not
new,
and
so
if
you
haven't
24
been
reporting,
you
need
to
be
and
you
need
to
talk
to
25
your
MBE/
WBE
coordinate,
so
that
is
not
new.
0118
1
MS.
PATRICK:
In
terms
of
the
new
things
that
2
the
rule
is
bringing
about
like
the
negotiation
fair
3
share
objects,
which
is
a
major
new
part
for
the
4
tribes,
that's
something
­­
once
the
rule
goes
final
5
that's
when
the
three­
year
phasing
period
begins.
But
6
we're
­­
during
that
phasing
period
our
goal
is
to
go
7
out
and
do
as
much
education
as
we
can,
and
to
get
8
people
comfortable
with
fact
that
these
negotiations
9
are
going
to
have
to
be
done.
10
And
the
other
new
points
in
the
rule
11
regarding
certification
is
the
issue
to
give
the
tribes
12
time
to
make
sure
they're
up
to
speed
with
it
before
13
they're
held
fully
responsible
for
the
new
rule.
14
MS.
BROWN:
Now
some
tribes,
once
they've
15
done
it,
may
already
­­
they
may
not
have
the
benefit
16
of
the
full
three
years.
Some
may
already
be
large
17
enough
or
have
the
infrastructure
in
place
to
go
ahead
18
and
start
doing
it,
and
so
we
would
encourage
and
are
19
encouraging
them
to
do
it.
20
For
those
that
may
be
much
smaller
and
you
21
don't
have
the
infrastructure
we
got
a
three­
year
phase
22
in
period.
You
cannot
wait
until
the
last
month
of
the
23
three
years
to
say
I'm
getting
ready
to
get
started.
I
24
just
want
to
put
that
out
there,
that's
not
what
we're
25
talking
about.
0119
1
You're
looking
at
a
progression
of
efforts
2
being
made
and
working
with
us
and
we're
working
with
3
you
so
that
by
the
time
that
three­
year
period
is
up
4
everybody
is
up
and
running.
I'm
not
talking
about
5
waiting
until
the
last
month
before
­­
and
in
that
6
third
year
say,
oh,
I
think
I
better
get
ready
to
do
7
this.
So
that
means
we
need
a
dialog
between
you
and
8
your
coordinator
and
us.
We
can
do
that
if
we
want
to
9
do
that.
We're
not
saying
everybody
wait
until
the
10
last
minute.
11
MS.
BAYLESS:
Okay.
With
that
in
mind
12
Tazlina
has
a
procurement
process
that
is
slowly
13
becoming
alive.
Is
there
somebody
that
we
could
14
contact
to
run
that
procurement
process
through
to
see
15
if
it
is
in
line
with
what
is
required?
16
MS.
BROWN:
Start
talking
to
your
MBE/
WBE
17
coordinator.
She
will
in
turn
talk
to
her
attorneys
18
and
ours
and
we
can
begin
to
look
at
that
and
steer
19
you,
okay,
and
that's
a
good
thing,
that's
excellent.
20
MS.
PATRICK:
I
have
one
final
thing
to
say.
21
With
regard
to
the
question
that
I
was
asked,
I
cannot
22
get
a
line
to
save
my
life,
so
I'm
sorry
about
the
23
answer.
But
I
just
wanted
to
point
out
things
like
24
that
or
question
like
that
­­
we
make
mistakes,
because
25
reading
this
I'm
realizing
that's
an
error
we've
made.
0120
1
We
didn't
make
it
clear
in
terms
of
that
entire
2
category
of
business:
How
does
that
net
worth
3
requirement
apply?
4
As
you
say
it
applies,
but
I'm
like
wait
a
5
minute.
It
can't
apply.
It
doesn't
make
good
common
6
sense.
But
things
like
that
are
the
things
we
need
you
7
guys
to
help
with
because
we
could
read
this
thing
8
1,000
times
and
the
question
never
came
up
in
our
minds
9
in
terms
of
how
that
works.
10
My
personal
suggestion
may
be
to
comment
11
anonymously
myself
to
my
own
rule.
But
my
personal
12
thing
would
probably
be
to
say
that
it
doesn't
make
13
much
sense
to
apply
a
personal
net
worth
requirement
to
14
a
large
entity
that
owns
­­
that
owns
a
particular
15
business.
16
Because
we
­­
within
the
rule
we
talk
about
17
publicly
traded
companies.
Whereas,
we're
saying
that
18
if
any
one
individual
in
the
public
traded
company
has
19
that
­­
meets
those
requirements,
then
that
puts
them
20
in
the
correct
­­
they're
eligible
for
to
be
21
certified.
22
But
then
in
another
paragraph
we're
saying
23
that
if
you're
a
joint
venture,
that
their
personal
net
24
worth
requirement
doesn't
apply.
I'm
confused
and
so
25
if
I'm
confused,
I
know
you
guys
are
confused
and
0121
1
that's
something
we
need
to
work
out
and
find
a
good
2
answer
for.
3
MR.
ANDREWS:
To
follow
up
on
that.
Perhaps
4
the
wording
"
individual"
is
the
problem
as
well
as
5
specifically,
because
that
would
seem
to
look
towards
a
6
small,
privately
owned
business.
I
raised
the
issue
of
7
a
tribe,
that
really
­­
the
term
"
individual"
doesn't
8
fit
there
and
then
to
whom
would
you
apply
the
$
750,000
9
net
worth?
10
The
other
issue
that
I
think
you
kind
of
11
touched
on,
but
I
thought
it
might
be
kind
of
good
to
12
clarify
it
on
the
record,
would
be
a
publicly
owned
13
company,
who
would
be
the
individual?
You
know,
it
14
isn't
owned
that
way.
15
MS.
PATRICK:
That
one
is
actually
addressed
16
in
here.
There's
actually
language
in
here
that
17
specifically
talks
about
this.
Ownership
and
control:
18
The
entity
must
be
at
least
51
percent
owned
by
a
19
socially,
economically
disadvantaged
individual
or
in
20
the
case
of
a
publicly
traded,
at
least
51
percent
of
21
the
stock
must
be
owned
by
one
or
more
socially
and
22
economically
disadvantaged
individual,
and
the
23
management
and
daily
business
operations
of
the
24
business
concerned
must
be
controlled
by
such
25
individual.
So
it
speaks
to
the
publicly
traded
0122
1
company,
but
­­
2
MR.
ANDREWS:
But
my
point
is
you
still
have
3
the
problem
of
­­
maybe
I'm
misunderstanding
the
4
language
there
from
having
just
heard
it
­­
but
I
­­
5
let's
say
you
had
a
publically
traded
company
that,
I
6
don't
know,
five
or
six
individuals
who
were
­­
who
7
came
up
to
the
DBE
standards
owned
51
percent,
that
8
would
qualify
that
way.
But
then
do
you
take
the
net
9
worth
of
all
of
those
individuals
or
do
you
just
take
10
the
stock
ownership
that
they
own
in
that
company?
I
11
mean,
the
way
it's
written
it's
kind
mirky,
so
that's
12
the
kind
of
thing
that
needs
to
be
addressed.
13
MS.
BROWN:
Thank
you.
We'll
take
that
under
14
advisement.
15
MR.
ANDREWS:
That
was
kind
of
a
side
thing.
16
The
important
thing
to
me
is
the
tribal
ownership
aspect.
17
MS.
DAVISON:
Jeanette,
I
don't
think
SBA
18
rules
addressed
that.
19
MS.
BROWN:
We'll
take
that
under
advisement
20
and
then
respond
to
it.
But
it's
things
like
that
we
21
want
you
to
go
through
and
take
a
look
at
the
ruling,
22
gives
us
comment.
23
MS.
BROWN:
Okay.
I
think
that
concludes
the
meeting.
24
(
Thereupon,
the
public
hearing
was
concluded
25
at
3:
00
p.
m.)
0123
1
REPORTER'S
CERTIFICATE
2
I,
DAVID
E.
HIX,
Certified
Shorthand
3
Reporter,
do
hereby
certify:
4
That
the
foregoing
proceedings
were
taken
5
before
me
at
the
time
and
place
therein
set
forth;
6
That
the
testimony
and
all
objections
made
7
were
recorded
stenographically
by
me
and
were
8
thereafter
transcribed
by
me
or
under
my
direction;
9
That
the
foregoing
is
a
true
and
correct
10
record
of
testimony
given,
to
the
best
of
my
ability;
11
That
I
am
not
a
relative
or
employee
of
any
12
attorney
or
of
any
of
the
parties,
nor
am
I
financially
13
interested
in
the
action.
14
IN
WITNESS
WHEREOF,
I
have
hereunto
set
my
15
hand
and
seal
this
20th
day
of
October,
2003.
16
17
DAVID
E.
HIX,
C.
S.
R.
#
2271
18
816
Sherman
Avenue
Suite
7
19
Coeur
d'Alene,
ID
83814
20
21
22
23
24
25
