0001
1
ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION
AGENCY
IN
RE:
EPA
GENERAL
FLYER
2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3
EPA
MEETING
4
5
December
9,
2003
10:
00
a.
m.
6
7
61
Forsyth
Street
Atlanta,
Georgia
8
9
Natalie
G.
Studstill,
CCR­
B­
2294
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0002
1
APPEARANCES
2
.
3
Appearing
on
Behalf
of
4
Environmental
Protection
Agency:
5
KIMBERLY
PATRICK,
ESQUIRE
6
Janette
Brown,
Director
of
Small
Business
7
.
8
Also
Present:
9
Rafael
Santamaria,
Mbe/
wbe
Coordinator
10
.
11
Audience:
12
Harley
Grant
13
Sandra
Ellis
14
David
D.
Johnson
15
Sandy
Hammer
16
Jerry
Crane
17
Johnny
Miles
18
George
Williams
19
.
20
Also
Present:
21
Scott
Gregory,
the
National
Center
for
American
Indian
22
Enterprise
Development
23
.
24
.
25
.
0003
1
EPA
Meeting
2
December
9,
2003
3
MS.
BROWN:
This
is
Rafeal
4
Santamaria,
who
is
our
MBE/
WBE
coordinator
here
5
in
Region
4,
and
should
be
your
point
of
6
contact
as
it
pertains
to
or
relates
to
grants
7
and
opportunities
with
EPA.
8
We're
here
today
to
talk
to
you
9
about
a
proposed
rule,
and
the
impact
that
it
10
will
have
on
the
tribes
and
to
get
you
the
11
information
so
that
would
can
get
feedback
and
12
input
from
you
as
we
go
through
a
formal
rule
13
making
process.
14
The
rule
itself
was
issued
in
July
15
of
this
year,
and
it
has
been
posted
and
16
listed,
and
we
have
a
copy
of
the
federal
17
register,
so
if
you
want
to
get
that
before
you
18
leave,
you
can
get
that.
We'll
talk
to
you
19
later
about
where
you
can
find
it
on
line,
but
20
it
talks
about
our
program
and
some
proposed
21
changes.
22
This
is
a
formal
hearing,
so
we
have
23
a
court
reporter
here.
We
need
to
make
sure
24
that
we
speak
very
clearly,
so
that
she
can
get
25
the
information.
When
you
have
a
question
I
0004
1
will
ask
that
you
say
who
you
are,
and
the
2
company
or
tribe
or
entity
that
you
represent,
3
so
that
we'll
know
where
the
concerns
are
coming
4
from.
5
This
is
one
of
about
17
hearings
6
that
we're
having
around
the
country.
You
might
7
be
wondering
well,
why
do
I
need
a
court
8
reporter
here.
After
we
have
done
this,
and
9
some
have
had
has
many
as
75,
85
people
in
10
attendance,
and
it
is
difficult
for
us
to
11
remember
who
said
what,
and
so
by
using
a
court
12
reporter,
and
because
it
is
a
formal
hearing,
we
13
will
have
this
for
the
record,
as
we
get
the
14
message
out
about
the
program.
15
We
also
have
working
with
us
the
16
National
Center
under
contract
to
help
us
to
put
17
on
the
tribal
conferences,
so
they
have
been
18
with
us
throughout
the
Indian
country
having
and
19
putting
on
these
meetings.
20
Again,
I
say
welcome.
And
we
have
21
Scott
Gregory.
We
have
just
been
sending
e­
mails
22
back
and
forth,
and
I
have
finally
got
a
chance
23
to
meet
him
in
person,
but
Scott
Gregory
has
24
been
very
active
on
and
under
the
contract
25
working
with
Kimberly
and
my
staff
to
put
these
0005
1
meetings
on.
2
I
think
we
do
have
a
survey
sheet
3
that
you
can
fill
out
at
the
end
of
meeting
4
and
give
us
feedback
on
what
you
thought,
5
logistics,
of
course,
if
that
is
an
issue,
be
6
sure
to
make
sure
that
known
to
us.
7
This
is
­­
in
our
travels,
we're
8
almost
finished.
The
rule
is
scheduled
to
be
9
closed,
the
final
comment
period
is
January
20,
10
and
I
think
we
have
three
to
four
more
meetings
11
to
go,
so
this
is
near
the
end
of
the
tour,
12
which
is
a
good
thing
because
we
have
been
13
living
out
of
our
suitcases
since
July,
and
it
14
has
been
difficult,
but
we
do
what
we
have
to
15
do.
16
One
of
the
things
I
like
to
do
17
first
is
get
a
feel
for
who
you
are
and
who
18
you're
representing.
This
is
a
small
enough
19
setting
that
I
think
we
can
do
that.
We
have
20
been
talking
about
breakfast
or
food,
but
it
21
would
help
me
to
know
who
you
are
and
the
22
entity
you
represent.
23
MR.
GRANT:
My
name
is
Harley
Grant,
24
and
I'm
from
Chattanooga,
Tennessee.
I'm
a
25
member
of
the
Eastern
Band
of
Cherokees
out
of
0006
1
North
Carolina.
I
own
a
private
business.
I'm
2
a
practicing
metallurgist.
We
do
all
types
of
3
heat
treating
that
are
from
six
inches
to
4
40­
foot
length
up
to
hundred
tons.
We
do
media
5
blasting.
We
have
EPA
approved
blast
6
facilities.
We
do
all
types
of
metal
coatings
7
from
Cling
Arc
all
the
way
up
to
HVOL,
high
8
velocity
thermosprays.
We
spray
all
types
of
9
metals,
and
we
do
full
failure
analysis.
10
MS.
ELLIS:
I'm
Sandra
Ellis
out
of
11
Jackson,
Tennessee
and
my
company
name
is
12
Separate
Winds,
and
I
do
fire
and
rescue
13
equipment
for
local
fire
departments
and
14
businesses
who
need
fire
extinguishers.
I'm
a
15
member
of
the
Muscogee
Creek
Nation
out
of
16
Oklahoma.
I
get
bragging
rights.
My
dad
is
17
going
to
become
chief
in
January
of
the
Muscogee
18
Creek
Nation.
19
MR.
MILES:
I'm
Johnny
Miles.
I'm
20
from,
here
in
Georgia,
Cartersville,
Georgia.
I
21
own
Mechanical
Electric
Associates.
I'm
a
22
certified
Native
American
contractor
for
the
23
state
of
Georgia,
a
general
contractor
with
24
mainly
industrial
and
government
facilities.
25
MR.
CRANE:
I'm
Jerry
Crane,
0007
1
president
of
Alpha,
Incorporated.
I'm
from
2
Anderson,
South
Carolina.
We're
a
native
owned
3
business.
I'm
a
Choctaw,
and
we
do
custom
4
electronic
systems
and
contract
manufacturers.
5
MR.
JOHNSON:
I'm
David
Johnson,
and
6
I'm
a
Tribal
Judge
for
the
MACHIS
Lower
Creek
7
Indian
Tribe,
New
Brockton,
Alabama,
and
we're
8
in
the
process
of
going
through
our
8­
A
9
certification,
as
a
tribe
we
have
some
members
10
of
the
tribes
that
are
presently
8­
A
certified,
11
and
we're
going
for
tribal
status
down
at
New
12
Brockton,
Alabama.
13
MR.
WILLIAMS:
I'm
George
Williams,
14
and
I'm
with
UIDA
Business
Services.
We
are
a
15
division
of
the
National
Center.
The
National
16
Center
is
in
Mesa,
Arizona.
We're
located
here
17
in
Marietta,
Georgia
at
the
Lockheed­
Martin
18
Facility.
I
encourage
anybody
who
currently
is
19
not
working
with
us.
My
card
is
up
here.
20
Please
take
one.
21
Like
I
said,
we
cover
13
different
22
states,
including
Wisconsin
and
Minnesota
and
23
look
forward
to
being
of
service.
Thank
you.
24
MR.
GREGORY:
Scott
Gregory
with
the
25
National
Center
for
American
Indian
Enterprise
0008
1
Development,
a
sister
company
to
UIDA,
and
2
basically
we're
nonprofit
to
assist
American
3
Indian
business
and
tribes.
4
MS.
BROWN:
As
with
we're
going
5
through
the
presentation,
if
you
have
any
6
questions,
I
would
ask
that
you
use
the
mic,
7
and
tell
us
again
your
name,
so
she
can
get
8
that
on
the
record,
who
you
represent,
and
we'll
9
go
into
the
questions.
10
Feel
free
to
ask
any
questions
that
11
you
may
have.
Because
many
of
you
are
already
12
in
business
or
associated
with
businesses,
while
13
we're
here
to
do
the
hearing,
if
you
want
us
14
to
talk
to
you
after
the
hearing
about
other
15
opportunities
with
EPA
in
terms
of
how
to
do
16
business
with
EPA,
if
you're
not
already
a
17
contractor
for
us,
we
can
do
that.
18
Primarily,
there
are
two
ways
to
do
19
business,
directly
or
indirectly,
and
we're
here
20
to
talk
to
you
and
hold
this
hearing
on
the
21
indirect
portion
of
this
program.
Meaning,
and
I
22
always
say
to
businesses,
money
is
green.
You
23
just
need
to
know
where
to
go
to
find
it.
24
What
we're
saying
at
EPA
is
there
25
are
two
ways
to
do
that.
We
give
approximately
0009
1
$
1.2
billion
out
in
contracts
annually
directly,
2
but
my
grants
budget
in
the
agency,
and
when
I
3
say
mine,
it's
not
my
budget,
but
the
agency's
4
budget
is
$
4.2
billion
annually,
so
if
you
5
follow
the
dollars,
this
program
we're
having
6
the
meeting
on,
this
hearing
on,
has
tremendous
7
opportunity
quite
possibly
for
business
owners,
8
small,
women­
owned
businesses,
et
cetera.
9
As
grant
recipients
they
are
10
encouraged
to
utilize
minority
and
women­
owned
11
businesses
to
the
maximum
extent
possible,
and
12
they
do
that
­­
and
let
me
say
this.
Under
13
the
program
they
do
not
have
to
contract
14
directly.
They
have
an
option.
If
they
get
a
15
grant,
and
they
decide
that
they
need
to
go
out
16
and
buy
something,
that
is
when
this
program
17
kicks
in.
18
If
they
go
and
buy
something
in
four
19
categories,
equipment,
construction,
services
or
20
supplies
our
program
kicks
in.
If,
on
the
21
other
hand,
a
tribe
receives
a
grant,
and
they
22
decide
they
have
everything
that
they
need
to
do
23
internally
within
their
tribal
government,
then
24
they
can
choose
to
supplement
salaries,
and
that
25
kind
of
thing,
with
the
grant,
and
our
program
0010
1
doesn't
kick
in,
but
the
minute
they
go
out
and
2
buy
something,
in
one
of
those
four
categories.
3
What
were
they?
4
MR.
JOHNSON:
Equipment,
construction,
5
services,
and
supplies.
6
MS.
BROWN:
Very
good.
So
our
7
program
kicks
in.
So
many
of
you
are
probably
8
familiar
with
the
State
DOT
Highway
Program.
9
EPA
has
a
very
small
program,
but
it
is
10
similar.
A
couple
of
years
ago
the
State
DOT
11
Highway
Program
went
through
a
proposed
ruling
12
and
made
changes
to
their
program
to
come
in
13
compliance
with
the
Adarand
decision,
and
that
14
is
a
formal
decision
that
came
from
the
supreme
15
court.
16
It's
been
out
since
1995,
and
it
17
looked
at
what
the
Federal
Government
was
18
spending
its
money
on
and
giving
the
decision
19
that
came
from
the
supreme
court,
a
review
was
20
done,
and
Kimberly
can
talk
to
you
in
more
21
detail
about
that
case
if
need
be
that
came
out
22
of
the
State
of
Colorado
where
a
nonminority
23
challenged
how
the
State
of
Colorado
was
doing
24
their
state
contract,
and
it
challenged
a
25
minority
citizen
basically.
0011
1
And
as
a
result
of
that
it
went
all
2
the
way
up
to
the
supreme
court,
and
it
changed
3
how
here
in
the
Federal
government
we
will
4
operate,
and
we're
the
last
agency
to
come
in
5
line
to
go
ahead
and
make
changes.
While
we
6
have
made
some
internal
changes,
we
had
to
go
7
through
a
public
hearing
and
a
rule
making,
and
8
that
is
why
we're
here
now.
9
The
changes
that
we're
going
to
talk
10
about
is
going
to
be
the
major
elements
of
the
11
proposed
rule
and
what
the
major
changes
are,
12
and
how
we
see
they
may
impact
you
all.
We
13
need
to
hear
from
you.
We
need
you
to
read
14
this.
We
need
you
to
digest.
We
need
15
comments
from
you
in
terms
of
what
you
think
it
16
will
do
for
you,
or
if
it
will
help
you
or
17
hurt
you
because
here
you
get
a
chance,
quite
18
frankly,
to
weigh
in
on
public
policy
as
it
is
19
being
made.
20
This
is
something
we
feel
that
is
21
very
important,
so
we
will
go
through
the
major
22
elements
of
the
proposed
rule
and
talk
about
23
some
of
the
changes
and
will
spend
a
lot
more
24
time
in
the
area
of
the
impact
directly
to
the
25
tribal
concerns
as
well.
0012
1
Any
questions
or
comments?
2
Sir,
you
just
came
in,
and
it
would
3
be
good
if
you
use
the
mic
and
tell
us
who
you
4
are
and
an
entity
or
tribe
or
company
that
you
5
represent.
6
MR.
HAMMER:
My
name
is
Sandy
7
Hammer.
I
am
with
the
MACHIS
Lower
Creek
Tribe
8
of
Alabama.
I'm
here
as
a
representative
of
9
the
tribe.
10
MS.
BROWN:
Are
you
a
grant
11
recipient
as
well
from
EPA?
12
MR.
HAMMER:
No,
no.
I
also
13
represent
Hammer
LGC.
We're
a
licensed
general
14
contractor.
We
do
DOD
work,
Department
of
15
Defense
work.
That
is
all
we
do
is
military
16
work.
17
MS.
BROWN:
Do
any
of
you
all
18
receive
grants
currently
from
EPA?
Nobody
does.
19
This
is
good
news
for
you
then,
so
that
you'll
20
know
that
the
opportunity
is
very
well.
We
do
21
give
monies
to
the
states,
to
tribes,
to
trust
22
territories
and
nonprofit
organizations,
colleges
23
and
university,
and
again,
if
they
go
out
and
24
buy
anything,
they
decide
they
needed
a
pen,
a
25
package
of
pens,
our
program
kicks
in
because,
0013
1
again,
anything
in
the
area
of
equipment,
2
construction,
services
or
supplies,
our
program
3
kicks
in.
4
Kimberly,
anything
you
want
to
add?
5
MS.
PATRICK:
I
think
it's
important
6
that
I
make
the
general
disclaimer
due
to
past
7
experience.
This
is
not
consultation.
We
do
8
not
consider
it
consultation.
Yes,
it
is
a
9
formal
hearing.
Yes,
it
is
on
the
record,
but
10
we
know
this
is
not
the
level
of
consultation
11
that
would
normally
be
used
when
dealing
with
12
Indian
tribes.
I
just
want
to
put
that
out
13
there,
so
you
understand
we
don't
take
this
as
14
consultation.
15
MS.
BROWN:
It's
been
a
big
one
on
16
the
west
coast.
Hopefully,
one
of
these
17
summaries,
and
the
Federal
Register
Notice.
We
18
have
those
available
right
over
here
if
you
19
don't
have
them,
and
I'll
be
able
to
see
to
it
20
that
you
get
one.
We're
just
going
to
go
21
straight
down
this
list
here
and
talk
about
what
22
it
is
the
proposed
rule
is
proposing
to
do.
23
MS.
PATRICK:
Because
I
see,
24
listening
to
most
of
you
all,
and
you
25
representing
the
business
side
of
it,
I
think
we
0014
1
should
sort
of
concentrate
heavily
on
the
2
certification
portion.
I
think
that's
probably
3
the
part
that
is
going
to
effect
you
most.
4
MS.
BROWN:
First
is
the
name
change
5
report.
Right
now
it's
called
the
MBE/
WBE
6
program.
The
proposed
rule
is
recommending
that
7
we
change
it
to
EPA
DBE
program,
and
basically
8
we're
doing
that
to
be
consistent
with
other
the
9
federal
agency
state
DOT
DBE
program,
and
so
10
that
we're
consistent
across
the
board.
11
A
DBE
is
defined
as
an
entity
owned
12
and/
or
controlled
by
an
individual
who
is
13
socially
and
economically
disadvantaged
under
14
either
EPA's
8%
or
10%
statutes,
as
well
as
the
15
small
business
enterprise,
a
labor
surplus
area
16
or
from
the
SBRA.
This
is
a
new
change,
and
17
it
is
not
that
technical,
but
we're
looking
to
18
be
consistent
with
the
other
federal
agencies.
19
Under
the
next
major
change,
as
20
Kimberly
indicated,
is
we're
looking
at
21
certification
requirements.
This
is
quite
22
different
from
what
we've
done
before.
Right
23
now
as
an
entity
or
business
you
are
24
self­
certified.
If
you
tell
me
you're
a
25
minority,
woman­
owned
business,
and
you
certify
0015
1
that
you
are,
we
accept
that
at
face
value
and
2
nothing
else.
3
With
the
proposed
changes
we're
4
looking
at
making
sure
that
you
have,
been
5
certified
by
a
couple
of
other
entities
first,
6
preferably
before
coming
to
us,
and
if
all
else
7
fails
and
you
can't
get
those,
then
we
would
8
have
to
certify
you.
9
We
will
no
longer
be
able
to
accept
10
the
self­
certification.
You
need
to
have
some
11
kind
of
documentation
to
show
and
to
prove
that
12
you
are,
in
fact,
a
minority­
owned
business.
13
There
are
a
lot
of
reasons
why
we're
14
going
to
this
change.
Most
of
the
other
15
programs
require
certification.
SBA
is
the
16
standard
that
we
use
in
determining
the
size
and
17
those
types
of
things,
and
so
we're
saying
if
18
you
have
an
SBA
certification
or
something
like
19
that,
we
will
gladly
accept
that.
We'll
accept
20
a
DOT
certification,
provided
that
you
are
a
21
citizen
of
the
United
States.
Under
the
DOT
22
program,
they
also
certify
noncitizens.
We're
23
going
to
be
consistent
with
the
SBA
policy
that
24
you
have
to
be
a
citizen
of
the
United
States.
25
Anything
else
you
want
to
add,
0016
1
Kimberly?
2
MS.
PATRICK:
In
terms
of
the
3
certification
part,
the
standards
we're
using
are
4
pretty
much
the
same
as
SBA
standards,
and
let
5
me
just
add,
so
there
is
consistency
with
the
6
rest
of
the
Federal
Government.
7
The
way
the
program
would
work
is
8
that
if
you
already
have
certification
from
SBA
9
or
from
DOT
through
the
citizenship
requirement,
10
or
if
you
have
a
state
or
local
certification
11
from
an
area
where
their
program
requirements
12
are
the
same
as
our
requirement,
we
will
accept
13
that
certification
as
well.
14
The
entire
goal
is
to
make
sure
we
15
are
a
not
asking
people
to
do
the
same
thing
16
twice,
so
if
you
have
a
certification
that
is
17
good
and
valid,
the
program
requirements
meets
18
ours,
we
will
accept
that.
Even
if
you're
19
tribe
certified,
because
I
know
there
are
some
20
due.
We
will
accept
that
certification
as
well
21
as
or
as
long
as
standards
are
met.
22
In
terms
of
the
standards,
it
will
23
be
51
percent
owned
and/
or
controlled.
Where
24
we're
unique
is
that
and/
or
part
because
SBA
and
25
DOT
required
that
it
is
owned
and
controlled.
0017
1
Well,
EPA,
our
program
is
actually,
currently
2
resides
in
two
separate
statutes,
one
is
clean
3
air,
one
is
under
clean
water.
4
One
statute
they
have
it
as
owned
5
and
controlled,
and
the
other
one
we
have
it
6
owned
or
controlled,
and
so
because
the
statute,
7
that
is
going
to
go
above
our
heads
to
change,
8
we
can't
go
and
reword
the
statute
and
to
9
change
that,
so
we
have
to
incorporate
both
of
10
those
in
our
program,
which
makes
us
a
little
11
bit
unique
matter.
12
So
we
know
that
as
a
matter
of
13
first
impression
there
are
going
to
be
group
of
14
entities
that
we
will
have
to
certify,
because
15
no
one
else
will.
16
One
of
those
groups
is
an
entity
17
that
is
owned
or
controlled.
Some
of
the
other
18
groups
we
know
we
have
to
certify
ourself,
19
women­
owned
business,
because
currently
DOT
and
20
SBA
do
not
certify
women­
owned
businesses.
We
21
will.
22
Disabled
American
owned
businesses,
23
private
and
voluntary
organizations
controlled
by
24
individuals
who
are
socially
and
economically
25
disadvantaged.
Entities
which
are
certified
0018
1
under
the
criteria
which
are
inferences
in
the
2
EPA
DBE
program
criteria,
and
the
owned
or
3
controlled,
as
I
already
mentioned.
Those
are
4
the
five
categories
we
know
EPA
will
have
to
do
5
and
certify.
6
For
everyone
else,
we're
hoping
that
7
entities
will
go
out
and
seek
the
SBA
or
DOT
8
certification.
There
is
a
reason
behind
that.
9
As
a
business
owner,
SBA
certifications
will
10
take
you
a
whole
lot
further
than
having
EPA
11
certification.
12
Our
certification
currently
is
only
13
good
with
the
EPA.
An
SBA
certification
you
14
can
take
anywhere,
pretty
much.
Right
now
DOT
15
and
SBA
have
a
memorandum
understanding
whereas
16
they
will
accept
each
others
certification.
We
17
do
not
have
that
with
our
programs.
That
is
18
probably
because
of
the
standards
we
have
the
19
owned
or
­­
it
just
gets
a
little
to
fuzzy
for
20
the
other
entities
to
accept
our
certification,
21
so
we
are
encouraging
businesses
to
seek
the
22
certification
because
it
is
just
a
good
business
23
thing
to
do,
and
we
in
turn
will
accept
those.
24
The
process
is
pretty
simple.
We
25
have
a
set
of
forms
that
of
course
is
going
0019
1
through
the
process
right
now,
and
those
are
2
getting
all
approved.
They
will
go
with
this,
3
and
the
process
is
if
you
have
a
current
4
certification
that
is
valid,
you
just
have
to
5
submit
that
to
us,
and
we,
in
turn,
will
give
6
you
an
EPA
certification.
Really
simple,
really
7
quick.
8
If
it's
a
situation
where
someone
is
9
being
certified
by
us
originally,
then
of
course
10
there
is
the
paperwork
to
go
into
different
11
things.
12
The
other
thing
I
didn't
mention
is
13
the
networth
requirement.
Currently
our
networth
14
requirement
is
$
750,000.
If
your
networth
is
15
under
$
750,000,
you
are
eligible
to
be
certified
16
at
EPA
per
our
program.
17
That
$
750
K
does
not
include
your
18
interest
in
your
personal
resident
or
your
19
interest
in
the
business.
20
MS.
BROWN:
Personal
networth?
21
MS.
PATRICK:
Personal
networth.
22
MS.
BROWN:
As
you
as
the
individual
23
who
is
the
owner
or
who
owns
and
controls
the
24
business
The
question?
Use
the
mic
sir,
and
25
tell
me
who
you
are.
0020
1
MR.
JOHNSON:
David
Johnson,
MACHIS
2
Lower
Creek
Indian
Tribe
of
Alabama.
You
3
mentioned
that
if
the
tribe
was
8­
A
certified
4
that
it
could
help
the
members
with
their
5
individual
bids.
What
­­
on
the
reverse
order
6
if
we
already
have
some
members
in
our
tribe
7
that
are
certified
8­
A,
and
the
tribe
is
going
8
to
tribal
certification,
is
the
reverse
going
to
9
work?
10
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
probably
not
11
because
you're
dealing
with
an
SBA
kind
of
12
thing,
so
what
SBA
is
going
to
be
looking
at
13
is
probably
the
tribe
itself.
It's
going
to
be
14
looking
at
two
distinct
things,
so
I
couldn't
15
see
where
the
individual
certification
of
your
16
members
would
really
aid,
really
weigh
in
very
17
much
with
helping
with
the
tribe
overall
to
18
obtain
certification.
19
MR.
JOHNSON:
What
about
20
certification
­­
21
MS.
BROWN:
EPA
­­
22
MS.
PATRICK:
EPA,
probably
not.
It
23
would
probably
be
the
same
in
terms
of
how
that
24
would
work.
25
MR.
JOHNSON:
Stand
on
its
­­
0021
1
MS.
BROWN:
Any
other
comment
or
2
questions?
3
MR.
WILLIAMS:
I'm
Georgia
Williams.
4
UIDA
Business
Services.
I
was
just
wondering
5
when
you
mentioned
the
clean
air
versus
clean
6
water
portions,
and
one
was
similar
to
the
SBA
7
and
that
it
had
to
be
owned
and
operated,
what,
8
which
is
­­
I
mean,
to
me
that
is
kind
of
9
foreign
to
me
because
I
just
assumed
that
10
everything
federal
all
marched
to
the
same
beat,
11
and
obviously
that
is
not
the
case.
12
MS.
PATRICK:
It
is
actually,
the
13
10%
statute
I
believe
is
clean
air
­­
let
me
14
make
sure
I've
got
that
right.
15
MS.
BROWN:
42.7601.
16
MS.
PATRICK:
Yeah,
I
believe
that
17
is
clean
air.
The
10%
statute
under
the
clean
18
air
program
is
the
one
that
is
owned
and
19
controlled.
Under
the
clean
water
it
would
20
start
8%
statute
is
owned
or
controlled.
21
MS.
BROWN:
Can't
tell
you
how
we
22
did
that
­­
23
MS.
PATRICK:
­­
or
why
it
was
24
written
that
way.
25
MS.
BROWN:
Why
it
was
written
that
0022
1
way.
It's
been
that
way
to
a
long
time.
We
2
can't
change
that
now.
3
MR.
WILLIAMS:
So
I
mean,
you
4
actually
have
two
different
standards?
5
MS.
BROWN:
For
basically
the
same
6
program.
7
MR.
WILLIAMS:
I
mean
­­
wow.
8
MS.
PATRICK:
That
just
means
the
9
right
hand
didn't
ask
the
left
when
he
did
it,
10
just
went
off
and
did
their
own
thing.
11
MR.
WILLIAMS:
Amazing.
See,
but
12
what
you're
doing
here
now,
EPA
naturally
when
13
you
­­
so
in
other
words,
they
couldn't
on
a
14
clean
air,
on
a
contract,
and
EPA
contract
for
15
a
clean
air
work
the
person
had
to
be
­­
in
16
other
words,
now,
with
this
ruling
that
you're
17
doing
now,
is
that
going
to
make
everything
18
consistent
on
clean
air
and
water
or
not?
19
MS.
PATRICK:
It
won't
make
it
20
consistent
because
what
happens
because
the
21
statute
is
written
the
way
it
is,
EPA,
EPA
for
22
purposes
of
our
program,
we
would
not
have
a
23
choice,
we
would
have
to
certify
entities
that
24
are
owned
or
controlled,
which
makes
us
unique
25
from
the
rest
of
the
Federal
Government.
0023
1
In
the
instance
where
someone
comes
2
in
and
they
meet
that
owned
or
controlled
3
standard,
when
they're
doing
EPA
work,
we
would
4
have
to
certify
them
if
they
met
the
rest
of
5
the
requirements.
6
MR.
WILLIAMS:
So
in
other
words
7
upon,
when
this
takes
effect
in
January
somebody
8
that
previously,
like
say
somebody
that
was
9
working
on
clean
water
work
but
they
couldn't
do
10
clean
water
work
now
would
be
able
to
bid
on
11
either
one
of
those?
12
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
not
necessarily.
13
I
know
it
is
completely
crazy.
What
it
comes
14
down
to,
who
we
can
count,
sort
of
each
15
category
in
terms
of
how
the
dollars
are
being
16
spent.
17
That
would
mean
let's
say
someone
18
was
working,
the
owned
or
controlled
clean
19
water.
Let's
say
someone
was
working
under
a
20
situation
where
it
was
money
coming
under
clean
21
water
material.
We're
talking
about
the
labor
22
contractor
grants.
23
MS.
BROWN:
We're
talking
about
24
grants
here.
Not
contracts,
grant.
25
MR.
WILLIAMS:
Oh,
big
difference.
0024
1
MS.
BROWN:
Big
difference,
2
equipment.
3
MS.
PATRICK:
This
is
not
direct.
4
This
is
direct
procurement
at
all.
This
is
a
5
situation
where
the
State
of
Georgia
gets
a
6
grant
from
EPA
to
put
in
a
­­
7
MS.
BROWN:
Waste
water
treatment
8
plant.
9
MS.
PATRICK:
They
have
to
go
out
10
and
hire
contractors
to
build
the
plant.
This
11
is
what
this
program
is
about.
So
its
money
12
is
contract
dollars
that
are
spent
under
the
13
grant.
Weight
that
we
give
to
certain
entities.
14
MR.
WILLIAMS:
So
in
other
words,
15
this
is
being
spent
under
a
grant.
It
doesn't
16
stop,
really
fall
under
the
traditional
17
procurement
rules
with
the
rest
of
the
federal
18
Government.
19
MS.
BROWN:
We
don't
use
the
­­
any
20
of
that
under
this.
This
is
the
indirect
21
portion.
Remember
earlier
I
said
there
is
two
22
way
to
do
business
with
EPA,
either
directly
23
through
our
contract,
and
that's
that
$
1.2
24
billion,
and
we'll
talk
about
that
another
time
25
later
after
the
hearing,
or
indirectly
that
$
4.2
0025
1
billion
under
our
grant
program,
but
money
is
2
green,
and
you
need
to
know
where
the
money
is
3
going,
so
you
know
how
to
go
after
it.
4
MR.
WILLIAMS:
I
know
you
mentioned
5
the
indirect
and
direct,
but
I
just
wasn't
6
thinking.
I
just
automatically
­­
7
MS.
BROWN:
It
is
not
8­
A,
not
any
8
of
that.
9
MS.
PATRICK:
I
can
see
that
is
why
10
we
found
incredibly
confusing
if
you
think
about
11
all
the
other
procurement
things
that
are
12
placed,
why
the
differences
would
be
huge,
but
13
in
the
grant
side
of
the
world
all
the
­­
14
MS.
BROWN:
Out
the
window.
15
MR.
WILLIAMS:
Out
the
window.
16
MR.
HAMMER:
So
the
grant
money
that
17
you
are
setting
up
or
sets
aside
goes
directly
18
only
to
the
minority
set
asides
that
you
19
authorized.
20
MS.
BROWN:
No,
the
grant
money
goes
21
to
grant
recipients.
Sometimes
they,
tribes,
22
trust
territories,
hospital,
nonprofits,
colleges
23
and
universities.
24
MR.
HAMMER:
That
is
certified
by
25
you?
0026
1
MS.
BROWN:
No.
2
MS.
PATRICK:
The
initial
grantee,
3
the
person
who
is
getting
the
grant.
There
is
4
no
certification
involved
there.
You
apply
for
5
the
grant.
You
ask
for
the
money.
You
get
it.
6
Or
if
it's
a
congressional
set
aside
type
of
7
thing,
then
it
is
set
aside
for
your
­­
8
MS.
BROWN:
Pork
barrels,
all
of
9
that
good
stuff.
That
is
how
that
goes.
You
10
can
see
how
much
is
going
out
of
EPA
with
$
4.2
11
billion
annually.
12
MS.
PATRICK:
Now,
once
those
13
entities
get
that
money
and
they
say,
okay,
it's
14
time
for
us
to
go
about,
waste
water
treatment
15
plant,
EPA
gave
us
money
for,
they
go
out
16
solicit
bids
and
whatever
for
people
to
come
17
back
to
­­
18
MR.
HAMMER:
I
have
got
you.
19
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
the
way
you
20
have
to
be
certified.
21
MR.
HAMMER:
I'm
slow,
but
I
got
22
you.
23
MR.
MILES:
I'm
Johnny
Miles,
and
24
I'm
here
from
Cartersville.
Speaking
of
the
25
waste
water
treatment
plants,
and
if
y'all
are
0027
1
giving
grants
to
the
state
of
Georgia,
do
you
2
say
to
the
State
of
Georgia
you
have
to
spend
3
"
X"
amount
of
money
on
native
Americans,
an
"
X"
4
amount
of
money
on
African­
Americans,
and
"
X"
5
amount
of
money
on
women­
owned
businesses.
6
MS.
PATRICK:
There
is
how
it
works.
7
Whenever
a
grant
goes
out,
our
MBE
WBE
8
requirements
are
in
that
grant,
in
the
terms
and
9
conditions.
We'll
skip
ahead
a
little
bit
in
10
our
presentation
and
explain
this
now.
11
In
those
terms
or
conditions
there
12
is
something
called
the
six
affirmative
steps
or
13
the
six
good
faith
efforts.
Those
efforts
14
require
our
grantees
to
go
out
and
make
sure
15
the
opportunities
under
those
grants
are
made
16
available
to
minority
women­
owned
businesses,
and
17
so
forth.
18
Those
efforts
include
things,
on
19
making
sure
your
solicitations
go
out
widely,
20
making
sure
that
­­
the
process
is
really
21
inclusive
and
that
you
do
all
that
you
can
to
22
make
sure
you
at
least
went
out,
and
you
went
23
to
see
if
these
businesses
are
available
to
do
24
that
work.
Those
are
the
requirements
we
have.
25
Also,
in
each
grant
there
is
0028
1
something
called
a
goal
that
is
negotiated
with
2
the
grantee.
That
goal
can
range
from
1%,
to
3
50%,
or
whatever,
and
it
is
based
on
something
4
called
availability
analysis.
That
availability
5
analysis
is
sort
of
a
snapshot
of
what
6
businesses
are
available
in
your
particular
7
geographical
area
or
where
you
normally
do
your
8
buying
practices.
What
minority
businesses
are
9
available
to
do
the
work.
10
And
so
let's
say
a
State
like
11
Georgia
may
have
a
pretty
high
percentage
12
because
there
are
a
lot
more
minority
businesses
13
available
to
pull
from,
so
the
goal
the
may
be
14
­­
and
I'm
just
pulling
a
number
­­
something
15
like
40%,
okay,
whereas
if
you're
talking
about
16
Vermont,
their
goal
may
be
1%
because
there
are
17
just
not
a
lot
of
minorities
up
there
in
18
Vermont.
19
So
in
each
and
every
grant
20
agreement,
there
is
a
goal
and
there
are
those
21
six
good
faith
efforts
that
you're
supposed
to
22
follow
to
make
sure
the
minorities
are
included
23
in
the
process.
24
Rafeal
is
the
person
here
in
Region
25
4
that
negotiates
the
goal
with
the
grant
0029
1
recipient,
and
we're
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
2
later
about
how
that
is
going
to
happen
because
3
currently
under
the
program,
the
tribal
4
governments
that
receive
grants
don't
have
to
5
negotiate
goals.
6
Once
this
kicks
in
after
a
certain
7
criteria
is
met
and
we
have
some
exemptions
that
8
we'll
talk
about,
some
of
the
tribes
will
have
9
to
now
negotiate
with
EPA
like
the
states
do,
10
the
nonprofits,
et
cetera,
a
goal
based
on
the
11
availability
of
minorities
in
a
geographic
12
location.
13
Looking
at
what
your
buying
practices
14
are,
and
we're
not
saying
go
out
and
create
15
something,
we
just
want
to
know
what
and
how
16
you
currently
buy.
What
are
your
buying
17
practices,
so
we
can
take
a
look
at
that.
18
When
we
negotiate
with
the
states,
a
lot
of
19
times
they
have
already
done
a
disparity
study,
20
and
their
disparity
studies,
while
they
are
21
large
in
scope,
a
lot
of
times
they
go
into
22
the
detail
of
the
buying
practices.
That
is
23
the
case.
We
use
that
information.
24
Short
of
a
disparity
study,
and
25
we're
not
telling
people
they
have
to
do
one
0030
1
because
they
cost
a
lot
of
money.
We
will
2
say,
like
Kimberly
said,
we
have
to
do
an
3
analysis,
and
we
find
the
availability
on
that,
4
based
on
what
your
current
buying
practices
are
5
to
determine
what
those
goals
should
be.
6
We
in
turn,
I
do
a
report
to
7
Congress,
and
we
collect
this
information
from
8
across
the
country
to
see
where
and
how
the
9
money
is
being
spent,
and
how
the
minority
and
10
women­
owned
businesses
are
being
impacted.
11
We
don't
say
so
much
has
to
go
to
12
8­
A,
so
much
has
to
go
tribally
owned
like
we
13
in
direct
procurement.
We
do
say
minority
and
14
women­
owned
businesses,
and
so
that
is
all
15
inclusive
of
everybody.
16
MR.
JOHNSON:
David
Johnson.
On
the
17
deal
where
you
were
mentioning
possibility
like
18
Vermont
where
there
is
only
1%.
Is
there
any
19
stipulation
that
would
stop
us
as
a
tribe
of
20
going
long
distances
across
the
nation
and
doing
21
other
work
in
locations
there.
22
MS.
BROWN:
If
that
is
your
current
23
marketing
strategy,
and
that
is
what
you
do,
24
fine.
A
lot
of
people
do
that.
We
have
seen
25
where
people
maybe
up
in
Georgia
will
come
up
0031
1
to
DC
to
do
work.
If
that
is
what
you
do,
2
fine,
but
it
is
based
on
what
your
current
3
marketing
strategy
is,
what
your
business
4
practices
are,
how
you
generally
do
work.
5
Some
people
go
across
the
state
of
6
Georgia
and
go
to
Tennessee,
Mississippi,
and
7
other
places.
Others
maybe
that
are
closer
to
8
North
Carolina,
and
some
other
places
may
do
9
their
work
in
North
Carolina,
Virginia,
and
10
Georgia.
11
Whatever
your
current
practices
are
12
is
what
we
ask
you
to
define,
and
as
you
are
13
defining
it,
and
if
you're
looking
to
expand
14
because
in
particular
when
you
start
looking
at
15
office
supplies,
depending
on
where
you're
16
located
you
might
not
be
able
to
get
that
17
immediately
in
your
locale,
if
you're
remote
on
18
a
reservation
far
away
and
you
might
have
to
go
19
or
order
on­
line
­­
and
I
hate
to
say
it
­­
20
from
Staples.
Do
you
know
what
I
mean?
If
21
that
is
what
you
do,
that
is
what
you
do.
22
We're
not
asking
you
to
change.
We
just
have
23
to
identify
it,
so
we'll
know
what
the
24
availability
is
and
what
it
is
based
on.
25
What
the
grant
recipients
need
to
0032
1
understand
is,
while
we
don't
consider
this
to
2
be
an
affirmative
action
program,
other
people
3
do.
Programs
like
this
are
being
challenged
all
4
over
the
country,
similar
to
the
one
I
talked
5
about,
they
set
the
standard
for
the
Adarand
6
decision
out
of
the
State
of
Colorado.
7
If
there
is
a
challenge
to
the
8
program,
guess
what,
the
grantee
has
to
defend
9
what
they
did
with
the
money
they
got
from
EPA,
10
and
we've
got
to
defend
what
we
did.
We
can't
11
defend
what
a
grantee
did
if
we
don't
know,
and
12
so
the
key
to
all
of
this
is
documenting
the
13
file.
14
If
you
have,
as
a
tribal
Government
15
TARO
organization,
where
you
come
up
with
16
policies
and
procedures
on
how
the
tribe
well
17
operate,
buy
native
American
first,
those
kinds
18
of
things,
and
that
has
all
got
to
be
19
documented,
and
you
have
that,
those
are
the
20
kinds
of
things
that
could
be
challenged,
or
21
that
is
what
we
use
in
support
of
should
there
22
be
a
challenging.
23
We're
not
trying
to
scare
anybody.
24
We're
saying
the
money
is
available,
but
what
25
people
need
to
understand
is
it's
not
free
or
0033
1
easy
as
you
think.
It
comes
with
some
2
stipulations.
We
can't
just
give
the
money
to
3
you
and
walk
away.
We
have
to
be
accountable
4
for
how
it
is
spent.
5
Basically
what
happened
is
this,
back
6
in
the
early
'
70s,
the
early
80s,
late
'
70s,
we
7
saw
in
EPA
where
we
had
mega
dollars
going
out.
8
Minorities
and
women
were
not
getting
their
fair
9
share
of
the
dollar,
so
Congress
decided
they
10
would
do
something
about
it,
with
this
program
11
in
particular,
where
one
of
three
agencies
that
12
have
to
report
back,
and
this
is
tied
to
EPA's
13
appropriation
budget,
on
how
many
money
we
get
14
as
an
agency.
15
The
three
agencies
are
DOT,
EPA,
and
16
NASA.
I
am
not
sure
how
NASA
runs
their
17
program,
but
we
have
been
in
contact
extensively
18
with
DOT,
and
worked
with
their
attorneys,
19
Department
of
Justice
has
looked
at
this
and
20
told
us
what
we
needed
to
do,
et
cetera.
That
21
is
where
we're
coming
from.
22
We
report
back
and
make
this
23
information
available
to
Congress
when
they
need
24
it
or
want
it
in
terms
of
how
EPA's
money
is
25
being
spent
overall
or
how
minorities
or
women
0034
1
are
benefitting
from
the
dollars
that
are
coming
2
out
of
EPA,
both
directly
and
indirectly.
3
Okay.
Any
questions
or
comments?
4
MS.
PATRICK:
The
good
faith
5
efforts.
I
talked
about
the
terms
and
6
conditions
and
the
grant
and
the
six
good
faith
7
efforts,
efforts
that
are
geared
towards
making
8
sure
that
minority,
women­
owned
businesses
are
9
included
in
the
process,
know
about
the
10
opportunity,
because
you
can't
bid
on
something
11
if
you
don't
know
it
exist.
12
So
those
are
really
pushed
to
make
13
sure
the
information
is
out
there
and
they
are
14
really
inclusive
about
it.
15
In
terms
of
contract
administration
16
provisions,
as
we
have
gone
out
we
have
heard
17
time
and
time
again
that
there
are
some
18
difficulties
that
subcontractors,
in
particular,
19
that
are
small
minority
women­
owned
businesses
20
experience
when
dealing
with
a
prime
contractor
21
under
a
grant.
22
We
have
had
complaints
about
people
23
not
being
paid
on
time.
We
have
had
issues
24
where
subcontractors
were
mysteriously
let
go
25
once
the
prime
contractor
­­
0035
1
MS.
BROWN:
Won
the
award?
2
MS.
PATRICK:
­­
won
the
award.
So
3
we
have
come
up
with
some
contract
4
administration
provisions
in
this
new
rule
to
5
safeguard
against
some
the
bait
and
switch
6
tactics
that
we
see
sort
of
happening
out
there.
7
The
first
one,
the
recipient
must
be
8
notified
­­
recipient
being
the
grantee
­­
the
9
recipient
must
be
notified
in
writing
by
its
10
prime
contractor,
contractor
prior
to
any
11
termination
or
the
DBE
subcontractor.
12
A
lot
of
times
these
terminations
13
happen
and
the
recipient
has
no
idea
it
took
14
place.
Second,
when
a
DBE
subcontractor
fails
15
to
complete
it's
work
under
the
subcontract
for
16
any
reason,
the
recipient
must
require
the
prime
17
contractor
to
make
good
faith
efforts
in
hiring
18
another
subcontractor.
19
That
means
that
the
prime
contractor
20
has
to
go
through
the
same
six
affirmative
steps
21
when
they
go
out
to
find
another
subcontractor,
22
if
a
DBE
subcontractor
is
terminated
for
any
23
reason.
They
have
to
go
through
the
same
steps
24
in
terms
of
making
sure
the
minority
women­
owned
25
business
community
knows
about
the
opportunity.
0036
1
Third,
a
recipient
must
require
its
2
prime
contractor
to
make
good
faith
efforts
even
3
if
the
fair
share
of
objectives
are
met.
What
4
that
means
is
we
talked
about
the
fair
share
5
goals,
the
goals
we
talked
about.
A
lot
of
6
times
recipients
will
say,
well,
I
met
my
23%,
7
I'm
done.
So
that
means
I
don't
have
to
do
8
any
of
this
other
stuff,
no
more
good
faith
9
efforts,
no,
that
is
incorrect.
10
These
provisions
say
that
even
if
11
your
goals
are
met,
say
your
goals
are
met
with
12
that
first
contract
you
do
as
a
recipient.
13
When
you
go
out,
if
you
get
more
EPA
money,
14
you
still
have
to
go
through
the
same
process
15
each
time.
16
It
is
not
just
about
meeting
the
17
goal.
It
is
about
been
fair
and
inclusive.
18
We
want
to
make
that
really
clear.
19
Fourth,
a
recipient
must
require
it
20
prime
contractor
to
pay
its
subcontractor
for
21
satisfactory
performance
within
a
specific
number
22
of
days
from
the
prime
contractor's
receipt
of
23
payment
from
the
recipient.
That
is
just
to
24
make
sure
y'all
get
paid.
25
Fifth,
a
recipient
must
require
the
0037
1
completion
of
a
few
new
forms
to
prevent
"
bait
2
and
switch"
tactics
at
the
subcontract
level
by
3
the
prime
contractor,
which
could
circumvent
the
4
spirit
of
the
DBE
program.
The
forms
are
just
5
forms
documenting
sort
of
what
the
prime
6
contractors
­­
the
recipients
processes
were
and
7
sort
of
monitoring
the
activities
of
their
prime
8
and
their
sub.
9
The
forms
are
pretty
simple.
I
10
think
both
of
them
are
one
page.
Those
forms
11
are
going
through
O&
B
processes
and
all
that
12
good
stuff
before
they're
going
to
be
introduced
13
to
the
public.
O&
B
has
to
test
them
first
to
14
make
sure
we
meet
all
the
paperwork
reduction
15
act
and
all
the
other
lovely
requirements
they
16
have
for
forms
and
information.
17
The
next
part,
submission
of
fair
18
shares
goals,
which
is
what
we
just
talked
19
about.
The
interesting
thing
about
one
of
the
20
new
things
in
the
rule
is
that
once
a
recipient
21
is
awarded
a
grant,
they
have
90
days
to
22
negotiate
their
fair
share
goal
with
us.
23
MS.
BROWN:
If
they
haven't
already
24
done
so.
25
MS.
PATRICK:
Right.
If
they
have
0038
1
not
negotiated
that
goal
or
a
goal
is
not
in
2
place
within
90
days
of
the
receipt
of
the
3
award,
the
recipient
will
not
be
able
to
spend
4
their
money
in
the
­­
5
MS.
BROWN:
Procurement
dollars.
6
MS.
PATRICK:
In
procurement
dollars.
7
In
other
words,
they
can't
spend
in
those
four
8
categories
that
we
talked
about,
which
is
just
9
about
everything,
so
basically
that
means
if
you
10
don't
come
and
negotiate
with
us,
you
can't
11
spend
your
money.
That's
a
new
provision.
12
That
will
sort
of
I
think
help
recipients
stay
13
on
top
of
coming
in
and
negotiating
and
getting
14
their
goals
in
place.
15
MS.
BROWN:
We
have
used
this
in
16
certain
instances
in
some
of
the
states
who
have
17
not
negotiated
with
us.
We
just
held
up
their
18
procurement
dollars
or
told
they
could
not
go
19
out
and
buy
anything.
That
got
their
attention.
20
It
didn't
take
them
long
to
come
to
the
table.
21
Money
talks,
speaks,
goes
a
long
way
when
you're
22
talking
about
holding
it
up
or
limiting
what
23
they
can
or
cannot
do.
24
MS.
BROWN:
The
other
thing
that
25
we're
looking
at,
and
one
of
the
things
we
also
0039
1
say
under
this,
that
there
is
a
possibility
that
2
the
cost
for
preparing
an
availability
analysis
3
may
be
grant
eligible
and
may
be
funded
under
4
the
grant
to
help
cover
the
cost
of
an
5
availability
analysis
or
disparity
study,
6
depending
on
which
route
they
want
to
take.
7
We
do
know
that
it
is
costly
to
do
8
the
disparity
studies.
Some
of
the
states
and
9
some
of
the
other
larger
grant
recipients
have
10
worked
with
some
of
the
local
colleges
and
11
universities
and
they
have
helped
them
come
up
12
with
what
their
availability
analysis
is.
13
Probably,
the
National
Center
and
14
other
organizations
that
could
probably
work
with
15
a
grant
recipient
as
they
look
at
this
to
16
determine
what
their
actual
availability
is
of
17
minorities,
of
women
in
a
geographic
location,
18
if
they
haven't
already
done
so.
19
This
is
new
under
the
fair
share
of
20
goals.
We're
also
suggesting,
we're
saying
that
21
the
goals
once
negotiated
will
probably
be
in
22
effect
for
about
three
years,
so
you
don't
have
23
to
go
every
year
and
spend
a
lot
of
time
24
negotiating,
going
through
the
analysis.
25
What
we
have
done
basically
thus
0040
1
far,
and
we
started
this
about
four
years
ago,
2
what
we
have
done,
like,
when
the
new
census
3
data
came
out,
the
last
census
data,
we
sent
a
4
letter
out
to
all
of
our
grant
recipients
and
5
say
we
understand
there
has
been
a
new
census,
6
does
this
information
change
what
your
7
availability
analysis
or
your
information,
what
8
your
fair
share
goals
have
indicated
to
us,
if
9
it
does,
we
need
to
discuss
that,
and
maybe
10
even
have
negotiations.
11
Some
of
the
people
came
in
and
12
requested,
based
on
the
new
census
data
13
information
that
their
goals
be
changed,
and
14
some
of
their
goals
went
down.
Others
their
15
goals
went
up.
But
we
left
that
up
to
them.
16
But
we're
saying
basically
because
we
don't
want
17
­­
this
is
a
lot
­­
18
Rafeal,
how
many
tribes
do
you
have?
19
MR.
SANTAMARIA:
Six.
20
MS.
BROWN:
How
many
grant
recipients
21
do
you
negotiate
with?
22
MR.
SANTAMARIA:
Right
now?
23
MS.
BROWN:
Not
the
tribes,
but
the
24
states
and
the
others.
25
MR.
SANTAMARIA:
We
have
eight
0041
1
states,
and
we
have
negotiated
goals
with
seven.
2
We
still
need
one
more.
They
need
to
do
an
3
availability
analysis.
4
MS.
BROWN:
In
this
regions,
those
5
numbers
are
pretty
small,
and
some
others,
say,
6
like
west
and
California
and
some
of
the
other
7
places
where
you're
looking
at
the
possibility
8
of
how
many
tribes
that
we
have
identified.
9
MS.
PATRICK:
Region
10,
271
tribes
10
in
Region
10
alone.
11
MS.
BROWN:
So
you're
talking
about
12
a
large
magnitude,
and
we'll
talk
about
some
of
13
the
exemptions
you
come
up
with,
so
that
we
14
don't
have
to.
This
is
a
burden
for
us
as
15
well.
This
is
something
we
had
not
envisioned
16
doing.
We
didn't
use
to
do
this
before,
but
17
the
new
law
of
the
land
is
something
we
have
18
to
do,
so
we're
trying
to
see
how
we
can
come
19
up
with
ways
to
lessen
that
burden
on
all
of
20
us.
21
So
basically
­­
we'll
talk
about
22
that
later
­­
you
find
some
of
your
larger
23
grant
recipients
who
get
a
substantial
amount
of
24
money
from
us
have
would
have
to
come
to
the
25
table
and
that
$
250,000
or
more
in
any
one
year
0042
1
under
one
or
more
programs,
and
we'll
get
into
2
that
a
little
bit
later.
3
MS.
PATRICK:
Also,
it
is
important
4
to
point
out
with
the
goals
because
we
know
the
5
cost
of
the
disparity
studies
and
the
6
availability
analysis
could
be
prohibited
for
a
7
lot
of
tribes.
It
is
an
option,
and
I
state
8
option
very
clearly,
if
the
tribe
wants
to,
and
9
the
goal
is
appropriate
for
them,
they
can
adopt
10
the
goals
negotiated
by
the
state.
11
If
they
look
at
the
state's
goal
and
12
they
see
that
it's
a
tangible
goal,
makes
sense
13
for
them,
that
they
buy
in
the
same
general
14
areas
and
the
same
types
of
things,
the
tribes
15
have
the
options
of
choosing
to
go
with
the
16
state
goal
if
they
want.
17
MS.
BROWN:
They
don't
have
to.
18
We're
not
saying
you
have
to
because
we
know
19
how
that
can
be,
but
if
you
look
at
it,
and
it
20
is
similar
to
what
your
make
up
is,
you
can
do
21
that.
That
is
not
just
something
we
do
with
22
the
tribes
but
other
grant
recipients
within
the
23
state
have
that
same
option.
Say
like
the
24
University
of
Georgia
because
they
may
be
a
25
grant
recipient,
they
can
choose
to
take
the
0043
1
state
goal
or
come
up
with
their
own.
2
What
we
have
found
with
a
lot
of
3
the
colleges
and
universities
that
they
have
4
their
own
minority
business
program,
and
they
5
have
done
and
have
their
own
program
set
up
and
6
have
goals
already
established
that
they
have
to
7
meet,
so
they
would
choose
what
we
have
seen
in
8
a
lot
of
instances
is
they
choose
to
go
with
9
what
the
colleges
and
universities
have
10
established.
But
we
try
to
give
people
an
11
option,
so
they
won't
have
to
take
this
large
12
burden
or
magnitude
on
immediately.
13
One
of
the
other
things
that
we
go
14
into
a
lot
of
detail,
and
it's
statistical
and
15
it
is
how
we
worked
with
the
Department
of
16
Transportation
on
how
to
calculate
fair
share
17
goals,
but
for
the
most
part
we
look
at
the
18
disparity
study
of
the
availability
analysis,
and
19
it
is
based
on
your
current
buying
practices,
20
and
if
you
keep
that
in
mind,
I
think
we're
21
okay.
22
There
is
a
provision
under
the
rule
23
where
race
and
gender
conscious
efforts
are
24
mentioned
to
the
extent
good
faith
efforts
prove
25
to
be
inadequate
or
ineffective
to
achieve
fair
0044
1
share
goals,
we
have
the
ability
to
encourage
a
2
recipient
or
prime
contractor
to
take
a
3
reasonable
race
or
gender
conscious
action
to
4
the
extent
necessary
to
more
closely
get
to
the
5
fair
share
goals
they
need
to
be
there.
Any
6
comments
on
that?
7
Okay.
The
exemptions
that
I've
been
8
talking
about,
the
EPA
is
proposing
to
exempt
9
recipients
from
any
EPA,
from
EPA
financial
10
assistance
agreement
in
the
amounts
of
$
250,000
11
or
less,
for
any
single
assistance
agreement
or
12
more
than
one
financial
assistance
agreement
13
combined
total
$
250,000
or
less,
and
any
one
14
fiscal
year
from
the
fair
share
negotiation
15
requirement.
16
The
exemption
is
only
from
17
negotiations.
The
good
faith
efforts,
the
six
18
affirmative
steps
are
not
something
that
we
can
19
exempt.
They
already
exist
under
the
program,
20
and
will
continue
to
exist
under
the
program,
21
and
we
don't
have
the
authority
to
exempt
22
anybody
from
it.
23
So
if
you're
a
grant
recipient,
you
24
should
already
be
doing
the
six
good
faith
25
efforts,
the
six
affirmative
step.
The
key
to
0045
1
all
of
this
is
documentation
to
your
file.
2
Because
as
a
grant
recipient
you
don't
know
when
3
we're
going
to
come
in
and
say
show
us
your
4
files,
tell
us
what
it
is
you
have
done
with
5
the
money.
6
So
as
a
grant
recipient,
and
you
7
take
this
back
to
your
tribes
in
particular,
8
they
really
have
to
document
how,
and
if
you
9
have
certain
parameters
already
established
10
within
the
tribal
government,
how
you
should
do
11
your
buying,
buying
tribal
first,
et
cetera,
all
12
of
information
should
be
embedded
into
your
13
recordkeeping,
so
that
it
is
not
made
up
as
we
14
go
along.
We
see
that
sometimes.
15
People,
not
just
with
the
tribes,
16
but
with
other
government
they
may
not
have
it
17
in
concrete,
etched
in
stone,
so
they
do
what
18
ever.
We
recognize
the
good­
old­
boy
network
19
system
is
alive
and
well
in
this
country,
and
20
they
change
the
rules
as
they
go
through
with
21
their
times
or
let
only
those
who
they
want
to
22
know
about
what
the
process
is,
what
it
is,
and
23
those
are
the
kinds
of
things
that
we're
looking
24
to
change.
25
MS.
PATRICK:
The
$
250,000
exemption,
0046
1
that
she
was
just
talking
about,
also
applies
2
under
the
ground
fills
and
the
safety
and
water
3
act­
type
loan.
That
is
our
act,
loans
in
the
4
program
for
EPA.
The
exemption
applies
there
as
5
well.
6
Moving
on.
We
also
have
exemptions
7
specifically
for
tribes
and
trusts,
also
for
8
trust
heritage
and
such.
Grants
and
tribes
9
intertribal
consortia
that
are
eligible
to
be
10
included
in
Performance
Partnership
Grants
are
11
exempt
from
fair
share
negotiations.
Technical
12
Assistance
Grants
are
also
exempted
from
the
13
fair
share
negotiations
requirements.
14
What
that
means
is
if
a
grantee
is
15
PPG
eligible,
not
that,
that
it
enrolled
into
a
16
PPG,
but
it
is
eligible
to
be
included
into
17
one,
those
grants
are
exempted
from
the
goals
18
and
the
fair
share
requirement.
That
does
not
19
mean
that
there
is,
this
is
not
an
exemption
20
from
the
six
good
faith
efforts.
It
is
not
21
exemption
from
having
to
report
back.
It's
only
22
an
exemption
from
negotiating
the
goal.
That
is
23
it.
All
those
other
things
are
still
in
place.
24
MS.
BROWN:
We
have
identified
25
probably
about
17
different
categories
that
this
0047
1
exemption
will
fall
under
with
the
various
grant
2
programs
that
we
have
in
the
agency.
3
MS.
PATRICK:
What
the
rule
for
4
Insular
areas
and
tribes,
the
fair
share
5
negotiation
requirements
­­
they
will
be
a
three
6
year
face
period
for
the
rule
for
tribes
and
7
trust
territories.
We
understand
that
the
8
process
of
negotiating
goals
is
new.
The
9
process
of
negotiating
goals
is
new
not
only
to
10
the
tribe,
but
it
is
new
to
us
as
well.
So
11
there
is
a
three­
year
phasing
period
to
make
12
sure
everybody
is
board.
13
Now,
expectation
is
during
that
time
14
is
if
you're
with
a
tribe
that
has
many
of
its
15
systems
and
everything
in
order,
the
expectation
16
is
as
you
are
ready
to
go
forward
with
17
negotiations,
we
want
that
to
get
started.
We
18
don't
want
everyone
to
wait
to
the
last
day
of
19
the
third
year,
and
say,
okay,
you
know,
now
I
20
want
to
come
and
negotiate.
That
will
defeat
21
the
purpose
of
a
phase
in
kind
of
thing,
but
22
we
want
to
give
the
program
time,
so
it
will
23
take
root
and
for
people
to
get
used
to
it.
24
During
that
time,
we
plan
on
doing
a
25
pretty
hopefully
massive
education
effort
to
get
0048
1
out
there
and
make
sure
the
tribes
understand
2
what
the
program
is
about,
and
they
understand
3
what
these
goals
are
about,
and
what
these
mean.
4
Make
sure
they
understand
a
large
5
part
of
that
these
goals
are
not
just
for
us,
6
but
in
terms
of
keeping
money
in
the
tribal
7
community.
Having
goals
set
in
terms
of
how
8
you
spend
your
money
keeps
your
money
recycling
9
where
you
are,
and
helps
the
tribe
grow,
and
it
10
helps
the
community
grow
as
a
whole,
so
that
is
11
one
thing
we
really
want
to
make
sure
of.
12
A
lot
of
things
we
have
here
are
13
not
just
about
so
we
can
count
beans.
A
lot
14
of
this
is
about
development,
not
only
with
the
15
businesses
there,
but
also
the
tribe
as
a
whole,
16
so
we
want
to
take
the
time
to
make
sure
that
17
takes
root.
18
Recordkeeping
and
reporting
19
requirement,
a
recipient
of
a
continuing
20
environmental
program
grant
or
other
annual
grant
21
would
be
required
to
create
and
maintain
a
22
business
list.
Such
a
list
must
only
be
kept
23
until
the
grant
project
period
has
expired
and
24
the
recipient
is
no
longer
receiving
funding
25
under
the
grant.
0049
1
This
is
a
new
requirement
for
the
2
recipient
in
terms
of
maintaining
a
list
of
3
people
or
entities
that
bid
on
contracts
under
4
that
grant.
Maintaining
a
bidder's
list
is
a
5
good
thing
because
it
develops
a
resource
for
6
the
recipient
in
terms
of
getting
to
know
a
7
little
bit
better
about
who
is
out
there
in
8
your
business
community,
particularly
the
9
minority
women­
owned
business
community,
who
10
they're
processed
with
the
six
good
faith
11
efforts.
It
makes
no
sense
to
go
to
the
six
12
good
faith
efforts,
find
all
these
businesses,
13
and
then
you
don't
have
a
resource
to
go
back
14
to
the
next
time.
You
have
a
requirement,
so
15
we're
making
sure
the
bidder's
list
is
16
maintained.
It
also
allows
us
to
take
a
look
17
at
what
your
practices
are.
So
if
a
list
is
18
maintained
we
can
sort
of
see.
19
Okay.
Well,
on
this
list
of
bids
20
you
only
have,
you
know,
minorities
or
21
women­
owned
business
contractors,
what's
sort
of
22
going
on
here,
what
is
happening.
So
the
23
bidder's
list
serves
a
number
of
functions.
24
MS.
BROWN:
We
need
to
make
sure
25
that
we
also
say
to
­­
we're
not
saying
a
0050
1
grant
recipients
has
to
contract
with
the
2
minority
or
women­
owned
business.
They
may
not
3
exist,
but
if
they
don't,
or
they've
done
gone
4
out
and
done
their
market
survey,
put
an
ad
in
5
the
newspaper
and
nobody
responded,
their
6
documentation
needs
to
show
or
reflect
what
they
7
actually
did,
so
that
we
have
the
documentation
8
to
say,
here,
this
is
what
our
ad
said.
This
9
is
where
it
was.
We
had
in
the
paper,
ran
it
10
for
a
series
of
two
weeks
or
a
month,
no
11
minority
businesses
came,
or
if
a
minority
12
business
did
come
in,
a
women­
owned
business.
13
They
couldn't
do
it
for
the
various
reasons
and
14
document
why.
Those
are
kinds
of
things
that
15
we're
looking
for
as
well.
16
The
bidder's
mailing
list,
and
we
17
did
get
quite
a
few
questions
stimulated
around
18
what
we
consider
a
bidder's
mailing
list.
It
19
is
something
we
need
to
go
back
and
take
a
20
look
at,
and
be
a
lot
more
clearer
on,
are
you
21
talking
about
the
availability
analysis,
that
is
22
inclusive
of
everybody,
or
are
you
talking
about
23
the
people
that
would
probably
come
in,
that
24
we've
already
identified,
or
this
same
similar
25
type
of
work
for
this
particular
requirement,
or
0051
1
are
you
talking
about
­­
actually
the
people
2
that
came
in
under
the
bid
is
that
the
bidder's
3
mail
in,
so
people
are
all
across
the
board
in
4
terms
of
what
they
think
the
definition
is.
5
So,
we're
looking
at
that
as
well.
6
Any
comments
or
questions
in
that
7
area?
8
MS.
PATRICK:
The
bidder's
list
9
requirement
is
also
required
under
the
loan
10
program,
under
the
ground
fill,
and
that's
our
11
program
as
well.
12
The
last
thing
I
talk
about
there
13
are
waivers.
For
the
first
time
the
rule
is
14
the
director
of
the
OSDBU
director
can
grant
15
waivers
from
any
requirements
under
Part
33.
16
They
are
not
based
on
the
statute
or
executive
17
order.
18
What
this
means
is
while
it
is
19
possible
that
the
director
may
be
able
to
grant
20
a
waiver
from,
let's
say,
negotiations,
which
is
21
not
in
statute
or
an
executive
order.
22
You
could
not
waive
the
requirement
23
for
the
six
affirmative
steps.
You
could
not
24
waive
the
other
requirements,
so
if
it
is
based
25
on
statute
or
executive
order,
no
authority
to
0052
1
grant
the
waiver,
you
have
to
do
it,
but
some
2
of
the
other
requirements
of
the
program,
if
3
there
is
a
legitimate
why,
you
can't
do
this.
4
This
is
impossible.
The
bidder's
list
we're
5
also
asking
that
you
keep
until
the
project
6
period,
until
it's
identified
or
the
loan
has
7
ended.
8
Recipients
are
required
to
comply
9
with
these
recordkeeping
requirements,
even
if
10
they
are
exempt
from
a
applying
the
fair
share
11
objective
requirement.
So
the
bidder's
mailing
12
list
is
good
for
the
project
life.
13
Waivers,
you
already
talked
about
14
that.
I
can
­­
currently
I'm
the
one
in
the
15
position
who
will
be
the
one
to
be
able
to
16
grant
waivers
on
a
case
by
case
basis.
17
Next
steps,
and
this
is
where
we
are
18
now,
we're
having
these
meetings
around
the
19
country
to
solicit
and
get
input,
and
make
20
people
aware
of
the
proposed
rule.
What
it
is
21
that
­­
we
are
hearing
from
many
people
it
is
22
the
first
time
that
many
people
have
come
to
23
know
the
two
ways
to
do
business
with
EPA
and
24
how
that
is.
25
There
is
a
list
of
all
our
grants
0053
1
under
catalogue
of
domestic
assistance,
and
you
2
can
get
there
from
our
website
going
to
3
www.
epa.
gov/
gab.
4
MS.
PATRICK:
Actually,
it
is
a
5
little
different.
You
don't
even
have
to
go
6
through,
don't
have
to
look
at
the
catalogue.
7
If
you
go
to
the
grant's
website
which
is
8
www.
EPA.
GOV/
OGS,
which
stands
for
office
grants
9
and
department.
Once
you
go
to
that
site,
10
there
is
somewhere
where
you
can
click
to
get
11
to
the
specific
grant
part
of
it.
That's
where
12
you
have
to
go.
Once
you
get
there,
there
is
13
a
button
where
you
can
where
you
can
pull
up
14
the
grant's
database.
You
can
actually
see
a
15
part
of,
get
on
line,
and
it's
part
of
the
16
whole
information.
The
information
is
there
for
17
you.
18
In
that
database
is
a
listing
of
all
19
our
grant
recipients.
The
money
that
they
have
20
received,
how
much
the
money
was
and
when
they
21
received
it.
All
that
information
is
public
22
information,
and
it
can
be
found
there,
and
that
23
can
give
you
an
idea
where
to
go
to
look
for
24
contract
dollars
if
you
know
they
have
got
the
25
money.
0054
1
Yes,
sir.
2
MR.
CRANE:
Jerry
Crane,
through
3
Alpha,
will
the
bidder's
list
also
end
up
on
4
that
website
in
terms
of
all
the
grants?
5
MS.
BROWN:
It
probably
won't.
6
MS.
PATRICK:
We
haven't
even
7
thought
that
far
ahead
with
the
process,
and
I
8
couldn't
imagine
that
it
would
not
because
it
9
could
be
considered
a
business
proprietary
type
10
of
information.
An
actual
bidder's
list
would
11
be
a
little
bit
too
much
information.
12
MS.
BROWN:
When
you
look
at
how
13
many
grants
we're
talking
about,
and
the
various
14
grant
recipients,
individuals
may
get
a
grant
15
from
EPA,
and
if
they
go
out
and
buy
something,
16
depending
on
how
much
it
is,
if
they
are
not
17
in
those
exempted
categories,
they're
included.
18
You're
talking
about
a
volume
there
19
that
we
probably
cannot,
and
it
is
based
on
20
what
they
do,
and
then
they
would
have
to
give
21
that
to
us,
and
somehow
I
don't
think
we
22
envisioned
that.
23
What
we
do
have
is
a
process
24
internally
where
the
grant
recipients
goals,
as
25
they
have
been
negotiated
by
MBE,
we
have
a
0055
1
person
like
Rafeal
and
everyone
of
the
ten
2
regions
who
help
carry
out
the
program,
when
3
they
negotiate
their
goals
and
put
that
on
an
4
Intranet
database,
so
that
the
grant
specialist
5
can
see
what
the
goals
are
as
they
have
been
6
negotiated
with
MBE
WBE
coordinators.
We
have
7
that
available.
To
put
the
bidder's
list,
I
8
don't
think
so.
9
Any
other
comments
or
questions?
10
MR.
MILES:
Johnny
Miles
again.
11
Would
we
be
able
to
contact
Rafeal?
I'm
12
assuming
he
is
in
the
Atlanta
area.
13
MS.
BROWN:
Yes,
he
is.
He
is
14
right
here.
He
is
your
point
of
contact.
15
Rafeal,
you
can
give
them
your
name,
phone
16
number,
and
he
has
got
a
card
for
you.
He
has
17
got
quite
a
few
of
them,
so
all
of
you
will
18
have
one.
It
is
good
to
know
him
because
he
19
can
put
you
also
in
contact
with
other
20
businesses.
A
lot
of
times
they
might
have
21
procurement
affairs
for
opportunities
within
the
22
region,
where
they
might
bring
you
in
some
of
23
the
other
grant
recipients
from
the
states
that
24
they
represent,
Georgia
and
Mississippi.
25
MR.
SANTAMARIA:
Georgia,
Alabama,
0056
1
Mississippi,
South
Carolina,
North
Carolina,
2
Kentucky,
Tennessee,
Florida.
3
MS.
BROWN:
Those
are
all
the
states
4
that
they
represent
here
in
this
region,
so
5
there
may
be
a,
tremendous
opportunities,
you
6
just
need
to
go
and
know
where
to
find
it,
so
7
he
is
a
resource
for
you
here
in
the
region.
8
We're
out
of
Washington
DC,
the
9
overall
managers
of
the
program.
Our
office
10
number
is,
area
code,
202­
564­
4100.
You
can
go
11
to
our
website
at
WWW.
EPA.
GOV/
OSDBU,
Office
of
12
Small
and
Disadvantage
Business
Utilization,
13
OSDBU.
14
MS.
ELLIS:
Sandra
Ellis.
So
you're
15
saying
that
the
grants
are
eligible
for
a
16
minority,
small
business,
or
an
individual
17
business
is
eligible
for
these
grants?
18
MS.
BROWN:
No,
these
grants
are
not
19
for
profit
organizations.
It
is
nonprofit,
20
private
individuals,
possibly
that
is
doing
21
research,
that
kind
of
thing,
colleges
and
22
universities,
tribal
government,
state
and
local
23
government,
the
trust
territories,
but
a
business
24
can't
go
after
grant
money
under
this
program.
25
Now,
if
your
tribal
government
0057
1
receives
a
grant,
and
there
are
businesses
on
2
the
reservation
or
under
the
tribal
government,
3
they
can
be
one
of
those
contractors,
if
they
4
go
out
buy
anything
in
one
of
those
four
5
categories,
but
the
tribal
government
is
the
6
entity
that
will
go
after
the
grant
and
not
the
7
business.
8
MS.
PATRICK:
For
example,
if
your
9
tribe
goes
to
get
the
SBA
certification,
the
10
tribe
itself
could
receive
a
grant
from
EPA
as
11
the
tribe,
not
your
business
entities,
where
if
12
you
apply
for
a
grant
with
EPA,
it
is
not
if
13
you
apply
for
a
tribe.
14
Okay.
Then
once
you
get
the
grant,
15
you
must
work
under
that
grant
that
your
tribal
16
business
can
do
with
that,
have
that
17
certification,
then
it
is
like
contracting
with
18
yourself,
but
that
is
pretty
much
how
it
works.
19
You
have
to
keep
it
separate
and
distinct
from
20
the
nonprofit.
21
MS.
ELLIS:
Are
you
saying
in
order
22
for
the
tribal
entity
to
receive
a
grant,
they
23
have
to
be
registered
with
EPA?
24
MS.
PATRICK:
No.
Well,
the
tribal
25
entity,
you're
talking
about
the
tribal
business.
0058
1
Once
this
rule
goes
into
effect
they
need
to
be
2
certified
as
a
business
under
the
grant
program.
3
Now,
if
they
want
to
do
direct
business
with
4
EPA,
that
is
a
whole
other
ball
of
wax,
they
5
don't
have
to
be
certified
to
do
direct
business
6
with
EPA.
7
MS.
BROWN:
Under
this
program
for
8
the
tribal
government
they
have
to
be
federally
9
recognized
Rafeal?
10
MR.
SANTAMARIA:
Excuse
me?
11
MS.
BROWN:
The
tribes
have
to
be
12
federally
recognized?
13
MR.
SANTAMARIA:
Yes.
14
MR.
HAMMER:
Is
it
possible
to
get
15
recognition
under
the
EPA
without
federally,
16
without
the
tribe
being
federally
recognized,
17
have
you
ever
come
across
that?
18
MS.
PATRICK:
Currently
the
way
our
19
program
is
set
up
is
that
we
would
only
certify
20
federally
recognized
tribes.
21
MR.
JOHNSON:
How
can
we
change
it?
22
MS.
PATRICK:
Send
in
your
comments
23
to
be
perfectly
honest.
Send
in
your
comments,
24
your
suggestions,
you
know,
your
reasons
or
25
whatever
you
think
that
we
should.
I
don't
0059
1
believe
that
is
one
that
is
completely
a,
you
2
know,
a
nail
shut
issue,
but
it
is
something
we
3
would
visit.
4
I
want
to
make
it
really
clear
that
5
when
we
receive
comments,
we
take
them
very
6
seriously.
We
have
to
consider
them.
We
have
7
to
develop
what
our
response
was
to
them.
That
8
is
published
in
the
Federal
Register
after
all
9
the
process
is
gone
through,
so
it
is
not
a
10
small
thing
to
make
a
comment
or
to
send
one
11
in
because
it
can
result
in
changes.
12
A
lot
of
changes
you
see
in
here
13
with
the
exemptions
are
direct
results
of
14
comments
we
received
from
tribes
across
the
15
country,
back
before
certifying
women­
owned
16
businesses,
direct
result
of
comments
we
received
17
across
the
county.
So
your
comments
are
18
important.
We
need
them,
so
when
I
say
one
of
19
the
best
ways
to
get
into
the
middle
of
the
20
issue,
it
would
be
to
submit
a
formal
comment
21
to
let
us
know.
22
MS.
BROWN:
That
is
a
concern
and
23
something
we
need
to
look
at
from
your
24
perspective.
25
MR.
JOHNSON:
David
Johnson.
In
0060
1
reference
to
the
federally
recognized
and
2
nonfederal
recognized,
we
have
got
roughly,
and
3
I
don't
remember
the
exact
numbers,
but
4
somewhere
in
the
neighborhood
of
500­
and­
some­
odd
5
federally
recognized,
a
grand
total
of
some
6
excess
of
800
tribes
that
are
state
recognized
7
or
tribal
entities
or
what
have
you,
and
some
8
of
the
federal
recognized
tribes
have
been
9
derecognized,
have
been
rerecognized,
and
when
10
you
get
into
this
dilemma
of
back
and
forth,
11
that
creates
a
problem
because
there
are
places
12
that
are
just
very
slow
about
recognizing,
and
13
to
be
frank
here
in
the
state
of
Georgia
that
14
we're
actually
in,
probably
the
state
of
Georgia
15
will
never
recognize.
They
did
and
then
16
rescinded,
and
as
far
as
allowed
because
the
sad
17
fact
is
Indians
or
Native
Americans
are
still
18
not
welcome
in
a
lot
of
areas,
you
know?
19
About
three
years
ago
I
was
at
an
20
official
recognition
from
some
of
the
Oklahoma
21
groups
to
come
back
into
the
State
of
Alabama,
22
which
happened
down
at
Fort
Mitchell,
where
in
23
the
1830s
our
people
had
to
leave
and
go,
so
24
this
is
a
real
problem
on
quote,
unquote,
who
25
is
recognized.
If
we
get
some
education
money
0061
1
from
the
federal
government
and
turn
right
2
around
and
say,
well,
you're
not
federally
3
recognized,
so
it
is
one
of
these
partial
deals,
4
and
we
got
into
the
dilemma
we'll
go
all
or
5
none.
Well,
we
don't
want
that.
We
want
our
6
recognition
to
be
able
to
do
business
as
who
we
7
are,
rather
than
a
classification
that
someone
8
reaches
up
here
and
says,
okay,
we're
going
to
9
recognize
these
and
not
these
because
the
10
800­
something
tribes,
and
the
government
is
11
saying
we're
federally
going
to
recognize
550
or
12
so,
I
mean,
that
is
a
real
problem
with
us.
13
MS.
BROWN:
Put
that
comment
and
14
that
issue
and
concern
in
writing
to
us
so
we
15
can
take
a
look
at
it.
We
have
it
on
the
16
transcript.
17
MR.
WILLIAMS:
George
Williams.
18
Some
of
these
state
recognized
tribes,
even
19
though
they
are
a
state
recognized
tribe
and
not
20
federally
recognized,
I
mean,
if
they're
in
21
small
rural
communities,
I
mean,
they're
eligible
22
for
other
types
of
grants
from
the
federal
23
government,
from
EPA.
24
MS.
PATRICK:
See
federally
25
recognized,
also
we
recognize
in
terms
of
0062
1
getting
grants,
you
know,
we
can
monitor
stuff.
2
I
don't
know
if
that
is
a
huge
issue.
I
have
3
to
look
at
the
grant
regulations
to
make
sure
4
I'm
speaking
the
truth
here,
but
we
can
give
a
5
grant
to
a
university
or
a
nonprofit,
and
it
is
6
not
based
on
anything.
I
mean,
the
grant
7
process
is
a
little
different.
You
submit
your
8
paperwork
for
the
grant
based
on
what
your
need
9
is.
So
if
you're
in
a
situation
where,
let's
10
say,
there
are
grants
available
to
put
in
a
11
sewer
system,
and
your
area
needs
that
12
particular
sewer
system,
you
can
apply
for
the
13
grant,
and
I'm
not
sure
if
those
same
types
of
14
distinctions
are
made.
I
don't
know
if
we
have
15
grants
only
for
tribes
or
not.
I'm
not
sure.
16
MS.
BROWN:
I
think
we
do.
17
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
probably
with
18
the
grants
that
are
only
for
tribes.
Maybe
19
there,
the
distinction
between
the
federally
and
20
nonfederally
recognized,
but
in
terms
of
grants
21
who
are
just
opened
for
anybody
to
a
apply
for,
22
of
course,
you're
eligible
for
it,
but
I
need
23
to
look
at
the
regulations
to
answer
that
24
conclusively.
25
So,
I
mean,
I
don't
think
not
being
0063
1
federally
recognized
is
a
bar
to
give
you
all
2
grant
money.
It
just
depends
on
how
the
grant
3
is
written,
and
what
the
requirement
are
for
4
each
particular
grant.
They
may
vary.
5
MR.
JOHNSON:
David
Johnson.
Do
you
6
have
a
list
of
good
grant
writers?
7
MS.
PATRICK:
I
don't
know
any
right
8
offhand.
9
MS.
BROWN:
There
is
a
group,
and
I
10
can't
think
of
it.
Does
the
National
Center?
11
Do
you
assist
with
grant
writing?
12
MR.
GREGORY:
We
do
have
some
13
references,
but
we
don't
do
grant
writing,
but
14
we
have
some
in
the
Microsoft
database.
15
MS.
BROWN:
Why
don't
you
check
with
16
the
National
Center
to
see
who
they
have.
17
There
is
a
husband
and
wife
team,
18
Greenwoods.
They
do
some
extensive
working
with
19
I
know
a
lot
of
historically
black
colleges,
20
minority
institutions,
and
some
of
the
colleges
21
and
universities
on
grant
writing
and
working
22
with
them
to
understand
what
the
process
is
23
because
a
large
part
of
this
is
knowing
how
to
24
write
the
grant,
how
to
be
responsive
and
to
25
give
us
what
we
ask
for,
those
kind
of
things.
0064
1
We
do
have
in
our
doing
business
2
with
EPA
­­
do
you
have
any
of
the
black
books
3
Rafeal.
4
MR.
SANTAMARIA:
We
have
run
out
of
5
them,
but
I
could
get
them
for
you.
6
MS.
BROWN:
In
there
there
is
an
on
7
line
that
will
take
you
step
with
by
step
for
8
filling
out
the
grant
application,
so
that
might
9
be
a
good
tool
for
you
if
you
can
ask
us
to
10
take
a
look
to
what
we're
asking
for,
what
you
11
need
to
fill
out.
12
Let
me
go
back,
and
I'll
making
a
13
note
to
at
least
get
to
you
the
Greenwoods'
14
information.
Of
course,
these
are
just
15
suggested
sources.
I
can't
tell
them
if
you
go
16
to
them
and
you
get
a
grant.
I
can't
say
that
17
either.
18
MR.
MILES:
Johnny
Miles.
I'd
like
19
to
follow
up
on
something
he
said
earlier.
The
20
State
of
Georgia,
they
don't
recognize
any
21
Native
American
tribes
at
all
within
the
state.
22
And
I'm
from
Tennessee,
Kingston,
and
the
last
I
23
heard
when
I
enlisted
with
the
state
five
years
24
ago,
I
was
the
only
Native
American
contractor
25
with
the
State
of
Georgia.
0065
1
From
my
understanding
there
are
just
2
not
that
many
contractors,
and
when
I'm
going
3
out
looking
for
different
projects,
it
really
4
never
came
into
play.
I've
always
been
a
5
little
bit
passed
over
on,
you
know,
that
is
6
why
I
started
going
as
a
prime
contractor
7
looking
at
say
under
a
million
dollar
jobs,
8
half­
million
dollar
jobs,
stuff
that
I
could
do.
9
That
is
what
I'm
trying
to
find
out
10
is
how
does
a
Native
American
company
enlisted
11
with
the
state,
how
do
I
make
that
work
to
my
12
advantage?
I
hate
to
say
it
that
way,
but
how
13
do
I
make
sense
out
of
that?
14
MS.
BROWN:
I'll
tell
you
again.
A
15
lot
of
these
programs,
quote,
unquote,
the
state
16
and
local
jurisdictions
are
moving
away
from
17
them
as
preference
programs,
a
lot
of
them,
and
18
when
we
start
looking
out
west
with
the
State
19
of
California
and
the
State
of
Georgia,
they
20
have
done
away
with
their
minority
business
21
programs
all
together.
22
They
don't
even
collect
data
on
the
23
number
of,
or
register
minority
businesses
in
24
their
states.
They're
saying
it
is
not
a
25
factor.
They
don't
have
any
issues.
There
is
0066
1
no
disparity.
We
know
differently.
But
those
2
states
have
chosen
to
do
that.
3
They
recognize,
though,
that
when
you
4
take
this
federal
government
money,
this
is
5
different,
so
when
they
take
the
federal
funds,
6
this
program
is
still
in
existence,
so
they
have
7
to
figure
out
how
they're
going
to
get
the
8
federal
money
and
maintain
the
requirements
that
9
we
say
that
come
with
this
money.
That
is
why
10
I
say
you
can't
just
come
to
the
table
and
try
11
to
get
the
money
and
say,
don't
bother
me
12
anymore.
I
got
my
grant.
That
is
it.
13
Doesn't
work
that
way.
14
MS.
PATRICK:
In
terms
of
working
15
your
tribal
status
to
your
advantage,
let's
say,
16
you're
in
the
State
of
Georgia
where
they
don't
17
recognize
any
tribes,
okay,
to
the
extent
that
18
Georgia
may
or
may
­­
I'm
not
sure
about
19
Georgia's
program.
Let's
say
Georgia
does
have
20
a
minority
business
contracting
program
the
state
21
uses,
okay?
22
MR.
MILES:
They
go
­­
23
MS.
PATRICK:
Just
because
you're
24
from
an
Indian
tribe,
a
Native
American,
that
25
doesn't
conclude
you
from
still
being
a
0067
1
minority,
and
so
you
apply
for
these
programs,
2
and
you
go
after
these
contracts
in
your
3
minority
status,
because
I
don't
know
of
4
anybody's
minority
definition
and
regulation
does
5
not
include
Indian
or
Native
American
in
their
6
definition
of
who
is
a
minority.
7
MR.
WILLIAMS:
George
Williams.
8
Just
to
answer
give
you
an
example,
there
is
a
9
construction
company,
and
it's
one
of
our
10
clients
that
are
an
8­
A
contract,
and
actually
11
they're
very
successful.
They
are
called
All
12
Points
Logistics,
and
he
is
a
member
of
the
13
Georgia
Confederacy
of
the
Cherokee.
Now,
he
14
was
able
to
get
his
8­
A
certification
based
on
15
he
is
a
member
of
the
state
recognized
tribe,
16
and
he
has
been
an
8­
A
program,
and
has
been
17
quite
successful,
but
as
a
member
of
a
state
18
recognized
tribe,
it
does
qualify
you
as
a
19
minority,
makes
you
eligible
for
the
SBA
20
programs;
however,
as
a
member
of
a
state
21
recognized
tribe,
you
are
not
eligible
to
the
22
federal
programs
that
are
available
to
members
23
of
federally
recognized
tribes.
So
there
is
a
24
difference.
25
Some
people
say,
well,
I
must
be
0068
1
fairly
legally
recognized
because
the
SBA
gave
2
me
my
8­
A
certification.
No,
that
is
not
the
3
case.
The
SBA
just
looked
at
your
particular
4
situation
and
deemed
that
you
were
a
socially
5
disadvantaged
individual,
not
that
you
were
a
6
member
of
a
tribe.
So
that
is
the
difference.
7
And
that
is
what
you
need
to
pursue
with
your
8
8­
A
certification.
9
MS.
BROWN:
Ma'am,
do
you
have
a
10
question?
11
MS.
KATHY:
My
name
is
Kathy.
I
12
own
a
manufacturing
corporation
in
Guntersville,
13
Alabama.
The
way
that
I
got
Cherokee
heritage
14
recognized
because
I
found
my
relatives
through
15
a
blood
relation.
My
relative
were
on
the
Doss
16
and
the
Doss
is
federally
recognized.
There
are
17
five
recognized
roles
in
the
United
States.
My
18
family
was
registered
on
the
Doss.
I
am
19
federally
recognized
by
the
Cherokee
tribe.
20
MR.
HAMMER:
You
as
an
individual
21
are
federally
recognized?
22
MS.
KATHY:
There
are
five
23
recognized
roles
in
the
United
States.
If
your
24
family
is
on
those
roles,
you
can
find
25
bloodline,
you
are
federally
recognized.
0069
1
MR.
JOHNSON:
You
get
a
check.
2
MS.
KATHY:
That
is
what
my
senator
3
told
me,
and
that
is
how
I've
worked.
4
MR.
JOHNSON:
Do
you
get
a
check?
5
MS.
KATHY:
No,
I
don't
get
a
6
check.
7
MR.
JOHNSON:
That
is
where
the
line
8
ends.
9
MS.
PATRICK:
Let
me
do
this.
The
10
hearing,
if
all
matters
concerning
our
lovely
11
little
rule
are
closed,
can
we
say
that?
Have
12
we
any
more
questions
on
the
rule?
You
can
13
stop
reporting.
We're
done
with
the
hearing.
14
(
Whereupon,
this
meeting
was
concluded
15
at
11:
30
a.
m.)
16
.
17
.
18
.
19
.
20
.
21
.
22
.
23
.
24
.
25
.
0070
1
STATE
OF
GEORGIA:
2
COUNTY
OF
FULTON:
3
I
hereby
certify
that
the
foregoing
4
transcript
was
reported,
as
stated
in
the
5
caption,
and
the
questions
and
answers
6
thereto
were
reduced
to
typewriting
under
my
7
direction;
that
the
foregoing
pages
represent
8
a
true,
complete,
and
correct
transcript
of
9
the
evidence
given
upon
said
hearing,
and
I
10
further
certify
that
I
am
not
of
kin
or
11
counsel
to
the
parties
in
the
case;
am
not
12
in
the
employ
of
counsel
for
any
of
said
13
parties;
nor
am
I
in
anywise
interested
in
14
the
result
of
said
case.
15
.
16
.
17
.
18
.
19
.
20
.
21
.
22
.
23
.
24
.
25
.
0071
1
Disclosure
Pursuant
to
Article
2
8(
B)
of
the
Rules
and
Regulations
of
the
3
Board
of
Court
Reporting
of
the
Judicial
4
Council
of
Georgia,
I
make
the
following
5
disclosure:
6
I
am
a
Georgia
Certified
Court
7
Reporter,
here
as
a
representative
of
8
Alexander
Gallo
&
Associates,
Inc.,
to
report
9
the
foregoing
matter.
Alexander
Gallo
&
10
Associates,
Inc.,
is
not
taking
this
11
deposition
under
any
contract
that
is
12
prohibited
by
O.
C.
G.
A.
5­
14­
37
(
a)
and
(
b).
13
Alexander
Gallo
&
Associates,
14
Inc.,
will
be
charging
its
usual
and
15
customary
rates
for
this
transcript.
16
.
17
.
18
19
N.
GAIL
STUDSTILL,
CCR­
B­
2294
20
.
21
.
22
.
23
.
24
.
25
.
