___________________________________________________________

ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION
AGENCY
PUBLIC
HEARING
Proposed
Disadvantaged
Business
Enterprise
Utilization
Rule
___________________________________________________________

November
13,
2003
Jackson
Federal
Building
Seattle,
Washington
REPORTED
BY:
Yvonne
A.
Gillette,
CCR
No.
2129.

Seattle
Deposition
Reporters
206.622.6661
600
University
Street,
Suite
320,
Seattle,
Washington
2
*******

MS.
HAGANSEN:
We're
beginning.
Good
morning
everyone.
I'm
Julie
Hagansen,
assistant
regional
administrator
for
EPA,
region
ten.
Region
ten
includes
Washington,
Oregon,
Alaska,
and
Idaho.
I
was
asked
to
give
some
opening
remarks
here,
which
means
that
I'm
not
really
all
that
important
to
these
proceedings,
other
than
to
welcome
you
all
to
Seattle.
For
someone
like
me
who
group
up
in
western
Washington,
born
and
raised
here,
to
have
weather
like
this
at
this
time
of
year
is
quite
wonderful.
I
am
getting
to
the
point
where
any
day
without
rain
and
gloom
is
quite
nice.

Most
of
you
know
that
EPA
grants
a
lot
of
money
every
year
through
our
granting
process
or
cooperative
agreement
process
to
states,
tribes,
nonprofits,
and
educational
institutions.
In
fact,
these
organizations
in
our
granting
process
result
in
approximately
60
to
70
percent
of
our
total
budget
for
this
region.
And
in
my
mind,
I
think
that's
great.
I
worked
for
many
years
in
one
of
our
field
offices.
And
the
work
that
I
saw
done
by
tribes,
states,
and
other
entities
really
convinced
me
that
most
of
the
real
environmental
work
on
the
ground,
environmental
work
gets
done
by
others.
And
so
I
think
EPA's
grants
and
cooperative
agreements
are
very
important
to
environmental
protection.

Seattle
Deposition
Reporters
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University
Street,
Suite
320,
Seattle,
Washington
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You're
here
today
to
hear
more
about
a
small
but
important
rule,
that
concerns
MBE/
WBE,
the
minority
business,
women's
business
enterprise.
If
you
work
in
government
long
enough,
you
finally
have
to
have
fun
with
all
of
our
acronyms
so.
We
lovingly
refer
to
that
as
MBE
WBE,
soon
to
become
the
Disadvantaged
Business
Enterprise.
And
you'll
hear
more
about
this
today.

This
is
your
opportunity
to
listen
and
also
to
comment.
Your
concerns
and
ideas
will
be
dually
noted,

and
considered
and
addressed
when
our
final
document
is
delivered.

Today
we
have
David
Sutton,
from
our
office
of
disadvantaged
and
minority­­
close
enough
and
this
is
another
wonderful
acronym.
We
refer
to
it
as
OSDBU.

And
he
and
others
will
be
sitting
up
here.
We
also
have
Kim.
And
she
will
tell
you
more
about
this
rule.
And
I
hope
you
like
the
proceedings
today.
Thank
you
all
for
coming.
It
is
a
beautiful
day.
Thank
you.

MR.
SUTTON:
Thank
you.
Good
morning.
I'm
going
to
stand
over
here
so
that
I
can
look
at
you,
talk
to
you
as
well,
as
well
as
talk
about
what's
on
the
slides.

Again
my
name
is
David
Sutton.
I'm
a
deputy
director
of
the
EPA
office
of
OSDBU.
Jeanette
was
not
able
to
attend
today.
We
also
have
Kimberly
Patrick,
who
is
one
of
our
staff
attorneys.
What
Kim
and
I
are
going
to
do
Seattle
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Reporters
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Street,
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Seattle,
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4
is
tell
you
a
little
bit
about
this
rule,
summarize
it,

give
you
the
key
points.
And
then
we'll
give
you
an
opportunity
to
ask
questions
and
give
us
your
input.

That
is
the
purpose
of
these
public
hearings,
to
make
sure
we
get
your
comments
on
the
rule.
We
need
to
know
what
you
think
about
it.

Your
concerns,
the
comments
you
give
us
will
be
taken
down.
They
will
be
recorded.
And
we
will
get
a
transcription
and
also
encourage
you
to
give
us
comments
in
writing
on
the
rule.
And
Kimberly
will
talk
about
that
process.

Let's
go
to
the
first
chart.
Before
I
tell
you
why
we're
doing
the
rule
making,
let
me
tell
you
a
little
more
about
our
program.
Right
now
it's
called
the
EPA
MBE
WBE
program.
And
basically,
the
intent
of
this
program
is
to
make
sure
that
the
minority
business
community
and
the
women
owned
small
business
community
gets
their
fair
share
of
EPA
procurements
coming
from
EPA
assistance
agreements.
What
does
that
mean
in
English?
What
it
means
is
when
EPA
gives
a
grant
or
other
type
of
assistance
to
any
entity,
whether
that
be
another
federal
agency,
a
state
government,
or
a
nonprofit,
we
try
to
make
sure
that
minority
and
women
owned
businesses
get
their
fair
share
of
any
procurements
that
come
from
those
grants
or
agreements.

Seattle
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For
example,
we
give
a
grant
to
the
state
of
Washington.
Washington
awards
contracts
to
get
something
done
with
that
grant
money.
Then
our
program
kicks
in
to
help
ensure
that
the
minority
and
women
owned
business
community
gets
their
fair
share
of
those
procurement
dollars.
That's
the
program
in
a
nutshell.

Why
are
we
doing
a
rule
making?
To
make
sure
that
our
program
meets
the
strict
scrutiny
of
the
Supreme
Court
decision
of
Adarand
v.
Pina,
which
was
rendered
back
in
1995.
That
particular
decision
mandated
that
any
such
program
such
as
our
program
meet
the
compelling
governmental
interest
and
have
strict
scrutiny.
In
other
words,
it
has
to
really
be
narrowly
tailored
to
make
sure
it
is
meeting
its
intent.
So
that's
the
main
reason
we're
doing
a
rule
making,
to
make
sure
we
meet
the
strict
scrutiny
of
Adarand.
Before
this
rule,
we
have
had
a
series
of
guidance
documents.
And
this
rule
will
codify
the
process
and
be
in
strict
compliance
with
the
Adarand
decision.

Okay.
What
are
the
key
elements
of
our
proposed
rule?
There
are
ten
or
eleven
of
these.
Before
I
talk
about
key
elements,
I
think
maybe
the
charts
may
have
gotten
a
little
out
of
line.
I
want
to
talk
about
the
overall
goals
for
the
program.
EPA
has
two
overall
goals
for
participation
of
disadvantaged
businesses
and
Seattle
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6
women
owned
businesses
in
this
program.
There's
a
10
percent
goal
and
an
8
percent
goal.
The
10
percent
goal
relates
to
any
grants
or
assistance
agreements
that
relate
to
the
Clean
Air
Act
Amendment
of
1990.
The
goal
for
everything
else
is
8
percent.
So
we
have
two
national
goals.

Before
the
Adarand
decision,
we
put
that
percent
goal
of
8
or
10
percent
goal
in
every
grant.
Going
back
to
my
example,
we
would
have
either
put
a
goal
in
there
of
10
percent
or
8
percent.
After
the
Adarand
decision,

we
could
no
longer
use
those
goals
in
individual
grants.

Those
became
national
goals.
But
it
has
to
be
based
on
the
availability
of
minority
and
women
owned
business
in
the
geographical
area.
What
that
required
us
to
do
is
hold
negotiations
with
all
of
our
50
states.
Even
though
we
have
those
two
national
goals
of
8
percent
and
10
percent,
the
actual
goals
in
every
grant
can
range
from
a
low
of
one
percent
in
an
area
like
Vermont,
where
you
have
few
minority
owned
businesses,
to
a
goal
as
high
as
36
percent
in
an
area
like
California.

That's
the
gist
of
how
this
program
works.
The
goals
of
each
grant
are
going
to
be
based
on
the
availability
of
minority
and
women
owned
businesses
within
the
requisite
geographical
areas.

The
first
key
element
is
the
name
change.
We
Seattle
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talked
about
the
MBE
WBE
program.
But
now
this
program
is
going
to
be
the
Disadvantaged
Business
Program,
which
will
be
all
encompassing
of
minority
owned
business,

women
owned
businesses,
or
any
other
disadvantaged
businesses.
Number
two,
certification
will
now
be
required.
In
the
past,
if
you
came
forward
to
any
grant
recipient
and
said,
I'm
a
minority
owned
business,
look
at
me,
don't
I
look
like
one,
that
was
accepted.
But
to
make
sure
our
program
is
in
compliance
with
a
lot
of
the
SBA
regulations,
certification
will
now
be
required.

Number
three,
the
six
good
faith
efforts.
I
won't
go
into
detail
on
these,
but
they
relate
to
efforts
the
grant
recipients
will
have
to
make
to
try
to
attract
disadvantaged
business.
Next
there
are
a
number
of
contract
administration
provisions.
Again
we're
going
to
go
into
more
detail
on
those,
talk
about
requirements
on
both
prime
contractors
and
on
grant
recipients.

I
talk
about
the
fair
share
goals.
The
example
I
made
was
1
in
Vermont
and
36
in
California.
We're
going
to
have
to
give
you
a
little
more
detail
in
how
we
go
about
determining
those
goals.
Submission
of
fair
share
goals.
We're
going
to
talk
about
how
those
are
evaluated
by
the
EPA,
how
they
are
negotiated,
and
how
they
are
submitted.
And
also
we're
going
to
talk
about
race
and
gender
conscious
efforts.
These
are
additional
Seattle
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actions
that
we
can
take
if
we
are
not
able
to
meet
our
goals
through
race
and
gender
neutral
efforts.

There
are
some
exemptions.
We're
going
to
go
into
details
about
those.
A
key
area
is
going
to
be
the
treatment
of
insular
areas
and
Indian
tribes,
areas
like
Guam,
Puerto
Rico.
In
the
past,
we
have
treated
both
insular
areas
and
Indian
tribes
differently.
We
made
the
assumption
that
any
grants
going
to
those
groups
were
one
hundred
percent
going
to
minorities,
we
know
that
doesn't
happen.
We
get
a
phone
call
from
our
regional
offices.
We
gave
a
grant
of
five
million
dollars
to
the
Cherokee
nation
to
implement
an
environmental
program.
They
awarded
a
five
million
dollar
contract
to
a
nonminority,
nonwomen
owned
business,
and
we
counted
it
as
going
to
minorities.

Basically
as
the
rule
is
proposed,
tribes
and
insular
areas
will
be
treated
just
as
everyone
else.
They
will
have
to
negotiate
goals,
have
to
report
the
actual
accomplishments.
And
we
will
only
report
exactly
what
they
did.

Okay.
And
then
recordkeeping
and
reporting.

Grant
recipients
are
required
to
submit
reports
to
us
either
quarterly
or
annually.
In
the
case
of
state
recipients,
they
report
quarterly.
Nonprofits
report
annually.
And
then
number
eleven
is
waivers.
We'll
Seattle
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9
talk
a
little
bit
about
waivers.
We
can
grant
waivers
from
some
of
the
requirements
for
this
program.
So
we'll
talk
a
bit
about
that.
Those
are
the
areas
we're
going
to
cover.
I
am
now
going
to
turn
the
floor
over
to
our
capable
staff
attorney,
Kimberly
Patrick,
who
will
go
into
a
little
more
detail
about
the
proposed
rule.

MS.
PATRICK:
I
would
like
to
say
when
I
was
speaking,
I
forgot
to
introduce
somebody
else.
That's
Marie
McPeak
of
our
staff.
She's
the
local
person
here.

If
you
have
a
question,
please
contact
Marie.
Marie
is
a
very
important
person
to
know.
She
is
going
to
be
your
first
line
of
contact
if
you
have
questions
about
the
rule
or
if
you
have
questions
in
general
about
the
program,
she's
the
person
you
are
going
to
want
to
talk
to
initially.
She's
also
quite
a
wonderful
person
as
well.

Before
I
get
going,
I
would
like
to
drive
this
according
to
what
your
questions
are
and
what
you
want
to
know,
because
we
all
know
legal
mumbo
jumbo
can
get
boring.
I
don't
want
anybody
falling
asleep
on
me.
So
does
anyone
have
any
burning
questions?

MS.
FLOREZ:
Victoria
Florez.
My
question
is
I'm
certified
as
an
MBE,
WBE
as
a
small
business.
How
easy
or
difficult
will
it
be
to
be
certified?

Seattle
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MS.
PATRICK:
I
had
a
feeling
this
was
going
to
get
a
number
of
questions.
Currently,
the
way
we
have
it
proposed
in
the
rule
is
that
an
entity­­
we
will
accept
certifications
from
SBA
from
DOT
if
you
already
have
one,
from
state
local
and
municipalities
and
tribal
governments
if
they
have
the
certification
in
place,
as
long
as
the
criteria
for
those
programs
meet
the
same
standard
that
we
set
up
for
our
program.
EPA
does
not
want
to
be
in
the
certification
business.
So
to
the
extent
possible
it
makes
it
easier
for
both
the
small
business
community
or
minority
owned
business
community,

it
makes
no
sense
to
recertify,
especially
if
the
criteria
are
the
same.
DOT,
we'll
accept
their
certifications
as
long
as
the
individual
or
the
business
is
a
U.
S.
citizen,
which
is
something
that
DOT
doesn't
currently
require,
but
SBA
does.
And
we
drafted
our
regulations
to
be
in
line
with
SBA.
That's
a
huge
part
of
their
purpose.
So
that's
why
our
regs
are
sort
of
directed
to
how
the
SBA
program
is
set
up.

MR.
TOIMIL:
Does
the
state
of
Washington
Minority
Certification
Program
meet
the
EPA
guideline?

MS.
PATRICK:
I
did
an
initial
review
of
each
state's
program
to
see
generally
how
much
certification
we
have
to
do
in
particular
areas.
Currently
Washington
state's
program
is
in
flux.
It's
been
shifted
away.
It
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was
kind
of
hard
to
tell
whether
or
not
Washington
state
had
a
program
to
the
extent
that
they
used
to,
because
if
we
looked
at
the
old
criteria,
it
would
be
in
line
with
what
we
currently
have.
But
because
of
some
things
going
on,
it's
kind
of
hard
to
tell
what
shape
Washington
state's
program
is
going
to
end
up
in.
So
the
initial
review
of
whether
or
not
those
criteria
will
be
the
same
will
have
to
take
place
on
a
case
by
case
basis.

One
more
thing.
Currently
SBA
does
not
certify
women
owned
businesses.
So
we
have
already
identified
categories
that
would
be
certified
by
EPA
as
a
matter
of
first
impression.
We
know
we
have
to
certify
women
owned
businesses.
Unless
your
state
or
locality
has
a
certification
for
disabled
American
owned
businesses,

private
or
volunteer
organizations,
entities
which
are
certified
and
criteria
which
are
inconsistent
with
EPA
criteria
and
any
entity
claiming
that
it
is
owned
or
controlled
by
socially
economic
disadvantaged
individual.
Those
are
the
five
categories
that
we
know
we
would
have
to
certify
as
that
matter
of
first
impression,
because
no
one
else
currently
does.

MR.
WINSTON:
My
name
is
Willy
Winston.
I
work
with
king
county.
If
a
firm
is
denied
certification
by
a
local
entity,
can
they
appeal
that
denial
to
the
EPA?

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320,
Seattle,
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12
MS.
PATRICK:
They
cannot
appeal
to
us,
because
that
is
a
part
of
a
local
process.
And
we're
not
going
to
intervene.
Now,
if
that
entity
is
denied
certification
by
the
local
entity,
if
they
want
to
then
petition
EPA
for
certification,
yes,
we
will
take
that
application
under
consideration
as
we
would
any
other.

MR.
KLON:
My
question
relates
to
how
the
certification
is
going
to
interact
with
other
certifications,
specifically
with
the
old
dot
two
certification.
If
you
go
forward
and
certify
someone
under
the
EPA
technically,
they
would
have
that
name,

the
DBE
certification,
and
with
the
uniform
application
of
SBA,
how
are
these
things
going
to
interact,
and
what
is
your
working
relationship
going
to
be
with
your
agencies?
I'm
from
Oregon.
So
we're
having
a
huge
amount
of
dollars
coming
for
highway
infrastructure.

And
they
are
coming
in
with
very
creative
businesses
to
get
certified.

MS.
PATRICK:
I
am
fully
aware
that
DOT
and
SBA
do
have
a
memorandum
of
understanding
between
each
other.

We
currently
have
not
developed
such
a
memorandum.
So
an
EPA
certification
will
only
be
good
at
EPA.
However
we
are
accepting
DOT's
and
SBA's,
as
long
as
the
citizenship
requirement
is
met.
So
it
is
one
way
currently.
But
I
am
sure
that's
something
we
can
look
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at.
It
would
make
sense.

One
of
the
reasons
why
we
changed
the
name
of
the
program
was
to
be
consistent
using
DBE.
Something
people
are
familiar
with
is
the
highway
program,
so
we
made
that
switch
so
people
can
recognize
who
we
are.

UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
I
guess
I
walked
in
a
little
late.
I
am
certified
as
a
WBE
MBE.
I
have
to
also
certify
for
EPA?

MS.
PATRICK:
It
would
depend
on
what
the
criteria
were.
If
you
meet
our
criteria,
we
would
accept
the
certification
you
already
have.
If
you
looked
at
your
certification
of
what
the
requirements
were,
if
they
are
similar
or
the
same
as
SBA's,
then
that
will
also
meet
our
standards.

MR.
ROSS:
Good
morning.
I
have
a
question
about
transparency
for
the
EPA
and
the
businesses
that
work
for
you.
Is
there
going
to
be
a
listing
of
qualified
businesses
within
the
EPA?
Is
there
going
to
be
a
listing
of
prime
contractors
that
work
with
you?
Is
that
information
public?
How
do
we
find
out
about
it?

MS.
PATRICK:
In
terms
of
once
we
start
certifying
people,
we
will
be
maintaining
a
database.
We
do
plan
on
the
information
being
public.
We
couldn't
keep
it
secret
if
we
wanted
to.
In
terms
of
whether
or
not
we
have
a
database
of
our
current
contractors­­
we
do.

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MR.
SUTTON:
In
fact,
we
actually
do
maintain
a
database
in
our
office
of
small
business
firms
that
have
expressed
an
interest
in
doing
business
with
EPA.

Eventually
that
database
will
be
on
the
internet.
Right
now,
it
is
only
within
our
office.
As
firms
give
us
their
capability
statements,
we
do
add
them
to
our
database.
That
way,
if
anybody
called
in
and
said
I'm
looking
for
a
firm
to
do
X,
whether
that
be
IT
work
or
whatever,
we
could
then
make
a
referral.

MS.
PATRICK:
If
you
are
talking
about
contracts
that
have
already
been
awarded,
OAM­­
that's
available
automatically.

MS.
GENERRO:
My
question
is,
are
you
going
to
go
through
the
steps
that
we
need
to
do
to
become
registered?

MS.
PATRICK:
Yes.
I
am
going
to
go
through
that.

Okay.
Our
current
criteria
is
that
an
entity
must
be
owned
and
or
controlled
­­
that's
very
important
­­
by
a
socially
and
economically
disadvantaged
individual.

There's
a
reason
why
we
have
and
or.
Most
of
the
time
with
SBA,
DOT
it's
and.
It's
very
interesting.
When
the
statutes
were
written
for
the
Clean
Air
Act,
I
think
someone
wasn't
quite
looking
at
what
was
going
on.
The
wording
in
the
statute
says
an
entity
must
be
owned
or
controlled.
And
the
10
percent
statute,
the
entity
must
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be
owned
and
controlled,
dot,
dot.
We
can't
go
back
and
change
the
statute,
so
we
have
to
live
with
what
was
written
for
us.
So
we
have
to
accept
both
entities
that
are
owned
or
controlled,
one
or
the
other,
and
entities
that
are
owned
or
controlled
by
socially
and
economically
disadvantaged
individuals.
And
that
goes
to
the
determination
of
your
status
as
being
economically
disadvantaged.
In
terms
of
being
socially
disadvantaged,
there's
a
very
long
list
of
individuals
that
are
considered
socially
disadvantaged
as
a
matter
of
first
impression.
That
includes
a
long
list
of
minorities.
However,
if
an
individual
can
or
wants
to
submit
evidence
of
social
disadvantage
who
are
not
a
member
of
those
groups.
They
are
still
encouraged
to
apply
to
the
program.
And
a
determination
will
be
made
as
to
the
social
disadvantage
status
of
the
individual.

Women
are
automatically
considered
on
that
list
of
socially
disadvantaged
individuals.
So
that's
currently
another
thing
that's
added
in
with
our
particular
criteria.
And
outside
of
that,
that's
pretty
much
it
for
what
our
criteria
would
be.

MS.
GENERRO:
I
was
a
little
confused.
I
was
a
little
confused.
I
got
on
the
internet
to
register
for
the
Pronet.
And
I
know
that
on
the
certification
categories,
it
only
forced
me
to
put
in
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16
individually
or
something
like
that.
I
can't
recall
the
details.
It
locked
me
out
of
being
able
to
certify
in
any
other
way.
So
I
was
wondering
if
­­
do
you
belong
to­­
how
does
the
Pronet
system
relate
to
your
agency?

MS.
PATRICK:
As
it
relates
to
our
agency,
it
is
just
an
information
source.
It
is
not
something
that
we
have
very
much
to
do
with.
As
SBA's
database
of
certified
or
small
businesses,
we
use
it
sometime
as
a
resource
to
find
small
businesses
that
are
certified.

But
we
have
very
little,
almost
nothing
to
do
with
that.

I
have
no
idea.

MS.
GENERRO:
That's
one
good
thing.
I
am
sure
that's
how
you
got
my
name
then.
Not
you,
but
the
agency.

MR.
SUTTON:
You
said
you
tried
to
enter
your
certification.

MS.
GENERRO:
Yeah.
And
it
doesn't
allow
me
to
do
it
other
than
to
self­
certify.

MR.
SUTTON:
I
am
thinking
with
the
Pronet
system,

the
certification
is
probably
fed
by
SBA.
You
probably
can't
just
say
I'm
certified,
unless­­
my
feeling
is
that
the
SBA
probably
populates
that
information
based
on
the
firms
that
have
been
certified.
But
that's
just
my­­

MS.
GENERRO:
Even
with
the
certification
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information
and
number
and
everything
else
and
the
documentation
for
that.
If
you
indicate
you
are
certified
with
DOT,
it
is
not
allowing
you
to
take
it.

What
it
is
taking
is
hub
zone
and
8(
a)
certification,

which
is
something
you
would
want
to
consider.
It
would
be
so
nice
and
simplify
the
process.
A
lot
of
a
different
agencies.
We're
running
around
and
trying
to
get
on
a
network.

MR.
SUTTON:
It
is
a
good
point
to
be
communicated.

MS.
GENERRO:
I
don't
believe
that
you
can
be
SBA
certified
just
as
a
woman
owned
business.
And
the
hub
zone
thing,
I
have
never
figured
it
out
yet.
But
you
are
saying
for
your
program
you
can
be
a
woman
owned
business.

MS.
PATRICK:
Exactly.

MS.
GENERRO:
I
wondered
if
there
was
any
plans
to
merge
the
databases
with
the
state
databases.
I
know
here
in
Washington
there's
an
extensive
database
of
DBE
and
WBE
participants.
If
that
could
be
combined,
it
would
be
a
lot
simpler.

MS.
PATRICK:
At
this
time,
I
am
not
sure
if
we
have
entertained
any
such
idea.
I
have
no
knowledge
of
any
other
agencies
to
do
that,
not
that
exists.
I
am
not
sure.

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MR.
COLUMBA:
My
question
relates
to
­­
I
know
this
sounds
like
a
bad
thing.
Would
you
be
listing
the
state's
programs
that
you
will
not
accept?
I
know,
but
if
you
are
in
a
state
that
that
program
does
not
meet
par,
then
sort
of
would
have
to
be
notified.
The
other
side,
I
read
in
the
literature
that
you
will
be
accepting
private
certifiers.
I
am
interested
to
hear
a
little
bit
more
about
that,
and
will
EPA
have
also
private
certifiers
for
their
other
areas
of
publication?

MS.
PATRICK:
We
had
a
lot
of
discussion­­
a
lot
of
questions
about
the
private
certifiers
during
the
process.
And
we
spoke
with
SBA
and
asked
them
what
their
experience
was
like.
And
they
related
to
us
nothing
but
a
nightmare
in
terms
of
using
them.
And
the
cost
was
exorbitant
to
use
them.
The
reason
why
we
left
that
in
the
regulations
is
to
give
us
an
option
if
later
on
we
decide
to
do
that.
Our
initial
plans
are
to
not
use
private
certifiers.
But
currently
it
is
not
something
we
are
going
to
do.
If
a
state
or
whatever
uses
private
certifiers,
and
you
have
a
certification
from
that
private
certifier
who
has
been
dually
commissioned
by
the
state
to
do
this,
then
we
will
accept
that
certification
if
it
meets
our
criteria.
But
in
terms
of
EPA
having
private
certifiers
or
using
them,

it's
not
something
we
plan
on
doing.

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MS.
GENERRO:
Follow
up
on
that.
Perhaps
in
the
National
Association
of
Women
Certification,
which
is
not
a
private
certifiers.
It
is
their
own
certification
that
is
in
line
with
the
DBE
and
the
SBA
program.

MS.
PATRICK:
To
be
honest,
that
is
the
first
time
I
have
heard
of
it.
I
am
giving
you
an
answer
off
the
top
of
my
head
here.
I
believe
they
would
be
deemed
a
private
certifier,
because
they
are
not
from
a
state
or
another
federal
agency.
I
think
for
all
purposes,
that
would
be
classified
as
a
private
certifier.

MS.
FLOREZ:
I
wanted
to
revisit
the
comment
I
heard
earlier
about
the
master
license
concept.
And
just
to
restate
that
I
would
much
appreciate
even
a
low
tech
version
of
that,
where
there
was
a
form
with,
say,

DBE,
SBA,
State
of
Washington,
King
County,
EPA,

opportunities
to
fill
out
our
MBE/
WBEs
on
double
sided
sheets
of
paper
with
one
document,
stapled,
and
handed
to
me,
would
be
a
huge
service.
And
I
wanted
to
restate
that.
It
doesn't
have
to
be
a
real
high
tech
thing.

But
this
would
be
a
wealth
of
service
in
my
opinion,
and
I
would
like
to
encourage
that.

UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
I
second
it.

MR.
WINSTON:
Will
the
EPA
require
a
unified
certification
process
like
the
U.
S.
DOT?

MS.
PATRICK:
Currently
we
do
not.
Mostly
because
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we
anticipate
the
numbers
of
certifications
that
the
EPA
will
have
to
do
itself
will
be
extremely
low.

MR.
WINSTON:
Are
you
talking
about
when
and
how
would
you
be
able
to
make
application
at
EPA
for
certification?

MS.
PATRICK:
Once
the
rule
goes
final,
which
we
are
hoping
there's
only
maybe
two
years
until
the
process
to
get
that
done,
once
we're
done
in
the
comment
period,
which
ends
in
January,
we
have
to
go
back
to
the
EPA
process
and
get
a
buy
in
and
then
the
approval,
and
then
the
administrator
has
to
sign
it.
And
then
it
has
to
go
back
to
the
federal
register
as
a
final
rule.

With
all
that
involved,
at
the
earliest,
a
year
and
a
half.
At
the
latest,
I
am
trying
two
years.
At
that
point,
once
the
rule
is
a
final
rule,
that's
when
our
certification
program
will
begin.

MR.
WINSTON:
Just
follow
on.
In
the
meantime,
I
think
the
current
certification
program,
can
you
explain
on
that
a
little
bit?

MS.
PATRICK:
What
we're
doing
right
now,
people
self­
certify.
There
was
no
program.
You
are
whoever
you
say
you
are.
If
you
knock
on
our
door
and
say
you're
big
bird
and
you
want
to
be
certified,
that
is
fine.
If
you
believe
it,
we
believe
it.
There
is
no
standard
right
now.

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MR.
SUTTON:
What
would
happen
if
you
went
to
the
grant
recipient.
Again,
use
the
State
of
Washington.

And
you
said,
okay,
I
want
to
go
after
this
procurement,

I'm
a
women
owned
business,
they
take
your
word.

MS.
PATRICK:
Once
in
place,
the
state
of
Washington
will
have
to
ask,
where's
your
certification?

MS.
FLOREZ:
Following
up
on
that,
how
does
one
know
what
moneys
are
in
this
area
from
the
EPA?

MR.
SUTTON:
That's
a
very
good
question.
Where
did
Marie
go?
She
is
our
region
ten
MBE
WBE
coordinator.
And
she
is
our
regional
point
of
contact
for
this
area.
If
you
wanted
to
know
which
state
agencies
or
which
nonprofits
are
getting
the
EPA
grant
dollars,
Marie
is
the
person
to
talk
to.
And
we
also
have
these
people
in
all
ten
of
our
regions.
Our
business
card
is
on
the
back
table.
If
you
contact
us,

we
can
give
you
those.

MS.
MCPEAK:
And
my
business
card
is
also
on
the
back
table.
Give
me
a
call
and
I
will
point
you
in
the
right
direction.
And
we
would
like
to
get
you
in
the
database
that
OSDBU
maintains
and
also
on
the
list
for
direct
procurements
from
EPA,
because
we
have
also
a
contact
in
Kansas
City.
We
don't
have
a
procurement
office
in
our
own
region
right
now.
So
all
of
our
direct
procurements
that
we
buy
things
for
EPA
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themselves,
that's
all
done
out
of
Kansas
City.
And
then
you
can
be
notified
of
any
procurements
that
would
be
available
to
you.
You
would
have
a
chance
to
bid
on
those.
So
do
get
in
contact
with
me,
and
I'll
be
able
to
help
you
with
that.

MR.
SUTTON:
I
would
like
to
follow
up
about
your
earlier
program
comment.
That
is
the
federal
contracting
program,
hub
zone
for
historically
underutilized
business
zones.
To
be
hub
zone
certified,

you
have
to
have
a
principle
office
of
your
business
in
one
of
these
hub
zones,
and
35
percent
of
your
employees
must
come
from
a
hub
zone.
This
is
a
program
that
relates
to
economic
development.
It
is
not
race
based,

sex
based.
It
is
looked
on
very
favorably,
because
it
helps
economics.
That's
the
idea.
You
can
go
to
SBA's
web
site,
key
in
a
ZIP
code
or
street
address.
You
can
find
out
whether
or
not
your
business
is
in
a
hub
zone.

MS.
FLOREZ:
Is
there
a
size
standard
for
hub
zone
business?

MR.
SUTTON:
Just
have
to
be
small
based
on
that
type
of
work.

MS.
BROWN:
Being
8(
a)
certified
also
qualifies
you
then
through
the
DBE
for
the
EPA.
Would
you
send
in
your
application
or
the
acceptance
letter?

MS.
PATRICK:
You
would
do
an
EPA
certification
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form.
It's
a
shorter
one.
You
indicate
that.
You
send
in
proof
of
that
certification,
and
you
will
get
our
certification.
So
it
is
very,
very
short
process.
And,

yes,
currently
we
do
accept
8(
a)
certification.

MS.
BROWN:
And
determination
of
personal
worth,

net
value
of
worth,
do
you
do
it
by
the
tribe
or
by
the
company?
Because
there
aren't
individuals.

MS.
PATRICK:
The
net
worth
only
applies
to
individuals
as
we
have
it.
In
terms
of
determining
whether
or
not
a
particular
tribe
is
economically
disadvantaged,
we
would
go
by
SBA's
current
standards
for
determining
that.
We
got
a
lot
of
questions
about
that.
And
we
need
to
go
back
and
clarify
more
exactly
how
that
process
works.
Currently
we
say,
see
SBA's
rules
for
that
particular
part.
We're
going
to
spell
it
out
in
our
rule
to
make
it
very
clear
of
how
that
works
and
how
we
determine
economic
disadvantage.

MS.
FLOREZ:
My
question
is
about
your
majority
contract
or
your
majority,
the
people
that
get
your
money.
How
do
you
encourage
them,
or
what
is
the
current
encouragement,
and
what
is
the
future
encouragement
to
actually
hire
minority
and
women
owned
businesses?

MS.
PATRICK:
That
leads
to
the
good
faith
efforts
that
they
have
talked
about.
The
direct
procurement
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side
of
the
house
has
its
own
program.
This
is
only
for
people
who
receive
contracts
under
grants
that
EPA
gives.
Every
single
grant
has
terms
and
conditions
in
it.
One
of
those
terms
and
conditions
concerns
our
program.
Those
requirements
are
­­
some
of
the
requirements
are
called
the
six
good
faith
efforts.
One
thing
we
have
done,
we
have
merged
them
and
are
calling
them
all
six
good
faith
efforts.
So
we
merged
them.

This
is
what
they
are.
Those
efforts
require
a
contractor
to
do
certain
things
to
solicit
disadvantaged
and
women
owned
businesses
for
use
under
the
grants
they
receive
from
EPA.
It
requires
them
to
do
solicitations
to
these
businesses,
making
sure
that
the
whole
process
is
fair.

I
need
to
point
out
our
program
is
not
an
affirmative
action
program.
So
to
that
extent,
we
can
not
have
quotas.
What
we
can
do
is
strongly
encourage,

which
is
what
we
hope
the
six
good
faith
efforts
do.
We
negotiate
goals.
And
most
of
the
time,
the
recipient
is
very
much
interested
in
meeting
their
goals.
And
we
have
noticed
that
as
we
get
people
at
least
soliciting
the
businesses,
a
lot
of
times
it's
easier
to
say,

there's
no
one
to
do
this.
Once
we
require
them
to
go
and
look,
a
lot
of
things
come
up.
That
part
of
the
process
is
more
of
the
encouragement
that
you
are
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25
talking
about
to
get
them
to
go
to
these
businesses.

One
thing
we
have
learned
once
we
talk
about
the
contract
administration
provisions
that
we
have
in
the
rule,
we
see
a
lot
of
times
a
prime
contractor
will
say
we're
going
to
use
a
long
list
of
subcontractors
who
are
minority
owned
businesses.
Once
we
get
the
contract,

they
disappear,
something
happens
to
them.
One
of
the
things
we're
looking
at
with
our
new
contract
administration
provisions
are
designed
to
sort
of
limit
the
bait
and
switch
that
happens
sometimes.
The
first
is
that
a
recipient
must
be
notified
in
writing
by
its
prime
contractor
prior
to
any
termination
of
a
DBE
subcontractor.
Second,
when
a
DBE
subcontractor
fails
to
complete
its
work,
the
recipient
must
require
a
prime
contractor
to
make
good
faith
efforts
in
hiring
another
subcontractor.
If
a
sub
is
let
go
for
any
reason,
a
DBE,
that
prime
contractor
has
to
go
through
the
same
six
affirmative
steps
that
we
have
talked
about
before
that
the
recipient
had
to
go
through
to
get
the
prime.

And
even
after
one
is
terminated,
they
have
to
do
that
again.
The
next
thing
is
the
recipient
must
require
its
prime
contractor
to
make
the
good
faith
efforts,
even
if
the
fair
share
objectives
are
met.
They
do
their
whole
contractor
thing
and
they
have
met
the
25
percent.
What
we're
saying
is
if
The
state
of
Washington,
let's
say
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they
meet­­
let's
say
it's
September,
October.
State
of
Washington
just
got
millions
of
dollars
to
do
some
project.
Under
that
millions
of
dollars,
there's
25
percent
goal
on
that,
so
250
thousand
has
been
used
with
the
minority
owned
business
through
one
of
their
prime
contractors
who
got
a
sub.
We're
saying
when
you
go
out
and
spend
the
rest
of
that
money,
your
prime
still
has
to
go
through
those
six
affirmative
steps.

MR.
WINSTON:
You
in
your
proposal,
you
are
saying
that
the
contractor
must
notify
a
recipient
of
any
change
in
the
subcontractor
with
DBE.
I
suggest
that
you
change
that
to
say
that
a
contractor
must
receive
a
recipient's
approval
prior
to
changing
subcontractors.

I
have
been
in
the
business
for
about
somewhere
close
to
35
years.
And
if
you
don't
tighten
it
up,
it's
not
going
to
work.

MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

MS.
FLOREZ:
One
follow
up.
With
your
majority
contractors,
if
you
find
they
have
had
a
10,
20,
or
zero
percent
participation,
is
there
any
teeth
in
a
repeat
of
them
receiving
a
grant?

MS.
PATRICK:
We
have
some
teeth,
but
they
are
not
very
sharp.
Totally
honest
with
you.
And
that's
primarily
because
we
have
to
be
extremely
careful
to
avoid
potential
legal
challenges,
because
programs
like
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320,
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27
these
are
just
targets
right
now.
And
we
can't
come
off
as
though
we
are
making
anyone
do
something
or
we
are
forcing
them
to
go
a
particular
way
with
the
contracting.
And
so
while
there
are
some
things
we
can
do.
For
example,
once
a
recipient
gets
money,
they
have
90
days
to
negotiate
a
goal
with
us.
If
they
do
not,

they
can't
spend
their
money.
We
can
freeze
the
money.

That's
one
of
the
new
things
that
we
have
in
the
provision.
There
is
some
things
we
can
do
with
the
recipient,
but
we
can't
reach
out
and
touch
that
prime,

because
that's
not
really
a
relationship
that
we
have
too
much
to
do
with,
other
than
to
say
they
have
to
go
through
those
six
good
faith
efforts.
But
that
type
of
provision,
you
can't
overlook
this
requirement,
you
need
to
do
something,
you
have
to
look
toward
this
as
you
are
doing
your
procurements.
So
that
type
of
provision
is
the
thing
we
sort
of
try
to
give
it
a
little
more
teeth.

MS.
GENERRO:
Following
up
on
the
question
about
­­
well,
my
question,
what
is
the
EPA
going
to
do
about
auditing
both
the
agencies
and
their
accepting
certification
as
well
as
the
contract
and
contracts
associated?

MS.
PATRICK:
You
mean
auditing
in
terms
of
actual
financial
type
of
audit?

MS.
GENERRO:
Ensuring
that
the
contract
is
being
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met
as
intended
and
not
waiting
until
the
end
to
see
if
they
are
doing
it
along
the
way.
But
also
agencies
­­

like
when
you
started,
you
didn't
know
whether
Washington's
program
would
make
it.
Would
there
be
a
provision
in
the
EPA's
rule
that
would
require
the
EPA
to
do
an
audit
of
the
program?
Federal
highway
does
that.
Every
agency
has
to
have
an
audit.

MS.
PATRICK:
One
of
the
sort
of
newer
trends
right
now
with
EPA
is
to
particularly
pay
attention
to
our
rates.
Congress
has
been
pushing
back
on
us
and
finding
great
fault
with
the
fact
that
we
have
not
been
going
out.
And
we
don't
use
the
term
auditing,
but
we
do
oversight
reviews.
One
of
the
things
we
have
been
discussing
with
the
grants
office
is
that
we
would
go
along
to
make
sure
that
provisions
regarding
our
program
are
being
met
along
with
that
process.
Another
one
of
the
things
we
could
do
is
we
can
always
request
a
paper
audit
or
paper
review
of
what's
going
on.
To
the
extent
that
people
in
our
office
can't
be
present
for
those
reviews,
their
review
checklists.
And
our
program
is
on
that
list
of
things
that
they
are
supposed
to
look
for.

So
we
are
very
aware
that
the
oversight
part
is
sort
of
missing.
And
we're
working
really
hard
to
beef
that
up.

MS.
GENERRO:
In
the
program,
are
you
planning
to
have
some
language
in
there
to
protect
against
false
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certification?

MS.
PATRICK:
I
think
the
biggest
thing
is
you
are
not
supposed
to
lie
to
the
federal
government.
So
all
of
our
certifications
are
under
the
penalties
that
can
be
imposed
by
18
USC
1001,
which
is
saying
it
is
a
crime
to
lie
or
falsify
things
when
the
government
is
asking
questions,
including
on
forms
and
everything.
So
they
would
be
under
that
same
type
of
penalty.
If
we
go
out
and
find
­­
we
do
plan
to
do
more
oversight.
If
we
find
out
that
someone
has
lied
about
their
certification,
we
can
definitely
forward
the
case
to
our
attorneys
to
look
more
into
that.
If
you
ask
me,
I
used
to
be
in
suspension
and
debarment.
I
loved
it.
So
I
am
very
much
aware
of
that
penalty.
If
it
is
up
to
me,
most
definitely,
yes,
the
attorney
in
me
would
love
to
send
someone
up
the
river
for
that.
But
that's
my
view
on
it.

MS.
FLOREZ:
With
the
idea
in
the
vein
of
the
win
win
situation
here,
and
since
we
have
a
vested
interest
of
getting
the
work
with
these
majorities,
is
there
anything
you
could
do
for
us,
a
class
we
could
attend
where
we
get
a
little
card,
take
that
card
to
visit
potential
customers
that
we
are
certified
with
the
EPA,

and
that
we
have
some
kind
of
reporting
system
six
months
to
every
year,
whatever,
that
says
we
work
with
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such
and
such
a
contractor,
doing
a
good
job,
got
your
grant
money,
we
have
a
vested
interest.
And
they
would
win.
We
would
win
obviously
by
working
for
them.
And
that
word
gets
back
to
them.
And
you
keep
a
score
card
or
whatever.
Thinking
low
tech.
Not
trying
to
make
this
real
difficult,
but
some
opportunity
for
us
to
have
a
class
or
two
that
makes
us
more
knowledgeable
so
we
kind
of
know
what
the
rules
are
and
tell
them
we
know
that
they
need
to
have
these
goals
and
we're
here
to
help
them
and
we
have
a
direct
line
to
the
EPA.
And
just
gives
a
little
bit
more
power.
We're
not
a
big
EPA
company,
but
we
can
maybe
use
some
of
your
shadow.

MS.
PATRICK:
That's
something
we
haven't
thought
about.
That's
one
of
the
reasons
we're
having
these
hearings.
I
would
think
that
empowering
a
potential
subcontractor
to
report
back
and
say
I
did
work
here
is
a
good
way
to
complete
the
loop
for
our
process
as
well.

MS.
DENEVILLE:
I
want
to
ask
you
question.
I
have
a
women
owned
business.
Under
the
criteria,
I
look
like
I
qualify
as
a
disadvantage
business.
Is
there
going
to
be
any
kind
of
parallel
relationship
with
State
of
Washington
and
their
DOT
program?
It's
painfully
slow.

MS.
PATRICK:
The
question
was
asked.
If
you
have
a
DOT
certification,
we
would
accept
that
as
long
as
you
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meet
the
citizenship
requirement.
However
there
is
no
reciprocity
between
us
and
them.
That's
the
way
it
currently
looks.
An
EPA
certification
would
only
be
good
at
EPA.

MS.
GENERRO:
My
question
also
in
line
with
having
something
that
shows
that
you
are
certified.
Are
you
going
to
do
outreach?
Because
there
will
be
firms
that
do
not
qualify
under
the
state,
when
they
do
the
calculations
as
to
the
utilization,
if
you
have
not
been
doing
outreach
to
firms
that
may
qualify,
then
you
really
have
obscure
numbers.
So,
I
mean,
so
eventually
there
should
be
a
database
for
every
state.
Because
then
there's
four
categories
that
are
not
being
considered
by
most
states.
And
they
will
miss
out
on
those
opportunities.

MS.
PATRICK:
Outreach
is
something
that
my
office
currently
does
a
lot
of.
We
realize
with
the
advent
of
this
rule
that
outreach
efforts
will
have
to
be
increased,
particularly
with
the
certification
component.
So
that's
a
great
idea.
That's
something
that
we
do
know
we're
going
to
be
focussed
on.

Okay.
There
was
one
other
contract
administration
provision
that
a
recipient
must
require
its
prime
contractor
pay
its
subcontractor
for
satisfactory
performance
within
a
certain
number
of
days.
We
have
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heard
a
lot
of
words
back
that
for
some
reason
subcontractors
aren't
getting
paid
in
a
timely
manner,

if
they
are
getting
paid
at
all.
This
provision
is
in
place
so
once
the
recipient
has
paid
the
contractor,

there
has
to
be
a
stipulated
number
of
days
after
which
the
sub
will
have
to
get
paid.

MR.
CAMPBELL:
The
question
I
have,
is
there
retainage
on
these
projects?
Well,
a
lot
of
the
public
work
contracts
have
a
five
percent
retainage.

MS.
FLOREZ:
Just
construction.

MR.
CAMPBELL:
I'm
working
on
a
project
now.
My
work
was
completed
in
2002.
I'm
still
redoing
the
retainage.

MS.
PATRICK:
That's
not
something
I
am
familiar
with
or
aware
of,
not
something
we
address.

MR.
SUTTON:
I
would
think
these
contracts
that
we
were
talking
about
would
not
be
EPA
contracts.
They
would
be
contracts
made
by
a
grant
recipient.
Therefore
a
contract
with
the
State
of
Washington,
you
would
need
to
address
that
issue
with
the
entity
awarding
the
contract.
I
would
say
however,
if
you
were
a
subcontractor
on
a
contract
that
was
awarded
EPA
grant
funds,
if
you
were
having
a
problem,
you
could
talk
to
us,
and
we
would
talk
to
the
grant
recipient.

MR.
CAMPBELL:
I
would
suggest
that
you
dictate
a
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you
know
­­
if
you
give
a
recipient
that
kind
of
flexibility,
you
are
going
to
have
some
of
them
saying
ten
days
and
some
of
them
saying
sixty
days.
The
other
thing,
I
would
also
suggest
that
you
take
a
look
at
some
language
that
will
address
retainage
because
that
is
a
big
problem.

MS.
PATRICK:
I
already
talked
about
provisions
regarding
the
fair
share
goals,
concerns
they
have,
90
days
to
complete,
the
moneys
frozen,
we
talked
about
procurement.
I
didn't
mention
the
four
categories,

construction,
services,
equipment,
and
supplies.
And
we
look
at
those
four
categories.
It's
just
about
everything,
which
means
a
recipient
could
not
go
out
and
buy
anything
without
our
program.
If
a
recipient
is
using
those
funds
for
salaries,
our
program
does
not
kick
in.
That
is
the
one
category
we
can't
go
out
and
say
you
have
got
to
go
hire
a
bunch
of
minority
people.

There's
no
way
we
could
do
that.

MS.
FLOREZ:
And
services
would
not
be
labor?

MS.
PATRICK:
It
would
be
hiring
a
consultant,

that
type
of
thing,
but
it
would
not
include
salaries
for
employees
who
correctly
work
for
you.

MR.
KLON:
Would
the
EPA
support
any
type
of
assistance
for
insurance,
especially
environmental
insurance,
that
when
you
are
working
with
any
firm
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that's
doing
any
type
of
environmental
mitigation
to
that
respect,
even
if
you
are
a
consultant
doing
whatever
it
may
be,
you
are
required
to
carry
this
environmental
pollution
insurance,
because
it
is
required
by
the
prime
in
most
cases.

MS.
PATRICK:
Currently,
you
asking
about
if
our
program
kicks
in
when
they
go
in
­­

MR.
KLON:
Would
there
be
any
provisions
to
support
any
type
of
assistance
with
that
type
of
insurance?

MS.
PATRICK:
We
have
had
a
lot
of
questions
about­­
it
was
phrased
as
bonding
in
others.
I
guess
insurance
in
this.
Same
type
of
thing.
Currently,
no.

We
don't
have
a
program
that
would
address
getting
assistance.
We
have
heard
a
lot
of
complaints
that's
one
major
bar
for
a
lot
of
small
companies
is
the
cost
of
insurance
and
bonding.
And
it
prohibits
them
from
being
competitive.
And
so
we
have
heard
the
cry,
but
we
don't
currently
have
a
program
under
works
or
in
place
or
developed.
We
haven't
even
thought
about
it
in
terms
of
assisting
with
that.

MR.
KLON:
Just
to
make
a
distinction
between
bonding
and
insurance,
the
reason
being,
a
lot
of
firms
can
mitigate
bonding.
A
prime
can
choose
to
not
have
a
particular
firm
bonded.
But
with
the
insurance,
a
lot
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of
larger
firms
are
required.
They
can't
get
away
with
it.
And
that
becomes
a
real
hardship.

MS.
PATRICK:
There
are
some
exemptions
that
we
have
in
the
program.
The
exemptions
would
be
the
first
one
is
that­­
okay.
For
entity
or
recipient
receiving
250
thousand
dollars
or
less
for
any
single
grant
or
250
thousand
dollars
or
less
as
an
aggregate
total
of
grant
money
for
one
year,
that
particular
recipient
would
be
exempted
from
negotiations
under
our
rule.
That
would
be
an
exemption
only
from
negotiating
the
fair
share
goals.
That
is
not
an
exemption
from
reporting
requirements.
That
is
not
an
exemption
from
the
fair
share
objectives.
That's
only
an
exemption
from
the
negotiation
if
the
grants
are
250
thousand
dollars
or
less
for
any
single
grant
or
aggregate
total
grants
in
one
fiscal
year.

MS.
FLOREZ:
Why
is
that,
just
the
volume
of
load
for
you?

MS.
PATRICK:
Yes,
pretty
much
just
to
reduce
the
hardship
on
us
in
terms
of
reducing
the
negotiations.

And
that
was
borne
out
of
some
internal
EPA
issues
sorts
of
things,
and
also
we
don't
have
the
manpower
to
negotiate
that
large
volume
negotiations
that
would
have
to
take
place.

MR.
SUTTON:
When
we
had
a
draft
rule,
we
had
a
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lot
of
communities
with
small
grant
recipients,
farmers,

people
getting
small
grants.
And
there
were
indications
that
going
through
the
process
of
negotiating
goals
would
be
a
hardship
for
these
types
of
grant
recipients
when
getting
a
one
time
deal.
It
is
not
a
lot
of
money,

why
should
they
negotiate
goals.

MS.
PATRICK:
For
the
SRF
and
ground
fields
type
of
programs,
the
revolving
loan
type
of
programs
for
entities
receiving
250
thousand
dollars
or
less
and
the
same
aggregate
total
for
the
year,
they
would
be
exempted
from
applying
the
fair
share
requirements
under
those
for
the
loan
programs.
The
next
exemption
would
only
apply
to
tribal
recipients
which
is
that
grants
to
tribes
that
are
eligible
to
be
included
in
PPG
would
be
exempt
from
the
fair
share
negotiations.
They
would
be
exempt
from
the
negotiations
part.
But,
again,
not
exempt
from
the
reporting
and
not
exempt
for
the
fair
share
objectives.

Let's
see,
also
for
the
insular
areas
and
for
tribes,
there
will
be
a
three­
year
phase
in
period
for
this
rule.
We
understand
that
for
them,
negotiations
are
brand
new.
We
have
never
had
them
do
negotiations.

Grants
recipients
which
are
tribes,
insular
areas,
all
of
them,
there
will
be
a
three­
year
phase
in
period
for
this
rule.
During
that
period,
EPA,
our
office
is
going
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to
be
under
a
major
push
for
education,
education,

education
and
to
start
the
negotiations
with
some
of
the
tribes
that
are
larger
and
more
able
to
begin
that
process.

Also
one
of
the
other
things
that
we
sort
of
didn't
do
in
terms
of
the
reporting,
while
reporting
for
everyone
has
always
been
a
requirement
under
the
rules
that
we
have
currently
have,
we
haven't
necessarily
been
enforcing
that
with
the
tribes
and
insular
areas.
So
that's
something
that's
going
on
now,
making
them
report
now.
But
most
definitely
under
the
rule,
no
way
around
it.
They
would
have
to
report
back.

Under
recordkeeping
and
reporting,
we
are
going
to
start
requiring
that
a
bidders
list
be
maintained
for
both
financial
systems
recipients
as
well
as
those
receiving
loans.

MR.
WINSTON:
As
you
know,
the
U.
S.
DOT
has
a
requirement
that
recipients
maintain
bidding
lists
of
all
bidders
and
subcontractors
for
a
bid
on
a
DOT
contract.
It
is
the
worst
nightmare
that
the
DOT
ever
created.
It
is
not
working.
I
would
suggest
that
you
take
a
very
close
look
at
this
and
be
specific.
If
you
are
going
to
try
to
collect
information
on
the
apparent
low
bidders,
that's
pretty
easy.
The
other
thing
is
that
it
is
so
broad,
when
you
say
suppliers,
you
don't
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say
first
tier
subcontractors,
first
tier
suppliers.

That
list
could
go
down
three
or
four
different
steps.

Are
you
going
to
try
to
collect
information
on
that?
I
would
suggest
before
you
follow
this
particular
requirement
that
you
check
with
the
U.
S.
DOT
and
see
what
they
are
doing
to
address
it,
because
it
is
a
nightmare.

MS.
PATRICK:
Currently,
the
actual
provisions
of
the
information
we
want
to
capture
is
not
defined.
And
that
is
something
we
have
received
comments
on
at
some
other
hearings
that
we
need
to
be
specific,
including
the
number
of
tiers.
And
so
that's
something
we
know
that
we
do
have
to
clarify.
So
you
had
something
else.

MR.
WINSTON:
I
am
currently
drafting
language
to
go
to
our
prosecutor's
attorney's
office
that
will
require
the
information
be
submitted
as
part
of
the
bid.

In
other
words,
it
will
be
a
matter
of
responsiveness.

We
know
that
we're
going
to
run
into
a
lot
of
problems,

because
if
we
make
it
a
matter
of
responsiveness
in
a
bid
that
fails
to
submit
the
list,
the
bid
is
not
responsive.
That's
going
to
create
a
lot
of
problems.

So
take
another
look
as
to
whether
or
not
you
will
require
recipients
to
make
it
a
matter
of
responsiveness.

MS.
PATRICK:
I'm
sure
from
our
perspective,
we
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had
not
really
thought
about
what
you
were
saying
in
terms
of
the
responsiveness
issue.
In
terms
of
the
bidders
list,
I
don't
think
we
envisioned
it
going
that
many
tiers.
So
that
is
something
we
will
definitely
look
at.

The
language
that
you
are
currently
drafting
if
you
would
like
to
submit
that
along
with
your
comments
to
us,
that
would
be
very
helpful.
And
before
I
get
to
that
part
of
the
­­
comments,
question.

MS.
FLOREZ:
Just
a
follow
up.
At
the
bid
stage,

all
the
subcontractors
aren't
identified
by
the
prime.

And
I
am
not
sure
that
that
language­­
it
would
be
difficult
to
enforce
that,
because
many
contract
teams
aren't
put
together
backstage.

MR.
KLON:
I
just
want
to
add
my
two
cents
as
well.
I
think
you
should
most
definitely
that
add
a
component
to
that.
I
am
using
a
similar
procedure
and
we
are
finding
that
the
low
bidder,
when
you
ask
them
to
list
all
their
bids
on
that
bid
sheet,
it's
usually
not
who
they
would
have
picked
originally.
And
that's
helping
the
participation
be
a
lot
because
you
have
actually
the
bid
in
front
of
you,
and
then
you
see
how
they
chose
it.

MS.
PATRICK:
The
purpose
of
our
bidders
list
is
a
little
bit
different.
Our
purpose
is
to
help
the
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recipient
develop
as
accurate
a
database
as
possible.

And
so
looking
at
that
is
our
purpose.
I
am
not
sure
exactly
what
form
it
is
going
to
end
up
taking.
I
am
getting
some
good
information
here.
So
it
is
much
appreciated.

The
last
part
before
I
get
to
how
you
make
the
comments
is
waivers.
We're
going
to
have
a
provision
that
would
allow
the
director
to
grant
waivers
to
any
requirements
that
is
not
based
on
statute
or
executive
order.
What
that
means
is
we're
going
to
for
the
first
time
have
a
waiver
provision
where
the
OSDBU
director
could
waive
negotiations.
Reporting
and
fair
share
objectives
and
that
sort
of
thing,
she
can't
waive.
And
the
fair
share
objectives
are
never
going
to
go
away.

That's
just­­
but
for
other
provisions
that
are
there,

she
has
the
authority
to,
he
or
she,
whoever
it
is,

OSDBU
whoever
it
may
be
at
the
time,
will
have
the
authority
to
grant
that.

MS.
FLOREZ:
Does
EPA
in
the
future
have
goals
for
LSRVs?

MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
goals
for
them?
Not
that
I
know
of.

MR.
SUTTON:
Under
the
federal
government
direct
procurement
now,
hub
zones
have
taken
over.

MS.
FLOREZ:
Will
you
require
local
areas
to
make
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efforts
to
do
business
with
hub
zone
firms?

MR.
SUTTON:
No.

MS.
PATRICK:
Currently
DBE,
that
name
encompasses
women
owned,
minority
owned,
as
well
as
labor
surplus
area
firms.
So
the
extent
you
help
this
program
accomplish
that,
they
could
be
defined
as
a
DBE.

MS.
MCPEAK:
Right
now
we
require
our
recipients
to
try
to
utilize
small
business
in
rural
areas.
Is
that
still
going
to
be
a
component
of
this
category?

MS.
PATRICK:
That
is
another
category
that
is
now
under
the
DBE
umbrella.
There's
a
provision
that
talks
about
the
name
change
and
sort
of
what
that
is
going
to
include.
I
am
only
seeing
that
it's
including
labor
surplus
area
firms
as
well
as
small
business
in
rural
areas.

No
more
hands
raised.
I
can
tell
you
how
to
submit
your
comments.

MR.
MCKUSE:
How
about
veteran
owned
or
disabled
veteran
owned?

MS.
PATRICK:
That
is
a
category
that
EPA
will
certify.
Service
veteran
owned
businesses
will
be
certified
by
the
EPA.
We
will
be
the
only
entity
that
certifies
in
that
category.
So
that
is
one
of
those
areas
that
we
certify
as
a
matter
of
first
impression.

MS.
FLOREZ:
In
the
transition
period,
two
years,

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what
EPA
certification
should
we
look
forward
to
or
should
we
attempt
to
gain
at
this
point?

MS.
PATRICK:
Right
now,
say
you
are
who
you
want
to
be.
That's
what
we
have
to
currently
operate
under,

our
current
regulations
as
they
stand,
which
accepts
self­
certification.
So
you
are
whoever
you
say
you
are.

That's
the
standard
right
now.

MS.
GENERRO:
The
proper
classification
would
be
EPA
certified.
So
you
would
want
an
EPA
certified
disadvantaged
business,
right?

MS.
PATRICK:
After
the
rule
is
in
place,
right,

you
would
have
an
EPA
certified
disadvantage
business.

MS.
GENERRO:
Is
that
going
to
be
across
the
United
States,
or
are
you
going
to
have
separate
certifications
for
different
regions?

MS.
PATRICK:
No.
Every
region
is
doing
the
same
thing.

MS.
GENERRO:
Will
certifications
be
performed
by
headquarters?

MS.
PATRICK:
Yes.
We
are
looking
at
perhaps
having
the
initial
package
submitted
to
the
region,
but
it
will
be
headquarters
doing
the
certification.

MR.
MCKUSE:
You
mentioned
certification,
I
believe,
of
service
disabled
veterans.
Is
that
what
you
said?

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MS.
PATRICK:
Yes.

MR.
MCKUSE:
Is
that
addressed
in
the
CFR
here?

MS.
PATRICK:
Yes,
it
is.

MR.
MCKUSE:
Will
it
actually
be
a
certification
like
now
we
get
a
DBE
thing?
Will
we
be
getting
an
actual
certification
number
like
the
DOT?

MS.
PATRICK:
It
will
be
an
actual
certification
after
the
rule
is
in
place.
Right
now,
whatever
you
say.

MR.
MCKUSE:
Would
there
be
an
outside
component
to
it
as
there
is
for
DBE?
Usually
you
are
getting
for
the
DOT,
someone
comes
out,
and
looks
at
your
operation
and
makes
sure
you
are
who
you
say
you
are.

MS.
PATRICK:
We
do
not
have
the
capacity
to
do
every
single
one.
On
a
case
by
case
basis,
particularly
where
we
are
the
ones
doing
the
certifying,
not
accepting
one
from
DOT
or
SBA,
occasionally
we'll
go
out
and
do
spot
checks.

Okay.
How
do
you
submit
your
comments,
because
I
know
you
all
have
a
burning
desire
to
get
on
the
computer
and
give
us
some.
Not
only
are
we
taking
the
transcripts
back
and
pulling
comments
off
of
that,

there's
also
other
ways
you
can
submit
your
comments.

Back
on
the
table
there
was
a
hand
out
that
says
Q
and
As.
I
think
the
cover
sheet
may
have
a
letter
on
it
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about
the
program.
On
that
Q
and
A
sheet,
it
lists
all
the
many
ways
you
could
submit
your
comments.
You
could
do
them
on
line,
e­
mail,
fax,
writing
them
in,
mailing
them
in,
and
you
could
do
them
via
the
web
site
that
we
have
set
up.
There
are
a
number
of
ways
to
get
your
comments
in.
The
comment
period
closes
January
20th,

2004.
Once
we
received
all
the
comments,
it
is
my
lovely
job
to
go
through
them
all,
classify
them,

categorize
them
by
topic,
and
then
to
develop
a
response
to
those
comments
and
a
disposition
and
how
we're
going
to
include
them
in
the
process.

I
must
let
you
know
that
your
comments
are
not
taken
lightly.
Many
of
the
previous
comments
we
have
had
resulted
in
a
number
of
changes
in
the
current
documents
you
see
there.
Many
of
them.
So
we
take
our
comments
very
seriously.
We
got
some
really
good
ideas
from
a
lot
of
previous
sessions
that
we
have
had
already
and
a
lot
of
things
we
know
we
didn't
draft
exactly
correctly
that
we
know
we
have
to
go
back
and
fix.
Any
comments
you
have,
please
submit
them.

MR.
MCKUSE:
Do
you
mean
to
have
participation
goals
for
disabled
service
veterans?
You
say
you
will
be
certifying
firms.
Will
there
be
a
goal
requirement
included
in
the
DBE
requirement?

MS.
PATRICK:
It
will
be
included
in
the
DBE
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requirement.
The
service
disabled
veteran
category
is
one
of
those
entities
that's
considered
a
DBE.
And
so
once
that
goal
is
negotiated,
any
of
the
contractors
you
use
from
that
universe
would
be
counted
towards
your
goal.
So
there
is
no
specific
goal
for
the
use
of
service
disabled
veterans,
no
specific
goal
for
the
use
of
women
or
minorities.
It's
all
one
goal.

MS.
FLOREZ:
The
regional
goal
for
Washington
state,
I
think
I
heard
you
say
25
percent,
maybe
as
an
example.
What
is
the
EPA
DBE
goal
for
this
region?

MS.
MCPEAK:
I
can
answer
that.
Basically
what
it
is
is
all
of
the
recipients
within
the
state
agencies,

they
accept
the
goals
that
were
established
by
the
Office
of
Minority
and
Women
Businesses,
which
is
overseeing
all
of
the
state
agencies
within
Washington
I
don't
know
exactly
what
the
goals
are
right
at
this
moment.
But
they
negotiate
goals
for
construction,

services,
equipment,
and
supplies.
And
so
they
have
a
goal
for
MBEs
and
they
have
a
goal
for
WBEs.
So
all
of
the
state
agencies
accept
those
goals
that
are
done
by
that
one
agency.
Then
each
one
of
our
recipients
which
is
in
the
state
of
Washington,
they
have
the
choice.
We
give
them
the
choice
when
we
put
in
their
goals.
We
give
them
the
goals
of
the
state.
And
then
we
tell
them
that
they
can
either
accept
the
goals
of
the
state
or
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they
can
negotiate
their
own
goals.
So
that
like
University
of
Washington,
for
example,
could
decide
to
negotiate
their
own
goals.
King
County
could
decide
to
negotiate
if
they
want
to,
or
they
have
the
choice
of
accepting
the
goals
that
are
established
for
all
of
the
state
agencies
within
Washington.
Oregon
has
the
Office
of
Small
and
Emerging
Businesses.
And
they
set
goals
also.
And
each
one
of
the
state
agencies
within
the
state
of
Oregon,
they
each
develop
their
own
goals.

So
it
kind
of
all
depends.
The
state
agencies
within
Idaho,
they
have
negotiated
goals
for
each
one
of
their
own
departments.
So
it
kind
of
all
depends.
It
is
up
to
the
agencies,
whoever
the
recipient
of
the
grant
is
to
decide
if
they
want
to
accept
state
goals,

if
they
want
to
negotiate
their
own
goals,
or
if
they
want
to
take
on
the
goals
of
another
state
agency.
So
we
do
give
them
all
that
opportunity.

MR.
WINSTON:
Ten
and
six.
They
have
ten
and
six
for
construction.
And
I
think
a
little
bit
over
for
architects
and
engineers.
There's
about
four
different
categories.
All
you
have
to
do
is
call
the
Office
of
Women
and
Minority
Business
Enterprise.

MS.
FLOREZ:
When
you
negotiate
these
goals
with
your
recipients,
are
they
published
on
your
web
site?

MS.
MCPEAK:
Yes.
We
have
our
own
internal
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Street,
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320,
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Washington
47
database,
and
we
have
those
goals
listed.
I
don't
think
that
list
is
available
to
the
general
public
right
now.

But
we
could
tell
you
what
the
goals
are
if
you
call,

because
we
can
give
you
that
information.
It
is
not
private
information
as
to
what
has
been
negotiated.

MS.
FLOREZ:
So
after
this
goes
into
effect,
will
it
be
standard,
or
still
anybody
can
do
anything
they
want?
Anybody
who
gets
a
contract
or
a
grant
­­
as
she
said
now,
the
numerous
organizations
can
do
different
things.
Like
King
County
can
do
what
they
want.

MS.
PATRICK:
It
is
not
necessarily
what
they
want
to
do.
They
can
still
individually
negotiate
goals,
but
those
goals
have
to
be
based
on
something.
They
have
to
be
based
on
the
availability
standard.
It
has
to
be
based
on
what's
available
in
that
particular
geographic
area.
So
it
is
not
an
arbitrary
type
of
number.

MR.
SUTTON:
As
an
example,
the
grant
recipient
might
feel
that
ten
and
six
is
too
low
or
too
high.
And
they
would
submit
evidence
to
show
that
that
goal
should
be
different.

MS.
MCPEAK:
Like
with
the
State
of
Washington,

the
one
state
agency
that
negotiates
goals,
they
do
a
disparity
study
quite
often.
So
they
set
the
goals
for
the
other
state
agencies
based
on
that
disparity
study.

Most
of
the
other
state
agencies
just
accept
their
goals
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within
Washington.
Because,
you
know,
they
have
that
agreement
with
that
office.
So
it
is
based
on
a
disparity
study.
And
you
have
to
have
the
goals
based
on
either
an
availability
analysis
or
based
on
a
disparity
study,
one
or
the
other.
And
to
show,
you
know,
what
are
the
total
range
of
businesses
that
are
available
to
that
you
can
buy
all
this
stuff
from.
You
know,
so
it
has
to
be
based
on
the
universe.

MS.
GENERRO:
Recommendation.
It
is
recommended
that
the
EPA
maintain
a
database
with
all
of
its
financial
instruments
and
what
has
been
negotiated
as
the
goal
for
that
project
with
contact
information
so
small
business
owners
can
access
that
and
determine
who's
in
their
state
and
what
their
goal
is.

MS.
FLOREZ:
Question.
Right
now,
in
the
state
of
Washington,
not
on
the
EPA
side
but
overall,
is
anyone
monitoring
anything
that's
being
done
in
the
state
of
Washington?
I
know
goals
have
been
set.
The
governor
has
stated
that
the
his
director
will
do
certain
things.

But
it
is
once
again
left
up
to
that
director
to
do
it.

And
if
no
one
is
monitoring,
it
is
not
going
to
be
done.

Is
there
anyone
presently
­­
what
I
am
hearing,
are
you
all
going
to
monitor
this?
I
don't
think
in
the
state
of
Washington
presently,
no
monitoring
has
been
done,

because
it
is
not
required.
Just
something
else
to
do
Seattle
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and
not
enough
people
to
do
it.

MS.
PATRICK:
I
can't
speak
for
the
State
of
Washington,
I
don't
think.

MR.
SUTTON:
The
state
of
Washington
has
voluntary
goals.
And
he's
correct
that
they
are
narrowly
monitored.
They
don't
have
any
authority.

UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
Good
morning.
I
would
like
to
encourage
the
agency
to
set
goals
that
are
contract
specific.
I
think
it
is
highly
inappropriate
for
the
agency
to
solicit
the
number
of
certified
firms
from
the
Office
of
Women
and
Minority.
And
let's
say
for
example,
that
there
are
800
firms
that
are
certified
as
a
MBE/
WBE.
From
the
statistical
analysis,
it
is
determined
that
we
should
be
able
to
establish
a
ten
percent
goal.
That's
highly
inappropriate
for
several
contracts.
For
example,
if
we
have
an
EPA
contract
that
has
the
scope
of
work
would
be
to
remove
and
haul
waste
materials,
based
on
the
fact
that
there
are
probably
500
certified
trucking
firms,
that
goal
for
that
specific
contract
should
be
20
percent.
It
should
represent
the
actually
number
of
businesses
certified
to
do
that
work
as
opposed
to
the
way
that
the
goals
are
established
right
now.
And
I
would
like
for
the
EPA
to
take
the
goal
one
step
further
and
to
address
contract
specific
goals.

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MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

MS.
MCPEAK:
Well,
now,
the
goals
for
contracts
are
different
than
the
goals
we're
talking
about
here.

What
we
have
been
talking
about
is
the
goals
that
recipients
of
EPA
grants
would
establish.
That's
not
the
same
as
the
goal
for
our
direct
procurement.
We
have
different
goals
for
direct
procurements
than
EPA
does
for
hiring
contractors.
And
also
when
we
hire
a
private
contractor,
then
we
set
goals
which
are
different
than
what
I
am
talking
about
with
the
recipients'
goals.
So
it's
two
different
areas
where
one
is
direct
procurement,
and
one
is
through
grants
to
a
recipient
who
then
hires
contractors
or
buys
things.

So
there's
two
different
goals,
and
our
own
internal
goals
are
different.

MS.
FLOREZ:
What
I
would
like
to
point
out,

internally,
you
may
have
established
the
goal
with
the
intent
that
the
exercise
be
taken
further,
the
way
you
have
described
it.
It
seems
that
because
within
our
own
state,
budget
cuts,
lack
of
personnel,
they
will
simply
take
the
EPA's
overall
goal
and
not
take
it
the
step
further
that
you
have
recommended
that
it
go
that
step
further.

MR.
SUTTON:
I
think
in
some
cases,
we
made
efforts
to
take
it
down
at
least
one
step
from
the
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overall
goal.

MS.
FLOREZ:
It
is
just
not
consistent.
So
there's
more
opportunity
for
better
matches,
the
availability
of
small
DBEs
in
the
area.

MR.
KLON:
Will
the
EPA­­
will
we
be
required
to
get
EPA's
approval
when
we
have
contract
specific
goals?

In
other
words,
if
we
have
a
five
million
dollar
contract,
and
we
get
ready
to
set
goals
of
three
and
four,
will
we
have
to
go
through
Marie's
office
to
get
approval
before
we
can
advertise
that
particular
contract?

MS.
PATRICK:
For
your
specific
individual
contracting
processes
or
if
the
State
of
Washington
has
its
own
goal
they
want
to
put
in
that
contract,
we
don't
have
too
much
to
do
that.
That's
the
State
of
Washington.
That
doesn't
mean
that
our
goal
is
to
replace.
If
we
negotiated
one,
and
that's
the
goal
we
have
in
place,
you
have
to
still
meet
our
goal.
If
I
hear
you
correctly,
you're
saying
the
State
of
Washington
may
have
its
own
number
that
it
wants
to
insert
or
whatever.
As
long
as
our
goal
is
met,
how
you
go
about
doing
that
goal,
I
don't
want
to
be
that
open,

but
I
just
think
they
are
sort
of
apples
and
oranges.

And
we
can't
say
if
Washington
has
a
goal
that's
less
than
ours,
as
long
in
the
process
of
using
that
grant
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money,
you
still
have
to
meet
EPA's
goal.

MS.
MCPEAK:
What
I
was
going
to
say
was
when
we
award
you
a
grant,
goals
are
put
into
that
particular
grant.
Then
it's
up
to
you
whatever
goals
you
want
to
put
in
your
own
contracts.
That
is
your
decision
to
do
that.
You
are
to
try
to
meet
the
goals
that
are
in
your
grant
agreement.
But
how
you
go
about
doing
that
is
up
to
you.
So
you
could
have
some
projects
that
have
higher
goals
than
other
projects.
If
you
knew
there
were
a
lot
of
suppliers
­­
say
you
needed
a
whole
bunch
of
hauling.
And
you
knew
there
was
a
whole
bunch
of
haulers
out
there
that
were
DBEs,
you
might
want
to
put
higher
goals
on
that
particular
one
for
part
of
the
contract.
But
that's
up
to
you.
We
just
hope
that
you
try
to
meet
the
goals
that
are
in
your
grant
agreement
when
we
give
you
the
money.
But
how
you
do
that
internally
is
up
to
you.

MS.
FLOREZ:
Are
these
goals
aspirational?
Is
that
what
I
am
hearing?

MS.
PATRICK:
We
don't
want
to
say
that.
It
is
strongly
encouraged
that
the
goals
are
met.
That's
what
I
am
going
to
say.

MS.
GENERRO:
Just
to
clarify.
The
certification
that
will
eventually
come,
we
hold
both
for
the
direct
and
for
the
grant.

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MS.
PATRICK:
The
certifications
we're
talking
about
are
for
the
grant
program.

MS.
GENERRO:
So
you
will
have
two
certifications,

one
for
direct
purchase
and
one
for
grants.

MR.
SUTTON:
So
for
the
direct,
those
are
negotiated
with
SBA.
It
is
only
for
the
grant
program.

Let's
put
it
this
way.
If
you
have
been
certified
under
the
direct
program,
that
would
be
acceptable
under
the
indirect
program
and
the
grant
program.
Let's
say
you
were
certified
as
a
DBE
under
EPA's
program,
but
not
certified
by
SBA
as
a
disadvantaged
business,
you
might
not
meet
the
federal
certification.
You
would
meet
the
EPA
certification,
but
not
necessarily
the
federal.
We
would
accept
the
federal.
But
right
now,
there's
no
reciprocity
that
anyone
would
accept
ours.

MS.
PATRICK:
The
two
programs
are
looked
at
as
completely
separate.
They
are
totally
a
hundred
percent
separate.
The
direct
procurement
program
is
directly
based
on
SBA
negotiated
goals.
We
talked
about
that
for
the
agency
because
SBA
is
the
one
who
creates
the
goal
for
different
agencies.
So
SBA
is
saying,
okay,
EPA,

this
is
what
your
goal
is
on
the
direct
procurement
side
of
the
house.
It's
almost
the
relationship
we
have
with
our
recipients,
SBA
has
with
the
agency.
So
the
agencies
we're
talking
about
that
on
that
side
are
going
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to
be
SBA
certified
businesses.
So
someone
on
that
side
of
the
house
doing
direct
procurement
with
the
EPA,

that's
fantastic.
You
have
SBA
certification,
8(
a),

whatever,
great.
Let's
say
you
step
over
and
say,
I
am
going
to
do
this
contract
over
here
with
the
State
of
Washington.
That
contract
is
being
funded
by
EPA
grant
money.
That's
when
this
program
we're
talking
about,

that
rule,
that
kicks
in.
And
we're
going
to
require
that
you
be
certified
or
have
EPA
certification.
As
a
part
of
the
certification
process,
if
you
have
been
on
this
side
of
the
house,
and
you
have
been
working
as
a
direct
contractor
and
you
have
that
certification,
we'll
accept
that
and
in
turn
give
you
an
EPA
certification
that's
good
under
our
indirect
program
only.
But
that
particular
certification
would
only
be
good
under
EPA's
indirect
procurement
program.

MS.
FLOREZ:
Really
the
rationale
is
to
broaden
the
base
of
participants
in
the
program
as
opposed
to
what
SBA
has
currently?

MS.
PATRICK:
Right.

MS.
FLOREZ:
I
am
going
to
ask
a
question
I
asked
before.
I
am
looking
for
a
baby
tooth
here.
In
order
to
put
teeth
in
your
grant
recipients,
they
come
back
a
second
time
for
a
grant,
is
there
any
way
you
can
put
a
point
value,
two,
three,
four,
five
points,
again
a
baby
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tooth,
yes,
they
have
met
their
goals.
You
get
two
extra
points
if
you
exceeded
your
goals,
whatever,
that
vests
those
grant
recipients
in
the
program.
They
have
no
other
vested
interest
at
this
point,
just
good
will
and
our
aspirations
to
meet
a
goal.
I
know
we're
stepping
into
a
legality
here.
I
am
looking
for
a
baby
tooth.

MS.
PATRICK:
You
have
a
very
good
idea.
Any
grants
over
75
thousand
dollars
have
to
be
compete,
and
now
there's
competition
for
the
recipients,
that's
something
we
haven't
thought
about
that
before,
in
terms
of
asking
that
to
be
part
of
the
criteria.

MR.
SUTTON:
It's
very
interesting,
because
we
do
something
similar
on
the
direct
procurement
side.
We
keep
records
on
the
past
performance,
and
meeting
small
business
goals
is
one
of
the
things
we
look
at.
So
you
have
a
very
good
recommendation.

UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
Is
there
going
to
be
a
phone
list
or
e­
mail
source
for
people
that
got
here
late
or
were
unable
to
be
here
that
we
can
ask
questions
to
kind
of
once
I
have
done
my
due
diligence
on
that,
I
can
ask
some
questions
that's
burning
inside?

MS.
PATRICK:
Both
suggestions
and
questions
can
be
submitted
along
with
that
process,
on
that
process
we
have
with
the
Q
and
As.
We'll
also
accept
questions
and
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suggestions.
However,
if
you
just
got
a
burning
question,
before
you
make
your
comment,
you
can
reach
me.
And
my
number
is
on
the
back
of
the
business
card
on
the
back
table.
The
front
of
the
card
says
Jeanette.

I'm
the
point
of
the
contact
for
the
rule.
You
can
call
me
directly,
202­
564­
5386.
Or
also
by
e­
mail,
I
love
e­
mail.
E­
mail
is
great.
And
I
do
answer
my
e­
mail.
I
and
do
answer
the
phone.
So
you
are
going
to
get
a
human
most
of
the
time.

MR.
SUTTON:
I
am
also
going
to
pass
around
Marie's
cards.

MS.
PATRICK:
Some
of
your
questions,
Marie
is
a
fantastic
resource.
If
you
dial
the
number
on
the
front
of
the
card,
that's
our
main
office
number.
They
can
still
direct
you
to
me.
Any
other
questions,
comments?

Okay.
There
being
none,
I
don't
have
anything
else
I
need
to
say.
I
thank
all
of
you
for
coming.
We
have
got
some
great
suggestions
out
of
this.
I
look
forward
to
seeing
your
comments
in
particular.
Thank
you
so
much
for
coming.

(
Proceedings
concluded.)

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C
E
R
T
I
F
I
C
A
T
E
State
of
Washington
)

)
Ss.

County
of
King
)

I,
the
undersigned
Certified
Court
Reporter
and
an
Officer
of
the
Court
under
my
commission
as
a
Notary
Public
for
the
State
of
Washington,
hereby
certify
that
the
foregoing
Public
Hearing
was
taken
before
me
on
November
13,

and
transcribed
under
my
direction;

That
the
transcript
of
the
Hearing
is
a
full,

true,
and
correct
transcript
to
the
best
of
my
ability;
that
I
am
neither
attorney
for,
nor
a
relative
or
employee
of,

any
of
the
parties
to
the
action
or
any
attorney
or
counsel
employed
by
the
parties
hereto,
nor
financially
interested
in
its
outcome.

IN
WITNESS
WHEREOF,
I
have
hereunto
set
my
hand
and
seal
this
date,
November
24,
2003:

_________________________

Yvonne
A.
Gillette
NOTARY
PUBLIC
in
and
for
the
State
of
Washington,

residing
at
Renton.
Commission
expires
6/
9/
2006.

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BILLING
MEMO
Copy
Room
Initials_________
Yvonne
A.
Gillette
Taken:
November
13,
2003
PROMISED
BY:

_________________________________________________________

WITNESS:
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Hearing
PAGES:
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CAPTION:
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SPECIAL
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